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Thread: MBTI to socionics conversion

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    MBTI has the wrong base functions for introverts and has misunderstood Si. But if you only go by the big letters then I agree with you that the types are the same. SEI=ISFP etc.
    ISFP also called Alexander Dumas has the first function introverted feeling. The second function is extroverted sensing. Ethical Sensing Introtim E. S. I. ESI (Fi,Se)

    ISFJ also called Theodore Dreiser has the first function introverted sensing. The second function is extroverted feeling. Sensing Ethical Introtim S. E. I. SEI (Si,Fe)

    INFP also called Yesenin has the first function introverted feeling. The second function is extroverted intuition. Ethical Intuitive Introtim E. I. I. EII (Fi,Ne)

    INFJ also called Dostoevsky has the first function introverted intuition. The second function is extroverted feeling. Intuitive Ethical Introtim I. E. I. IEI (Ni,Fe)

    INTP also called Balzac has the first function introverted thinking. The second function is extroverted intuition. Logical Intuitive Introtim L. I. I. LII (Ti,Ne)

    INTJ also called Robespierre has the first function introverted intuition. The second function is extroverted logic. Intuitive Logical Introtim I. L. I. ILI (Ni,Te)

    ISTP also called Jean Gabin has the first function introverted thinking. The second function is extroverted sensing. Logical Sensing Introtim L. S. I. LSI (Ti,Se)

    ISTJ also called Maxim Gorky has the first function introverted sensing. The second function is extroverted thinking. Sensing Logical Introtim S. L. I. SLI (Si,Te)
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  2. #42
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khcs View Post
    ISFP also called Alexander Dumas has the first function introverted feeling. The second function is extroverted sensing. Ethical Sensing Introtim E. S. I. ESI (Fi,Se)

    ISFJ also called Theodore Dreiser has the first function introverted sensing. The second function is extroverted feeling. Sensing Ethical Introtim S. E. I. SEI (Si,Fe)

    INFP also called Yesenin has the first function introverted feeling. The second function is extroverted intuition. Ethical Intuitive Introtim E. I. I. EII (Fi,Ne)

    INFJ also called Dostoevsky has the first function introverted intuition. The second function is extroverted feeling. Intuitive Ethical Introtim I. E. I. IEI (Ni,Fe)

    INTP also called Balzac has the first function introverted thinking. The second function is extroverted intuition. Logical Intuitive Introtim L. I. I. LII (Ti,Ne)

    INTJ also called Robespierre has the first function introverted intuition. The second function is extroverted logic. Intuitive Logical Introtim I. L. I. ILI (Ni,Te)

    ISTP also called Jean Gabin has the first function introverted thinking. The second function is extroverted sensing. Logical Sensing Introtim L. S. I. LSI (Ti,Se)

    ISTJ also called Maxim Gorky has the first function introverted sensing. The second function is extroverted thinking. Sensing Logical Introtim S. L. I. SLI (Si,Te)
    You seem to have mixed up things. Dumas is SEI. That is Introverted Sensing (Si) as the first function. Similar with the other types etc.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    You seem to have mixed up things. Dumas is SEI. That is Introverted Sensing (Si) as the first function. Similar with the other types etc.
    It is not mixed up. The first function of Dumas is introverted feeling and the first function of Dreiser is introverted sensing.

    Anyway. Take the blue pill and believe whatever you want to believe.
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    I'm ISTP in MBTI and IEE in socionics

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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by khcs View Post
    It is not mixed up. The first function of Dumas is introverted feeling and the first function of Dreiser is introverted sensing.

    Anyway. Take the blue pill and believe whatever you want to believe.
    Where did you get that information that Dumas is ESI and Dreiser SEI? Can you give the link? All Socionics websites I've seen have them the other way around.

    Anyway, so you are saying that ISTJ = SLI, ISFP= ESI and so on. It could seem like that because now at least the functions are the same. There are some problems with this. Here are some examples:

    - The type descriptions and understanding of the types don't fit. ISTJ is called "inspector" in mbti, but why would that fit the SLI?. Isn't inspector what we link to LSI?

    - ISFJ is said to be traditional, hard-working. Doesn't really fit the SEI.

    - Si is defined totally differently and doesn't even refer to the same thing as Jung/Socionics.

    - The judging / perceiving dichotomy doesn't match rational/ irrational. Even though they should be the same thing.

