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Thread: Gamma Duality

  1. #281
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Aren't the ESIs here a bit too aggressive compared to...real life? Most ESI women I know seem to be pretty passive and concentrated on their own specific thing? They're also often fairly "simple" people?
    That has been my experience, too, @FDG. That vid that Told Ya posted above seemed more like comedy.

    I will say that I see the Aggressor in ESI's. It is more of a Wait-and-Advance-one-small-step-at-a-time aggression, though. They seem to do a lot of watching before making a small move. (Which is actually the approach I find to be best for me.) But they do make that move.

    The relationship dynamics are a result of the ESI's 3D Se (I clearly see the situation that I'm in right now, and I don't like it) and 2D Ni (I have a hard time predicting which is the best of multiple choices, so the heck with it, I'm gonna do something. But something small, so I don't risk much if I screw up.)
    vs.
    the LIE's 3D Ni (I have a really good idea of where each one of these options are going to lead) and 2D Se (but I feel I'm not entirely certain of the facts of the present situation).
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 12-30-2016 at 04:42 PM.

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    The extent of the aggression I see in the thread is an arm draped over a body or leaning in to initiate a kiss, which seems perfectly fine.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    They don't seem all that aggressive? Just like they're really into high fashion and snap their fingers rudely at waiters and travel in private jets.
    that's how you'd wish to be ain't it
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Well I always look at life as the chessboard. I know this has been used to describe thinkers but it works for me too so eff it. I look at life like that. But each piece is a part of myself, metaphorically speaking. The King and Queen are my brain and heart. The other pieces are my relations to other people.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Within View Post
    Love this, where is it from?
    the film Ferris Bueller's Day Off, I believe.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post


    *sighs at archaic gender notions of materialistic women and exploited men... who in fact finance the very system that drives the materialistic industry*

    Now for real. Nobody is shopping in Gamma and leaving the responsibility to another.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post


    You know, this may be the standard myth of LIE-ESI relationships, but I do work all the time, and I married a woman (SLI) who knew how to shop.

    She was well-put together and had a very well-decorated apartment. She had classic bronze and crystal Stiffel lamps, for God's sake, which, when I saw them, started me thinking that this might be the one. It didn't hurt that she was also smart, about my height, thin, and had auburn hair.
    When we married, I had nine months income in the bank, and she was in debt. She planned the wedding, which involved just the immediate family but still managed to put us both in debt. I already had a house, so when we got married, she put all my furniture on the front lawn to be hauled away, moved some of her stuff in, and said "We're shopping for furniture today." So yes, she shopped. To be honest, I don't mind if a woman spends money, as long as the place looks good, which I guess is my Si-PoLR. She did turn my bachelor quarters into a home. For years prior to my getting married, my refrigerator was used basically as a beer cooler.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 01-15-2017 at 04:07 PM.

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    My ESI girlfriend truly deeply dislikes spending any kind of money, except perhaps on travelling.

    Ofc she's also not american and in italy most kind of debt is still seen as extremely dangerous so w/e
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    My ESI girlfriend truly deeply dislikes spending any kind of money, except perhaps on travelling.

    Ofc she's also not american and in italy most kind of debt is still seen as extremely dangerous so w/e
    This is off topic, and I apologize for that, but I'll stop after this comment.
    In the States, debt is almost inevitable. If you want a house, you almost certainly will have to go into debt to buy it. Low interest rates have raised the "price" of capital assets so much that it is impossible to save enough money in a reasonable number of years of wage earning to buy anything. Low interest rates have also lowered the cost of borrowing so much that there is no incentive to become more productive, so wages have stagnated. (If you can pay off your business loans with just a few percent profit, you are not driven to find ways to increase the worker's productivity. If they are not productive, there is no reason to raise their wages. If they don't get raises, they can't buy more stuff, which makes everyone's sales stagnate, which disinclines anyone to invest in more productive equipment or methods. It is a vicious cycle.) Low interest rates raise the value of property and stocks and bonds for the rich, and are a disaster to anyone who works for a living, since their wages become frozen.

    There are only two ways to get ahead in this environment. One is to go into debt to purchase property with the least down payment possible and to ride up the increase in asset values. This assumes you can ride out the inevitable, temporary downturns. As soon as the asset's value increases enough for the bank to increase your borrowing limit, buy another asset for very little down. Rinse, repeat. If you choose a good asset (rental property in the best area, index funds with low fees), you can do pretty well over time. The plan is, increase your productive assets by going into as much debt as you can handle, increase both assets and debt as fast as you can, live off the asset's yield (or a job), and never pay off the debt. The rich will always take care of themselves, so invest in what they invest in.
    The second way is to get a job in finance managing some idiot's money. You charge a fee for your work, usually a percentage (5%) of the assets, and you get paid whether the market goes up or down. If it goes up, you may also get a fee for your genius. If it goes down, well, tough luck for your clients. Can't lose with that one. The problem is finding the idiots.

