Kristiina admits that she's not ENTj! :D

[Kristiina]

Long story short, I'm ENFj. Read only the first paragraph. Look at this chart. But I have excellent relations with INTps (PS! ENFjs normally supervise INTps), so I think I must be ENFj extreme - subtype.


extra information.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
It has nothing to do with FDG moving to beta, it has nothing to do with your votes on "my type" poll. I don't even think my self-perception has changed... Everything points toward ENxj. I used to think I was mostly ENTj, but actually ENFj also makes sense, if I leave a huge amount of things out of the equation. I have never tested as an "F" type in any test ever (I'm pretty sure). I rarely test as an extrovert in MBTI and -dominant types not supposed to type as introverts. Ok, here goes...

ENFj
--I overlooked the Reinin dichotomies and -types won. Especially ENFj and beta in general. The chart that says it all. It's even color-coded and pretty. (the markings on the bottom of the chart show which types would pick the same thing I picked. S=sensing, N=intuitive, E= extroverted, I= Introverted)
--I think I do show more emotion than gamma NTs usually do.
--I guess I do fit beta better, when it comes to my attitude and reactions.
--Yes, I do show a lot of facial expression and body language.

Why I argued with ENFj before.
--Blissful supervision argues with the entire socionics theory IMO.
--Spending more than 3 hours in a crowd makes me tired and weary. ExFx my ass!
--More similarity with INTps than gamma NFs.
--No will or ability to sympathize with others, let alone strangers.
--EQ<<<IQ. If you have ever taken any "emotional IQ" (EQ) tests, you would know that no Fe-dominant should be able to get 85-90. I did. Same thing with "spot the fake smile" and similar tests. And I'm not good at spotting bad actors. I can only tell when someone is acting REALLY bad.
--Small talk dies out after a while. I just lose the energy that kept me going when I started talking with that person.
--According to how I see , it's my least favorite function. types are a lot easier to understand.
--I don't feel like ENFps are my quasi-identicals, but I've heard similar things about beta NF + delta NF relations before, so it doesn't change much.


I must be ENFj extreme -subtype. That's just about as good as ENTj -subtype. There's not much difference, especially with being weaker than usual, being stronger than usual. Also taking into consideration that I have no particular interest for and active usage is one of my most thrilling past-times.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------

And LOL!!!! @ Joy finding out last. Hahahaaa.... She put me on ignore yesterday, I don't think she has changed it already.

[meatburger]

Ooooh. Thats a big bomb lol.

I think a few people thought something was amiss. I hope you feel nice and comfortable with your new type. Your command of the English language is good and i did always think you showed a little feeling in your posts.

Anyway even though were now Quazi-Identicals, im not holding it against you. Your still my friend

just dont crush me with your giant sword oh mighty beta warrior..

[XoX]

--I overlooked the Reinin dichotomies and -types won. Especially ENFj and beta in general. The chart that says it all. It's even color-coded and pretty.

Wow I have to take a look at that chart. it IS pretty. Don't take it offline! I hope I can find myself using the dichotomies. They seem to make more sense to me than most of the type descriptions or functional descriptions do. At least it is easier to evaluate myself against them. Anyways I already feel like submitting to your new avatar. lol.

[stevENTj]

LOL, I thought this was my thread.


Well ENFj makes more sense than ENTj did IMHO, and you know why on that. You just didn't seem like a logical type to me. I was getting more of an ESFp-ish vibe before, but if you say ENFj then I'm not going to argue.


cheers

[Kristiina]

lol, I'd love to be ESFp. It would be nice to be the same type as Hard Gay (honestly, that's like the only certain ESFp I have seen in action).

You were somewhat right. I fit gamma better than beta. I did change my type, but it didn't change me. I'll post more in beta, but I'll love the gamma energy more. Or should I say gamma low-energy. I'll probably bounce between beta and gamma, because I feel like I'm in the middle of those two.

I still have ENTj relations, so I can't differ from the real ENTjs that much.

