View Poll Results: Who is the best vote?

Voters
56. You may not vote on this poll
  • Jeb Bush

    2 3.57%
  • Ben Carson

    1 1.79%
  • Chris Christie

    0 0%
  • Ted Cruz

    4 7.14%
  • Carly Fiorina

    1 1.79%
  • Jim Gilmore

    0 0%
  • Lindsey Graham

    0 0%
  • Mike Huckabee

    1 1.79%
  • Bobby Jindal

    1 1.79%
  • John Kasich

    0 0%
  • George Pataki

    0 0%
  • Rand Paul

    1 1.79%
  • Marco Rubio

    0 0%
  • Rick Santorum

    0 0%
  • Donald Trump

    13 23.21%
  • Hillary Clinton

    7 12.50%
  • Martin OMalley

    1 1.79%
  • Bernie Sanders

    24 42.86%
  • Other - Independent

    0 0%
  • Other - Green

    2 3.57%
  • Other - Libertarian

    2 3.57%
  • Other - Other

    0 0%
  • Suck it

    11 19.64%
  • I made an extra option

    2 3.57%
Multiple Choice Poll.
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Thread: 2016 US Election

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    @inumbra, Trump doesn't respect law and order. He constantly tries to get special treatment for himself, regardless of any laws, like any narcissist. He calls for law and order because that noise activates his authoritarian supporters, not because he believes in it. He has been both a Democrat and a Republican, but always an opportunist who serves himself first.
    yeah. but that doesn't mean he'd oppose imposing strict rules and restrictions of freedom on the rest of us. it doesn't apply to *him* and anyone else he wouldn't want it to apply to as pertains to him. not sure about the rest of us...

    also @Adam Strange, i'll look at your links. so even though my reply was prompt, it's not that i am disregarding your post.

    "The Authoritarians" was written about GW Bush, but his crew of nation-wreckers is back and their history of pandering to peoples fears to appear as their only saviors (Donald Trump: "Only I can save you") have spawned Donald Trump's nomination, and even many of these Republicans are horrified at what their practices have produced.
    this is in line with my vague and ignorant impressions, however. i think that really trump's appearance as chaotic, changing what he says all the time, impulsive speech, crazy rants, sometimes utterly absurd statements, etc. can throw one off the scent. i don't know... it's just he sometimes reminds me of the tea party... so yeah, i might expect an authoritarian even if he is capricious and chaotic as an individual.

    although this led me to seek out this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/...-trump/482004/
    Last edited by marooned; 08-02-2016 at 07:53 PM.

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    Personally I'd be most interested in seeing a conversation about whether voting Clinton is a necessity, like the one @Kim and @anndelise had awhile back.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    Personally I'd be most interested in seeing a conversation about whether voting Clinton is a necessity, like the one @Kim and @anndelise had awhile back.
    It is a necessity to protect the most vulnerable and not allow an unstable narcissistic person have that much control. I have more to say and will dig up a really interesting article on HRC when I have a bit more time. But yes, I am terrified of a Trump presidency.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    yeah. but that doesn't mean he'd oppose imposing strict rules and restrictions of freedom on the rest of us. it doesn't apply to *him* and anyone else he wouldn't want it to apply to as pertains to him. not sure about the rest of us...

    also @Adam Strange, i'll look at your links. so even though my reply was prompt, it's not that i am disregarding your post.
    That "Authoritarians" article is long, but very worth reading. It is even worth skimming.

    I'm trying to parse your sentence above, and I'm assuming you meant Trump wouldn't impose restrictions on the rest of us. (If you meant something else, I apologize.) You can try to guess who the new laws will be applied to, but that is a dangerous game. If you allow the rule of law to have exceptions for "emergencies", you get something like this:

    "First they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Socialist.
    Then they came for the Trade Unionists, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Trade Unionist.
    Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak out—
    Because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for me—and there was no one left to speak for me."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I'm trying to parse your sentence above, and I'm assuming you meant Trump wouldn't impose restrictions on the rest of us.
    no, adam. my whole line of posts has been that i am concerned that he *will* impose strict restrictions on the rest of us.

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    http://nypost.com/2016/08/02/donald-...-purple-heart/

    Donald Trump, under fire for his attacks on a Gold Star family that lost a son in Iraq, received a Purple Heart on Tuesday.

    “A man came up to me and he handed me his Purple Heart,” Trump said to start a campaign rally Tuesday in Ashbury, Virginia.
    “I always wanted to get the Purple Heart. This was much easier, but I tell you it was such an honor.”

    The man, who briefly came up on stage and was identified as Lt. Col. Louis Dorfman,told NBC News that the heart was a replica, though Trump claimed the veteran told him, “That’s my real Purple Heart. I have such confidence in you.”

    The GOP presidential nominee has come under criticism for his attacks on the Gold Star family of a fallen Muslim US Army captain, whose father spoke at last week’s Democratic convention to denounce Trump’s comments on immigration.
    The unconventional Trump also showed he’s not a typical, baby-kissing politician.

    SEE ALSO

    Trump 'keeps proving' he's unfit to be president: Obama

    When a baby started crying, Trump at first said, “Don’t worry about that baby, I love babies. … I hear that baby crying. I like it.”

    But minutes later, an annoyed Trump turned again toward the baby and said, “Actually I was only kidding. You can get the baby out of here. … I think she really believed me that I love having a baby crying while I’m speaking.”

    Trump also used Tuesday’s rally at a local high school to say he believes he’ll spend $100 million in his effort to become president.

