Complementary elements - how does this work?

**Myst** · 09-21-2015, 08:08 AM

My question more specifically is, how do Ti and Fe complement each other in a cognitive information processing sense? I never needed explaining of how Se and Ni worked together, that one was always just totally obvious to me, I also somewhat understand Te/Fi and Si/Ne but I don't truly get it about Ti and Fe.

PS: I'm fine with theoretical discussion about this, that's why I said above that I'm interested in the information processing aspect of how they complement each other, though real life examples are always welcome too!

**ConcreteButterfly** · 09-21-2015, 08:22 AM

Fe is the internal energy that builds up when your attention is fixed at a particular point. This concentration of attention is what you could call Ti. Without Fe, Ti breaks down as your attention drifts elsewhere.

**Myst** · 09-21-2015, 08:57 AM

Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly

Fe is the internal energy that builds up when your attention is fixed at a particular point. This concentration of attention is what you could call Ti. Without Fe, Ti breaks down as your attention drifts elsewhere.

OK maybe I do need a bit less abstract way of putting this... You are talking about a specific type of attention, aren't you?

**nondescript** · 09-21-2015, 09:10 AM

Sorry, I can't talk about this. It's like I'm thinking of something but I don't know what.

Don't know enough about this unfortunately to make connections. Wish I could help.

**Pookie** · 09-21-2015, 02:41 PM

Alright, ill try to break this down:

You know how Ni & Se form a continuum between wholly attentive to external stimuli and wholly attentive to internal stimuli(I.E. Looking at something [space], seeing how something changes [time]). Fe is wholly involved, and Ti is wholly abstract. So the continuum is established again. The Ti is the sharper of the two options(just as Ni appears sharper than Se), but the Fe helps it put dots on the map to connect(All introverted IEs connect the dots). So, say NiFe see's someone do something and relays to the SeTi, hey that guy is lying and I don't like why I think he's lying. The Ti says, don't worry. We'll mobilize when we figure it out, or we'll adapt when the time comes... for now lets rest easy and focus elsewhere so we don't miss anything. And when its time to act, Ti has thought about whatever and is prepared for the interaction. Fe saw whatever it was before it was time to act, and gave the pre-emptive warning.

With Alpha, its different. The whole Si-Ne hedonist vibe alters the Ni-Se conquer and crush notion beta has. The Fe and Ti changes based on what it teams up with. Alpha is more playful.

**tejing** · 09-21-2015, 06:08 PM

This thread made me think of this:

(xkcd comic originally here)

The state of mind being conveyed here is very

(with some

), and the punch line is the intrusion of that darn

into the situation. The undercurrents are very

, though. There's a sense of excited awe behind the clarity of the

.

**golden** · 09-21-2015, 10:31 PM

Ti is masturbatory. Fe is copulatory.

**marooned** · 09-21-2015, 10:48 PM

is moody and volatile and rants a lot and has an overload of emotion in all the colors of feeling...

is cold and analytical, sometimes passionless... you put them together and

will analyze and break down all the

output to make sense of it, thus calming the

one down to a more "sane" state... but also the

one can absorb some of that emotional overload, coming more in touch with their own emotional experience and expression.

(?)

**Myst** · 09-22-2015, 04:19 AM

Originally Posted by Pookie

Alright, ill try to break this down:

You know how Ni & Se form a continuum between wholly attentive to external stimuli and wholly attentive to internal stimuli(I.E. Looking at something [space], seeing how something changes [time]). Fe is wholly involved, and Ti is wholly abstract. So the continuum is established again. The Ti is the sharper of the two options(just as Ni appears sharper than Se), but the Fe helps it put dots on the map to connect(All introverted IEs connect the dots). So, say NiFe see's someone do something and relays to the SeTi, hey that guy is lying and I don't like why I think he's lying. The Ti says, don't worry. We'll mobilize when we figure it out, or we'll adapt when the time comes... for now lets rest easy and focus elsewhere so we don't miss anything. And when its time to act, Ti has thought about whatever and is prepared for the interaction. Fe saw whatever it was before it was time to act, and gave the pre-emptive warning.

With Alpha, its different. The whole Si-Ne hedonist vibe alters the Ni-Se conquer and crush notion beta has. The Fe and Ti changes based on what it teams up with. Alpha is more playful.