    Banks no longer loan money to people who want to start a business and merely have a good idea and a business plan. They will only loan if you have an asset that they can take. This is why it is important to buy property as soon as you can. After ten or more years, you will be able to borrow against the property at interest rates that are not usurious.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 01-16-2017 at 02:20 PM.

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    ESI - LIE


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    This reminded me of male ILI-Te with female SEE-Fi Duality.
    Though I could also see male SLI-Te and female IEE-Fi (SX) acting similarly.

    I haven't seen the movie, but I am assuming the guy in the movie is actually SLI and not ILI, while the girl is probably actually SEE.




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    I hate shopping. I avoid it and/or only buy used stuff because full price rarely seems worth it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    I hate shopping. I avoid it and/or only buy used stuff because full price rarely seems worth it.
    I once asked an ESI-Se if she spent a lot of time shopping, because she looked very well-put-together, and to my surprise, she said No. She evidently put very little time into shopping, which is very different from my SLI ex.

    I usually try to buy used things if "using" them doesn't actually use them up, like optical equipment, certain machines, or some kinds of furniture (which is usually much better-built than newer stuff) or appliances (gas stove with gas pilots, Maytag washer and dryer). For small items that wear out, I prefer to buy new. For clothes to wear around the house, I like to shop at a place I call the Fashion Barn, where they sell donated clothes and arrange shirts by color. I have gotten some really nice shirts and slacks there for $1.49 each. And if they don't fit or don't look that great, then I wear them while working under the car or in the garage or the yard. On the other hand, if I need a suit, dress shirt or shoes, I buy the nicest ones that I can afford.

    I used to buy cars when they were at least ten years old. They would often be really cheap and would still be good for a few more years (depending on the model), and I could usually work on them to fix whatever went wrong. But when I needed a reliable car and my time became more valuable than whatever money I might save by doing the work myself, I started buying new.

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    Not a big fan of shopping. I went through my rock collection phase and now there aren't any more that I really want, I got the ones I wanted and they were not expensive. Thrift stores work for clothes, you can find great stuff there, some of the stuff I have gotten there lasted longer than new clothes. And the clothes I buy outside of the thrift store are not expensive at all. The cosplays I get are inexpensive as well. I am going to cosplay female version Orlandu from Final Fantasy Tactics this year and I'm pretty sure I can find most of the material at a thrift store. When I buy my video games I usually get them during Steam sales and save money. Sometimes I still buy plush toys (online) but again, they are not expensive. I'm a pretty frugal person.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    This reminded me of male ILI-Te with female SEE-Fi Duality.
    Though I could also see male SLI-Te and female IEE-Fi (SX) acting similarly.

    I haven't seen the movie, but I am assuming the guy in the movie is actually SLI and not ILI, while the girl is probably actually SEE.




    She is not in the movie except this one tiny moment.

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    these are some of the least appealing examples of relationships i've ever seen. lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by paranoid View Post
    these are some of the least appealing examples of relationships i've ever seen. lol
    Actually I've spotted a rare gamma dual couple in the wild
    (on new years eve)

    And it looked like this:
    LIE and ESI

    gamma_dual.jpg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio View Post
    Actually I've spotted a rare gamma dual couple in the wild
    (on new years eve)

    And it looked like this:
    LIE and ESI

    gamma_dual.jpg
    i love this.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Horatio View Post
    Actually I've spotted a rare gamma dual couple in the wild
    (on new years eve)

    And it looked like this:
    LIE and ESI

    gamma_dual.jpg
    Yeah this one is realistic.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    ^ I cannot even tell who is supposed to be who in that pic.