    “I put up a lot of money to fund my own campaign,” he said. “I think I’m into this for over over $60 million now. … I’ll probably be in for $100 by the time I finish. Think of it: $100 million cash … and no tax deduction.”

    Trump also leveled plenty of attacks at his rival, Hillary Clinton, and the press.

    “She’s got a bad temperament. She’s got a temperament of a loser,” he said.

    “We’re running against a rigged press. We’re running against dishonest people,”
    Trump said. “It’s so unfair.”


    Last edited by Aylen; 08-02-2016 at 08:42 PM.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Trump is probably evil as well as being a clown, but somehow I sense the possibility he is slightly less evil, since how could it be worse than Hillary?
    What makes her evil? You're saying that she represents an absolute evil that nobody can surpass.
    The fact that the media is so gaga in love with her and is scare-mongering about Trump makes me think Trump is maybe less evil.
    Again, why? The only reason Trump gets so much attention is because of the gibberish that comes out of his mouth. There's no provable connection between these events.

    I hope you're aware that Trump advocated in a speech for Russian hackers (after the DNC conspiracy) to illegally infiltrate and release state e-mails containing classified government information. That's borderline treason.

    Also, you should again be aware that in an interview he appeared to not be aware that the Russian government had already annexed Crimea. In general, he appears to have no idea of global events, hastily talking over any exposition that he doesn't know what's happening in the world.

    I may not care for Clinton, but she is at least an experienced politician that has at least a basic knowledge of current events. Trump simply is not qualified to be President.

    See, didn't even have to attack his character.

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    no, adam. my whole line of posts has been that i am concerned that he *will* impose strict restrictions on the rest of us.
    OK, I'm sorry I misunderstood what you said.
    And I share your concerns about how Trump would treat the rule of law if he were in a position to affect it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    I would never vote for those Clinton creeps to be back in the White House. Bill is bad, Hillary is worse. Pure evil. No way. Trump is probably evil as well as being a clown, but somehow I sense the possibility he is slightly less evil, since how could it be worse than Hillary? So I'm going with that. The fact that the media is so gaga in love with her and is scare-mongering about Trump makes me think Trump is maybe less evil. Also Trump appears not be be an insider like Hillary, and being a political insider is a huge problem IMO, but, if elected he will probably become an evil insider like the rest of them if he already isn't already. We really have no choice, as usual. May the least-worst candidate win.
    I'm sorry but I had to post this in response. Of course I don't believe in an antichrist in the biblical sense, anymore, but the connections in this link are both very humorous and scary (not in a antichrist sense) when you realize a lot of them are "facts mixed with humor.

    Is Donald Trump the Anti-Christ?

    Is Donald Trump the prophesied Beast of Revelation? According to the Bible, the Antichrist will be a charismatic celebrity, a "big talker" and a "smooth talker." He will convince people that he has the solution to every problem. He will be a dealmaker and a master negotiator. He will claim to know how to defend Israel and create lasting peace in the Middle East. He will be an intimidator and a militant lover of power. He will exalt and magnify himself and claim to be the "only Savior." Sound like anyone you know? The number 666 is amajor sign of the Antichrist. As revealed and explained on this page, the number 666 turns up over and over again in regard to Donald Trump and his family.




    The demagogue is one who preaches doctrines he knows to be untrue to men he knows to be idiots.―H. L. Menken


    The Most Disturbing Things about Donald Trump

    Perhaps the most disturbing thing about Donald Trump (and there are many things to be disturbed about) is his claim to be the "only one" who can save Americans, the "only one" who can save the Pope and Rome, and the "only one" who can save the world. Trump claims to be the nation’s Savior. He recently told a crowd: “I’m gonna take care of everybody. I will give you everything. I will give you what you’ve been looking for, for fifty years. I’m the Only One.” This has become an anthem: Trump is the Savior of the World, the Only Hope of the World, the Only One, the Messiah.
    Trump recently said that Saudi Arabia should be allowed to have nukes. But he also claimed there was "very profound" information that the Saudis were involved in the 9-11 attacks, referring to a 9-11 Commission report that was classified at the time. He obviously had inside information because 28 pages of the report were later declassified and high-ranking Saudis, including Prince Bandar, were implicated. Trump would ban Muslims from entering the United States for security purposes, but not his rich Muslim friends. However, the richest Muslims include the Saudi royal family. Trump has also said that he will be "neutral" on Israel. Saudi Arabia does not have diplomatic relations with Israel, maintaining a hard-line position. The Bible prophesies that the Antichrist will pretend to offer world peace, only to betray Israel in the end. The attempted military coup in Turkey is another reason not to encourage Saudi Arabia to obtain nukes. Do we really want unstable Middle Eastern states to have WMDs? Even if Trump is not the Antichrist and doesn't have evil intentions, he appears to lack judgement and the ability to think clearly and rationally.

    Trump has said several times that he would order U.S. military personnel to perform illegal acts; for instance, to track down and deliberately murder women and children related to terrorists. Pressed on whether American soldiers would obey such heinous orders, Trump replied: “They’re not gonna refuse me. Believe me.” ****** once persuaded German soldiers to torture and murder women and children. We now call the results the Holocaust. It is chilling to hear a man one step from the American presidency who doesn't know that it is the ultimate evil to murder innocent and defenseless women and children.

