Aggressor Female with Victim Male
Indeed, it's so hard to run into a girl who both knows what she wants and goes for it in a rather direct manner. I blame the current culture, everyone expects the "extroverted" aspects to come from the male side. Meaning everyone expects the male to be either an aggressor or an infantile. Sadly, this means society looks down upon the "introvert" males who gladly fill the roles of Caretaker and Victim.Originally Posted by SisOfNight
It's not like the male had much choice in this department. People like what they like and nobody truly wants to *be* the "weird" kid in school, you just so happen to end up being the weird kid. It sucks yes but you also can't just stop being who you are. If that lands you on the wrong end of a mob intent on inflicting a swirly on you well, not much you can do short term. Long term? Well, let's just say that upper management filters for high I.Q and nerds tend to have that on lock.
... But you know there are introverted Aggressors (LSI & ESI) and Infantiles (EII & LII), as well as extroverted Caretakers (LSE & ESE) and Victims (LIE & EIE)?
The issue of the male being expected to approach the woman in the manner of an extrovert extends beyond Romance Styles.
Having said that, I can see an introverted Aggressor stepping into the stereotypically "initiator" role much easier than any other introvert.
True, it is a tad unfortunate that culture is not type related as far as I can tell. It's more pragmatic, more focused on outright survival and maximizing the efficiency of every individual over letting people be, well, themselves. It seeks conformity, seeks making everyone of a certain background the same in most areas. In the end it says, "If you are X you must do/be Y and if you disagree/are different then go be a hermit and forget about ever passing on your genes you rebel/invading scum!"
Nature has, for better or worse, put men in the position of being expected to be "on top" as it were. It's where most men seem to want to be given my experiences but that too I think is a cultural thing. The CEO gets the poon tang, the hobo doesn't. Nobody seems to realize that the CEO likes to go see a Dominatrix every weekend (LIE=typical CEO) but the cultural signals are firmly in place. Dominant men get laid, submissive ones don't. Hell, given what I've seen on the net it's even worse than that. The message is that dominant men get laid, submissive men not only don't get laid, they get cucked because she's seeing a dominant male on the side! Given that message, the signal is clear. Be dominant, or don't even think about playing the romance game. It's rather unfortunate as it is then also the reverse for the ladies. Be submissive, or don't even think about keeping him all to yourself. You have a gender role, fulfill it or go die in a fire despite any of your personal preferences. Such is culture.
Either way, many individuals will find themselves being the square peg being hammered into the round hole. Oh you can make it work, but that square peg will not come out the other end whole and healthy lemme tell ya. But hey, you can't spell culture without the word "Cult" if ya catch my meaning. Human nature, it's not a pretty sight.
With my ILI boyfriend our first REAL kiss went exactly like this and lasted a good five minutes. I just went for it, the timing was right, and he was being such a sweetheart. He later told me that he felt that time stopped during that kiss.
Aggressor Female with Victim Male
I'm just an effin ray of sunshine
I think you and I have touched on this before. A lot of guys are either intimidated or really confused by aggressor women. Tis the story of my life. Men say they want a go-getter woman who just says what she wants. My experience is, they really don't. It threatens their manhood or something. Unless they are victims, of course. Lovely, lovely victims, just waiting for instructions and tons of love from us. It's a beautiful thing. I still can't believe the lovely dance in communication I have with my ILI bf. I can be direct, he's not offended. I can tell him what I want or what I think he could to to accomplish something on his mind, and he's on it. But...somehow, even though he is very dedicated to meeting my needs, he doesn't come across as a beta mamas boy at all. Quite the opposite, actually.
I sent him text today...it said "I wanna brainstorm with you later about business ideas, we are both too awesome to spend our days working for other people"
And he said "Then brainstorm we shall do"
I mean come on! Thats love!
