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Thread: LIIs/INTjs and competitiveness (or lack thereof)

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    Default LIIs/INTjs and competitiveness (or lack thereof)

    One thing that I dislike is aggressive competitiveness. For example, if I am skilled or "gifted" in a particular area, I tend to dislike doing something pertaining to that area if others push it upon me to "be the best". Here is an example:

    Backstory: I apparently have a "gift" for music, whatever that means. I'll try saying this quickly as I hate talking about myself in a way that could be interpreted as boastful, as I'm only providing this information to support a character trait. Anyway, in school, I was in the band. I was highly skilled at my instrument. Skilled enough to audition for "All-Region" and "All-State" organizations, sponsored by the school. My parents were gently supportive; however, other people, like my private teacher and other students, were pushy in a way that was essentially "you HAVE to make such and such band" or "you MUST practice 50 hours a night" (exaggeration) and "beat everyone else", etc., without considering that maybe I didn't want to. I had lots of schoolwork, and these people expected me to do the many hours a night of homework required in American high schools AND practice my instrument 3+ hours a night and somehow remain sane. In the end, I decided to remove this activity from my life, as it caused me unnecessary stress. However, I have always loved music, and so I still find ways to exercise this hobby of mine (composing, piano, guitar, still play my instrument a bit).

    I was thinking of this, and decided that it related to people stressing my Se PoLR (not wanting to be pressured, to be told what to do, etc.) and people not supplementing my Fe DS (most of the people were not encouraging in any way, showed little excitement when I exercised my talent, etc.).

    Thoughts? Can any other LIIs relate?
    Last edited by ghost of forum past; 12-20-2015 at 01:59 AM.

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    I was a prodigy too and I lost interest when they told me I had to do marching band and then I had to do all that crap for it. I was late to nearly everything from then on and my interest completely dropped out. I hated marching band and being required to attend it.

    My first lesson person(well second, but first legitimate teacher) didn't even play my instrument but guided me to first chair all-state because he made it fun. Honestly, I provided the competitiveness myself. I was a little asshole and liked to hold my talents above other people's heads and was part of the source of admiration from people in middle and high school.

    My second teacher was a guy I didn't click with. That and waking up to the adult world of illegitimacy and problems and I was left completely disinterested in what I saw to be a dysfunctional grouping of people who would not allow me to live my life as I wanted.

    I still find losing interest in music to be one of the most unfortunate things that has ever happened to me, because if I had stayed on that track I would have been golden.

    I never liked focusing on "being the best" though. I did like the benefits it brought. But when I sat down to practice, all I wanted to do was hear the music played correctly and confront a series of challenges to do so.

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    Marching band is hell, I agree. They essentially took up a month of summer, 10 hours a day, so pasty guys like myself would get skin cancer. I think that if I had had a music teacher that made it fun (and the only one that came close was my mother teaching me piano), I would have had more enthusiasm for music in general, but thankfully it was not vanquished completely.

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    I'd also like to add that I can be very "playfully" competitive, such as when playing a video game with friends, etc. The second that people actually become angry, or take the game/competition overly seriously, is when I tune out. Playful teasing is something that I enjoy and partake in when among friends.

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    I work with three LII's, and my sister is also LII, and none of them are what I would call competitive. (However, that's coming from an LIE's perspective. ) They are what I would call competent, and they want to be seen that way, but have a really hard time talking themselves up. Apparently, they think that other people should just see how competent they are, and give them full credit for being competent in the areas that they choose to work in.

    This, of course, is not what happens, since life (in popular culture) is all about image and BS until it is not, but that point is often only reached when it is too late. (I'm not discounting Relativity or Penicillin, but you were talking about Marching Band, so I will, too.)

    One thing I've seen in LII's is that they fold and stop playing the game when someone attacks them. And this is a shame, because they really are competent, and normally the person attacking them is not nearly as competent, but is loud, aggressive, and has merely discovered their weak points. The attacks usually come in the form of public accusations of laziness or incompetence on the part of the LII, which the LII is not prepared for. After they recover their senses (usually an hour or two later) they will say something like, "Why did that person say that? I'm completely right here. And I'm certainly not lazy."

    The only defense I can think of in these cases, because the LII's are not naturally competitive (people-on-people, that is - they do strive very hard to find the best solutions), is to have them work in areas where they don't have to engage in real-time conflicts, or to have a boss who knows what is going on and can cut short BS arguments in the conflict.

    I would like to add that the most reasonable (in conflict) LII I know is Dualized. But he still behaves as above.

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    Sort of tangential, but the LIIs I've encountered don't like the idea of being salesmen with respect to themselves. They consider it disingenuous to persuade others about their merits through rhetorical tricks rather than objectively.