OK the part what is vague to me is how the Fe helps with dots. Elaborate on that if you can?

Originally Posted by tejing

The state of mind being conveyed here is very

(with some

), and the punch line is the intrusion of that darn

into the situation. The undercurrents are very

, though. There's a sense of excited awe behind the clarity of the

.

Yeah I can see that about the undercurrents, though, how is that complementary in a logical sense? That's really what I'm asking about here

Originally Posted by inumbra

is moody and volatile and rants a lot and has an overload of emotion in all the colors of feeling...

is cold and analytical, sometimes passionless... you put them together and

will analyze and break down all the

output to make sense of it, thus calming the

one down to a more "sane" state... but also the

one can absorb some of that emotional overload, coming more in touch with their own emotional experience and expression. (?)

I get the first part of that, clearly analysis can help with such emotionality but how is the reverse aiding Ti egos? Beyond the idea of it feeling good or whatever.

**Beautiful sky** · 10-24-2015, 10:43 PM

Originally Posted by inumbra

is moody and volatile and rants a lot and has an overload of emotion in all the colors of feeling...

is cold and analytical, sometimes passionless... you put them together and

will analyze and break down all the

output to make sense of it, thus calming the

one down to a more "sane" state... but also the

one can absorb some of that emotional overload, coming more in touch with their own emotional experience and expression.

(?)

I agree this is how my sister is and one way in which my brother in law helps to calm her. She screamed at the kids the other day for not showering saying"you can't ask anything of these kids now. It's too much to ask them to shower" that scream while all of us were calm my brother in law was calm too then he talked to her and she calmed down went straight into a joking mood. So strange.

**Pookie** · 09-22-2015, 05:17 AM

Fe identifies things not apparent. Outside of the typical Fe stuff, Fe's major skill is discernment. Example - the face he made when he said "x", made me believe this/that is going on behind the scenes. Ni & Si pick up different things. But identifying the this or that, that isnt explicit but rather implicitly detected, is the dot. Its information. Extroverted functions pick up on dots. Introverted functions connect the dots.

**ConcreteButterfly** · 09-22-2015, 06:50 AM

Originally Posted by Pookie

Fe identifies things not apparent. Outside of the typical Fe stuff, Fe's major skill is discernment. Example - the face he made when he said "x", made me believe this/that is going on behind the scenes. Ni & Si pick up different things. But identifying the this or that, that isnt explicit but rather implicitly detected, is the dot. Its information. Extroverted functions pick up on dots. Introverted functions connect the dots.

This is a cool way of putting it. Could you explain it some more?

**golden** · 09-22-2015, 01:34 PM

Fe to Ti examples.

ISTjs can seem kind of tight, dry -- not fluid. When I met my husband, it soon became clear to me that he had almost no experience being teased. When I made jokes at his expense, he would seize up -- it was funny to watch, because his immediate reaction was visceral and defensive and then I saw his thinking click into place, telling himself it was me doing the joking, so there was no harmful intent, and then he'd calm down.

Seeing this, I warned him I was going to tease him a LOT until he got used to it. And he did. He's much looser now and I think he probably feels better about himself. You have to be able to absorb some interpersonal punches like that to feel at ease with people.

I've also done a lot of normalizing in terms of how he relates to his mother, sister, and daughter. At first he took this amiss, as deliberate and condescending correction on my part. But eventually I think he saw it was more just a natural tendency that I have ... to have an idea of how things should be, and move us all toward that. Specifically, once he gets pissed, he can have an inordinately hard time moving on from it. I'm not saying I don't get equally pissed, but I tend to keep people moving forward through a situation and he doesn't. Now he accepts that from me, or even wants it, because it brings relief.

The tempo of our lives is established by many dynamics of this kind (this is a tiny snapshot), and it makes things seem a lot more relaxed because it feels like whatever extremes one of us may be able to drive things to, the other person is there to keep it in check, no need to make a request, just happens.