    MBTI is broken. That's also why one can't really learn typology using MBTI. Too many flaws, people get the wrong type / wrong functions and so on.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    My ISFP bestie keeps testing ESE. Idk. I test either ENFP or ENTP in MBTI (I don't fully relate to either tbfh, what is ENFP's Fi about? Personal beliefs? I don't have any. ENTP's Ti? subjective logic? I don't have it, coz I seek an universal type of logic.), i'm IEE in Socionics. 7w8 in enneagrandma.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PissholeMan View Post
    What is ENFP's Fi about? Personal beliefs?
    Emotional Intelligence.
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    Quote Originally Posted by khcs View Post
    Emotional Intelligence.
    I was told by a psychologist I highly lack this.
    I make music

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    Quote Originally Posted by PissholeMan View Post
    I was told by a psychologist I highly lack this.
    ENFP (Huxley) types are emotionally highly intelligent. They have excellent skills in scanning the emotional states of other people. They can read others as if they were open books.

    However they may to miss-interpret the intentions or overreact to the inconsiderate behaviors (criticism, provocation, irritation , devaluation and disrespect) of others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by khcs View Post
    ENFP (Huxley) types are emotionally highly intelligent. They have excellent skills in scanning the emotional states of other people. They can read others as if they were open books.

    However they may to miss-interpret the intentions or overreact to the inconsiderate behaviors (criticism, provocation, irritation , devaluation and disrespect) of others.
    In MBTI or Socionics?

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    Quote Originally Posted by heptayooooooo View Post
    In MBTI or Socionics?
    Both.
    This is the comment you are looking for



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    Quote Originally Posted by PissholeMan View Post
    I was told by a psychologist I highly lack this.
    I think that's kind of weird, having interacted with you.

    Did they state why they thought this?
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    MBTI has the wrong base functions for introverts and has misunderstood Si. But if you only go by the big letters then I agree with you that the types are the same. SEI=ISFP etc.
    That is wrong.

    ISFP = ESI
    SEI = ISFJ

    I'm clear ISTP under MBTI, in socionics I'm LSI-H to C.

    I even have those Ti-Ni loops MBTI describes..


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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post

    ISFP = ESI
    SEI = ISFJ
    I've already explained why that doesn't work. I'm done with this discussion.

    If you, as an LSI is "clearly ISTP in mbti" then why are you "perceiving" suddenly. Maybe because of H subtype? But then you throw out typical consistent functions and are just playing with behaviour and descriptions that happen to fit.

    And how can I as an SEI be "ISFJ" when the descriptions fit the ESI better and "Si" is referring to something totally different. And why would I as an irrational type be "judging".

    MBTI doesn't capture the real phenomenon of the types. Only almost. Why play with something that is broken when Socionics gets it right.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    One more thing:

    It doesn't take a genius to see that MBTI Si has been re-defined to fit the behaviour of the ISTJ "Inspector" and ISFJ "Protector" / "Defender". (LSI and ESI). As a result of that the other (all) functions for the introverts are fucked up, but people might not notice it and simply accept their type.

    So basically some kind of sensing-rational behaviour has been renamed as a "function". Real Si (Jung/Socionics) doesn't exist in MBTI but one can see traces of it in some ISFP descriptions for example.
    Last edited by Tallmo; 12-20-2020 at 04:10 PM.
    A true sense-perception certainly exists, but it always looks as though objects were not so much forcing their way into the subject in their own right as that the subject were seeing things quite differently, or saw quite other things than the rest of mankind. As a matter of fact, the subject perceives the same things as everybody else, only, he never stops at the purely objective effect, but concerns himself with the subjective perception released by the objective stimulus.
    (Jung on Si)


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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I've already explained why that doesn't work. I'm done with this discussion.

    If you, as an LSI is "clearly ISTP in mbti" then why are you "perceiving" suddenly. Maybe because of H subtype? But then you throw out typical consistent functions and are just playing with behaviour and descriptions that happen to fit.
    Idk, tacked on mbti functions seem to fit as well. Its not sudden lol, I was always around 80+% P or "irrational". I used to think I was INTP, but imo thats just because I'm highly open minded in the big5. When interacting with LIIs it becomes obvious that I'm not one of them.

    And how can I as an SEI be "ISFJ" when the descriptions fit the ESI better and "Si" is referring to something totally different. And why would I as an irrational type be "judging".
    O.o ESi-C or ESI-H can be an explanation. SEI has Si base, so they are natural caregivers.. just like an ISFJ (two systems describing the same kind of person from 2 different perspectives). ESI are aggressors, SEI are caregivers, see romance stiles: http://www.wikisocion.net/en/index.p...Romance_styles Idk, you know yourself best.

    MBTI doesn't capture the real phenomenon of the types. Only almost. Why play with something that is broken when Socionics gets it right.
    Well, its the topic of this thread and so I gave my observations as to what might be going on.