I'm just an effin ray of sunshine
As @SisOfNight has pointed out, there are levels of Victimhood, and they seem to be correlated with type. My present LSI GF says I'm too aggressive. (More aggressive, perhaps, than the EIE whom she is unconsciously expecting.) She actually says I'm not a Victim at all, but I do fit the Socionics description, in the sense that you have described above. The only exception to your description is that I don't wait for or want instructions. However, I really do need to have a woman who knows what she wants and asks for it. If she doesn't do that, I see her as being too passive to be interesting. I'm looking for a partner who thinks for herself, not a dead weight.I think you and I have touched on this before. A lot of guys are either intimidated or really confused by aggressor women. Tis the story of my life. Men say they want a go-getter woman who just says what she wants. My experience is, they really don't. It threatens their manhood or something. Unless they are victims, of course. Lovely, lovely victims, just waiting for instructions and tons of love from us. It's a beautiful thing. I still can't believe the lovely dance in communication I have with my ILI bf. I can be direct, he's not offended. I can tell him what I want or what I think he could to to accomplish something on his mind, and he's on it. But...somehow, even though he is very dedicated to meeting my needs, he doesn't come across as a beta mamas boy at all. Quite the opposite, actually.
I sent him text today...it said "I wanna brainstorm with you later about business ideas, we are both too awesome to spend our days working for other people"
And he said "Then brainstorm we shall do"
Good luck with the brainstorming, @HotSauce. ILI's can be terrific at financial management and detailed planning. They often have good intuitive insight into people's character, and while they can be really funny, their assessments sometimes tend toward the gloomy side. Also, because they are the "glass half empty" to your "glass half full", don't let them discourage you with reasons why things might not work. They will work, if you put enough effort into a venture that can pay off.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-23-2016 at 05:34 PM.
Thank you!
The ENTJ that I know closely is outwardly aggressive and I think he comes across as intimidating to most people...however, with his kids and family, I definitely see the victim thing. He is aggressive in life to ensure that he provides abundant resources so he can give his wife and daughters what they want when they ask for it, is my take on it. Especially with his wife.
And yes, my ILI is a bit gloomy - but my optimism tends to even things out and I always help him see the bright side when he gets too gloomy. Where I only see the positive, he only sees the negative, and together we end up with a greater understanding of things. He sees negatives that I never would have considered and that helps me make better decisions, and I seriously need that.
I'm just an effin ray of sunshine
This is just from my experience but my "masculinity" isn't based so much around being the "alpha" male who bosses everyone around but rather about being the man who gets shit done. A man who can't accomplish a given task (so long as it's feasible and reasonable for him to do) isn't really a man in my book. If his woman bosses him around and he's happy about that then that's his business. He isn't any less of a man because, while she may wear the pants, he gets shit done. Men get shit done, the queen may give out the orders, but it's the men who build the castle, do the fighting, and carve out the statues.I think you and I have touched on this before. A lot of guys are either intimidated or really confused by aggressor women. Tis the story of my life. Men say they want a go-getter woman who just says what she wants. My experience is, they really don't. It threatens their manhood or something. Unless they are victims, of course. Lovely, lovely victims, just waiting for instructions and tons of love from us. It's a beautiful thing. I still can't believe the lovely dance in communication I have with my ILI bf. I can be direct, he's not offended. I can tell him what I want or what I think he could to to accomplish something on his mind, and he's on it. But...somehow, even though he is very dedicated to meeting my needs, he doesn't come across as a beta mamas boy at all. Quite the opposite, actually.
I sent him text today...it said "I wanna brainstorm with you later about business ideas, we are both too awesome to spend our days working for other people"
And he said "Then brainstorm we shall do"
I guess that's the victim mentality, I can do anything, but I need an impetus to get going. The desires of a lover make for a fine impetus to action. They did say that victim males display their affections towards a woman as if they were a knight devoted to a princess and I can't really fault that description. After all, an ideal knight has the ability to choose their lord. Endless devotion, but only to one who is worthy. Evil and arrogant nobles are for slaying, benevolent and humble nobles are for serving.
That is interesting, I have much more egalitarian women and men both get stuff done views. I do agree that the cool people are the people who get stuff done. There was a counter argument, but I forgot it.
Indeed. Many people forget the fact that behind every great leader is a great army. The great general is nothing without great soldiers and the fact he or she realizes this and acts accordingly is what made them great. Say what you will, people like Alexander led their charges while their foes leaders cowered behind their soldiers in a gilded tent. Small wonder that they won and their foes lost. Soldiers are way more likely to enthusiastically follow a person who puts their skin in the game like they did. Sun Tsu even got that fact, recommending that the general be a father to his men. Why? They'll do much better in battle if you do that because they'll practically love you and, well, we'd all go through hell for someone we love
Fuck the Ivory Tower, get your hands dirty, that's what a real leader does. Everyone hates a cowardly boss, but everyone loves a courageous leader.