**Myst** · 09-23-2015, 01:33 AM

Originally Posted by Pookie

Fe identifies things not apparent. Outside of the typical Fe stuff, Fe's major skill is discernment. Example - the face he made when he said "x", made me believe this/that is going on behind the scenes. Ni & Si pick up different things. But identifying the this or that, that isnt explicit but rather implicitly detected, is the dot. Its information. Extroverted functions pick up on dots. Introverted functions connect the dots.

Yes what I was asking about though was how Fe provides the dots, what sort of dots that fit with the Ti style of information processing.

Originally Posted by GOLDEN

Fe to Ti examples.

ISTjs can seem kind of tight, dry -- not fluid. When I met my husband, it soon became clear to me that he had almost no experience being teased. When I made jokes at his expense, he would seize up -- it was funny to watch, because his immediate reaction was visceral and defensive and then I saw his thinking click into place, telling himself it was me doing the joking, so there was no harmful intent, and then he'd calm down.

Seeing this, I warned him I was going to tease him a LOT until he got used to it. And he did. He's much looser now and I think he probably feels better about himself. You have to be able to absorb some interpersonal punches like that to feel at ease with people.

I've also done a lot of normalizing in terms of how he relates to his mother, sister, and daughter. At first he took this amiss, as deliberate and condescending correction on my part. But eventually I think he saw it was more just a natural tendency that I have ... to have an idea of how things should be, and move us all toward that. Specifically, once he gets pissed, he can have an inordinately hard time moving on from it. I'm not saying I don't get equally pissed, but I tend to keep people moving forward through a situation and he doesn't. Now he accepts that from me, or even wants it, because it brings relief.

The tempo of our lives is established by many dynamics of this kind (this is a tiny snapshot), and it makes things seem a lot more relaxed because it feels like whatever extremes one of us may be able to drive things to, the other person is there to keep it in check, no need to make a request, just happens.

Thanks for the examples, that's always good to have, unfortunately I don't see from this how he processes the Fe stuff with Ti, which is part of what this thread is really about, only the results are visible here. Interesting anyway.

Btw, is he Ti subtype? I don't relate to the issue of it being hard to move on when getting pissed. I want to resolve it directly and that's what I focus on and when it's not really a problem that's to be solved, just some immediate reaction to some shit, I just act it out in whatever way works for it. I'm not one to dwell on shit that I know can be directly addressed.

**golden** · 09-23-2015, 02:54 AM

Originally Posted by Myst

Thanks for the examples, that's always good to have, unfortunately I don't see from this how he processes the Fe stuff with Ti, which is part of what this thread is really about, only the results are visible here. Interesting anyway.

Btw, is he Ti subtype? I don't relate to the issue of it being hard to move on when getting pissed. I want to resolve it directly and that's what I focus on and when it's not really a problem that's to be solved, just some immediate reaction to some shit, I just act it out in whatever way works for it. I'm not one to dwell on shit that I know can be directly addressed.

I can't give you anything but the results without being other people. My husband is Se subtype, and although you may think you don't have a hard time moving on, you appear from my point of view to keep circling back to things, and picking up details, in ways I would not. You described it yourself: "I want to resolve it directly." Not everything can be resolved directly. Not everything can even be resolved. The direct attempt to push for resolution can create and/or perpetuate a conflict. It's fatiguing for many other people, even if for you it makes sense and is done in good faith.

**Myst** · 09-23-2015, 04:47 AM

Originally Posted by Pookie

Value judgements discerned from a mix of past experiences, behavior and visual cues.

Yeah, I know as much, just trying to see better how these two different kinds of judgments (Fe/Ti) work together.

Originally Posted by GOLDEN

I can't give you anything but the results without being other people. My husband is Se subtype, and although you may think you don't have a hard time moving on, you appear from my point of view to keep circling back to things, and picking up details, in ways I would not. You described it yourself: "I want to resolve it directly." Not everything can be resolved directly. Not everything can even be resolved. The direct attempt to push for resolution can create and/or perpetuate a conflict. It's fatiguing for many other people, even if for you it makes sense and is done in good faith.

I had a thought you might respond with something like this so not an actual surprise here, heh. I meant I don't have a hard time moving on after it's all out in the open because then I can figure out what's up / what to do / etc. I saw some people move on much harder because they never even attempt to deal with things. It takes much longer for them then and it causes problems later.