    For LSI the translations for English are basic google translations and they get it wrong. Ti isn't about "rules" as in external rules at work in a thread or anything like that. Ti is logic of fields between objects aka systems or how stuff works aka "rules and laws". Example: how a computer network works, how to write music, how the human body works and so on. The idea of me giving a fuck about someone else's arbitrary rules is quite ridiculous tbh. "RULES" in an English context makes the type sound MBTI ISTJ or ESTJ-ish, but thats not how the russians understand it lol. Maybe its just me and Ti, but language and using the correct words to describe things is extremely important.

    imo properly understood socionics translates into MBTI directly as the functions+IEs are. ESI is ISFP. Base descriptions are always bad, due to ppl being highly complex and so one can't squeeze everyone into the same hole. Its just about finding core patterns that reveal a category one belongs to.

    Here is why Gulenko considered me Ti base (it does not really differ from MBTI Ti - which I also demonstrate in this post):

    Installation (activity orientation)
    Logic is more than ethics
    The respondent is good at systematization and comprehension of complex information. He approaches everything that happens from the logical point of view - he tries to find regularities and draw reasonable conclusions. When memorizing, he relies on connections between the data to build a biger picture. He is good at solving problems where there is a system, including technical ones.
    Judging by his facial expressions, his smile is more like a role smile, i.e. consciously represented. Perhaps, he is learning some communication techniques on purpose. Emotions rarely capture him to such an extent that he loses self-control.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 12-20-2020 at 08:41 PM.

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    @shotgunfingers

    You can't read the terms 'caregiver' and 'Si' and jump to a conclusion like that. You will die from nominality.

    When you read the MBTI ISFP description, it becomes clear they are talking about SEIs. And by ISFJs they are closer to ESIs. No need to twist the definition of Si to make it applicable in the case of ISFjs for SEI: what we explain using Si+Fe in this commuity for SEIs, in mbti they go by the way of "Fi+Se", and you can go check this out yourself.

    In socionics: "SEIs prefer relaxing because of Si"
    In mbti: "ISFPs only mobilize when they feel like it because of Fi, no strong sense of obligation and they respond to themselves"

    And they do the same with the rest of characteristics.

    They're still referring to the same set of observable traits.

    Now please read this and tell me if you could just write "ESI" here where it says ISFPs and it would still make sense in socionics:

    ISFPs are gentle caretakers who live in the present moment and enjoy their surroundings with cheerful, low-key enthusiasm. They are flexible and spontaneous, and like to go with the flow to enjoy what life has to offer. ISFPs are quiet and unassuming, and may be hard to get to know. However, to those who know them well, the ISFP is warm and friendly, eager to share in life's many experiences.

    ISFPs have a strong aesthetic sense and seek out beauty in their surroundings. They are attuned to sensory experience, and often have a natural talent for the arts. ISFPs especially excel at manipulating objects, and may wield creative tools like paintbrushes and sculptor's knives with great mastery.

    ISFPs tend to be tolerant and nonjudgmental, but are deeply loyal to the people and causes that matter to them.

    ISFPs are typically modest and may underestimate themselves. They usually do not like to be in the spotlight, preferring instead to take a supporting role, and will avoid planning and organizing whenever possible
    Tell me now if this makes sense for SEIs:

    ISFJs are industrious caretakers, loyal to traditions and organizations. They are practical, compassionate, and caring, and are motivated to provide for others and protect them from the perils of life. ISFJs are conventional and grounded, and enjoy contributing to established structures of society. They are steady and committed workers with a deep sense of responsibility to others. They focus on fulfilling their duties, particularly when they are taking care of the needs of other people. They want others to know that they are reliable and can be trusted to do what is expected of them. They are conscientious and methodical, and persist until the job is done.

    ISFJs appreciate tradition and like knowing how things were done in the past. They are loyal to established methods and values, and want to observe the proper, accepted way of doing things.

    Which one is closer Te Polr, Te-valuing, merry or serious, rational or irrational, etc...
    Last edited by Rusal; 12-21-2020 at 02:10 AM.
    Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.

  18. #58
    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    I always identified w esi & isfp and sth sth nuance it wasn't a completely ungrounded idea. but isfj might be ok without all that sj low iq normie baggage. I haven't looked at mbti in ages.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    I think that's kind of weird, having interacted with you.

    Did they state why they thought this?
    Coz I don't "give a shit about anything" and whatever. I forgot exactly what it was but I remember one of the comments was that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PissholeMan View Post
    Coz I don't "give a shit about anything" and whatever. I forgot exactly what it was but I remember one of the comments was that.
    "Not giving a shit about anything" can also be a sign of the opposite attitude.

    Did this psychologist take this expression of your attitude at "face value", ie literally? Because if they did, they made a mistake, I think...
    What good is a book that does not even transport us beyond all books?