Honestly, I think Romantic styles only go so far @End. It's in the nature of men to approach and women to be approached, I think aggressor women simply display more consistent signs of interest than victims who tend not to. Even mb ESFP women (most probably SEE) that I've encountered tend not to approach, they just consistently bombard you with signs of interest until you do, and if you don't then they don't want you anymore and move on to the next interesting guy. They're not exactly going to wait forever, if a guy doesn't have the balls to at least talk to them after they've made their interest abundantly obvious to everyone in the room then that's really on the guy, victim or not.
Sin City reminded me of this thread, needless to say what the pic below is of
Interesting observations, @Resonare. I don't have enough real-life experience with ESI's or SEE's to say whether your assertion about how they show interest is commonly the case or not. One ESI-Fi I know irl did make her interest obvious, and one ESI-Se is kind of playing tag. She is very happy to see me, and then vanishes into non-communication for weeks. Too little data for a conclusion, but if they work the way you describe, then that is a happy thought, certainly.
But I will say that my reasons for not approaching an aggressor female might not be only from a lack of balls (they're still there, the last time I checked), but rather from seeing where things would easily go, and not taking that first step because it almost certainly leads to a disaster.
Some disasters are fine, particularly when both disasterees benefit. But disasters where someone gets hurt are not fine.
The whole aggressor/victim dynamic isn't fully understood in my mind. See, any good, confident victim will try to entice their dual to be their subconsciously aggressive self... for a few days. After the few days they'd start to worry about a mistype and thus get rather more overt. If I "liked" a girl I'd construct and lure them into a few scenarios in which it'd be easy for her to hit on me with minimal social risk and ask me out. I like her, I want her to ask me out. However, I get how the culture says that the man must make the first move and culture isn't type related. Therefore, if she wasn't picking up on my rather overt displays after a few days I'd just come out and say it bluntly. I don't like being the aggressor, but I'll do it if I think I see some potential in that department in regards to the woman. She's an aggressor, she just doesn't want to admit it. Hell, it took me awhile to admit I'm a victim. Gender role inversions are uncommon but they happen and I just so happen to be an example. I didn't choose my ego functions, my ego functions chose me!
Regardless, what she ought to have gotten subtly I can help her to get overtly. The culture says she must be submissive. I can play the long con, I can help her to realize that she'd rather like being the aggressor she subconsciously really is. I can wait,is the prophecy function. You hear it now, you believe it later
Ya, End. Whine to her for hours on end (get it?)~~. Make her believe you are a victim: drop objects frequently, speak in a high squeaky voice esp when you tell her that she is an aggressor because ~~socionics. It will totally make her (the phantom creature in this tale) want yo dingaling after the above plays out for no less than fifty days.
Ka-ching.
@lungs was also critical of me when I applied Socionics relationship rules dispassionately, without regard to any feelings a person might have of personal compassion for another. (I've since come to see that she has a valid point.) This might be an Fi thing, reacting to a Te thing. Or, it might be a Feeler reacting to a Thinker. Sometimes, it is hard to keep in mind that a Thinker thinks as well as a Feeler feels, and vice-versa.
End, no one wants to be called a Victim. The terminology sucks, even if the description narrowly applies. Here is a link to some really good posts about this between @ENJoymENT (female LIE) and @wacey (male ESI).
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ttitudes/page3
Particularly good are posts # 109, 111, 114, 118, 119, 120, 121, 124.
Feelers think and thinkers feel and the world continues to spin.
Edit: Nevermind, if you saw what I deleted.
Last edited by Aylen; 04-25-2016 at 04:47 PM.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
I've told you a million and one times that it's not about you being dispassionate but about you being wrong. Not on a feeling level. On a critical thinking level. You continuing to ignore this and your insistence that I'm just being an emotional lil Feeler is disrespectful and demeaning.
Stop baiting me in mentions.
I have never had a problem with the term.