I'm sure it's cool if someone doesn't at all mind things in life hence nothing ever for them to move on from, but I'm just not that kind of person. Also, my way of processing has another purpose beyond all the above, it's also about figuring out patterns so some things can be dealt with in a better way in future.

OK though if you are trying to say this has something to do with the Fe/Ti dynamics. Can you say more on how you "keep people moving forward through a situation"?

ps: I wasn't expecting you to mind read your husband, I was simply clarifying what exactly I was looking for. Still appreciated the examples, as I said in the first post too, they are always welcome.

**Beautiful sky** · 10-24-2015, 09:51 PM

Originally Posted by golden

I can't give you anything but the results without being other people. My husband is Se subtype, and although you may think you don't have a hard time moving on, you appear from my point of view to keep circling back to things, and picking up details, in ways I would not. You described it yourself: "I want to resolve it directly." Not everything can be resolved directly. Not everything can even be resolved. The direct attempt to push for resolution can create and/or perpetuate a conflict. It's fatiguing for many other people, even if for you it makes sense and is done in good faith.

I don't do this either maybe my weak Ti. I do circle back to emotions.

Originally Posted by golden

Fe to Ti examples.

ISTjs can seem kind of tight, dry -- not fluid. When I met my husband, it soon became clear to me that he had almost no experience being teased. When I made jokes at his expense, he would seize up -- it was funny to watch, because his immediate reaction was visceral and defensive and then I saw his thinking click into place, telling himself it was me doing the joking, so there was no harmful intent, and then he'd calm down.

Seeing this, I warned him I was going to tease him a LOT until he got used to it. And he did. He's much looser now and I think he probably feels better about himself. You have to be able to absorb some interpersonal punches like that to feel at ease with people.

I've also done a lot of normalizing in terms of how he relates to his mother, sister, and daughter. At first he took this amiss, as deliberate and condescending correction on my part. But eventually I think he saw it was more just a natural tendency that I have ... to have an idea of how things should be, and move us all toward that. Specifically, once he gets pissed, he can have an inordinately hard time moving on from it. I'm not saying I don't get equally pissed, but I tend to keep people moving forward through a situation and he doesn't. Now he accepts that from me, or even wants it, because it brings relief.

The tempo of our lives is established by many dynamics of this kind (this is a tiny snapshot), and it makes things seem a lot more relaxed because it feels like whatever extremes one of us may be able to drive things to, the other person is there to keep it in check, no need to make a request, just happens.

Is that your Ni...seeing where things should be and moving there?

**golden** · 10-24-2015, 10:50 PM

Originally Posted by Maritsa

I don't do this either maybe my weak Ti. I do circle back to emotions.

Is that your Ni...seeing where things should be and moving there?

Yes, you do circle back to emotions. I dislike doing that, myself.

I don't know if it's Ni. I have a feeling of what is going to make everyone get along better in our family and be their best selves, and feel more emotionally secure. (Not always!) I can usually keep us functioning as a unit rather than splintering into factions. I can keep us moving past disagreements rather than dwelling on them. I figure this has something to do with my ego functions but haven't tried to say exactly how it works. It's very important to me. It's also a weak area for my husband.

**Myst** · 10-25-2015, 01:27 PM

Originally Posted by golden

It's fatiguing for many other people, even if for you it makes sense and is done in good faith.

Ah I think I didn't address this one yet, so yes it may take some time and energy but if both parties *care* then it's OK. And I find it helps if I tell people that I'm putting in the effort to understand them out of the basic respect that everyone deserves by default.

**Pookie** · 09-23-2015, 01:42 AM

Provides the dots? By pointing them out. So... verbally?

**Myst** · 09-23-2015, 01:56 AM

Originally Posted by Pookie

Provides the dots? By pointing them out. So... verbally?

Lol sure. Any thoughts on the second part of my post to you?

**Pookie** · 09-23-2015, 02:32 AM

Value judgements discerned from a mix of past experiences, behavior and visual cues.