    Trump seldom talks about American democracy, the Constitution, the rule of law, pluralism, diversity, the Founding Fathers, the separation of powers, the democratic process, freedom, justice, compassion or human rights. Instead, he talks of “strength” and “winning,” always in relation to himself. What really matters to Trump is not what happens to us, but that Trump "wins" and gets to brag about it. Jesus Christ humbled himself and always put others first, washing the feet of his disciples to illuminate the correct path. Trump glorifies himself, always putting himself first. It is impossible to imagine Trump kneeling to wash the grubby feet of his inferiors: he wants them to wash and kiss his feet (and his ass). In that sense, at least, Trump truly is the polar opposite of Jesus Christ. There have never been two human beings more different than Christ and Trump. To believe in one is to reject the other. And yet many people who claim to be Christians are planning to vote for Trump. When the Bible talks about the very elect being deceived by the Antichrist, is it talking about American Christians?


    Bible Verses about the Antichrist that Sound like Donald Trump

    Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. (1 John 2:22) ... Trump claims to be the only Savior and denies the need to ask God for forgiveness!

    The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise its authority for forty-two months. (Revelation 13:5) ... Trump utters proud words and blasphemes the heart of the Christian religion.

    He will show no regard for the gods of his ancestors or for the one desired by women, nor will he regard any god, but will exalt himself above them all. (Daniel 11:37) ... Trump claims only he can save Christians from ISIS, not God.

    The ten horns are ten kings who shall arise from this kingdom. And another shall rise after them; he shall be different from the first ones, and shall subdue three kings. (Daniel 7:24) ... Trump is obviously different from other rulers.

    Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. (1 John 2:18) ... Trump is the greatest blasphemer so far.

    And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. (Revelation 13:3) ... Trump's botched scalp surgery could be the Bible's head wound.

    Let no one deceive you by any means; for that day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshipped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. (2 Thessalonians 2:3-4) ... Trump is his own God and his only God.

    And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, And it waxed great, even to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and of the stars to the ground, and stamped upon them. (Daniel 8:9-10) ... A trump or trumpet is a "little horn," so perhaps the Bible is saying that the Antichrist will literally be called "Trump."


    Pastor Rick Joyner drew praise from Sarah Palin for promoting what she describes as the “golden wrecking ball” theory of Trump support among conservative Christians. It turns out that many Christians suspect that The Donald may be the biblically foretold harbinger of the Apocalypse, but will vote for him anyway. Joyner admits that many evangelical Christians have grave concerns about Trump’s character, morality, sincerity and understanding of the issues they care about most, such as abortion and traditional marriage. An even more grave concern is the possibility that Trump may be Beelzebub, the Lord of the Flies, in the flesh. And yet Joyner still urges "mature" Christians to vote for Trump! The Bible says that in the last days even the elect will be deceived by the Antichrist. Will the "mark of the Beast" be the votes they cast, which declare them not to be followers of Christ, but of his exact opposite, the Antichrist?

    http://www.thehypertexts.com/Donald%...rist%20666.htm

    So yeah, not very funny when you take out the religious stuff and just look at the facts. Yet, I still do not see him as an "evil" person by nature. I think he has some psychological problems and there has to be safeguards against voting unstable people into office. Other countries had no choice in leadership, but we do. If Trump wins it says a lot more about the the people who would vote a reality star into office over an experienced politician.

    This is not a game. He can't go around yelling "you're fired!" to other world leaders. There are very high stakes involved and those who are ignorant about politics do not realize what the world has to lose if the majority makes the wrong choice. That is the reality. I am sure you are aware that the pope has made it clear where he stands on the issues that Trump supports. I actually looked into it a bit last night. The catholics, I personally, know are voting Hillary, primarily because Trump put himself above the pope.

    I feel like I am just an observer in all this because I can't vote so maybe I am lucky that I do not have to make this kind of choice. I imagine it is harder to make this choice based on religious issues. I do not envy you, if you do vote. This is the first time I have ever wished to be a citizen just so I could vote and I have lived in the US for quite a few years. It isn't about wanting to be a patriot or perform any duty for me (it is for my mom). My reasons for wishing i could vote are global in nature.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    Possibly bipolar with narc traits according to Dr Drew. I wonder if we have ever had a bipolar president before. I am sure quite a few had narc traits but bipolar.


    Donald Trump’s opponents have been wondering what psychological disorders might explain the Republican presidential nominee’s erratic behavior — but Dr. Drew Pinsky is more curious about why his supporters are willing to overlook those warning signs.

    The physician and media personality appeared Monday night on CNN, where he told Don Lemon that Trump does not fit the stringent legal definition for insanity — but he does show signs of multiple mental illnesses.

    “There’s two definitions of sanity, one is legal definition, and that is somebody who is so out of it they don’t know the difference between right and wrong,” Pinsky told CNN’s Don Lemon. “That is a very high standard for insanity, (and) very few people meet that standard. When you’re legally insane, you’re really not functioning. Clinically, medically, usually when we talk about insanity, we mean psychotic, hearing voices, hallucinations.”

    He told Lemon that Trump did not fit either the legal or clinical definition of insane, and then he discussed the candidate’s apparent narcissism.

    “People want to label him with a narcissistic personality disorder, and that is a pretty tough, tough thing to do at a distance,” Pinsky said. “But let me just talk to you, narcissism generally can be a good thing. If you’re a fighter pilot, we want you to be narcissist, not to have fear in extreme circumstances. Most political leaders have some degree of narcissism, what motivates them to go into these areas. We’ve done research on this, (and) it bears that out.”

    Pinsky disagreed with HBO host John Oliver’s assessment that Trump was a sociopath, saying the real estate developer and reality TV host appeared to maintain close relationships with his children.