It makes sense and totally applies to what I act like, so. xD
I have to concur with the notion that SF Aggressor women won't necessarily make the "first move" and be very outwardly "aggressive" like a stereotypically "manly man". However, they will make their interest pretty clear when they are interested in you, like asking you a lot of questions, flirting with you, smiling a lot, batting their eyelashes, or just focusing a lot on what you are saying, and making sure your interaction moves forward. (All of the very outwardly emotional signs are rather part of the flirting act by SEE women; Fe Ignoring is not as openly demonstrative of their affections).
The last few post are very true. SEE seem to have no shyness, or inhibition when it comes to showing interest, they will look into your eyes smile consistently but you still have to approach and talk to her. If your already in the same social circle they might touch you, basically they are not very subtle. I remember one after a while would look at me angrily because I didn't respond to her expressions of interest, she would just gaze at me unapologetically but with anger instead of delight lol. In my mind I'm thinking if your going to be so expressive why not just state your intentions, but I've learnt my lesson in those situations the ball is in my court, a SEE will really do more than what most women are willing to do and you have to respect that and reciprocate if your a ili guy. Sigh there are probably 4 possible relationships I missed out on between the ages of 17-22 just because I couldn't respond, but looking back they made it very easy for me.
@Adam Strange I agree that nobody wants to be referred to in terminology that paints them in a submissive light. Everyone would rather like to be the "ruler" as it were, it is but common human nature to desire to be on the "dominant" end of any given relationship. A "victim" is most certainly not "on top" as it were which is how most people take it... on its face.
Who "really" holds power is what the truly intelligent people focus on. A slave can in fact be a master if they play their cards right. The surface "reality" can be the exact opposite of the deeper, more "real" reality. We all have a public face and a private face. Society and culture influence it all but in the end, there are endless possibilities, endless potentials. Even the S&M clubs admit to this ironic fact, the subs run the show. Yeah, you'd think they don't but they do. The doms are pretty much their bitches, playing the role of a villain that the subs scripted out. The writer of a script is pretty much god, everyone else is but a pawn working towards the accomplishment of their grand vision.
Hi, @End.
It sounds like you are saying that ILI's want to control everything from the background, and if so, I agree with this. I have seen it in my ILI friends and the ILI's I have worked with.
One of my oldest friends wrote the code that controls most of the computing machinery at the college where he works. He can now link security camera views from the college to his home, so he can monitor everything going on there. The security at the college has no idea he can do this. This is probably against a number of laws, but heck, I'm an LIE, and I don't care.
My financial advisor is ILI and, while he doesn't tell me how to spend money, he does advise me on how to invest it, and sometimes has excellent advice about financial contacts who can help with various things I want to do. In this way, he is controlling my finances subtly and probably with more far-reaching consequences than I do.
I worked with an ILI professional engineer for a few years. He "ran" the engineering department, although he didn't have that title and he did almost no design. Instead, he planned and directed the work of others. He was extremely skillful and diplomatic about urging people to do their work, rarely pissed people off (although he and I almost had a fistfight at one point - I didn't think anyone could still piss me off like that anymore). The strange thing was, even though he had top-notch professional credentials, he was not that great at creative design, and would get nervous if asked to do that. He really did not want to have to stand up in front of a group in a design review and have his designs criticized. He hated that, to the point where he would defer doing the design to less senior engineer.
I think it's possible that this desire to avoid public criticism and to avoid being called out on their errors may be at the heart of ILI actions. They prefer to control others from behind the curtain, like the Wizard of Oz.
This is also why their duals are SEE, who exalt in being in the public eye but who sometimes have trouble with double-entry bookkeeping and early amortization schedules.
To be fair, I also have no problem being in front of groups advocating ideas, and I hate paperwork. I never learned double-entry bookkeeping, even thought it is supposed to be a cornerstone of capitalism.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-26-2016 at 05:15 PM.
I think that's actually common behavior among aggressors. If the prize is too easily won then creating a few more obstacles might be in order. I remember how my SLE-Ti friend liked this girl back in HS, and when she quickly started to show interest and walked over to us, he went completely cold and turned his back on her. The thing is, he still liked her even after that (he's an aggressor so it was fairly obvious), but the fact she was so easily won turned him off.
Disaster as in being publicly humiliated? That rarely ever happens if you go about it the right way. Men who cold approach have that happen to them a lot if they don't properly "warm" the situation, but most men wait for some kind of sign which greatly lowers the risk of a disaster.
