Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 40 of 71

Thread: Complementary elements - how does this work?

  1. #1

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default Complementary elements - how does this work?

    My question more specifically is, how do Ti and Fe complement each other in a cognitive information processing sense? I never needed explaining of how Se and Ni worked together, that one was always just totally obvious to me, I also somewhat understand Te/Fi and Si/Ne but I don't truly get it about Ti and Fe.

    PS: I'm fine with theoretical discussion about this, that's why I said above that I'm interested in the information processing aspect of how they complement each other, though real life examples are always welcome too!

  2. #2

    Default

    Fe is the internal energy that builds up when your attention is fixed at a particular point. This concentration of attention is what you could call Ti. Without Fe, Ti breaks down as your attention drifts elsewhere.

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ConcreteButterfly View Post
    Fe is the internal energy that builds up when your attention is fixed at a particular point. This concentration of attention is what you could call Ti. Without Fe, Ti breaks down as your attention drifts elsewhere.
    OK maybe I do need a bit less abstract way of putting this... You are talking about a specific type of attention, aren't you?

  4. #4

    Join Date
    Jun 2015
    TIM
    ESI 684
    Posts
    661
    Mentioned
    28 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Sorry, I can't talk about this. It's like I'm thinking of something but I don't know what.

    Don't know enough about this unfortunately to make connections. Wish I could help.

  5. #5
    Pookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    TIM
    IEI-Ni 6w5-9-2 So/Sx
    Posts
    2,369
    Mentioned
    109 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Alright, ill try to break this down:

    You know how Ni & Se form a continuum between wholly attentive to external stimuli and wholly attentive to internal stimuli(I.E. Looking at something [space], seeing how something changes [time]). Fe is wholly involved, and Ti is wholly abstract. So the continuum is established again. The Ti is the sharper of the two options(just as Ni appears sharper than Se), but the Fe helps it put dots on the map to connect(All introverted IEs connect the dots). So, say NiFe see's someone do something and relays to the SeTi, hey that guy is lying and I don't like why I think he's lying. The Ti says, don't worry. We'll mobilize when we figure it out, or we'll adapt when the time comes... for now lets rest easy and focus elsewhere so we don't miss anything. And when its time to act, Ti has thought about whatever and is prepared for the interaction. Fe saw whatever it was before it was time to act, and gave the pre-emptive warning.

    With Alpha, its different. The whole Si-Ne hedonist vibe alters the Ni-Se conquer and crush notion beta has. The Fe and Ti changes based on what it teams up with. Alpha is more playful.
    Last edited by Pookie; 09-21-2015 at 11:39 PM.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

  6. #6
    tejing's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    California
    TIM
    LII-H
    Posts
    166
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    This thread made me think of this:

    (xkcd comic originally here)

    The state of mind being conveyed here is very (with some ), and the punch line is the intrusion of that darn into the situation. The undercurrents are very , though. There's a sense of excited awe behind the clarity of the .
    Valued | Devalued
    < | < | Conscious
    < | < | Unconscious

  7. #7
    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Second story
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,739
    Mentioned
    245 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ti is masturbatory. Fe is copulatory.

  8. #8
    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    954
    Posts
    6,130
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    is moody and volatile and rants a lot and has an overload of emotion in all the colors of feeling... is cold and analytical, sometimes passionless... you put them together and will analyze and break down all the output to make sense of it, thus calming the one down to a more "sane" state... but also the one can absorb some of that emotional overload, coming more in touch with their own emotional experience and expression.

    (?)

  9. #9

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Alright, ill try to break this down:

    You know how Ni & Se form a continuum between wholly attentive to external stimuli and wholly attentive to internal stimuli(I.E. Looking at something [space], seeing how something changes [time]). Fe is wholly involved, and Ti is wholly abstract. So the continuum is established again. The Ti is the sharper of the two options(just as Ni appears sharper than Se), but the Fe helps it put dots on the map to connect(All introverted IEs connect the dots). So, say NiFe see's someone do something and relays to the SeTi, hey that guy is lying and I don't like why I think he's lying. The Ti says, don't worry. We'll mobilize when we figure it out, or we'll adapt when the time comes... for now lets rest easy and focus elsewhere so we don't miss anything. And when its time to act, Ti has thought about whatever and is prepared for the interaction. Fe saw whatever it was before it was time to act, and gave the pre-emptive warning.