    “It is unfair because sociopaths are usually tied up with really, serious problems with criminal behavior, but, you know, you can be manipulative, can be narcissistic and still do okay in life,” Pinsky said. “But, again, your relationships usually have extreme pathology. (It’s) very difficult to raise healthy kids, very difficult to have sustained marriages if you’re deep into narcissism.”

    However, he said Trump showed enough troubling signs of mental instability to raise concerns about his fitness for office.
    “The question, though, is, are some of the reckless qualities that everyone is getting so disturbed about on the campaign going to be translated into office should he get elected?” Pinsky said. “That’s a pretty hard thing to predict. I don’t know if this is just somebody playing politics, or is this somebody who really can’t contain their impulses?”

    Pinsky wondered if Trump might show signs of bipolar disorder, which is characterized by unusual shifts in mood, energy and activity levels, along with an inability to carry out daily functions.

    “When I hear people that are impulsive with their speech, I worry about hypomania and bipolar types of conditions,” Pinsky said. “As he says, he has boundless energy. Again, a little hypomania can be great. There are a lot of hypomanic businessmen that get a ton done. Containing your speech, be thoughtful, take a beat before you say something, for those people it can be very, very difficult.”

    Pinsky said he was more interested in Trump’s supporters than the candidate himself.
    “What’s more fascinating to me, Don, is not him but his supporters that seem to not be concerned about any of this,” Pinsky said. “That, to me, is fascinating. As always, what is up with us?”

    His strongest supporters seem not to care about Trump’s outrageous insults against a Gold Star family — or anyone else — and even the candidate himself seems impervious to shame.

    “Let’s just assume that most people that would choose to be in a very high-profile race like this would have narcissistic tendencies, and there’s something called sort of narcissistic injury, then narcissistic rage,” Pinsky said. “If you injure — if you really shame somebody — they tend to be sort of teflon when it comes to shame. If you shame them, they can react with extreme aggression and extreme rage. So this seems to be that kind of a psychological process.”

    Pinksy said he wondered why that trait seemed to appeal to so many voters.

    “I have a radio program on KABC, (and) what I keep hearing from listeners there is enough is enough,” Pinsky said. “If somebody is going to fight back, they’re going to say, whatever, and I don’t care what he says as long as it’s extreme and pushing back and he’s putting my country and my job first, I’ll get behind him whatever he says. There’s disregard for the content.”

    He said Trump’s candidacy was symptomatic of broader cultural tendencies.

    “Why we watch reality television?” said Pinsky, himself a reality TV star. “Why do we do this? Let’s examine that.”

    ​I might post this in the other thread too.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    OK, I'm sorry I misunderstood what you said.
    And I share your concerns about how Trump would treat the rule of law if he were in a position to affect it.
    no need to apologize! i haven't really presented anything clear in general and probably look like i am all over the place. i can think of reasons aside from my wording itself that would make how i might feel about trump quite unclear.

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    You were clear.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    You were clear.
    As the crystal ball @Sol mentioned.

    *yes I do own one sol but for decorative purposes only. It is beautifully clear.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    no need to apologize! i haven't really presented anything clear in general and probably look like i am all over the place. i can think of reasons aside from my wording itself that would make how i might feel about trump quite unclear.
    You are very articulate. I understand how others might feel like current trends in US politics has highlighted the external chaos that other parts of the world have always experienced. It is easy for me to get overwhelmed and feel like I am not expressing what I really want to say, clearly. It makes me just want to disappear into my cave and pretend it isn't as bad as I might feel. I just can't though. :/

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    I'm sorry but I had to post this in response. Of course I don't believe in an antichrist in the biblical sense, anymore, but the connections in this link are both very humorous and scary (not in a antichrist sense) when you realize a lot of them are "facts mixed with humor.

    So yeah, not very funny when you take out the religious stuff and just look at the facts. Yet, I still do not see him as an "evil" person by nature. I think he has some psychological problems and there has to be safeguards against voting unstable people into office. Other countries had no choice in leadership, but we do. If Trump wins it says a lot more about the the people who would vote a reality star into office over an experienced politician.

    This is not a game. He can't go around yelling "you're fired!" to other world leaders. There are very high stakes involved and those who are ignorant about politics do not realize what the world has to lose if the majority makes the wrong choice. That is the reality. I am sure you are aware that the pope has made it clear where he stands on the issues that Trump supports. I actually looked into it a bit last night. The Catholics, I personally, know are voting Hillary, primarily because Trump put himself above the pope.

    I feel like I am just an observer in all this because I can't vote so maybe I am lucky that I do not have to make this kind of choice. I imagine it is harder to make this choice based on religious issues. I do not envy you, if you do vote. This is the first time I have ever wished to be a citizen just so I could vote and I have lived in the US for quite a few years. It isn't about wanting to be a patriot or perform any duty for me (it is for my mom). My reasons for wishing i could vote are global in nature.
    I can vote but I don't know its of any use. I think we will get whatever the powers that be want us to get, and those powers are not good, as are neither of the candidates, who could both make a great cases for being a 666 personified - and also so many others of the powers that be these days whose god is clearly not our God.

    American Catholics voting pro-abortion, no surprise at all (but anyway no candidate will be pro-life once in office no matter what they say to get in). The smoke of Satan has entered the church (besides everywhere else on earth).

    Yet Jesus promised the Holy Spirit would be with His church until the end of time and everything that Jesus says is the complete truth and every word He said will stand til the end of time. "The grass withers, the flowers fade, but the word of the Lord endures forever."