[xiuxiu]

oh

[Gilly]

I'm not going to say anything, other than I'm glad that you've come around.

[Kristiina]

No one is saying much. That sucks.

[Joy]

I think people want to be polite and not say "I told you so" or something like that.

How do you feel about this change? Are you a little disappointed? Or a little relieved?

[Kristiina]

I somewhat feel like people think, "Oh, Kristiina's talking about type. AGAIN. Boooooring. What else is new".

People can't really say, "I told you so", because some people thought I was ISFp and many thought I was ISFj. About 5 people had voted for ENFj, but I had already talked with about 4-5 people about the possible type change... There are very few people who could actually say that they knew I was ENFj. I'll stick with this type.

I feel disappointed in socionics. If I'm ENFj, that means that all tests were wrong, and socionics relations don't work... Or maybe that socionics type is not something you're born with. At the same time I'm somewhat hopeful. Maybe ENFj is my ticket to real glory. Maybe by inner-life will be healed if I learn to use my true functions and I'll live happily ever after. Maybe I'll try and it won't help me, but I'll start supervising Erkki and then it will ruin everything. Maybe I'll learn to control Fe and I can start switching between Te and Fe for the best results in my life...

I'm confused about everything now. I see many possible futures, but I have no way to choose between them.

I told Erkki, "Look on the bright side. At least my dual is not the kind of person who would sweap me off my feet and make me fall deeply and passionately in love before I even realize it."

I did make a decision to spend more time with my ISTj friend. I'll also have to find a few ESTps in my life. Preferably female, just in case. :wink:

[Joy]

I feel disappointed in socionics. If I'm ENFj, that means that all tests were wrong, and socionics relations don't work...

I think a lot of intelligent people test as NTs regardless of their true type (and men test as logical types, but that's a different subject). Are you certain that the people in your life are typed correctly? Have you thought about their dichotomies?

At the same time I'm somewhat hopeful. Maybe ENFj is my ticket to real glory. Maybe by inner-life will be healed if I learn to use my true functions and I'll live happily ever after. Maybe I'll try and it won't help me, but I'll start supervising Erkki and then it will ruin everything. Maybe I'll learn to control Fe and I can start switching between Te and Fe for the best results in my life...

I'm confused about everything now. I see many possible futures, but I have no way to choose between them.

I told Erkki, "Look on the bright side. At least my dual is not the kind of person who would sweap me off my feet and make me fall deeply and passionately in love before I even realize it."

This is exactly the problem that a lot of socionics hobbiest have... they see their socionics type as something that shapes who they are and what they do (instead of vice versa). I think some people have had problems with their relationships and self-image because of it. I know when I thought I was ISFp, I felt like shit about myself... I thought I was not acting like an ISFp because I was very unhealthy and depressed... I would think, "I'm not good at any of the things ISFps are naturally inclined to be good at... I must be really fucked up." I also looked back at periods when I was healthy and was accomplishing a lot and wonder if I was just being manic or something. I felt like crap because I thought I was in an ENTp/ISFp dual relationship, but I was the one who needed help being grounded and paying attention to the present and the physical world. It didn't seem like I had anything to offer an ENTp... I think those types of thought processes are extremely unhealthy.

[stevENTj]

I feel disappointed in socionics. If I'm ENFj, that means that all tests were wrong, and socionics relations don't work... Or maybe that socionics type is not something you're born with.

That's nonsense. For one thing the tests are imperfect themselves, but good test results also require that the test taker be completely unbiased and objective about their nature which is much harder than it sounds. And intertype relations also depend on your or your friends abilities to type themselves accurately which is also highly suspect. Look how often people realize they're something else here and didn't get it right the first, second, or even third time. And people are not perfect white squares or black circles either. Read this. And not everything in relationships is dependent on socionics. According to Socionics I should get along great with ESFp's, but what about an ESFp with completely opposite life/political views as mine. Do you think we'd get along fine then? Hell no.

At the same time I'm somewhat hopeful. Maybe ENFj is my ticket to real glory. Maybe by inner-life will be healed if I learn to use my true functions and I'll live happily ever after. Maybe I'll try and it won't help me, but I'll start supervising Erkki and then it will ruin everything. Maybe I'll learn to control Fe and I can start switching between Te and Fe for the best results in my life...

I'm confused about everything now. I see many possible futures, but I have no way to choose between them.

Sure you do. You control your own destiny, but don't try to be one thing or another thing because of some test or some theory. Be who you are, do what seems natural, and don't listen to people who say you should be or should not be a certain way. Just be yourself. Only then will you find happiness.

Going from an MBTI "INTJ" to an INTP to an INxp to an ENxj to an ENTj to an INTp I've always been "me". I haven't tried to be anything, other than myself, and you should try to do the same.

[Kristiina]

StevENTj, I didn't mean to say that I lost faith in socionics because I wasn't a perfect fit in the ENFj type. I mean, I lost any belief that type predicts personality, because IRL I would rather pass for an insane INTp than a normal ENFj. And I could even describe Fe-PoLR in all it's complexity in myself. Fe as my biggest weakness that I can't even try to overcome.

MBTI INTJ->INTj->(ISTj)->ENTj->ENFj. Life is far from perfect.

[XoX]

My CV has more types than all of you together! I'm not sure it is a merit though but basically...

MBTI INTJ -> MBTI INTP -> MBTI ISTP -> ISTp -> ... -> INFj ????

Why does everyone start their type "career" as MBTI INTJ? I mean raise your hands everyone who has been MBTI INTJ at some point!

I made a poll about it. Vote and discuss there not here
http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=5820

[Expat]

And I could even describe Fe-PoLR in all it's complexity in myself. Fe as my biggest weakness that I can't even try to overcome.

But the thing is, despite your self-perception of as weakness -- you clearly value it very much. You do use it a lot when writing, so perhaps your problem IRL is more due to setting very high standards to yourself in that regard.

[Creepy-pokeball]

And I could even describe Fe-PoLR in all it's complexity in myself. Fe as my biggest weakness that I can't even try to overcome.

But the thing is, despite your self-perception of as weakness -- you clearly value it very much. You do use it a lot when writing, so perhaps your problem IRL is more due to setting very high standards to yourself in that regard.

Whether or not the part is true, it is important to relax. Despite any type, this is helpful for clarity and sanity. Setting rediculously high standards is mental suicide.

[Kristiina]

I can't relax. I took the summer off to relax and ended up doing much worse. Ok, actually I do look relaxed. Like a happy healthy INxp, but something must be wrong, because I'm overwhelmed with memories of my entire life. I used to think there was something wrong with how I think. I thought that my memories sometimes make me too emotional for no good reason.

Now I think that all of my most hated features ARE my type. lol.

[implied]

lol


i kept wondering why you and FDG both thought all my ISTp friends were ISFps!

[Creepy-pokeball]

I can't relax. I took the summer off to relax and ended up doing much worse. Ok, actually I do look relaxed. Like a happy healthy INxp, but something must be wrong, because I'm overwhelmed with memories of my entire life. I used to think there was something wrong with how I think. I thought that my memories sometimes make me too emotional for no good reason.

Now I think that all of my most hated features ARE my type. lol.

I like exploring memories. If anything of socionics (whether true or not), it lets me explore things from my past from within. Sometimes it is good to say goodbye to them in a positive way one at a time.

[maze]

I can't relax. I took the summer off to relax and ended up doing much worse. Ok, actually I do look relaxed. Like a happy healthy INxp, but something must be wrong, because I'm overwhelmed with memories of my entire life. I used to think there was something wrong with how I think. I thought that my memories sometimes make me too emotional for no good reason.

Now I think that all of my most hated features ARE my type. lol.

I like exploring memories. If anything of socionics (whether true or not), it lets me explore things from my past from within. Sometimes it is good to say goodbye to them in a positive way one at a time.

Awww, that was nice Jadae. I like "one at a time." That way they each get the proper attention during their send-off." Some of them, I kick to the moon and others I give a one-two punch. That may not sound positive, but it is. It issss.

BTW Kristiina, good luck with all this.

[FDG]

lol


i kept wondering why you and FDG both thought all my ISTp friends were ISFps!

what do you mean?

[Joy]

Kristiina thought they were her conflictor and assumed that meant they were ISFps. You picked your conflicting quadra and assumed it was alpha.

[FDG]

Kristiina thought they were her conflictor and assumed that meant they were ISFps. You picked your conflicting quadra and assumed it was alpha.

Naaah you shouldn't think that my brain works in such a complex fashion. I just looked at their pic and thought "ISTp/ISFp/whatever".

[Joy]

the idea is that you had incorrect ideas of what those types are based on experiences with individuals you know irl

[implied]

joy: exactly!!!

[Creepy-pokeball]

I can't relax. I took the summer off to relax and ended up doing much worse. Ok, actually I do look relaxed. Like a happy healthy INxp, but something must be wrong, because I'm overwhelmed with memories of my entire life. I used to think there was something wrong with how I think. I thought that my memories sometimes make me too emotional for no good reason.

Now I think that all of my most hated features ARE my type. lol.

I like exploring memories. If anything of socionics (whether true or not), it lets me explore things from my past from within. Sometimes it is good to say goodbye to them in a positive way one at a time.

Awww, that was nice Jadae. I like "one at a time." That way they each get the proper attention during their send-off." Some of them, I kick to the moon and others I give a one-two punch. That may not sound positive, but it is. It issss.

BTW Kristiina, good luck with all this.

Im glad you liked it lol in a silly way Slava's lemmings pic reminded me of old memories. Sure, they werent crucial memories but they were enough to tell my best friend on my cell phone all about it and how we used to play it.

[Kristiina]

the idea is that you had incorrect ideas of what those types are based on experiences with individuals you know irl

wrong.

There are about 30 people I have typed IRL. There are about 1-3 people whose types I trust enough to use for type-assumptions. I usually just use general tendencies and high-tech aristocracy.

Implied, how do you know these were ISTps? Can you be sure? And if I VI'ed many of your ISTp friends as ISFp, don't you think it's close enough? Oh, and is this paragraph a proof that I'm a taciturn? lol.

[Kristiina]

Where are all the people who think I don't have any intuition? Where are all the people who are supposed to be shouting "Nooooo... you're ISFj!"

Why isn't anyone arguing with the type ENFj? The chart is very good, but I'm amazed that it had so much power.

Argue that I have >> . That's what I've heard for a long time. I'm not ENTj, but I do sound like an ENFj?

[XoX]

Where are all the people who think I don't have any intuition? Where are all the people who are supposed to be shouting "Nooooo... you're ISFj!"

It is your Avatar that makes them believers And I think many people have slowly accepted that you are Exxj. And you are into stuff that mostly intuitives / types are into. The fact that it was hard to accept you as ENTj was (at least for me) not the functional preferences but something about your character. The dichotomies explain it quite well why I didn't get ENTj "vibe" even though you made good cases why your functions would be those of an ENTj. It was the aristocratic thinking perhaps and the way you try to affect people's opinions that made it hard to think ENTj. Your arguments are not pure . They are somehow formulated to crawl into people's heads and pull switches there. is used as a tool in that process but the "style" is more in my opinion. ENTjs seem to just put the facts on the table and see what comes out. You on the other hand seem to spoonfeed the facts directly into people's brain. I would think that is another sign of . Also the general "being hard on yourself" and certain negativity was not too ENTj. They are quite upbeat and don't judge themselves so hard.

Hmm..I think I said you are ESTp at some point which was third in your chart I think I also said ESFp though which was quite low

Now you could make a surprise turn and say "I was just kidding. I'm really an ENTj. I was just trying to show you how easily you believe what you want to believe." but that wouldn't be very ENTj thing to do so it might be counterproductive

[Kristiina]

Where are all the people who think I don't have any intuition? Where are all the people who are supposed to be shouting "Nooooo... you're ISFj!"

It is your Avatar that makes them believers And I think many people have slowly accepted that you are Exxj. And you are into stuff that mostly intuitives / types are into. The fact that it was hard to accept you as ENTj was (at least for me) not the functional preferences but something about your character. The dichotomies explain it quite well why I didn't get ENTj "vibe" even though you made good cases why your functions would be those of an ENTj. It was the aristocratic thinking perhaps and the way you try to affect people's opinions that made it hard to think ENTj. Your arguments are not pure . They are somehow formulated to crawl into people's heads and pull switches there. is used as a tool in that process but the "style" is more in my opinion. ENTjs seem to just put the facts on the table and see what comes out. You on the other hand seem to spoonfeed the facts directly into people's brain. I would think that is another sign of . Also the general "being hard on yourself" and certain negativity was not too ENTj. They are quite upbeat and don't judge themselves so hard.

Hmm..I think I said you are ESTp at some point which was third in your chart I think I also said ESFp though which was quite low

Now you could make a surprise turn and say "I was just kidding. I'm really an ENTj. I was just trying to show you how easily you believe what you want to believe." but that wouldn't be very ENTj thing to do so it might be counterproductive

Oh wow. This is probably the first time I see the ENFj type as a good thing. Now I feel positive. I can put things into people's heads. Yay. For a couple of days I had been thinking that me being Fe-dominant just meant that I was actually wrong in many intellectual battles and I didn't realize it and I kept "proving myself" in a very non-Te (illogical, false) way.

lol, It would be funny to say that I made an error in that chart and I'm actually ESTp. I'm not planning on ever changing my type. So this thread might be my last type-discussion....

[Expat]

And if I VI'ed many of your ISTp friends as ISFp, don't you think it's close enough?

I would say it is, yes.

Where are all the people who think I don't have any intuition? Where are all the people who are supposed to be shouting "Nooooo... you're ISFj!"

Why isn't anyone arguing with the type ENFj? The chart is very good, but I'm amazed that it had so much power.

Argue that I have >> . That's what I've heard for a long time. I'm not ENTj, but I do sound like an ENFj?

Personally the problem I always had with ISFj for you was your vivid description of weak which I thought could be a very "inactive" 8th function but I never found that convincing.

As for , it's difficult to see online unless you are dominant I think and often not even then.

Your is more visible than your but, duh.

[Expat]

For a couple of days I had been thinking that me being Fe-dominant just meant that I was actually wrong in many intellectual battles and I didn't realize it and I kept "proving myself" in a very non-Te (illogical, false) way.

Being does not make you wrong, or even weak, in "intellectual battles" (and why do you use the term "battle"? Why is it always about winning?); nor being makes you right.

You can use logical arguments. I have no doubt that you do it very well in your field of work. The problem is that, when they don't work quickly enough when discussing with other people, you very very quickly turn to emotional or arguments, such as in, "so, no more ISFj-talk!!!" (I never forgot that one) which for logical argumentation mean zero. Nada. Or to attributing sinister motives to others - "they don't wan't to accept an ENTj woman" etc etc.

It's not the "weakness" of your logic that makes it obvious that you are not a logical type -- it's the speed with which you abandon logic, without even realizing it.

[Kristiina]

You can use logical arguments. I have no doubt that you do it very well in your field of work. The problem is that, when they don't work quickly enough when discussing with other people, you very very quickly turn to emotional or arguments, such as in, "so, no more ISFj-talk!!!" (I never forgot that one) which for logical argumentation mean zero. Nada. Or to attributing sinister motives to others - "they don't wan't to accept an ENTj woman" etc etc.

I can't quite explain why, but this really pissed me off. It's like, I develop, things change, everything keeps evolving, but this must be the 3rd time you have reminded me of these things.

People made the stupidest reasoning when trying to make me look ISFj, so after 3 months of this BS I got really annoyed and tried to force people to stop calling me ISFj with no good reason. It didn't work. They STILL call me ISFj. And reading what I said then just takes me back exactly into the moment when I was in rage. It brings back the feeling of being hopelessly stuck in one place. The same with people not accepting me as an ENTj. When I read you remind me of it, I start seeing black and red and I feel like no matter what I say or do, people won't even listen to why I have typed myself ENTj and why not something else.

This post made me rage, but don't worry, Expat, I'm not angry at you. You just fell into the aristocratic category, "people who remind others of the past even when there's no need for it.", but nothing else changed.

[Creepy-aurora_faerie]

ENFj works better than ENTj imo

Don't really have any reasoning. I don't really get any sort of essense from you in any of your posts, I didn't even read them for a long time after you joined. After I noticed you posting a lot, then I started reading, and even then I feel the urge to scan instead of read. But I think I like you.

[Expat]

Sorry Kristiina . I guess we just hit each others' role functions. Now I feel bad.

What I find most interesting about this is that the only clear disagreement in Reinin Dichotomies for ENFj intuitive is that you identify better with Calculating rather than Careless -- all the rest fits very well, which is evidence that the Dichotomies, if taken as a whole, do point out in the right direction.

Calculating would clearly fit only ESFj and ESTj for EJ, and does not fit any of the other types considered for you, so either it means nothing or perhaps there is disagreement as to what the dichotomy means.

[Kristiina]

Sorry Kristiina . I guess we just hit each others' role functions. Now I feel bad.

I was frustrated, I expressed it, you reacted to it and expressed it. The event has now ended. It doesn't have any "open emotions" attached to it anymore, so it's ok. The memory of it is neutral now. Don't feel bad. It was silly of me to get emotional over something like this. I don't want to blame my type for my mistakes, but I think it's justified in this situation.

What I find most interesting about this is that the only clear disagreement in Reinin Dichotomies for ENFj intuitive is that you identify better with Calculating rather than Careless -- all the rest fits very well, which is evidence that the Dichotomies, if taken as a whole, do point out in the right direction.

Calculating would clearly fit only ESFj and ESTj for EJ, and does not fit any of the other types considered for you, so either it means nothing or perhaps there is disagreement as to what the dichotomy means.

INxx and ESxx types are calculating. I assumed that this dichotomy is more strongly affected by the subtype. There has been talk about people with creative subtype acting more similarly to the mirror type temperament. In stead of actively running around doing stuff like other ENFjs, I act like an INxp most of the time. When planning something, I start moving slowly and I'll spend time slowly contemplating and imagining the possibilities... That's not very EJ thing to do.

A question. Don't ENTjs have emotions attached to the memories? The feeling of the situation, the emotional summary of what happened. I usually remember the final emotion first, how does it work for ENTjs?

[Expat]

INxx and ESxx types are calculating. I assumed that this dichotomy is more strongly affected by the subtype. There has been talk about people with creative subtype acting more similarly to the mirror type temperament. In stead of actively running around doing stuff like other ENFjs, I act like an INxp most of the time. When planning something, I start moving slowly and I'll spend time slowly contemplating and imagining the possibilities... That's not very EJ thing to do.

Yes that makes sense but it would mean that the subtypes affect this Dichotomy in a different way from that indicated in Smilingeyes's charts.

Of course, it may be the case that a Dichotomy which is related indeed to INXX and ESXX as you say would be affected the way you described, while the Quadra-related dichotomies are the ones who really follow those charts -- those charts have to be validated, obviously.

A question. Don't ENTjs have emotions attached to the memories? The feeling of the situation, the emotional summary of what happened. I usually remember the final emotion first, how does it work for ENTjs?

Are you relating that to a dichotomy?

I do have emotions attached to memories, some of them very strongly. But I think I have to "conjure up" the factual memory first, and that then brings out the emotion.

Now, if you are talking about a situation involving a sequence of variable emotions - yes, I think I remember the final emotions before the early ones. Which I suppose would be connected to if anything.