    With Alpha, its different. The whole Si-Ne hedonist vibe alters the Ni-Se conquer and crush notion beta has. The Fe and Ti changes based on what it teams up with. Alpha is more playful.
    OK the part what is vague to me is how the Fe helps with dots. Elaborate on that if you can?


    Quote Originally Posted by tejing View Post
    The state of mind being conveyed here is very (with some ), and the punch line is the intrusion of that darn into the situation. The undercurrents are very , though. There's a sense of excited awe behind the clarity of the .
    Yeah I can see that about the undercurrents, though, how is that complementary in a logical sense? That's really what I'm asking about here


    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    is moody and volatile and rants a lot and has an overload of emotion in all the colors of feeling... is cold and analytical, sometimes passionless... you put them together and will analyze and break down all the output to make sense of it, thus calming the one down to a more "sane" state... but also the one can absorb some of that emotional overload, coming more in touch with their own emotional experience and expression. (?)
    I get the first part of that, clearly analysis can help with such emotionality but how is the reverse aiding Ti egos? Beyond the idea of it feeling good or whatever.

  10. #10
    Pookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    TIM
    IEI-Ni 6w5-9-2 So/Sx
    Posts
    2,369
    Mentioned
    109 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Fe identifies things not apparent. Outside of the typical Fe stuff, Fe's major skill is discernment. Example - the face he made when he said "x", made me believe this/that is going on behind the scenes. Ni & Si pick up different things. But identifying the this or that, that isnt explicit but rather implicitly detected, is the dot. Its information. Extroverted functions pick up on dots. Introverted functions connect the dots.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

  11. #11

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Fe identifies things not apparent. Outside of the typical Fe stuff, Fe's major skill is discernment. Example - the face he made when he said "x", made me believe this/that is going on behind the scenes. Ni & Si pick up different things. But identifying the this or that, that isnt explicit but rather implicitly detected, is the dot. Its information. Extroverted functions pick up on dots. Introverted functions connect the dots.
    This is a cool way of putting it. Could you explain it some more?

  12. #12
    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Second story
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,739
    Mentioned
    245 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Fe to Ti examples.

    ISTjs can seem kind of tight, dry -- not fluid. When I met my husband, it soon became clear to me that he had almost no experience being teased. When I made jokes at his expense, he would seize up -- it was funny to watch, because his immediate reaction was visceral and defensive and then I saw his thinking click into place, telling himself it was me doing the joking, so there was no harmful intent, and then he'd calm down.

    Seeing this, I warned him I was going to tease him a LOT until he got used to it. And he did. He's much looser now and I think he probably feels better about himself. You have to be able to absorb some interpersonal punches like that to feel at ease with people.

    I've also done a lot of normalizing in terms of how he relates to his mother, sister, and daughter. At first he took this amiss, as deliberate and condescending correction on my part. But eventually I think he saw it was more just a natural tendency that I have ... to have an idea of how things should be, and move us all toward that. Specifically, once he gets pissed, he can have an inordinately hard time moving on from it. I'm not saying I don't get equally pissed, but I tend to keep people moving forward through a situation and he doesn't. Now he accepts that from me, or even wants it, because it brings relief.

    The tempo of our lives is established by many dynamics of this kind (this is a tiny snapshot), and it makes things seem a lot more relaxed because it feels like whatever extremes one of us may be able to drive things to, the other person is there to keep it in check, no need to make a request, just happens.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Fe identifies things not apparent. Outside of the typical Fe stuff, Fe's major skill is discernment. Example - the face he made when he said "x", made me believe this/that is going on behind the scenes. Ni & Si pick up different things. But identifying the this or that, that isnt explicit but rather implicitly detected, is the dot. Its information. Extroverted functions pick up on dots. Introverted functions connect the dots.
    Yes what I was asking about though was how Fe provides the dots, what sort of dots that fit with the Ti style of information processing.


    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDEN View Post
    Fe to Ti examples.