    So, yes, the Holy Spirit is with the Church of Jesus and with all the schisms of that Church that love the Lord, and with all who call on His name, and always will be. Jesus did not promise us that His Church would be kept spotless, and lo, we can all see its not. Jesus is our only hope. And not the government, which you have to admit is what we as a nation deserve...

    And the times are not going to get any better...
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    well, also over time i have went from pondering trump as a possibility to going back to being very wary of him, so my "position" regarding trump as expressed in the shoutbox and posts has been all over the place. it's never really been a position though. i started out thinking trump was a dangerous crazy person and narcissist and then took several steps back to consider potential benefits of trump as a possibly unusual candidate and now am going back to expressing things about him being a dangerous crazy person. the closer it gets to november, the more i seem to be going back to the beginning impressions. with my remarkable lack of "research" this is funny... it's like my attempts to wander out of the liberal way in which i normally view things was a little pointless (not even half-assed). so now i'm left with more confusion, but just i guess what has always been my gut feeling about trump (that he is dangerous). that he is unqualified has also been clear all along, but i also think that some people could actually begin unqualified and improve and perhaps if that person isn't a typical politician (isn't even really a politician), that they could have something new and useful to offer. but i still can't see any way to fit trump into any idealist notion i might have... i think he's nuts and not in a good way.

    if trump really is a bad case of NPD there may not be any method to the madness at all. he may just go along with every narcissistic whim he has for the sole purpose of feeding his ego... in which case everything he does if actually in office as president would be fairly scary... he would remain a wild card even as president. you never know what crazy thing he will say or do, or when... that would obviously be terrible.

    if i look at what he has done - he's a greedy business man who cheats and manages money poorly? ok, i trust him with the economy then? oh, and after a career of selfishness i believe he actually cares about helping the average citizen? (how much benefit of the doubt am i supposed to give him? why would i expect him to do something entirely different and not greedy and selfish as president given his whole life is about being greedy and selfish?)

    i don't get the warm and fuzzies listening to him talk about how much he wants to toughen up on immigration (build a freaking wall blocking off mexico, seriously), how unaccepting he kind of seems to be of other cultures or religions, etc. oh, and how he will say complimentary things about some of the world's nasty dictators.

    i already know he's an asshole just from listening to him talk basically so no points for character or ethics or values...

    anyway, although some tiny part of me still thinks there could be some hidden benefit, i can't really find something in the real world to justify that tiny little feeling that seems to grow ever tinier as time passes.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    How is she evil?
    Its easy to see what is evil in her past actions and that she is a liar like the rest of them. If you don't think she has evil in her then you are not reading what her opponents say. Only her proponents. So its a fictional figure you support.

    But I do not want to waste my time listing what is wrong with her -- how depressing -- or with any of the other politicians because, like I said, its ALL bad. I want to focus on what is good and right and true and beautiful, none of which are Hillary. Or Trump.

    Hillary is pretending to be interested in lowering abortion, as is Trump, but whoever gets in office will see to it that there is an increase instead. I am pro-life if you didn't guess, and any other view of the taking the lives of innocent unborn is a lie. I know a lot of people are deceived, and I am sorry for all of you, but the reality is that we are a country with the blood of innocents on our hands, having slaughtered tens or hundreds of millions - enough for a new nation. We are lawless in America, and we spread our errors around the world. And its not the mom-in-crisis that is to blame as much as the rest of us who shove her in that direction - we who are comfortably not in crisis, who promote it, and promote ourselves as being "kinder" people who want it to be allowed. Or, we do not like it, but do nothing to stop it. I guess the latter is me and my hope is in God's mercy, and also His miraculous graces to change me someday to more than what I am.

    The elections are just a reminder to me of this which is the saddest thing to Heaven. I just feel ashamed. Clinton and Trump are just what we deserve.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Its easy to see what is evil in her past actions and that she is a liar like the rest of them. If you don't think she has evil in her then you are not reading what her opponents say. Only her proponents. So its a fictional figure you support.

    But I do not want to waste my time listing what is wrong with her -- how depressing -- or with any of the other politicians because, like I said, its ALL bad. I want to focus on what is good and right and true and beautiful, none of which are Hillary. Or Trump.

    Hillary is pretending to be interested in lowering abortion, as is Trump, but whoever gets in office will see to it that there is an increase instead. I am pro-life if you didn't guess, and any other view of the taking the lives of innocent unborn is a lie. I know a lot of people are deceived, and I am sorry for all of you, but the reality is that we are a country with the blood of innocents on our hands, having slaughtered tens or hundreds of millions - enough for a new nation. We are lawless in America, and we spread our errors around the world. And its not the mom-in-crisis that is to blame as much as the rest of us who shove her in that direction - we who are comfortably not in crisis, who promote it, and promote ourselves as being "kinder" people who want it to be allowed. Or, we do not like it, but do nothing to stop it. I guess the latter is me and my hope is in God's mercy, and also His miraculous graces to change me someday to more than what I am.

    The elections are just a reminder to me of this which is the saddest thing to Heaven. I just feel ashamed. Clinton and Trump are just what we deserve.
    I would consider myself pretty knowledgeable when it comes to politics and saying Hillary Clinton is evil is being totally removed from reality. She has a long career as a politician and has made many mistakes, but she has stuck her neck out for children and women and military families and other groups and has suffered abuse and vilification. And no vitriol she has encountered has ever made her stop. Maybe she has done deals with Wall Street, but I don't care because I don't think the system can be destroyed from the ground up. It has to be changed from within and she is likely to continue sensible politics.