If that works then by all means.The whole aggressor/victim dynamic isn't fully understood in my mind. See, any good, confident victim will try to entice their dual to be their subconsciously aggressive self... for a few days. After the few days they'd start to worry about a mistype and thus get rather more overt. If I "liked" a girl I'd construct and lure them into a few scenarios in which it'd be easy for her to hit on me with minimal social risk and ask me out. I like her, I want her to ask me out. However, I get how the culture says that the man must make the first move and culture isn't type related. Therefore, if she wasn't picking up on my rather overt displays after a few days I'd just come out and say it bluntly. I don't like being the aggressor, but I'll do it if I think I see some potential in that department in regards to the woman. She's an aggressor, she just doesn't want to admit it. Hell, it took me awhile to admit I'm a victim. Gender role inversions are uncommon but they happen and I just so happen to be an example. I didn't choose my ego functions, my ego functions chose me!
Regardless, what she ought to have gotten subtly I can help her to get overtly. The culture says she must be submissive. I can play the long con, I can help her to realize that she'd rather like being the aggressor she subconsciously really is. I can wait,
You sure they don't say it so onlookers don't try to make out the subs as victims? (no pun intended)
@Resonare, that is very, very interesting. It never occurred to me that a Gamma would throw up obstacles in an otherwise good relationship, just to make obtaining a prize into a greater victory. I think there are enough problems to deal with, without adding to them. It does explain a lot, though. Quite a lot. Thank you.
No, disaster as in getting involved with someone who is more than eight years younger than me. They say the dating limit for a guy is half his age plus six, but believe me, it is eight years difference max.
I actually cold approach a lot. The guys I work with have told me they feel that I can talk to anyone, and that is actually true. It is fun, and if it is handled well, both parties get to see how far they want to take it, and no one gets offended.
I don't think I have ever felt humiliated in public. I have been shocked, and sometimes embarrassed, and have felt rejected, and there was an incident a month ago on the forum where I experienced what I thought was a heart attack (which is the way I expect my LIE ass to go), but which turned out to be a panic attack from PTSD (which I didn't even know I had, by God), But humiliation, no.
Yep, ya got it. Let the SEE get everyone's attention, they love it, they crave it, so we gladly give them a venue. Keeps those bright lights off of us, which is how we like it
Hell, this is why I also think many people see ILI as the default "villain" sociotype. We can wait, we can be ever so subtle, then when the stars finally align just right... I just wish we'd be shown as doing this in a good fashion. Springing the trap on an evil entity at just the right moment in such a way that we eliminate the threat once and for all would be how we'd roll. Then again that's rather dull theatrically, such master strokes are better played from a villainous standpoint. The audience, sadly, expects the "good guys" to win, so any strategic "master strokes" from them doesn't get as many drama points...
I've heard it's half plus seven...just seems like an arbitrary number to me. I'm 24 and the age of consent is 16 where I am so I don't really know what it's like to date someone 8 or more years younger, but I see college girls on my train to work who I'd possibly date but also some who I'd absolutely not (they either look too young or act way too bratty).
I think half a generation (~20 years) is a good cap.
Well, you sound like you know how to properly do it, but a lot of men don't. They try to jump from a normal conversation to a sexual one and come off as "creepy".
But to be honest, my comment was more aimed at types closer to victimness than LIE, particularly @End who I think we all can agree is the most victim on this forum
"Half plus six", or "within eight", only differ in their advice after a guy hits 28.
Yes, maturity matters a lot. But so does the absolute age difference, because the cultural landmarks that people have in common really start to differ after eight years. If it is more than that, when you make a reference to some familiar song that is part of your life, they say "What?".
As for the 20-year cap, I know an ESI-Se irl and I like her a lot. Actually, just spending time with her makes me happy. (Honestly, before I met her, I didn't know relationships could work that way. I now think it might be an Se-Creative, Ni-Activating thing for me.) She is very easy for me to be around. It doesn't hurt that she is very smart, insightful, kind, funny, attractive, and a talented artist. She also kind of looks like me, 'tho she's blonde and my hair is brown and she's missing the facial scars. When she was about 21, I took her to an Art Fair to introduce her to some professional artists I know, so they could tell her how to start selling her art. After she went home, armed with her new knowledge, I returned to one of the artists to buy some of his stuff, and he told me I have a very nice daughter.