    ISTjs can seem kind of tight, dry -- not fluid. When I met my husband, it soon became clear to me that he had almost no experience being teased. When I made jokes at his expense, he would seize up -- it was funny to watch, because his immediate reaction was visceral and defensive and then I saw his thinking click into place, telling himself it was me doing the joking, so there was no harmful intent, and then he'd calm down.

    Seeing this, I warned him I was going to tease him a LOT until he got used to it. And he did. He's much looser now and I think he probably feels better about himself. You have to be able to absorb some interpersonal punches like that to feel at ease with people.

    I've also done a lot of normalizing in terms of how he relates to his mother, sister, and daughter. At first he took this amiss, as deliberate and condescending correction on my part. But eventually I think he saw it was more just a natural tendency that I have ... to have an idea of how things should be, and move us all toward that. Specifically, once he gets pissed, he can have an inordinately hard time moving on from it. I'm not saying I don't get equally pissed, but I tend to keep people moving forward through a situation and he doesn't. Now he accepts that from me, or even wants it, because it brings relief.

    The tempo of our lives is established by many dynamics of this kind (this is a tiny snapshot), and it makes things seem a lot more relaxed because it feels like whatever extremes one of us may be able to drive things to, the other person is there to keep it in check, no need to make a request, just happens.
    Thanks for the examples, that's always good to have, unfortunately I don't see from this how he processes the Fe stuff with Ti, which is part of what this thread is really about, only the results are visible here. Interesting anyway.

    Btw, is he Ti subtype? I don't relate to the issue of it being hard to move on when getting pissed. I want to resolve it directly and that's what I focus on and when it's not really a problem that's to be solved, just some immediate reaction to some shit, I just act it out in whatever way works for it. I'm not one to dwell on shit that I know can be directly addressed.

  14. #14
    Pookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    TIM
    IEI-Ni 6w5-9-2 So/Sx
    Posts
    2,369
    Mentioned
    109 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Provides the dots? By pointing them out. So... verbally?
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

  15. #15

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Provides the dots? By pointing them out. So... verbally?
    Lol sure. Any thoughts on the second part of my post to you?

  16. #16
    Pookie's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    TIM
    IEI-Ni 6w5-9-2 So/Sx
    Posts
    2,369
    Mentioned
    109 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Value judgements discerned from a mix of past experiences, behavior and visual cues.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

  17. #17
    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Second story
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,739
    Mentioned
    245 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Thanks for the examples, that's always good to have, unfortunately I don't see from this how he processes the Fe stuff with Ti, which is part of what this thread is really about, only the results are visible here. Interesting anyway.

    Btw, is he Ti subtype? I don't relate to the issue of it being hard to move on when getting pissed. I want to resolve it directly and that's what I focus on and when it's not really a problem that's to be solved, just some immediate reaction to some shit, I just act it out in whatever way works for it. I'm not one to dwell on shit that I know can be directly addressed.
    I can't give you anything but the results without being other people. My husband is Se subtype, and although you may think you don't have a hard time moving on, you appear from my point of view to keep circling back to things, and picking up details, in ways I would not. You described it yourself: "I want to resolve it directly." Not everything can be resolved directly. Not everything can even be resolved. The direct attempt to push for resolution can create and/or perpetuate a conflict. It's fatiguing for many other people, even if for you it makes sense and is done in good faith.

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Pookie View Post
    Value judgements discerned from a mix of past experiences, behavior and visual cues.
    Yeah, I know as much, just trying to see better how these two different kinds of judgments (Fe/Ti) work together.


    Quote Originally Posted by GOLDEN View Post
    I can't give you anything but the results without being other people. My husband is Se subtype, and although you may think you don't have a hard time moving on, you appear from my point of view to keep circling back to things, and picking up details, in ways I would not. You described it yourself: "I want to resolve it directly." Not everything can be resolved directly. Not everything can even be resolved. The direct attempt to push for resolution can create and/or perpetuate a conflict. It's fatiguing for many other people, even if for you it makes sense and is done in good faith.
    I had a thought you might respond with something like this so not an actual surprise here, heh. I meant I don't have a hard time moving on after it's all out in the open because then I can figure out what's up / what to do / etc. I saw some people move on much harder because they never even attempt to deal with things. It takes much longer for them then and it causes problems later.