    --- I couldn't agree more.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Sort of tangential, but the LIIs I've encountered don't like the idea of being salesmen with respect to themselves. They consider it disingenuous to persuade others about their merits through rhetorical tricks rather than objectively.

    --- I couldn't agree more.
    I agree completely. That's what I was trying to say in the beginning of my post.

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    Yeah, I could rant about that all day. But it's the night.

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    Yeah I more or less relate to the ideas expressed here.. I dislike competitive environments, besides playfully so ones.

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    i don't think real LII's are averse to competition in a general sense. it is just here-and-now, in-the-moment, sports and combat style competition they avoid. when it comes to rising in the ranks of academics and social, corporate or organizational structures they relish the chance to prove themselves and contrast their competent side to others'.

    i suggest some of you find other things to attribute the roots of your insecurities to. i understand that temptation first hand but its not impossible to overcome it.

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    It could be that LIIs prefer to establish relations and environments where honesty of intent is clear. Since competitiveness is usually associated with the non-disclosure of advantageous information, it is also associated with the acceptance of dishonesty, at least in some form. Se/Ni valuing quadras could see dishonesty regarding something as related to the true nature of that object or person, whether that be its worth or its beauty.

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    In the purest sense, competing with other people is just an illusion anyway. You are only ever in competition with yourself.

    It's just people's barbaric natures from gladiator times, that damn monkey! as End would say. You try to make these things complex in your head, you just end up failing. We as humans unfortunately want to see somebody else being steam rolled and beaten, their organs and guts laid out for all to see. To masturbate furiously while k0rpsey/hannibal lector kills the stupid naive weak victim. They had it coming.

    The more depraved your fall, the more the mediocre will glee.

    If u are Se polr, or maybe just purely vulnerable and noticeably intj nerdy-ish, I would think you would just have to let all that shit go and continue to do what you enjoy. And when u end up getting really good at something, you don't care who watches. You become magically indifferent, and then that is how it appears you are "beating" others.

    Or you could just go on a real killing spree. But I'm a goody goody and don't recommend that.

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    I'd forgotten about this thread but Adam's and op's remarks really hit how I am perfectly on these things. Wish to be competent, wish to understand things, cannot understand the need for bullheadedness, and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by krieger View Post
    i don't think real LII's are averse to competition in a general sense. it is just here-and-now, in-the-moment, sports and combat style competition they avoid. when it comes to rising in the ranks of academics and social, corporate or organizational structures they relish the chance to prove themselves and contrast their competent side to others'.
    Its just the opposite for me. I don't care at all about proving my social or academic success to others but I have a major fetish for stuff like call of duty with lots of fantasy violence. I don't play sports very often (because I don't have anyone around to do it with) but when I do I take great pleasure in it. It great depends on the particular sport though, I hate grabby snatchy team-based sports like basketball but I love more chaotic all out sports like dodgeball or airsoft.

    On the subjective of whether I like competitiveness itself it greatly depends on the motivation and mood tied with it. "Vindictive competitiveness" as I call it, where people compete purely to win and/or make a mockery out of others greatly repels me. I like it when the focus is on the enjoyment of the act of competing itself rather than just winning by any means possible, a.k.a sportsmanship.

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    I'm not particuarly competitive in the literal sense of the word. I don't participate in that many competitions. But I'm quite competitive in my head in the sense that I compare myself with others all the time. Particularly in intellectual type things and level of competence at something. I think a large reason why I don't enter into many competitions is that they make me feel inadequate if I end up doing worse than the others. I already have something of an 'inferiority complex' by comparing myself to others in my head, I don't need to add on to that by entering competitions. Yes, I know I am insecure in that regard. Also, I find that some competitions stress, using any means to win, even deceptive means. I can't stand that. I'm too honest.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chips and underwear View Post
    I'm not particuarly competitive in the literal sense of the word. I don't participate in that many competitions. But I'm quite competitive in my head in the sense that I compare myself with others all the time. Particularly in intellectual type things and level of competence at something. I think a large reason why I don't enter into many competitions is that they make me feel inadequate if I end up doing worse than the others. I already have something of an 'inferiority complex' by comparing myself to others in my head, I don't need to add on to that by entering competitions. Yes, I know I am insecure in that regard. Also, I find that some competitions stress, using any means to win, even deceptive means. I can't stand that. I'm too honest.
    Wow, I can relate. You're very honest. I like to be 100% competent in things that I care about, however, I'm more indifferent to things that I don't care about.

    I don't like being seen as physically incompetent, but I certainly am a lot of the time (not in terms of strength, but knowing when to take action). When there's a lot of physical things going on all at once I sort of clam up and feel rather helpless. If everyone were following a rational criteria that were designed by myself then maybe things would be easier...