**Beautiful sky** · 09-23-2015, 04:52 AM

Micromanagers want to resolve everything and they often circle back to things

**Beautiful sky** · 09-23-2015, 04:58 AM

Fe gets judging from an ethical view not being able to analyze the other thin gs in the picture and Ti does that by offering a comparison in a systemic fashion. Example, ESE will say "we continue to work harder and harder while making less money" LSI will say "well compared to last year we worked50 hours less and our net profit rose by 20%" ESE is reacting without analysis because their current feelings are dissatisfaction and unfairness.

**Myst** · 09-23-2015, 07:06 AM

Originally Posted by Maritsa

Fe gets judging from an ethical view not being able to analyze the other things in the picture and Ti does that by offering a comparison in a systemic fashion. Example, ESE will say "we continue to work harder and harder while making less money" LSI will say "well compared to last year we worked 50 hours less and our net profit rose by 20%" ESE is reacting without analysis because their current feelings are dissatisfaction and unfairness.

Yeah I've seen that sort of thing happen countless times with some people... I do understand this part of the Ti/Fe dynamics somewhat, the Ti part of it anyway, when I help make sense of stuff for Fe egos. Otoh I'm having this incredibly hard time seeing how it actually works from the other direction.

**Myst** · 09-24-2015, 07:41 AM

I read this:

Contact functions 5 and 8 are in the vital ring and strive to unconsciously make contact with the environment. This is indefinitely true of the suggestive function. Since it complements the base function, people unknowingly seek information related to it from the environment to strengthen its ability. It is theoretically the only way one can improve on their leading function.

So I'll add this question, how does Fe improve Ti itself?

**silke** · 09-24-2015, 08:04 AM

Ti feels like static points and Fe provides some direction for their movement in space/time, and so it helps align individual's Ti points with those of others? Smth smth that has to do with creating more cohesive and harmonious interactions.

**Myst** · 10-24-2015, 08:18 PM

I'm thinking I've partially figured this out since then. Still open to thoughts of course.

**Beautiful sky** · 10-24-2015, 09:47 PM

Works like butter on toast

@Sol where's the butter

**Sol** · 10-24-2015, 10:32 PM

Originally Posted by Myst

My question more specifically is, how do Ti and Fe complement each other in a cognitive information processing sense?

for example:
Ti describes laws, hierarchy. Fe gives public image to them.
Fe energizes. Ti points where to do this, sets limits.

**Exodus** · 07-03-2018, 09:28 AM

@Myst

Here is how I currently view it: Fe is about changeable states or forms, Ti is about static structure. Ti gives structure and stability to the forms with its structure, while Fe gives the structure content / manifestation / a reason to exist by filling it with the changeable states / forms / expressions, or you could say by propagating the structure itself.

To give an analogy, it's like you have a cup with water in it. Ti is the cup - the hard structure that gives the water form and "organizes" it for the person drinking it - and Fe is the water which gives the cup's form "life" and a reason to exist. A cup without something to drink out of it is just a pretty trinket at best, while water without a container won't stick around very long.

**Exodus** · 07-03-2018, 09:45 AM

Originally Posted by thehotelambush

@Myst

Here is how I currently view it: Fe is about changeable states or forms, Ti is about static structure. Ti gives structure and stability to the forms with its structure, while Fe gives the structure content / manifestation / a reason to exist by filling it with the changeable states / forms / expressions, or you could say by propagating the structure itself.

To give an analogy, it's like you have a cup with water in it. Ti is the cup - the hard structure that gives the water form and "organizes" it for the person drinking it - and Fe is the water which gives the cup's form "life" and a reason to exist. A cup without something to drink out of it is just a pretty trinket at best, while water without a container won't stick around very long.

Also, this connects to what I wrote on my site about "bridge logic" vs "wall logic". Bridges and walls are the static Ti structures.

**User Name** · 07-03-2018, 10:06 AM

Originally Posted by thehotelambush

@Myst

Here is how I currently view it: Fe is about changeable states or forms, Ti is about static structure. Ti gives structure and stability to the forms with its structure, while Fe gives the structure content / manifestation / a reason to exist by filling it with the changeable states / forms / expressions, or you could say by propagating the structure itself.

To give an analogy, it's like you have a cup with water in it. Ti is the cup - the hard structure that gives the water form and "organizes" it for the person drinking it - and Fe is the water which gives the cup's form "life" and a reason to exist. A cup without something to drink out of it is just a pretty trinket at best, while water without a container won't stick around very long.