    ~Nietzsche

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    Quote Originally Posted by Uncle Ave View Post
    "Not giving a shit about anything" can also be a sign of the opposite attitude.

    Did this psychologist take this expression of your attitude at "face value", ie literally? Because if they did, they made a mistake, I think...
    Yeah, this bitch was also telling me I have zero empathy for others and that I only care about myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by khcs View Post
    ENFP (Huxley) types are emotionally highly intelligent. They have excellent skills in scanning the emotional states of other people. They can read others as if they were open books.

    However they may to miss-interpret the intentions or overreact to the inconsiderate behaviors (criticism, provocation, irritation , devaluation and disrespect) of others.
    IEE makes excellent bonding but the awareness is probably more about themselves which they can communicate easily. Affecting others with their attachment. As per external this is much more of Fe area.
    Last edited by Chin Diaper 007; 12-21-2020 at 10:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    @shotgunfingers

    You can't read the terms 'caregiver' and 'Si' and jump to a conclusion like that. You will die from nominality.

    When you read the MBTI ISFP description, it becomes clear they are talking about SEIs. And by ISFJs they are closer to ESIs. No need to twist the definition of Si to make it applicable in the case of ISFjs for SEI: what we explain using Si+Fe in this commuity for SEIs, in mbti they go by the way of "Fi+Se", and you can go check this out yourself.

    In socionics: "SEIs prefer relaxing because of Si"
    In mbti: "ISFPs only mobilize when they feel like it because of Fi, no strong sense of obligation and they respond to themselves"

    And they do the same with the rest of characteristics.

    They're still referring to the same set of observable traits.

    Now please read this and tell me if you could just write "ESI" here where it says ISFPs and it would still make sense in socionics:



    Tell me now if this makes sense for SEIs:



    Which one is closer Te Polr, Te-valuing, merry or serious, rational or irrational, etc...
    I'm sorry, I sometimes come off as condescending and overly sure of what I say. I'm just trying to make Tallmo and you guys think tbh.

    I think relying on type descriptions is a bad idea in comparison to just going with what the information elements placed in that function order would mean. ESI & SEI for example has 4D Si and 4D Fi, both are their strongest functions. A ESI will just naturally do 4DSi without thinking about it.
    Practically when typing one would determine S vs N, T vs F, E vs I and end up with 2 types. So for example IF S>N, T<F and I>E = either ESI or SEI. Probalem is BOTH of them have 4D Si and Fi. So the real hard part is differentiating those 2 types. Someone who has a clear understanding both in theory and practical expereince as to how those types differentiate can then make the call "this person is SEI" because such and such argument. This is kinda where lack of experience for most of us fails.

    In case of SEI vs ESI and as to which is more ISFP.. well there seems to be some kind of misunderstanding of Dreiser as this moral church going housewife ISFJ... e_e but ESIs have SUBJECTIVE ethics... meaning they usually do not give a flying fuck what the general accepted morality is for example.. and they use Si on the same level of SEI. While ESI may sometimes be in line with the majority way of thinking, its more likely that they just are not.

    Similarly to LSI ^^' most of the time I don't care what other ppl think in terms of logic or see its shallow, so it becomes very easy to simply disagree and create a counter-argument. Its usually only in areas where I KNOW that I'm lacking in some way do I listen (at first or at least figure out a better way) to the expert in the field (because not doing so wouldn't make any sense, I'm Ti lead, not a dumb know it all).

    Here is a more decent Russian translated desc of ESI:

    Block 1. Ethics - accepting, inert, strong

    For Dreisers, information about values, morality, attitudes, qualities of people, their reactions and behavior is valuable and necessary for the perception of the world in itself. He does not use this information as a tool, since it is of self-sufficient value for him.

    ESI tends to be very deeply immersed in thinking about the values ​​of people and their behavior. In this area, he wants not only to receive information, but also to process it, creating new, his own attitudes - new ideas about morality, ethics, etiquette, which may come into conflict with external social attitudes.

    This type assimilates a large amount of both his own and someone else's experience in the field of attitudes towards certain things, and this allows him to develop universal moral norms, taking into account many ethical factors.

    BE - mental, boot, template, value

    Dreisers tend to generalize information and build it into abstract categories. He often uses in his speech non-specific assessments (“good”, “decent”, “wrong”, “mean”) and general descriptions of the qualities of people with a clear evaluative subtext (“human”, “rotten”, “friend”, “enemy” ).

    ESI constantly monitors the state of his relations with others, and seeks to keep them under control. Moreover, he can establish not only his own, but also other people's relations, settle conflicts. In this area, stability is important to him.