    I'm sure it's cool if someone doesn't at all mind things in life hence nothing ever for them to move on from, but I'm just not that kind of person. Also, my way of processing has another purpose beyond all the above, it's also about figuring out patterns so some things can be dealt with in a better way in future.

    OK though if you are trying to say this has something to do with the Fe/Ti dynamics. Can you say more on how you "keep people moving forward through a situation"?

    ps: I wasn't expecting you to mind read your husband, I was simply clarifying what exactly I was looking for. Still appreciated the examples, as I said in the first post too, they are always welcome.

  19. #19
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    25,004
    Mentioned
    611 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Micromanagers want to resolve everything and they often circle back to things
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  20. #20
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    25,004
    Mentioned
    611 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Fe gets judging from an ethical view not being able to analyze the other thin gs in the picture and Ti does that by offering a comparison in a systemic fashion. Example, ESE will say "we continue to work harder and harder while making less money" LSI will say "well compared to last year we worked50 hours less and our net profit rose by 20%" ESE is reacting without analysis because their current feelings are dissatisfaction and unfairness.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Fe gets judging from an ethical view not being able to analyze the other things in the picture and Ti does that by offering a comparison in a systemic fashion. Example, ESE will say "we continue to work harder and harder while making less money" LSI will say "well compared to last year we worked 50 hours less and our net profit rose by 20%" ESE is reacting without analysis because their current feelings are dissatisfaction and unfairness.
    Yeah I've seen that sort of thing happen countless times with some people... I do understand this part of the Ti/Fe dynamics somewhat, the Ti part of it anyway, when I help make sense of stuff for Fe egos. Otoh I'm having this incredibly hard time seeing how it actually works from the other direction.

  22. #22

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    I read this:

    Contact functions 5 and 8 are in the vital ring and strive to unconsciously make contact with the environment. This is indefinitely true of the suggestive function. Since it complements the base function, people unknowingly seek information related to it from the environment to strengthen its ability. It is theoretically the only way one can improve on their leading function.

    So I'll add this question, how does Fe improve Ti itself?

  23. #23
    silke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    TIM
    Ni-IEI sx/sp
    Posts
    4,815
    Mentioned
    421 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Ti feels like static points and Fe provides some direction for their movement in space/time, and so it helps align individual's Ti points with those of others? Smth smth that has to do with creating more cohesive and harmonious interactions.

  24. #24

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    I'm thinking I've partially figured this out since then. Still open to thoughts of course.

  25. #25
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    25,004
    Mentioned
    611 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Works like butter on toast
    @Sol where's the butter
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-24-2015 at 11:24 PM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  26. #26
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    25,004
    Mentioned
    611 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    I can't give you anything but the results without being other people. My husband is Se subtype, and although you may think you don't have a hard time moving on, you appear from my point of view to keep circling back to things, and picking up details, in ways I would not. You described it yourself: "I want to resolve it directly." Not everything can be resolved directly. Not everything can even be resolved. The direct attempt to push for resolution can create and/or perpetuate a conflict. It's fatiguing for many other people, even if for you it makes sense and is done in good faith.
    I don't do this either maybe my weak Ti. I do circle back to emotions.

    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    Fe to Ti examples.

    ISTjs can seem kind of tight, dry -- not fluid. When I met my husband, it soon became clear to me that he had almost no experience being teased. When I made jokes at his expense, he would seize up -- it was funny to watch, because his immediate reaction was visceral and defensive and then I saw his thinking click into place, telling himself it was me doing the joking, so there was no harmful intent, and then he'd calm down.

    Seeing this, I warned him I was going to tease him a LOT until he got used to it. And he did. He's much looser now and I think he probably feels better about himself. You have to be able to absorb some interpersonal punches like that to feel at ease with people.

    I've also done a lot of normalizing in terms of how he relates to his mother, sister, and daughter. At first he took this amiss, as deliberate and condescending correction on my part. But eventually I think he saw it was more just a natural tendency that I have ... to have an idea of how things should be, and move us all toward that. Specifically, once he gets pissed, he can have an inordinately hard time moving on from it. I'm not saying I don't get equally pissed, but I tend to keep people moving forward through a situation and he doesn't. Now he accepts that from me, or even wants it, because it brings relief.