    But since you are so eager to call someone who has improved the lives of many people through hard work "evil," what have you done for other people? How are you improving people's lives? Because frankly, all you ever talk about is yourself and the people around you. Do you care about women dying of cancer because they can't afford treatment or military families who lose their loved ones in war and have to struggle financially or about children who can't afford school lunches or the health of low-income children or the first responders of 9/11 or the countless other people whose lives are better because she fought for them?

    She is not perfect - she is flawed like the rest of us and has made bad decisions, but to call her evil when you yourself do nothing for others?

    I also do not understand how anyone can say there is no or little difference between Trump and Clinton. It blows my mind.
    Last edited by Kim; 08-03-2016 at 03:55 AM.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    ...what have you done for other people? How are you improving people's lives? Because frankly, all you ever talk about is yourself and the people around you. ... but to call her evil when you yourself do nothing for others? It's so easy to condemn abortion, especially when you do nothing to improve the lives of people, which would also help prevent unwanted pregnancies.
    You don't know me so who are you to accuse and judge? Yes, I care about the people around me a lot. You seem to imply here that caring for the people who are in your life and come in your life is not charity. I'm just not with you there, Kim. Of the people that I consider my heroes, pretty much none are rich and famous celebrities with public image managers, but instead most are simple everyday people who get little notice living ordinary lives caring for those in their lives and those who pass through it. I know a lot of heroes like that whom I admire and aspire to be like. They are all around me.

    I see you are caught up in this political race and think its of consequence. I don't. I think its all about big gov't watching our reactions to the ridiculous debates they start and we are going to end up with exactly who they want and our opinions don't matter. I don't want either of those two. But I see you have an admiration for Hillary. I'm so sorry. I do not share your esteem. She is frightening to me.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  20. #140
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    You don't know me so who are you to accuse and judge? Yes, I care about the people around me a lot. You seem to imply here that caring for the people who are in your life and come in your life is not charity. I'm just not with you there, Kim. Of the people that I consider my heroes, pretty much none are rich and famous celebrities with public image managers, but instead most are simple everyday people who get little notice living ordinary lives caring for those in their lives and those who pass through it. I know a lot of heroes like that whom I admire and aspire to be like. They are all around me.

    I see you are caught up in this political race and think its of consequence. I don't. I think its all about big gov't watching our reactions to the ridiculous debates they start and we are going to end up with exactly who they want and our opinions don't matter. I don't want either of those two. But I see you have an admiration for Hillary. I'm so sorry. I do not share your esteem. She is frightening to me.

    It is of consequence for a lot of people you obviously don't care about. You can think about anybody what you want, but to call someone "evil" is a pretty significant insult and I don't see you present any information that would justify it.

    Edited to add: I have no issue with people not liking Clinton and her policies. It's the term "evil" and the total vilification of her character that I take issue with.

    And one more thing: I care about people around me and help them where I can. But I don't inconvenience myself and open myself up to hate and ridicule and being called "evil" like Hillary Clinton has. You are calling someone evil who has done a lot of good and that bothers me.
    Last edited by Kim; 08-03-2016 at 02:08 PM.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    *yes I do own one sol but for decorative purposes only. It is beautifully clear.
    It's clear, aylen, that you may use it for the guessing purpose too. That would be better use for your abbilities than resonable thinking about politics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    It's clear, aylen, that you may use it for the guessing purpose too. That would be better use for your abbilities than resonable thinking about politics.
    Take it from someone who knows quite a bit about politics, Aylen's thinking is really quite reasonable and thoughtful. Haven't seen that from you yet.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    It's clear, aylen, that you may use it for the guessing purpose too. That would be better use for your abbilities than resonable thinking about politics.
    People of my "type" should play with crystal balls and not hurt their brains thinking about politics... That is what we have logical types for? Did I get that right?

    Politics don't interest me much. Never have but the idea that people with obvious psychological problems can be elected into office without any psychological testing to determine if they are of sound mind, judgment, and temperamentally fit, just doesn't make sense. They should be drug tested too, frequently, just as they would pass laws to drug and psychologically test people applying for other positions.

    Should we subject candidates for President to psychiatric testing?


    According to Frederick Burkle, "today's tyrants" exhibit a range of narcissistic and antisocial traits.


    BY
    MICHAEL BROOKS


    We can s******, frown or fret over the rise of Donald Trump, but what if we could, in fact, prevent it? According to Harvard University’s Frederick Burkle, there is a way.


    Burkle contends that we should be using psychiatric diagnosis as a tool to assess the suitability of candidates for office, “as both a global security and strategic priority”. In a paper published in the journal Disaster Medicine and Public Health Preparedness, he suggests there is a “unique and poorly understood subset of the population who are driven to seek the ultimate opportunity to control, dictate, and live out their fantasies of power on the world scene”. While there are detailed profiles of the psychopathology of the likes of ****** and Stalin, “there is little or nothing available on today’s tyrants”.


    Burkle’s two main concerns are antisocial personality disorder (ASPD) and narcissistic personality disorder (NPD). A leader with ASPD thrives on continuing conflict and will never seek peace. North Korea’s Kim Jong-un is on Burkle’s list of leaders who demonstrate significant antisocial behaviours. Vladimir Putin, he points out, also displays “worrisome” traits.


    It’s not just politicians. Burkle, a professor of public health who has worked as a psychiatrist, an adviser to the WHO and interim minister of health in Iraq, also notes some of our “most prolific, charming, greedy and yet admired business and technology tycoons” display extreme narcissism. Trump can’t have been far from his mind.