    This type builds its picture of the world on clear principles, it is typical for it to have a kind of “ethical code”, even if its ideas about morality differ from the generally accepted ones.

    He is interested in studying the values ​​of people, posing moral dilemmas to them in order to understand their system of priorities in life. He likes to figure out what is important for people and not important, what they think is good and bad, and give his own assessment of this.

    CHE - vital, unloading, situational, non-value


    A dreiser rarely talks about concrete actions and actions of people, or, for example, retells other people's words and dialogues, since in his area of ​​attention are not the behavioral manifestations of people directly, but conclusions drawn from them - about the qualities of people, about how to evaluate their actions, for example, is this or that act a betrayal.

    This type is not characterized by adherence to principles in matters of etiquette, politeness and behavioral norms. The motives of the action are more important to him than the action itself (that is, whether the action was committed maliciously, knowingly or by mistake, does the person regret what he did).

    ESI, as a rule, approaches behavior quite flexibly, adjusting it to a specific situation and a specific person. At the same time, he may unexpectedly manifest his own behavioral attitudes, which are very different from the generally accepted ones. But they do not appear on an ongoing basis, but rather chaotically.

    Information about the actions, behavior of people, the rules of decency and etiquette is not interesting to this type in itself, if it does not reveal issues of relationships and human qualities. Interacting with such information causes internal resistance.



    Block 2. Logic - acceptance, contact, weak

    For Dreisers, an unconditional self-sufficient value is information about skills, algorithms of actions, about how the world works. He wants to work with such information without any additional purpose.

    At the same time, ESI does not tend to dive deeply into work with knowledge and skills, and bring something new into this area. It consumes information of this kind from the external environment, but does not create it. This type is superficially understood in theories, patterns, technologies and algorithms of actions, since it is difficult for him to concentrate his attention on this for a long time.

    A dreiser assimilates skills and knowledge in a limited amount, therefore his horizons in these areas cannot be called broad. Usually, his theoretical and practical knowledge is enough to ensure his own life, but not in order to teach others or propose some kind of global solutions.

    BL - mental, unloading, formulaic, non-value

    ESI's penchant for generalizations is also manifested in the fact that it tends to notice general patterns in its picture of the world, leaving out of the scope of attention those particulars that led it to conclusions about how various phenomena are arranged and functioning.

    The dreiser does not feel stress about the lack of information that allows one to correctly understand certain phenomena, nor does he seek to give other people a complete picture of the world.

    In his worldview, he starts from some generalized principles of the world order, which remain unchanged for him, regardless of what objects he works with.

    Information about the patterns and causes of phenomena is perceived by the Dreiser as redundant, inapplicable to real life, and therefore the interaction with it is limited.

    CHL - vital, loading, situational, value

    It is difficult for a dreiser to concentrate on specific actions that he needs to perform in the process of work in order to achieve a particular result. It is much easier to fix on general principles on which a specific algorithm of actions is based.

    ESI tend to experience a stressful state in situations when he does not understand what needs to be done to solve a problem, according to what algorithm to interact with the environment, when he faces a large number of tasks that must be simultaneously kept in the field of attention.

    Difficulties in working with this kind of information are also associated with the fact that this type does not streamline it, that is, it does not form patterns of world perception associated with technologies and action algorithms. From his position, what worked once is not the fact that it will work the same the second time, and this applies to everything with which he interacts. This leads him to a certain uncertainty in the field of practical work and the application of skills.

    However, Dreisers consume such information with great interest, he likes when they explain to him what to do and how, when they provide clear instructions. People who are well versed in this, cause him respect and craving for them.



    Block 3. Sensory - productive, contact, strong


    ESI is not interested in information about the abilities and feelings of people by themselves. It helps him understand the moral qualities of people and their commitment to their values ​​(for example, whether a person is able to defend his principles or is too weak for this). He can use internal and external resources and senses to improve his performance or better absorb new knowledge.

    It is not typical for a dreiser to get hung up on objects, on studying their qualities and resources inherent in them. If there is an external request, then he turns to this kind of information, but understands it superficially and does not try to create something new with its help (for example, to develop the maximum abilities of his body with the help of nutrition and exercise, or to invent new smells, working with perfumery).

    At the same time, this type assimilates information about sensations (tastes, smells, sounds, external appearance of objects, their internal potential, resources that allow objects to influence each other) in a very significant volume. In combination with superficiality, a situation is formed when he knows a lot about it, but shallowly, only a little bit, “on top”.

    Emergencies - mental, unloading, situational, value

    ESI keeps in the spotlight and realizes such things as the potential impact of surrounding objects on each other, the alignment of forces, the authority of the people around and their vulnerabilities. He often touches on these concepts in his speech.