I said to myself, "OK, I'm stupid. I need to find an older version of her."
I sometimes visit a University, and I like to guess the sociotypes of the people there. There are a lot of ESI's visible around the age of 18-22 (Chef and Nursing classes on the same floor), and not many after that. (I don't know where they go.
I'm pretty sure SEI females think I'm creepy.
@End may be a Victim, but I don't think he is the most Victim on the forum. Not by a long shot. I think that honor, along with the ribbon for most feminine (in the Russian Socionics sense, not in the Adam "Let's do something tonight" sense), goes to @Persephone.But to be honest, my comment was more aimed at types closer to victimness than LIE, particularly @End who I think we all can agree is the most victim on this forum
Last edited by Adam Strange; 04-27-2016 at 11:15 PM.
Ouch. If you look like you might be her dad then yeah, the gap is probably too large
See, I never get open statements of interest like that from womenI sometimes visit a University, and I like to guess the sociotypes of the people there. There are a lot of ESI's visible around the age of 18-22 (Chef and Nursing classes on the same floor), and not many after that. (I don't know where they go.
I'm pretty sure SEI females think I'm creepy.. Then after I get my drink, she gets hers and goes to a different place than where she normally sits (one around a corner so she can sulk) and slams the envolopes she was carrying onto the table out of frustration.
She looks ridiculously SEE for the most part but her eyes look very sorrowful and she acts like an ILI, either way I can tell she's someone I'd get on extremely well with once we actually start talking with each other.
I thought @Persephone is ESI?
I am not. Besides I wonder why I am even mentioned here.
You were mentioned for being the "most Victim".
I wonder how you are supposedly the "most Victim"?
Sounds like her interest in you is simply not strong enough. There is/was potential for it, but somehow you disappointed her.See, I never get open statements of interest like that from women
She looks ridiculously SEE for the most part but her eyes look very sorrowful and she acts like an ILI, either way I can tell she's someone I'd get on extremely well with once we actually start talking with each other.
Women tend to find men more attractive who are also desired by other women, so that is why her interest was slightly greater for a short amount of time when the other girl showed interest in you.
But after all, looks like it is not gonna happen with the two of you, unless you impress her in some way down the line, then she might change her mind. Even then, the whole attraction thing to you is on shaky grounds, and she'd likely break up with you after the max of 2 years in case you actually got together.
An age gap is only an issue if you make it to be one.
IME, SO blindspot men are the most open to dating someone much younger/older than them; the latter is mostly reserved to certain Sp/Sx men, interestingly; dating a "cougar" is in some way a contraflow+social blindspot thing – men are expected to date someone younger/around their own age culturally, and Sp/Sx just does not care. (As a whole, Social blindspot is way less concerned with adhering to social norms, including age gap norms.)
Having said that, a lot of Sp/Sx men I know of just dated someone much younger again. And I am talking of 20-30 years younger. Though the greatest age gaps I have seen were with guys who were around 50 years (!) older than their girlfriend/wife and Sx/Sp.
established adults who are interested in teenagers are creeps who want control and power in the relationship. I've tried not to be judgmental about this, because I realize people have differing maturity levels and can't help attraction, but everything I've seen and experienced over the course of my lifetime leads me to this single conclusion.
Good question (that I am not even able to answer)You were mentioned for being the "most Victim".
I wonder how you are supposedly the "most Victim"?
A desire for control and power in a relationship does not always go in that direction.
My LII sister told me that, when she was 17, she seduced a 54 yo guy at his house when his wife was not there. I asked her how it went with him and she said it was OK. I asked her why she did it, and she said it made her feel powerful, desired, and like an adult.
Obviously, any relationship between two people where the levels of power and control are very different should be examined cautiously. It helps to look at what each person expects to get from the interaction, and to ask if what they are giving and getting benefits them both and makes them into better, healthier people, or if it simply serves a selfish purpose.
lol, perse, you do seem like the most obvious victim to me, it was the first thing that stood out to me about you ;p
you just kind of have this "prove you can handle it" thing going on almost all of the time, lolz.
teenage girls don't have power over 54 year old men. fuck off with that nastiness
Look at my sister's position here. She seduced a married man at his home. If she threatened to go to his wife with this information, how much power and control would she have over him?
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