I really like this analogy, never thought it that way.

**Myst** · 07-03-2018, 07:50 PM

Originally Posted by thehotelambush

@Myst

Here is how I currently view it: Fe is about changeable states or forms, Ti is about static structure. Ti gives structure and stability to the forms with its structure, while Fe gives the structure content / manifestation / a reason to exist by filling it with the changeable states / forms / expressions, or you could say by propagating the structure itself.

To give an analogy, it's like you have a cup with water in it. Ti is the cup - the hard structure that gives the water form and "organizes" it for the person drinking it - and Fe is the water which gives the cup's form "life" and a reason to exist. A cup without something to drink out of it is just a pretty trinket at best, while water without a container won't stick around very long.

I.e. emotions are needed for motivation? Or?

Originally Posted by thehotelambush

Also, this connects to what I wrote on my site about "bridge logic" vs "wall logic". Bridges and walls are the static Ti structures.

Link?

**Exodus** · 07-04-2018, 01:20 PM

Originally Posted by Myst

I.e. emotions are needed for motivation? Or?

In my view Fe is not necessarily (or essentially) about emotions. But yes, emotions are a subjective indication of what is important to us.

Link?

http://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com/...ts-in-Model-A2

I no longer stand by all of the speculative material here but if you read the articles on my site you'll have a decent idea of my views (there aren't that many pages).

Originally Posted by nickelslick

Enter Fe, which covers very different aspects of reality to Ti, but doesn't impose itself on the domain of Ti, and since Te is undervalued to a Ti type anyway, the conflict between Fe and Te isn't seen as significant. Now we have two functions of the same rationality and are different enough to provide maximum value/insight to the other, while presenting this information in a form most easily digestible. I think any further explanation of compliment is unnecessary, and this applies to all complimentary pairs.

I agree 100% and I've mentioned this in the past: the "non-interferingness" of dual elements is key to how they work together (and how the corresponding types work together in a practical sense).

**Myst** · 07-04-2018, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by thehotelambush

In my view Fe is not necessarily (or essentially) about emotions.

Just about subjective evaluation and expression?

http://wholesocionics.herokuapp.com/...ts-in-Model-A2

I no longer stand by all of the speculative material here but if you read the articles on my site you'll have a decent idea of my views (there aren't that many pages).

Ok, I checked out that part, thanks

**Exodus** · 07-05-2018, 07:12 PM

Originally Posted by Myst

Just about subjective evaluation and expression?

If you're looking for something closer to what I see as the essence of Fe, refer to my post above. The point is that emotion is how we subjectively experience internal states.

**domr** · 07-03-2018, 10:07 PM

Originally Posted by thehotelambush

@Myst

Here is how I currently view it: Fe is about changeable states or forms, Ti is about static structure. Ti gives structure and stability to the forms with its structure, while Fe gives the structure content / manifestation / a reason to exist by filling it with the changeable states / forms / expressions, or you could say by propagating the structure itself.

To give an analogy, it's like you have a cup with water in it. Ti is the cup - the hard structure that gives the water form and "organizes" it for the person drinking it - and Fe is the water which gives the cup's form "life" and a reason to exist. A cup without something to drink out of it is just a pretty trinket at best, while water without a container won't stick around very long.

You are right that Fe is changeable and Fi is static but everything else is wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A_priori_and_a_posteriori
https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/r...sm-empiricism/

**Rebelondeck** · 07-03-2018, 10:18 AM

I wrote an article on this; I wasn't entirely pleased with it but it gets my point across. I don't look at it as complementary although, in a way, it is at a macro level; it's more about how information and processes are fundamentally structured......

http://www.socionics.com/articles/soc_pref_io.html

a.k.a. I/O

**golden** · 07-03-2018, 03:09 PM

Originally Posted by Rebelondeck

I wrote an article on this; I wasn't entirely pleased with it but it gets my point across. I don't look at it as complementary although, in a way, it is at a macro level; it's more about how information and processes are fundamentally structured......

http://www.socionics.com/articles/soc_pref_io.html

a.k.a. I/O

This is good. I esp appreciate your focusing on underlying principles, as opposed to increasing theoretical granularity.

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