    It is not typical for him to constantly monitor the dangers, strive for a sense of security and stability of his social status. He can “play” with such categories, for example, provoking situations that are risky for himself and others.

    In the picture of the ESI world, objects are not built into a clear hierarchy according to their influence on each other. For example, from his point of view, you can be both a strong and a weak person, depending on what situation you find yourself in and what leverage you use.

    Dreisers are interested in information about strength, weakness and other resources inherent in people, about what people are capable of and with the help of which they cope with the limitations of reality. Such information is perceived, processed and absorbed without internal resistance.

    BS - vital, bootable, template, non-value


    Dreisu hardly concentrates his attention on certain properties of surrounding objects, such as smell, color, size, etc. Usually he describes them in general terms, for example, with the words “beautiful”, “comfortable”, if there is no additional incentive to describe in more detail.

    At the same time, ESI makes sure that feelings (both his and those of others) are in order and are in a sufficiently stable state that they do not interfere with their professional activities and do not spoil the attitude towards life.

    This type has fairly clear ideas about what sensations should be, for example, how the surrounding objects should look like, what taste and smell the food should have, how the “correct” music should sound. Aesthetics is something objective for him, not a matter of taste.

    However, it is difficult for him to interact with information about sensations in large quantities, since its perception, processing and assimilation causes internal resistance. Such information seems boring and redundant.



    Block 4. Intuition - productive, inert, weak

    The events taking place in life are not interesting to the Dreiser by themselves. They are for him a means of manifesting certain human qualities, or a way to collect more information about how the world works and how to interact with it correctly.

    At the same time, ESI is deeply immersed in work with information about events. He seeks to independently produce ideas, and not take ready-made ones from other people. He also strives to make his own predictions for the future, analyzing current trends and past experiences.

    Since this type assimilates information about events only in a small amount, it is inherent in a narrow specialization in this area - for example, the study of trends in one area, while ignoring other areas and factors. Because of this, Dreisers may look biased in their predictions.

    CHI - mental, bootstrapping, situational, non-value

    ESI perceives the whole picture of the event better than its individual elements. It is easier for him to describe in general terms how everything was and how it became, than to talk about what specific changes have occurred.

    It is important for a dreiser to see all the possibilities, all the alternatives so as not to miss anything. He gets stressed when he realizes that he did not take into account and did not notice some option. He gratefully accepts the unobtrusive help from the outside in finding alternatives, but only if the proposed alternatives are realistic and applicable in life.

    Working with options for ESI is complicated by the fact that he does not have a stereotype of what options can be used in a given situation, which ideas are suitable for a particular situation, from which he could start from (for example, ideas of which theme to organize a festive party). Because of this, he has to come up with ideas every time as for the first time.

    Information about diversity, about how everything in the world can be different, various alternative ideas about anything - this is what Dreiser itself is not interested in. He seeks to work with ideas when they are realistic and they can be embodied in reality, and he discards everything superfluous, redundant.

    BI - vital, unloading, template, value


    ESI is difficult to make out in detail the entire array of changes that constantly occur in the surrounding reality. He does not automatically focus on them because he tends to generalize this kind of information into something more abstract. For example, it is easier for him to say “life has become worse” than to describe specific changes that made life worse from his point of view.

    It is not too important for Dreisers to be aware of the events, he does not feel the stress that he is missing current trends, news, information about what is happening in the circle of his acquaintances. He tends to refer to this information in a rest mode, as to something interesting, but not necessary.

    This type makes its predictions, relying on previous experience, starting from the fact that events are more likely to repeat than something unexpected will happen. Lessons from past experience, both his own and someone else's, are an important element of his worldview.

    Dreisers are interested in studying trends, the connection of events, comparing the past, present and future, watching how everything changes in the world. He does not feel internal resistance when working with such information
    .

    it just sounds earily similar to MBTI ISFP... subjective value system + heavy general sensing+Ni HA, valuing aesthetics as well as impact. The subjective ethics part would apply to EII as well.. e_e these aren't ppl who can be relied upon to have moral values or just values which are in line with the majority. Idk, imagine someone kinda like Jane Lane.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 12-23-2020 at 08:58 PM.