    The tempo of our lives is established by many dynamics of this kind (this is a tiny snapshot), and it makes things seem a lot more relaxed because it feels like whatever extremes one of us may be able to drive things to, the other person is there to keep it in check, no need to make a request, just happens.
    Is that your Ni...seeing where things should be and moving there?
    Last edited by Beautiful sky; 10-24-2015 at 11:27 PM.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  27. #27

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    11,347
    Mentioned
    1043 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    My question more specifically is, how do Ti and Fe complement each other in a cognitive information processing sense?
    for example:
    Ti describes laws, hierarchy. Fe gives public image to them.
    Fe energizes. Ti points where to do this, sets limits.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  28. #28
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    25,004
    Mentioned
    611 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by inumbra View Post
    is moody and volatile and rants a lot and has an overload of emotion in all the colors of feeling... is cold and analytical, sometimes passionless... you put them together and will analyze and break down all the output to make sense of it, thus calming the one down to a more "sane" state... but also the one can absorb some of that emotional overload, coming more in touch with their own emotional experience and expression.

    (?)
    I agree this is how my sister is and one way in which my brother in law helps to calm her. She screamed at the kids the other day for not showering saying"you can't ask anything of these kids now. It's too much to ask them to shower" that scream while all of us were calm my brother in law was calm too then he talked to her and she calmed down went straight into a joking mood. So strange.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  29. #29
    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Second story
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,739
    Mentioned
    245 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    I don't do this either maybe my weak Ti. I do circle back to emotions.


    Is that your Ni...seeing where things should be and moving there?
    Yes, you do circle back to emotions. I dislike doing that, myself.

    I don't know if it's Ni. I have a feeling of what is going to make everyone get along better in our family and be their best selves, and feel more emotionally secure. (Not always!) I can usually keep us functioning as a unit rather than splintering into factions. I can keep us moving past disagreements rather than dwelling on them. I figure this has something to do with my ego functions but haven't tried to say exactly how it works. It's very important to me. It's also a weak area for my husband.

  30. #30
    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Location
    EII land
    TIM
    EII INFj
    Posts
    25,004
    Mentioned
    611 Post(s)
    Tagged
    6 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    Yes, you do circle back to emotions. I dislike doing that, myself.

    I don't know if it's Ni. I have a feeling of what is going to make everyone get along better in our family and be their best selves, and feel more emotionally secure. (Not always!) I can usually keep us functioning as a unit rather than splintering into factions. I can keep us moving past disagreements rather than dwelling on them. I figure this has something to do with my ego functions but haven't tried to say exactly how it works. It's very important to me. It's also a weak area for my husband.
    when something sinks in it holds my for a long time. I am envious of Fe types that way.

    There's your Fe..."it's important to me." All objective. My Fi wouldn't say that lol because it is what it is. I took the situation and I must do with it.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

  31. #31

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by golden View Post
    It's fatiguing for many other people, even if for you it makes sense and is done in good faith.
    Ah I think I didn't address this one yet, so yes it may take some time and energy but if both parties *care* then it's OK. And I find it helps if I tell people that I'm putting in the effort to understand them out of the basic respect that everyone deserves by default.

  32. #32
    thehotelambush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,113
    Mentioned
    287 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    @Myst

    Here is how I currently view it: Fe is about changeable states or forms, Ti is about static structure. Ti gives structure and stability to the forms with its structure, while Fe gives the structure content / manifestation / a reason to exist by filling it with the changeable states / forms / expressions, or you could say by propagating the structure itself.

    To give an analogy, it's like you have a cup with water in it. Ti is the cup - the hard structure that gives the water form and "organizes" it for the person drinking it - and Fe is the water which gives the cup's form "life" and a reason to exist. A cup without something to drink out of it is just a pretty trinket at best, while water without a container won't stick around very long.

  33. #33
    thehotelambush's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    8,113
    Mentioned
    287 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    @Myst

    Here is how I currently view it: Fe is about changeable states or forms, Ti is about static structure. Ti gives structure and stability to the forms with its structure, while Fe gives the structure content / manifestation / a reason to exist by filling it with the changeable states / forms / expressions, or you could say by propagating the structure itself.