    In the past few decades, psychologists have developed assessment criteria that can reliably identify those with ASPD and NPD. We know that extreme cases can put lives in danger – we expect our governments to put measures in place to ensure that those affected are not a menace to society – making it almost ironic that those governments could be led by the most extreme cases of all. That these people are not named as having ASPD is “both concerning and curious”, Burkle says.


    A second piece of research has shown how great their influence can be on “normal” human beings. Narcissistic leaders surround themselves with underlings who act on their orders. And who are these quislings? All of us, potentially. A neuroscience study carried out by researchers at University College London and the Brussels Free University has shown why some of us follow distasteful orders without feelings of responsibility.


    We have known for decades how easy it is to coerce or cajole people into immoral or unethical acts. The new study takes things further, showing that neural processing in these situations more closely resembles that of an observer than an active individual, creating a vastly diminished sense of responsibility. Claims that it “wasn’t my fault” are not self-serving lies, but reflect a genuine subjective experience.


    http://www.newstatesman.com/2016-03-10

    Don't worry. My crystal ball is very clear. I just woke up though so I am still foggy.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    This is a very interesting piece about Hillary Clinton (a thorough look at many of the things she is accused of): http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/6...have-ever-seen
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    "I learned in 1962 that you can't do without the support of conservatives. But I learned also you can't win with just conservatives." - Nixon

    Surely, surely Trump won't win.

    Right?
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by SongOfSapphire View Post
    "I learned in 1962 that you can't do without the support of conservatives. But I learned also you can't win with just conservatives." - Nixon

    Surely, surely Trump won't win.

    Right?
    Maybe he should have added a woman to the ticket to really compete with Hillary? Someone like, say, Lindsay Lohan, or Miley Cyrus, to really highlight the insanity and how much Americans are willing to put up with from him in the hopes that he is going to be their saviour, build a wall of security and make them rich. His core would probably not even flinch. Seriously is this what they want their children to value...




    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung
     
    YWIMW

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    And one more thing: I care about people around me and help them where I can. But I don't inconvenience myself and open myself up to hate and ridicule and being called "evil" like Hillary Clinton has. You are calling someone evil who has done a lot of good and that bothers me.
    I am sure you are a person who cares about the people around her and helps when she can. I have not doubt about it.

    Well I have been thinking of how to briefly answer this last part of the statement, without getting into a political discussion which I fully intend to avoid. Its that I am avoiding, and not you. So I will explain the "evil" statement is simply that I feel she is evil, and that stems from primarily, among other things: the "Clinton body count" which cannot be a coincidence. Whitewater. I cannot forget my reaction to first reading this and that is that what had serious truth to it. I do not want to revisit the issue, unless those people come back from the dead and have something to say. So I knew then I would never vote for Hillary. Not only that blood, but the blood resulting from the sure fact that any judge that Hillary gets in is guaranteed to support increase in abortions. Abortion is a gravest of wrong, the taking of innocent lives, and for those of us not in crisis to support it is a graver wrong IMO, especially lawmakers and we are a country of shame because of those we elect and because we are willing to believe lies about right and wrong. So its a litmus test for me, and many, many others.

    Trump probably will do the same, as to judges, no matter what he says now, so I am not singing his praises because I don't trust any of the candidates put before us. Hillary just seems worse to me, in terms of evil.

    So either you have no knowledge on this, or you think that the body count and Whitewater are fabricated or untrue? As I am sure you would not support those things. You must think they really didn't happen? Well you must vote with your conscience as I am voting with mine. I do not want to get in an argument over it, honestly, which is why I was not going to say anything, except that you seem to desire an explanation for my saying that I feel she is evil, so out of respect I am giving it to you. Its those two things. However, I think the whole political scene is bad, and not worth my time. Personally I will decide sometime just before the election if I will vote or not and I am happy to stay out of the political dog fights and the media telling us how to think and feel... I just can't stomach it.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
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  28. #148
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    I am sure you are a person who cares about the people around her and helps when she can. I have not doubt about it.

    Well I have been thinking of how to briefly answer this last part of the statement, without getting into a political discussion which I fully intend to avoid. Its that I am avoiding, and not you. So I will explain the "evil" statement is simply that I feel she is evil, and that stems from primarily, among other things: the "Clinton body count" which cannot be a coincidence. Whitewater. I cannot forget my reaction to first reading this and that is that what had serious truth to it. I do not want to revisit the issue, unless those people come back from the dead and have something to say.
    She was never charged with anything.


    So I knew then I would never vote for Hillary. Not only that blood, but the blood resulting from the sure fact that any judge that Hillary gets in is guaranteed to support increase in abortions. Abortion is a gravest of wrong, the taking of innocent lives, and for those of us not in crisis to support it is a graver wrong IMO, especially lawmakers and we are a country of shame because of those we elect and because we are willing to believe lies about right and wrong. So its a litmus test for me, and many, many others.

    Trump probably will do the same, as to judges, no matter what he says now, so I am not singing his praises because I don't trust any of the candidates put before us. Hillary just seems worse to me, in terms of evil.

    So either you have no knowledge on this, or you think that the body count and Whitewater are fabricated or untrue? As I am sure you would not support those things. You must think they really didn't happen? Well you must vote with your conscience as I am voting with mine. I do not want to get in an argument over it, honestly, which is why I was not going to say anything, except that you seem to desire an explanation for my saying that I feel she is evil, so out of respect I am giving it to you. Its those two things. However, I think the whole political scene is bad, and not worth my time. Personally I will decide sometime just before the election if I will vote or not and I am happy to stay out of the political dog fights and the media telling us how to think and feel... I just can't stomach it.
    I am pro-choice (very much so), so I guess I am evil, too?
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I am pro-choice (very much so), so I guess I am evil, too?
    No just misguided.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


  30. #150
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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Its easy to see what is evil in her past actions and that she is a liar like the rest of them. If you don't think she has evil in her then you are not reading what her opponents say. Only her proponents. So its a fictional figure you support.

    But I do not want to waste my time listing what is wrong with her -- how depressing -- or with any of the other politicians because, like I said, its ALL bad. I want to focus on what is good and right and true and beautiful, none of which are Hillary. Or Trump.

    Hillary is pretending to be interested in lowering abortion, as is Trump, but whoever gets in office will see to it that there is an increase instead. I am pro-life if you didn't guess, and any other view of the taking the lives of innocent unborn is a lie. I know a lot of people are deceived, and I am sorry for all of you, but the reality is that we are a country with the blood of innocents on our hands, having slaughtered tens or hundreds of millions - enough for a new nation. We are lawless in America, and we spread our errors around the world. And its not the mom-in-crisis that is to blame as much as the rest of us who shove her in that direction - we who are comfortably not in crisis, who promote it, and promote ourselves as being "kinder" people who want it to be allowed. Or, we do not like it, but do nothing to stop it. I guess the latter is me and my hope is in God's mercy, and also His miraculous graces to change me someday to more than what I am.

    The elections are just a reminder to me of this which is the saddest thing to Heaven. I just feel ashamed. Clinton and Trump are just what we deserve.
    You were telling me only recently that your mother used to say that "if you don't have anything nice to say you should not say anything at all"...even though I was calling someone out for calling people evil that they didn't even know anything about (other than their presumed type).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    No just misguided.
    I fail to see why it would make her evil and me just misguided.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I fail to see why it would make her evil and me just misguided.
    Just assuming there's no "Kim body count".
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

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    This thread was interesting until a debate over Christianity overtook it

    I overheard some older people discussing whether it's Hillary Clinton or Obama who is the antichrist a few weeks ago. They were planning to vote for Trump. Because of course.

    More and more, I think there's something to the conspiracy theory about the Clintons putting Trump up to run so Hillary can win and the Republican party will be screwed for years to come. Win-win for them. If it is true, it's well played.
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Just assuming there's no "Kim body count".
    There is no "Hillary body count" either. She didn't kill anybody. I have the same view on abortion as she does, so she and I are equally evil.
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Of course! All conspiracy theories are totally ridiculous and laughable. The fact is, people are basically honest and forthright and fair, and unselfish to boot. And the more power they get, the more honest, and the less corrupt they become! Only the humblest, the most American-pie people run our country - fine folks whom on whom we can depend to be forthright and transparent, and to live by unselfish moral codes, and they are willing to live by them even to their own personal detriment. I feel so safe in their hands.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Quote Originally Posted by Eliza Thomason View Post
    Of course! All conspiracy theories are totally ridiculous and laughable. The fact is, people are basically honest and forthright and fair, and unselfish to boot. And the more power they get, the more honest, and the less corrupt they become! Only the humblest, the most American-pie people run our country - fine folks whom on whom we can depend to be forthright and transparent, and to live by unselfish moral codes, and they are willing to live by them even to their own personal detriment. I feel so safe in their hands.
    I have asked you why Hillary Clinton is evil and you have no answers except that she is evil because she is pro-choice (which I am, too) and you mention a "body count" which means nothing to me because she has not killed anyone. So as of now, you are just throwing out accusations of her being "evil" without backing them up. Unless her being pro-choice alone makes her evil, in which case I am evil, too. And most people I know.

    So perhaps don't resort to sarcasm and instead properly back up your accusations?
    “Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
    ― Anais Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    I have asked you why Hillary Clinton is evil and you have no answers except that she is evil because she is pro-choice (which I am, too) and you mention a "body count" which means nothing to me because she has not killed anyone. So as of now, you are just throwing out accusations of her being "evil" without backing them up. Unless her being pro-choice alone makes her evil, in which case I am evil, too. And most people I know.

    So perhaps don't resort to sarcasm and instead properly back up your accusations?
    Oh, sorry, I thought I already said. I was just stating my heartfelt opinion on the Clintons and on the voting situation, just of the sake of stating my view in this political opinion thread. But I do not want to discuss that woman, or any of the other candidates. If you are interested in what is said on the "Clinton body count" and Whitewater issue, its easy to find discussion of it online. But I don't want to spend any more time and thought at all on something that is not worthwhile and has no good in it as far as I am concerned. I respect that you have a different opinion on Clinton, though, and also that you subscribe to the popular culturally and politically correct view on the "good" of killing of unborn children. And I respect that you think these political discussions are worthwhile.
    "A man with a definite belief always appears bizarre, because he does not change with the world; he has climbed into a fixed star, and the earth whizzes below him like a zoetrope."
    ........ G. ........... K. ............... C ........ H ........ E ...... S ........ T ...... E ........ R ........ T ........ O ........ N ........


    "Having a clear faith, based on the creed of the Church, is often labeled today as fundamentalism... Whereas relativism, which is letting oneself be tossed and swept along
    by every wind of teaching, looks like the only
    attitude acceptable to today's standards."
    - Pope Benedict the XVI, "The Dictatorship of Relativism"

    .
    .
    .


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    Are you talking about this, @Eliza Thomason? Bc a lot of these are questionable at best. More info, w citations, might be interesting....


    There's this as well: http://www.snopes.com/politics/clintons/bodycount.asp
    "In theory there is no difference between theory and practice. In practice there is." - Yogi Berra

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