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    @shotgunfingers


    Shot, I think in this case we do need to step back and look at the descriptions to see the end result. That an ESI can come up with their own morality does not translate into jovial mbti ISFP. ESI’s creativity in the moral realm will still feel stereotypical for the type, e.g.: wearing a black ribbon during a period mourning even if it’s become old-fashioned – still a product that patently belongs to a serious quadra (I mean in older people not the young probably). ESIs work harder than SEIs, so it’s more difficult to tag them to mbti ISFP, who shies away from schedules, than SEIs. Typical complaints about ISFPs resemble more those that can be made about SEIs than ESIs and that is the shared wisdom of how that community sees the types.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    @shotgunfingers


    Shot, I think in this case we do need to step back and look at the descriptions to see the end result. That an ESI can come up with their own morality does not translate into jovial mbti ISFP. ESI’s creativity in the moral realm will still feel stereotypical for the type, e.g.: wearing a black ribbon during a period mourning even if it’s become old-fashioned – still a product that patently belongs to a serious quadra (I mean in older people not the young probably). ESIs work harder than SEIs, so it’s more difficult to tag them to mbti ISFP, who shies away from schedules, than SEIs. Typical complaints about ISFPs resemble more those that can be made about SEIs than ESIs and that is the shared wisdom of how that community sees the types.
    lol you are telling a Ti lead to consider what the community thinks. To put it simply: I don't care what they think.. ^^' eh sry.

    "ESI is not characterized by adherence to principles in matters of etiquette, politeness and behavioral norms. ESI, as a rule, approaches behavior quite flexibly, adjusting it to a specific situation and a specific person. At the same time, he may unexpectedly manifest his own behavioral attitudes, which are very different from the generally accepted ones. But they do not appear on an ongoing basis, but rather chaotically." - see above

    They have Fe ignoring. A lot of these socially conforming or driving behaviors are the logical result of Fe valuing types, such as SEI. Fe means caring about the object's emotional information aka caring about what other people feel, value and so on. A Fe lead is Fi ignoring, meaning they will care more about what other people feel and their own subjective values mainly enter the picture to support that. Thats why Fe leads demonstrate sociability, pathos, emotional slogans, passion and manage the overall emotional atmosphere aka inspire or scare or whatever needs to be done to manage other people's emotional information. ESI as Fe ignoring only cares about this information IF it is somehow useful to their Fi lead's subjective values system, so they don;t really care about being polite or about behavioral norms, etiquette... ^^' or wearing black at a funeral, unless that is specifically part of their subjective values. Gammas are by valued functions: first and foremost hardcore individualists.

    Being serious quadra does not mean the quadra itself behaves in ways which are commonly accepted to be "mature" in society. It just means the quadra values Te-Fi over Ti-Fe. The quadric traits referring to this are Subjectivist aka Merry (Ti with Fe) vs Objectivist (Te with Fi) aka Serious. That is subjective theoretical systems logic with caring about other people's emotional information vs objective pragmatic logic with caring about what relationships exist between people, mainly how oneself relates to them.

    To simplify: what I think+what they feel VS. what they think+what I feel

    e_e fucking hell, Ben's videos are always so low quality and full of random Ne..

    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 12-24-2020 at 12:29 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    "ESI is not characterized by adherence to principles in matters of etiquette, politeness and behavioral norms. ESI, as a rule, approaches behavior quite flexibly, adjusting it to a specific situation and a specific person. At the same time, he may unexpectedly manifest his own behavioral attitudes, which are very different from the generally accepted ones. But they do not appear on an ongoing basis, but rather chaotically." - see above

    They have Fe ignoring. A lot of these socially conforming or driving behaviors are the logical result of Fe valuing types, such as SEI. Fe means caring about the object's emotional information aka caring about what other people feel, value and so on. A Fe lead is Fi ignoring, meaning they will care more about what other people feel and their own subjective values mainly enter the picture to support that. Thats why Fe leads demonstrate sociability, pathos, emotional slogans, passion and manage the overall emotional atmosphere aka inspire or scare or whatever needs to be done to manage other people's emotional information. ESI as Fe ignoring only cares about this information IF it is somehow useful to their Fi lead's subjective values system, so they don;t really care about being polite or about behavioral norms, etiquette... ^^' or wearing black at a funeral, unless that is specifically part of their subjective values. Gammas are by valued functions: first and foremost hardcore individualists.

    Being serious quadra does not mean the quadra itself behaves in ways which are commonly accepted to be "mature" in society. It just means the quadra values Te-Fi over Ti-Fe. The quadric traits referring to this are Subjectivist aka Merry (Ti with Fe) vs Objectivist (Te with Fi) aka Serious. That is subjective theoretical systems logic with caring about other people's emotional information vs objective pragmatic logic with caring about what relationships exist between people, mainly how oneself relates to them.

    To simplify: what I think+what they feel VS. what they think+what I feel

    Example:

    Yes! Thank you! A good example of ESI would be Queen Victoria who wore black all the time after Prince Albert died. She even wore black to her children’s weddings (which is messed up) but all she cared about was expressing her deep sadness losing Albert that it override whatever the conventional Fe atmosphere was (parades, weddings, etc.).

    Although the Fe egos are most adamant about following social protocols and making sure others do it too, I think the Fi selectiveness extends to all the Fi egos. When I was 11, I went to my paternal grandfather’s funeral refusing to wear black because I hated him. I hated that he treated my dad poorly and constantly insulted and humiliated my dad in front of the family (my dad is the black sheep of his family with 7 siblings). Grandpa even encouraged his other kids to look down upon my dad (my dad’s siblings). Even after the whole family found out that my grandpa left his house and boat to my dad and his entire savings to me, it still didn’t change the fact I hated him for how he treated us like we were nothing and pitted the entire family to be against my dad. I mean it’s cool that me and my dad inherited in the end because my grandpa was a cantankerous, austere confrontational LSI (my dad too, but that’s another story) who was suspicious of everyone so he had to test all his kids and grandkids to see who had a spine so he could decide on who would inherit his money. I think it was a really super mean 1D Fe tactic which lasted basically all my dad’s life. The kids and grandkids who kissed his ass got nothing (they’re mostly Alpha SFs) which points out that my grandpa wasn’t playing Fi favorites.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    lol you are telling a Ti lead to consider what the community thinks. To put it simply: I don't care what they think.. ^^' eh sry.
    I’m not saying you should consider. I’m stating that accepting that conversion should be confusing if the intention is to do a cross over because of how the types are spoken of in the community, so it’s bound to be unecessarily constricting. Why the disparity? Because the feel of the quadra carries into those mbti types, which is evident, but you are keen on transforming defining traits like hard-working moralistic mbti ISFJ into SEI and light-hearted and careless ISFPs into ESI because ESI would choose to wear a black ribbon and, apparantly, so would laid-back ISFP after they spend some time, what is that they wrote about them, “content with theoretically exploring new concepts”. I’m not sold.
    Last edited by Rusal; 12-24-2020 at 02:04 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    I’m not saying you should consider. I’m stating that accepting that conversion should be confusing if the intention is to do a cross over because of how the types are spoken of in the community, so it’s bound to be unecessarily constricting. Why the disparity? Because the feel of the quadra carries into those mbti types, which is evident, but you are keen on transforming defining traits like hard-working moralistic mbti ISFJ into SEI and light-hearted and careless ISFPs into ESI because ESI would choose to wear a black ribbon and, apparantly, so would laid-back ISFP after they spend some time, what is that they wrote about them, “content with theoretically exploring new concepts”. I’m not sold.
    I'm explaining the Ti logic behind the types, its pretty much just model A at this point , what kind of ESI or SEI someone is depends on a lot of other factors which are not socionics related imo.. I think ppl in the community rely too much on stereotypes, which lead to mistypes and worse, negative to bad attitudes towards other types in general for no logical reason other than misunderstanding. I'm not trying to convince you specifically, I don't know you, I'm not interested in getting to know you or to type you. I merely used ESI and SEI to explain how and for what Ti reasons one would go about converting socionics into mbti.

    I will use LSI to ISTP as those are my types. Plus I have more information regarding the reasons beyond DCNH.
    One of the more compelling reasons for LSI to ISTP every time is the temperament. As Gulenko said in my temperament assessment, how a LSI processes information is more like that of ISTP, namely not storing data to be processed or not relying on good memory, but quickly processing the data at hand in order to understand the system one is dealing with (Ti-Se):

    The respondent notes that knowledge is not stored in his memory in an orderly manner. Since internal communication and presentation of accumulated data in a more chaotic form what corresponds to the second function rather than the first one, the assumption about rational organization of the respondent's psyche is confirmed. Logic processes and gives solutions to the outer world, quickly addressing the data accumulated by the sensing. The first function (logic) can be compared to the processor, and the second function (sensing) to memory. This is a mental circuit that is used by the logic-sensor types.
    This temperament is called balanced-stable.
    IF this is true, it means its the other way around for SLI, which is more like how Si in MBTI is described, namely having good memory for data, specifically sensory data. Considering Si and Te valuing, SLI should theoretically be ISTJ.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 12-24-2020 at 03:21 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    I'm explaining the Ti logic behind the types, its pretty much just model A at this point
    Not really and that’s the issue: model A for SEI does not result in a responsible and hard-working mbti type that is well-organized. We’re beating a dead mule at this point.
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    Dunno. How much is this about Keirsey? I think what Keirsey did was a marketing gimmick. To maximize the profits by using section of a society that is quite well settled as someone to blame for SP's/NF's or whatever misfortune = lots of $. Which makes it even more questionable to cash in for pity, lol.
    MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
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