    To give an analogy, it's like you have a cup with water in it. Ti is the cup - the hard structure that gives the water form and "organizes" it for the person drinking it - and Fe is the water which gives the cup's form "life" and a reason to exist. A cup without something to drink out of it is just a pretty trinket at best, while water without a container won't stick around very long.
    Also, this connects to what I wrote on my site about "bridge logic" vs "wall logic". Bridges and walls are the static Ti structures.

  34. #34
    Insert Password Here User Name's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2017
    Location
    Italy
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    506
    Mentioned
    69 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    @Myst

    Here is how I currently view it: Fe is about changeable states or forms, Ti is about static structure. Ti gives structure and stability to the forms with its structure, while Fe gives the structure content / manifestation / a reason to exist by filling it with the changeable states / forms / expressions, or you could say by propagating the structure itself.

    To give an analogy, it's like you have a cup with water in it. Ti is the cup - the hard structure that gives the water form and "organizes" it for the person drinking it - and Fe is the water which gives the cup's form "life" and a reason to exist. A cup without something to drink out of it is just a pretty trinket at best, while water without a container won't stick around very long.
    I really like this analogy, never thought it that way.
    KEEP IT LIGHT AND KEEP IT MOVING

  35. #35
    Rebelondeck's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2016
    Posts
    1,258
    Mentioned
    108 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    I wrote an article on this; I wasn't entirely pleased with it but it gets my point across. I don't look at it as complementary although, in a way, it is at a macro level; it's more about how information and processes are fundamentally structured......

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/soc_pref_io.html

    a.k.a. I/O

  36. #36
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,329
    Mentioned
    85 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    By no means an all-encompassing view on the matter, but nevertheless I think it has its merits:

    http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.co...n-eie-lsi.html
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  37. #37
    Feeling fucking fantastic golden's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2010
    Location
    Second story
    TIM
    EIE
    Posts
    3,739
    Mentioned
    245 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I wrote an article on this; I wasn't entirely pleased with it but it gets my point across. I don't look at it as complementary although, in a way, it is at a macro level; it's more about how information and processes are fundamentally structured......

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/soc_pref_io.html

    a.k.a. I/O
    This is good. I esp appreciate your focusing on underlying principles, as opposed to increasing theoretical granularity.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

  38. #38

    Join Date
    May 2009
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    3,518
    Mentioned
    262 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Do logic and emotions complement, or conflict? It can obviously go either way - it all has to do with intent. Since there can be no explanation of why that is the case, it has be taken upon faith that Ti and Fe complements. But that's just not good enough. It just seems like people are giving a bunch of justifications for why Ti and Fe complements in a "just so" way, without trying to prove why that might be wrong, which would be a more sensible approach.

    And isn't logic or rationally initially based on emotion? I highly doubt that there is a such thing as a purely logical thought within a human thought. We start with emotions first, and then perhaps use logic to analyze, correct or give justifications.

    I would think that logic and rationality are closely related with the ability to use tools and problem-solving, since they require understanding of causal mechanisms. It also obviously require logical and rational thought to solve problems. And using tools is a kind of problem-solving - you crack open a nut using tools, to solve the problem of wanting to obtain the nut inside of the shell.

    These animals are known to use tools:

    Great apes
    Crows
    Elephants
    Dolphins
    Sea Otters
    Octopuses

    All of those animals are highly social, perhaps even the octopuses... I would suspect that logic and rationality evolved out of a need to put a check on our emotions to restrain ourselves so that our behavior becomes more socially appropriate or give us more social advantages. Since we are such socially dependent and cooperative creatures, putting checks on our emotions and to deliberately suppress them using logic and rationality obviously gave us advantages over others.

    All animals started with emotions in order for them to "act". More complex social animals started evolving logic and rationality in order to put a check on emotions to give them more social advantages over others (such as chimpanzees, as they're known for their highly political nature). What we think of as "lesser" animals hardly have any control over their own emotions - they act on instincts.

    But why logic? Couldn't something else put a check on our emotions? Is it just a total coincidence that logic happened to have had such universal reach, so much so that we can use logic in order to explain something that is totally unrelated to what we were trying to solve, whether that's using tools to crack open a nut, or trying to attempt social maneuvering? That is, we can seemingly use logic to understand something on the other side of the universe or something like that? Why does logic have such objectivity? Because it requires impartiality and impersonality in order to get a "big picture" of where we place ourselves in our social world?