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    Quote Originally Posted by krieger View Post
    i don't think real LII's are averse to competition in a general sense. it is just here-and-now, in-the-moment, sports and combat style competition they avoid. when it comes to rising in the ranks of academics and social, corporate or organizational structures they relish the chance to prove themselves and contrast their competent side to others'.

    i suggest some of you find other things to attribute the roots of your insecurities to. i understand that temptation first hand but its not impossible to overcome it.
    it's not a logical choice, it's a human one

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    LIIs don't do well at anything ad hoc - thinking on their feet or reacting immediately to stimulus. Their open-loop processing style where input is not a priority puts us at a disadvantage for much of what we would call competition. Where we shine is being able to rationalize a lot of factors in parallel, which needs to be done unfortunately in slower time and usually in mental isolation. We would be better at golf-like competition but having to have input online for extended periods and having to pay attention to minute detail would tend to tire us mentally before other types. I also don't think we're naturals for a targeted practice regimen. We're OK for exercise that allows us opportunities to think of other things while doing it. I ran over 100km per week for 25 years but my mind was always somewhere else and many times I could not recall any part of the route.......

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    LIIs don't do well at anything ad hoc - thinking on their feet or reacting immediately to stimulus. Their open-loop processing style where input is not a priority puts us at a disadvantage for much of what we would call competition. Where we shine is being able to rationalize a lot of factors in parallel, which needs to be done unfortunately in slower time and usually in mental isolation. We would be better at golf-like competition but having to have input online for extended periods and having to pay attention to minute detail would tend to tire us mentally before other types. I also don't think we're naturals for a targeted practice regimen. We're OK for exercise that allows us opportunities to think of other things while doing it. I ran over 100km per week for 25 years but my mind was always somewhere else and many times I could not recall any part of the route.......

    a.k.a. I/O
    Yeah, I've always been the sort who prefers to come up with a plan before acting. I slow down mentally when I need to make a snap decision.

    I enjoy exercise as long as it isn't competitive, which some people are incapable of understanding and letting me do what I want.

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    It's pretty illogical to hear words like best of luck to everyone in a test if they use normal distribution.
    Tests are pretty stressful situations to be in. Time constraints and all that meaningless stuff.
    Competition in general:
    There is usually one clearly defined goal and little room for explorations. WHY?
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    I generally don't actively compete with other people, and try to avoid conflict. Or at least, I'm not upfront with other people about it. I don't like rubbing my talents in other people's faces, and prefer to show, and not tell. When it's an environment where everyone's trying to one-up each other, I don't do well, and naturally end up doing poorly, and falling in last place.

    When it comes to my strengths, I do inwardly compare myself to other people, and I'm conscious if other people are better than me. And I obsess over that, and try to outdo them. I won't act outwardly aggressive towards those people though, and outright competition makes me uncomfortable. I am very sensitive to when people outdo me then they rub it in my face. There's something that really rubs me the wrong way about those types of people.

    Even though I do compare myself to other people, when it comes to art, videoediting, and other hobbies/talents, I do it because I enjoy it. My motivation as a whole is not to one-up people. I just get like that when I'm in unhealthy, insecure mode.

    I remember once, a supervisor at a my first job was trying to make working into a competition, and I highly resented it.
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    [ ... ]
    Last edited by skosh; 05-19-2021 at 03:52 AM.

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    I've heard a lot of LIIs complain how stupid people are - they don't understand a thing, they are dumb, they don't know what a certain theory or concept really is about, most importantly they don't listen to them etc etc the list goes on.
    To my quasis, sometimes you need to compete to show people that you have a say. Good is overshadowed by the bad only if we let them.
    But maybe not applicable to you guys, continue dualizing with ESE people. They have such good grip on social matters (especially gossips) that you won't even need to fight the evil and stupidity of the world by brute force.
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    I don't like a hostile atmosphere at all. But in a friendly competition or game I can become very invested and absorbed into the competition and fun. For instance, I swam competitively as a teenager and I really enjoyed the social atmosphere -- during meets/races small groups would form from across different teams and though there was always a playful inter-team rivalry, we'd also cheer and praise friends on other teams when they did well. I've never been a social butterfly myself, but I like to be part of social environments and groups like that. And I'm not so wild about games of chance, but often when I play games of skill or strategy with other people who take it somewhat seriously,* my brain kicks into another gear to focus and I feel a mild sense of euphoria.

    *Seriously non-serious -- if any serious pressure or sense of hostility exists, I get stressed, can't think clearly, and hate the event. I don't do well in these kinds of situations at all.

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    I know a potential LII and he says that power-seeking is silly. He’s somewhat driven, but also very chill.
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