    I don't find it characteristic of Gamma duality.
    It could be many other ITR pairings for that matter.
    More likely one of those where both people are introverts.
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    This is my experience of duality (aside from the messy bits):






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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    This is my experience of duality (aside from the messy bits):





    Hm, okay. What I find the most apparent about this set is the Sp/Sx-ness. I would have put this in the Sp/Sx thread.
    I cannot personally see a particular Gamma Duality pair here, but that's just me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cassandra View Post
    Hm, okay. What I find the most apparent about this set is the Sp/Sx-ness. I would have put this in the Sp/Sx thread.
    I cannot personally see a particular Gamma Duality pair here, but that's just me.
    ssok, I don't see Gamma in most of this thread of memes & gifs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    The extent of the aggression I see in the thread is an arm draped over a body or leaning in to initiate a kiss, which seems perfectly fine.
    I understand that although understated, a body lean and draping are "aggressive" and "forward" in context. So not being passive and not waiting for the man to initiate every "escalation" means aggressor? Any escalation or courtship initiatives where an aggressor would remain passive as a female and subvert to gender stereotypes, assuming she is not familiar with socionics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I will say that I see the Aggressor in ESI's. It is more of a Wait-and-Advance-one-small-step-at-a-time aggression, though. They seem to do a lot of watching before making a small move. (Which is actually the approach I find to be best for me.) But they do make that move.

    The relationship dynamics are a result of the ESI's 3D Se (I clearly see the situation that I'm in right now, and I don't like it) and 2D Ni (I have a hard time predicting which is the best of multiple choices, so the heck with it, I'm gonna do something. But something small, so I don't risk much if I screw up.)
    vs.
    the LIE's 3D Ni (I have a really good idea of where each one of these options are going to lead) and 2D Se (but I feel I'm not entirely certain of the facts of the present situation).
    I agree with your characterization of the functions as they relate to ESI making a move, but not how you react within this scenario? Te/Ni means sit and wait? Not patronizing you, genuinely interested. So you stay patient, wait and react? I struggle with this, letting them come to me, although I am not assuming you do in this case, and I will let you answer it.

    Dualization seems difficult assuming we just "hope" they get around to it eventually letting their guard down, and all the power seems with them since we are "chosen" in the Victim/Agg dynamic. Active/Reactive. LIE attracts ESI being themselves, and hope that eventually ESI will drop their walls and allow us in. It's all very delicate with so much nuance and I find my patience tested.....waiting. I get it though........lead Fi is a bitch of a wall to come down.


    Seems the aggressor has all the power in courtship, they decide as an Se ego, we are won have to be won over. I bridle at this power dynamic, but recognize this stubbornness is a part of "strength" or "pride" that a victim has in Gamma NTs and don't have a problem with the term "victim" because the name in incidental outside of the context of it's very accurate descriptions. Point is I am always pushing back and prodding and don't feel like I want to be powerless in courtship. Is this the dynamic, or is to be patient as an LIE? Dualiziation descriptions are very general

    I find ESI frustrating when they are plodding along slowly. So very very careful..........Fi and vulnerable first. Se and Aggressor second. I am very impatient. How do you stay patient?
    Last edited by hatesyardwork; 02-04-2017 at 05:21 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatesyardwork View Post
    I understand that although understated, a body lean and draping are "aggressive" and "forward" in context. So not being passive and not waiting for the man to initiate every "escalation" means aggressor? Any escalation or courtship initiatives where an aggressor would remain passive as a female and subvert to gender stereotypes, assuming she is not familiar with socionics?
    I think it's not nearly this straightforward easy to categorize in real life, and any type can escalate or not given the circumstances and personal idiosyncrasies. I was just confused by the posts saying they were too aggressive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    This is my experience of duality (aside from the messy bits):





    First gamma stuff in topic (except numbah 1 and 2). Final confirm.

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    Quote Originally Posted by blackburry View Post
    all of the above is what I do to my gamma NT bf. He cheers me up...a lot and gets me out of my head. (He actually sent the link of these memes to me and was like, "this is you." ).
    What a good guy. I always thought it's SF who save NT's from mental rut.


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    Quote Originally Posted by hatesyardwork View Post
    Seems the aggressor has all the power in courtship, they decide as an Se ego, we are won have to be won over. I bridle at this power dynamic, but recognize this stubbornness is a part of "strength" or "pride" that a victim has in Gamma NTs and don't have a problem with the term "victim" because the name in incidental outside of the context of it's very accurate descriptions. Point is I am always pushing back and prodding and don't feel like I want to be powerless in courtship. Is this the dynamic, or is to be patient as an LIE? Dualiziation descriptions are very general
    With all the ESIs I have dated (well, like, 3) I have been forward in starting the relationship. They may then have to keep it going, I lose motivation fast if I see no feedback/interest. (Whereas I know some SEEs who are extremely persistent)
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by davez View Post
    What a good guy. I always thought it's SF who save NT's from mental rut.


    Extra points for extra butt touching.
    &
    Honor points for low five'ing black humor and expressing relationship in minor scientific explanation.
    Actually mental ruts can be solved by either ILI or SEE. Mostly ILI need saving though since it's more often they get into [a rut.] SEE have no problem staying out of most ruts since they are so very sociable, compared to how an ILI can really hole up and need intervention practically.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    With all the ESIs I have dated (well, like, 3) I have been forward in starting the relationship. They may then have to keep it going, I lose motivation fast if I see no feedback/interest. (Whereas I know some SEEs who are extremely persistent)
    Thanks for this. I was very forward with her, gave her the "I want to fuck you" eye contact which I do when I decide to show a woman I want her and she about died. LOL Avoided me after that, very awkward around me and would not make eye contact. I use this tactic to show them I want it to be physical and I know then and there she in if she reciprocates. It's hit or miss. but it saves time so I can screen girls quickly. I feel good being bold and wondered if this was inconsistent which my dual role in courtship. I lose interest as well if I get no feedback from them. Thanks for your insight.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatesyardwork View Post
    Thanks for this. I was very forward with her, gave her the "I want to fuck you" eye contact which I do when I decide to show a woman I want her and she about died. LOL Avoided me after that, very awkward around me and would not make eye contact. I use this tactic to show them I want it to be physical and I know then and there she in if she reciprocates. It's hit or miss. but it saves time so I can screen girls quickly. I feel good being bold and wondered if this was inconsistent which my dual role in courtship. I lose interest as well if I get no feedback from them. Thanks for your insight.
    Seems a bit too forward for most people, you might creep them out unless they´re autistic, in my cases I just asked her out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatesyardwork View Post
    Thanks for this. I was very forward with her, gave her the "I want to fuck you" eye contact which I do when I decide to show a woman I want her and she about died. LOL Avoided me after that, very awkward around me and would not make eye contact. I use this tactic to show them I want it to be physical and I know then and there she in if she reciprocates. It's hit or miss. but it saves time so I can screen girls quickly. I feel good being bold and wondered if this was inconsistent which my dual role in courtship. I lose interest as well if I get no feedback from them. Thanks for your insight.
    Are you sure you are a Victim type?
    All of that sounds rather Aggressor-like.

    Sure, Gamma NTs are "Pseudo-Aggressors", but I have never seen or heard of a Gamma NT acting like that before.

    P.S: That behaviour reminds me of Beta STs in particular.
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    Back when I wasn't married, any kind of a LOOK from ANYONE was a "I have no clue what they are trying to say" which would make me back off entirely.
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    It''s eye contact........not like I pulled a Donald Trump.

    I believe I am a Ni ego, but I decided years ago to stop hiding my desire from women. Women want to know they are wanted and know that you desire them. What's the shame in showing it?

    LIE Ni................"impatient, tendency to hurry sexual interactions." Paraphrasing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Seems a bit too forward for most people, you might creep them out unless they´re autistic, in my cases I just asked her out.
    I ask them out depending on how they react to the eye contact. It's polarizing I know, but it's with girls who have shown interest in me, I just like to get to the point with women, makes it easier to escalate, because she knows you aren't fucking around. She knows you want her sexually. Let's them decide for themselves, and it costs me nothing.

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    ^ Maybe I am wrong, but I cannot shake off the feeling that what you just said there is much more typical of Beta ST behaviour, making me inclined to believe you could be LSI instead.

    And... "not like I pulled a Donald Trump", haha.
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    Quote Originally Posted by hatesyardwork View Post
    It''s eye contact........not like I pulled a Donald Trump.

    I believe I am a Ni ego, but I decided years ago to stop hiding my desire from women. Women want to know they are wanted and know that you desire them. What's the shame in showing it?

    LIE Ni................"impatient, tendency to hurry sexual interactions." Paraphrasing.
    All of that is true, I think; but in addition women also want to know you're tactful, discerning, in control of yourself, and hold them and yourself in high regard. Not saying you're guilty of transgressing any of those virtues, but I can envision a LIE being so direct it gives off a negative vibe, even though it meets your initial criteria maybe it goes beyond and has negative implications as well. I always tend to criticise LIE's in this regard, i.e.: being overkill, and I'm not saying this is definitely happening and that you're putting out a lizard man vibe, but I can say I have seen such things as a matter of personal experience.

    Its funny Trump comes up, because he takes this to 11, whereas LIEs, as a matter of degree, aren't that extreme, but they do suffer from overshooting the mark which is what produces the questionable vibe at issue


    "grab them by the pussy" is 8w7 in a nutshell, in a bad way

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