    I'm not sure whether logic and emotions conflict or not. But I do think that perhaps logic and rationality acts as an executive controller that puts a check on our emotions. Kind of like Freud's idea of "superego".

  39. #39

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Singu View Post
    Do logic and emotions complement, or conflict? It can obviously go either way - it all has to do with intent. Since there can be no explanation of why that is the case, it has be taken upon faith that Ti and Fe complements.
    I don't know what you meanby intent here. As for an explanation... there are some in this thread, I have no idea why you are unable to consider them as explanations.


    But that's just not good enough. It just seems like people are giving a bunch of justifications for why Ti and Fe complements in a "just so" way, without trying to prove why that might be wrong, which would be a more sensible approach.
    You know sometimes it's not the best approach to try and prove things wrong because then you will never get to reach a decision for taking action.


    And isn't logic or rationally initially based on emotion?
    Not necessarily. Elaborate on what you mean by "based on", as this is too vague. There is a complex intertwining of logic and feelings though, for sure.


    I highly doubt that there is a such thing as a purely logical thought within a human thought. We start with emotions first, and then perhaps use logic to analyze, correct or give justifications.
    When you think with logic, there is an affective component too yes, for feedback... but there is still a process going on that's purely logical processing, just it isn't going on in isolation from the rest of the brain/world. It's about that simple.



    All of those animals are highly social, perhaps even the octopuses... I would suspect that logic and rationality evolved out of a need to put a check on our emotions to restrain ourselves so that our behavior becomes more socially appropriate or give us more social advantages. Since we are such socially dependent and cooperative creatures, putting checks on our emotions and to deliberately suppress them using logic and rationality obviously gave us advantages over others.
    Actually "social logic" isn't the same as impersonal logic. These are implemented in different brain systems too.


    All animals started with emotions in order for them to "act". More complex social animals started evolving logic and rationality in order to put a check on emotions to give them more social advantages over others (such as chimpanzees, as they're known for their highly political nature). What we think of as "lesser" animals hardly have any control over their own emotions - they act on instincts.
    I find this kind of explanation biased.


    But why logic? Couldn't something else put a check on our emotions? Is it just a total coincidence that logic happened to have had such universal reach, so much so that we can use logic in order to explain something that is totally unrelated to what we were trying to solve, whether that's using tools to crack open a nut, or trying to attempt social maneuvering? That is, we can seemingly use logic to understand something on the other side of the universe or something like that? Why does logic have such objectivity? Because it requires impartiality and impersonality in order to get a "big picture" of where we place ourselves in our social world?
    ...Fe ego thoughts on Ti? lol

    I would just assume it's some way to process some aspects of the world, and that's just how the world works in part: that objective logical approach is able to process that way of working (suppose, it evolved to process those aspects).


    I'm not sure whether logic and emotions conflict or not. But I do think that perhaps logic and rationality acts as an executive controller that puts a check on our emotions. Kind of like Freud's idea of "superego".
    How about emotion (including social refined emotional feeling) can put a check on logic too. On the purely utilitarian and sometimes sociopathic seeming objective approach.

    Also: Damasio: Descartes' error. Emotion, Reason and the Human Brain

    https://ufile.io/up3aa

    (Link valid for 30 days)

  40. #40

    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    TIM
    LSI-Se sx
    Posts
    4,697
    Mentioned
    507 Post(s)
    Tagged
    25 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    @Myst

    Here is how I currently view it: Fe is about changeable states or forms, Ti is about static structure. Ti gives structure and stability to the forms with its structure, while Fe gives the structure content / manifestation / a reason to exist by filling it with the changeable states / forms / expressions, or you could say by propagating the structure itself.

    To give an analogy, it's like you have a cup with water in it. Ti is the cup - the hard structure that gives the water form and "organizes" it for the person drinking it - and Fe is the water which gives the cup's form "life" and a reason to exist. A cup without something to drink out of it is just a pretty trinket at best, while water without a container won't stick around very long.
    I.e. emotions are needed for motivation? Or?


    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Also, this connects to what I wrote on my site about "bridge logic" vs "wall logic". Bridges and walls are the static Ti structures.
    Link?

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •