Fi PoLR

[Comparticularly Mental]

I think instictual variants in enneagram is a good way to identify the variations between how much Fi polRs care to connect but overall, not feeling any need for emotional connection is probably something more related to sociopathy or some sort of antisocial disorder than anything else. Fi polRs in my experience also care about it but they dont tailor their approach depending on closeness compared to the rest.
For example its not like Fi polRs dont seek romantic connection or care about some people more than others. They also get anxious about the expectations people who are close to them have according to descriptions.

[inaLim]

@thistle my pro/con experiences with Fi family & my PolR.

ESI
pro: stress how to recognize and mind the important things in life (people) - most relatable Fi
con: suspicious, paranoid, invasive, demanding relationship hawks - least tolerable Fi

SEE
pro: realistic about relationships, show how to be blunt/expressive and still stay on people's good side - most immediately practical Fi
con: self absorbed, iffy self awareness, delusional self image/regard, can implode their relationships in spectacular fashion and not get why - most problematic Fi


EII
pro: polite, sensitive - most idealistic Fi
con: hard to learn or work closely with, one-sided entitlement, can treat people like workhorses, can make snap accusations under stress - least relatable Fi

IEE
pro: enthusiastic about relationships, show how to win people over without excluding anyone - most tolerable Fi
con: low key envious, noncommittal, flighty - least dependable Fi

When you get to know more about a person, does it happen that a particular thing they say or share resonates strongly with you - it is something you have experienced in the past, and suddenly you remember how you felt about it at that time?

I would probably be more drawn into their story and just experiencing that in real-time if they are charismatic or expressive. I might have a lightbulb go off that it resonated, but I would not be remembering how I felt about something in the past. I doubt I would be able to remember how I felt about something, I would probably make a best guess. I can tell you in the moment, but not the past. I would not remember what the person felt about something unless they were dramatic or hard-line and consistent about it.

Maybe if it were sentiments about actions and consequences, or stimulation and excitement. But that is more like advantage/disadvantage and satisfying desires than truly being invested in an opinion or attitude. That's a convoluted way of saying it all comes down to whether Se cares, (or can be made to see it as stimulating or meaningful).

What happens inside seems to look like this: you know something new about the person and you recognize that you have been in a similar position to them, too. The shared sentiment no matter how slight or small can grow your sense of trust in a person, and there can be a significance to them having shared this innermost thought/information with you.

I would have to literally go through the experience with them to feel a shared sentiment. And even when I have been in the same position with other people I don't usually consciously relate to them thorough their sentiments. If I do share sentiments its not that significant to me. I am not generally looking for their innermost thought/information (unless I find them interesting), so if they don't give cues I will either miss it, or catch it late.

I don't usually value sentiments as feelings separate from the experience itself. I don't have anything for or against exchanging sentiments, but just doing that would become one-sided and tedious for me if it is only for icebreaking. If you're a really vivid storyteller who can make it come alive again as an experience, that's different.

Sentiments are more like a reminder or suggestion to re-create, seek, or avoid certain experiences. Or a guide to understanding something happening in your life. So the person would have to present it to me in a very specific way (as a vivid story, mystery, pattern, or suggestion for future IRL experience) for me to be interested.

The only thing that keeps me from sharing sentiments is lack of chemistry and uncertainty whether sharing will bite me iin the future. Do I even want a relationship with this person or am I obligated (family, work, friend-of-a-friend)? Are they going expect more in the future? Are they going to talk about me behind my back? Start acting entitled? Become a nag? I have no problem saying anything anonymously online or to a stranger I'll never see again. My innermost “stuff” is Ni perception, not sentiments.

The knowledge of this connection can change how you relate to this person compared to other people in your life. You grow warmer toward them and more forthcoming with your feelings.

Not really a connection, more like just getting acclimated from stranger to familiar, familiar to associate, associate to friendly. Confidant is its own thing.

How warm I am is a mix of random mood/sociability at that moment, some involuntary Fe both ways, and some deliberate (choosing me & what I want or choosing what the room/situation calls for).

How forthcoming I am would be based on whether we can communicate without misinterpreting or distorting what I say. It's not a personal connection. I don't need to know someone that well, we don't need to have similar experiences or culture, I just need to see whether we speak the same language and at what level.

tbh If they are confiding in me and I'm not seeing it or not interested and I have nothing for them, I might steer them to talk to someone else more their speed.

Do you think your greater ease of connection to a positive Fe-environment could be related to the emotion being tied into the situation/moment? e.g. the sentiment that ties you all together is decided or structured by the events taking place?

I'm not sure I follow the way this is worded. Fe-environment is more like infectious mood and hospitality than connection. Fe is kind of like a contact high. Too much Fe or the wrong kind of Fe, and I don't feel a sentiment towards the person. I just feel Fe high. And if they lack Fe, and I haven't been around Fe in a while, I just feel the lack of Fe, not a shared sentiment.

Connection or lack of connection with people is not naturally on my radar (its irritating to be reminded & judged for this), but there are some exceptions. I mainly think about this with dating or flirting, specific interesting people (usually Sx), and those depending on me (work or a hypothetical kid). I am fine with one person, and can lose interest in relationships, people, and society fairly easily when I am with someone who is not highly social.

Sx dynamic for me is real-time intensity seeking, exhibitionist, exposing, revealing, collaborating, merging, transforming each other. I don't necessarily have to relate to them, just good chemistry. If they're open and there are no negative social consequences for me, I'll mirror their openness. Especially if they are putting out the “good” kind of Fe/Ne/Se. (I'm Ti sub, I can't keep this up forever on my own) If its a good crowd and I am the most "Se" in the room then I'll push things, but I prefer to let somebody else do that and pair off with whoever catches my interest. Around inexpressive or judgy looking people, I tend to shut it down and observe. If they raise my curiosity I might poke and see if we are compatible.

But like I said above, my innermost guarded “stuff” is my Ni, not my sentiments. If I get a sense the other person is projecting their own thing or steering me way off, inserting motives that aren't how I work, then I'll just close off or detach and keep it superficial.

[thistle]

@inaLim I had a thought. Because we're exchanging written messages with socionics as an interest/foundation in common, there is less leeway for conflict of opinion and it's difficult to judge ITR from this. The way you become closer to somebody carefully and in stages is not much different to how I build familiarity with someone. It's true that I haven't analysed the stages to come up with a breakdown or descriptive words for them.

My approach will be different depending on the person I meet. The ideal situation, and how I envisage love, would be to allow imperfections to unfold themselves and find out then whether we can be with each other's idiosyncrasies past the initial click. Allowing circumstances outside of our control to test the strength of our bond.

Going back to your experience with ESI - you appreciate that a person with this type stresses the importance of (individuals), but this strength comes with its downsides of being demanding, invasive and paranoid.

That got me thinking about how I personally relate to Fi - it can build in me a devotion for someone who earns my trust. The person occupies a special place in my awareness(?), so that every time I discover something new about them, they become more brilliant, more vivid and more important to me. It's a pleasure for me to gather and piece together these truths of a person, so that there exists a detailed miniature version of them living inside me I want that sort of intimacy with someone, but it is not always possible. Now I am realising how my actions could be viewed as invasive or expecting access to too much.

Perhaps it follows that suspicion and demands come from a place of worry: is my (partner) downplaying my sentiments or indicating that the dynamic we have when together is not unique due to our own quirks and sum of our life experiences, combined? Are they not seeing my gestures of love in a positive light? How can they be truly happy with "us" if they conceal some of who they are and seem to enjoy my company without seeking to really know me?

I would probably be more drawn into their story and just experiencing that in real-time if they are charismatic or expressive. I might have a lightbulb go off that it resonated, but I would not be remembering how I felt about something in the past. I doubt I would be able to remember how I felt about something, I would probably make a best guess. I can tell you in the moment, but not the past. I would not remember what the person felt about something unless they were dramatic or hard-line and consistent about it.

Maybe if it were sentiments about actions and consequences, or stimulation and excitement. But that is more like advantage/disadvantage and satisfying desires than truly being invested in an opinion or attitude. That's a convoluted way of saying it all comes down to whether Se cares, (or can be made to see it as stimulating or meaningful).

I would have to literally go through the experience with them to feel a shared sentiment. And even when I have been in the same position with other people I don't usually consciously relate to them thorough their sentiments. If I do share sentiments its not that significant to me. I am not generally looking for their innermost thought/information (unless I find them interesting), so if they don't give cues I will either miss it, or catch it late.

I don't usually value sentiments as feelings separate from the experience itself. I don't have anything for or against exchanging sentiments, but just doing that would become one-sided and tedious for me if it is only for icebreaking. If you're a really vivid storyteller who can make it come alive again as an experience, that's different.

Sentiments are more like a reminder or suggestion to re-create, seek, or avoid certain experiences. Or a guide to understanding something happening in your life. So the person would have to present it to me in a very specific way (as a vivid story, mystery, pattern, or suggestion for future IRL experience) for me to be interested.

The only thing that keeps me from sharing sentiments is lack of chemistry and uncertainty whether sharing will bite me iin the future. Do I even want a relationship with this person or am I obligated (family, work, friend-of-a-friend)? Are they going expect more in the future? Are they going to talk about me behind my back? Start acting entitled? Become a nag? I have no problem saying anything anonymously online or to a stranger I'll never see again. My innermost “stuff” is Ni perception, not sentiments.

Your thoughts on shared sentiments made me recall a recent discussion I had with a friend. He told me that he values his flexibility in how he spends his time, and that getting too serious or heavy with a person can infringe on this freedom and preferred way of enjoying someone's company. He is very respectful and is willing to be confidant to his closest friends but recognises this comes with the risk of stepping on toes or inviting complications into his life.

At the time I wanted to question whether he has been upfront and truthful with me in the years we have known each other but I let it go. I interpret critique poorly and recognise that I also try hard to stay in someone's good regard, so it wouldn't be right for me to pick holes. It's strange...the more I unpack these thoughts about forming and preserving relations, the more universal they seem and not related to function placement.

It was interesting what you said about relating to someone's story - that when it is told well you may experience it with them in the moment. I wonder if it feels like your own intensity or strong expression has a belonging with theirs. When I watch movies and recognise archetypal characters I sympathise with their undoings and involuntarily hold my face in a similar expression to what I see on screen. As a side note, I wonder if in this medium (movies, or someone's vividly narrated story), the Ni core meaning is more apparent or useful as something you can take away and find relevance for in your own life - e.g. you realise that something you thought was coincidental may not be so.

I'm not sure I follow the way this is worded. Fe-environment is more like infectious mood and hospitality than connection. Fe is kind of like a contact high. Too much Fe or the wrong kind of Fe, and I don't feel a sentiment towards the person. I just feel Fe high. And if they lack Fe, and I haven't been around Fe in a while, I just feel the lack of Fe, not a shared sentiment.

Contact high is a neat way to describe Fe. When people around you are expressing infectious emotion does that feel reassuring because it communicates the personal qualities that are valued and appropriate - sort of like a guide that applies fairly but one that's either going to be agreeable (e.g. hospitable and welcoming to you), or not? When you say the "right" vs "wrong" Fe environments, I am curious about what makes them so but I understand that it's hard to put certain perceptions into words.

[CptLandhawk]

Fi creative here. In my experience Fi polar seems like it can't fathom that the interpersonal part of a relationship is cemented. Meaning what? To me its like they need constant reassurance of wether or not we're "good", and every time we part from a social situation the file "resets" and has to be filled with that info time and time again

I can literally not talk to someone for months and have no doubts. I can pick up right where we left off, because I measure the quality of a relationship in openess, shared experiences, and commonality in worldview, just to name only a few things.

On the bright side Fe third are some of the most fun loving and playful people, very seeking of a positive reaction from others. If they don't receive it right away it sort of eats at them, so I try to help em out there. Anyone relate to this?

[End]

I have an interesting encounter in regards to this. Granted it's because I am quite familiar with my but it kind of illustrated an interaction with someone who has next to no concept of how and why it's a thing and why people like me attach great importance to it.

Some of my coworkers were discussing credit scores. One of them said that they didn't want to know as the very act of asking that particular database negatively impacts it. The other said that it was but a minor ding (you lose a single point and it regenerates after 30 days she said) and that she was being irrational/illogical for having an issue with that. Of course I sided with the former stating that it was the basic principle of the whole exchange. It matters not how "minor" the impact is. If I am penalized in any way for mere curiosity on something both essential yet also harmless than that's categorically wrong. I doubt I'm alone in that sentiment even if I'm not talking among fellow Gammas.

If you were penalized for inquiring about your exact hydration level (hypothetically speaking) than you might feel a bit hesitant about reaching for that empty water bottle. If applying for a credit card caused a similar situation you may not even apply because it might fuck you over indirectly even if you stood to gain a great deal by acquiring one and using it properly.

That person gave me a very confused yet hostile look. Like they knew I was right but didn't want to admit it in public. I've yet to share a shift with them sense (i.e. encounter them). Either they found a way to avoid me in the scheduling algorithm or they specifically requested to not share hours with me and that got put through somehow without it negatively impacting me. That woman who heads HR is pretty old. Perhaps she slipped through the cracks and acted in a logical sense. Hard to find those types nowadays in most HR departments...

[Averroes]

They’re warm and generally funny/based but seem to have a blind spot when it comes to individual human dignity so a relatively unhealthy one might off handedly tell someone that they’re hopeless, say something mean about someone’s physical appearance, make an off color joke about someone who just died, etc.. Fe-polrs are cold but fundamentally nicer/more respectful ime

[End]

They’re warm and generally funny/based but seem to have a blind spot when it comes to individual human dignity so a relatively unhealthy one might off handedly tell someone that they’re hopeless, say something mean about someone’s physical appearance, make an off color joke about someone who just died, etc.. Fe-polrs are cold but fundamentally nicer/more respectful ime

As an polr myself I appreciate that sentiment though I am unsurprised you feel that way given how you're a fellow gamma. You get that while we may be "cold" on the outside that doesn't mean there isn't a plasma reactor of burning beneath.

Like in the example I gave above. I generally try to keep my mouth shut and head down at work but in that instance I simply had to lay it out in simple terms for that dumb bitch. Probably a bit of me displaying my lack of as I just spouted off with the full intention of also displaying I had 2+ standard deviations on her IQ wise. I wasn't very tactful and used an eloquent yet brute force metaphor but it somehow worked out in my favor. The others present (i.e. random types) gave what appeared to be their silent agreement.

That might have been why they gave me that confused yet hostile look. Imagine getting out 'd by an ILI somehow. That's gotta sting if you're a type that supposedly has as their strong suit .

Now that I think on this I'm remembering a conversation I had with an IEI in college (I think). She too labeled me as a cold and emotionless being. I responded by asking her if she'd trust my opinion over that of some random suitor. She told me, ironically for her, that she'd trust mine. I don't remember how I responded but I have a deep regret now upon recalling it. Perhaps I should have told her to trust/fall for me instead or something else along those lines. Maybe my attachment issues acted up and I told her what I thought she wanted to hear over what I would have told her if I thought she needed to face a cold yet harsh truth. So many variables, so many things to repent for...

[The Banana King]

Fi creative here. In my experience Fi polar seems like it can't fathom that the interpersonal part of a relationship is cemented. Meaning what? To me its like they need constant reassurance of wether or not we're "good", and every time we part from a social situation the file "resets" and has to be filled with that info time and time again

I can literally not talk to someone for months and have no doubts. I can pick up right where we left off, because I measure the quality of a relationship in openess, shared experiences, and commonality in worldview, just to name only a few things.

On the bright side Fe third are some of the most fun loving and playful people, very seeking of a positive reaction from others. If they don't receive it right away it sort of eats at them, so I try to help em out there. Anyone relate to this?

Right on the money

The nature of Fi-POLR really depends on whether its ILE or SLE IMO. Both have trouble measuring the emotional "distance" between themselves and others. SLE being negativist and Aggressor, tends to assume the worst until proven otherwise, or just Se their way through (perhaps giving the impression that they don't care about relationships, that they only want sex, etc.). ILE being positivist and Infantile, tends to assume the best until proven otherwise, and their Ne makes them more clingy and fickle in terms of relations. In fact, I think in Stratievskaya's ILE description it says that the only saving point of ILE's Fi-POLR is how fast they trust people and get into close relations.

In my case, I get into close relations very quickly with pretty much anyone that gives me a crumb of Fe If it's someone I'm interested romantically, usually within a week or two of meeting I attempt to "make it official". But the only type that doesn't find it exhausting or irritating (and actually reciprocates my feelings) is SEI.

As an example, there's this SEI-Fe girl I met exactly 7 days ago. Somehow we went out on 4 really long dates in such a short period of time. I asked her if it isn't annoying to see me so often. Apparently she enjoys it She keeps insisting we're just friends but I think we crossed the friendship line long ago already

[CptLandhawk]

Interesting

I'm on the slower side when it comes to forming romantic connection. Especially since It's my time we're talking about here. I'd hate to be tied up to someone pulling in a completely opposite direction to me regardless of the attention I get. If it's company I want I can go outside and literally talk to anyone, or find my friends.

Also, not to be negative, but make sure your time isn't being wasted on someone that really does think you're just friends and just stands to benefit from your attention.

[DEAD]

I'm shit at anything relational, I frequently break relations and I don't even understand why. I usually just say what's on my mind, and I don't care about being on people's good sides. I avoid intimacy like the plague and never talk about my feelings. I don't go by feelings, or have moralistic standards.

[PinKDiGiT18]

I'm shit at anything relational, I frequently break relations and I don't even understand why. I usually just say what's on my mind, and I don't care about being on people's good sides. I avoid intimacy like the plague and never talk about my feelings. I don't go by feelings, or have moralistic standards.

I still perceive you as an SEE. The thing about the PoLR is that you can’t really convey it at all, positively or negatively. You might think you are inept at relating to people, but the way you just described it seemed indicative of a certain understanding of its relevance and importance. SLEs and ILEs recognize their Fi weakness and while it may rain on their parade, they are for the most part okay with it and may even repress others’ Fi expressions. In a sense, you seem to value it.

[Metaphor]

I'm shit at anything relational, I frequently break relations and I don't even understand why. I usually just say what's on my mind, and I don't care about being on people's good sides. I avoid intimacy like the plague and never talk about my feelings. I don't go by feelings, or have moralistic standards.

This post dated like a milk unironically.

[End]

I'm shit at anything relational, I frequently break relations and I don't even understand why. I usually just say what's on my mind, and I don't care about being on people's good sides. I avoid intimacy like the plague and never talk about my feelings. I don't go by feelings, or have moralistic standards.

In other words, you've got major Attachment issues. Not surprising, like I've said often enough before the entire modern world is basically custom made to deliver us all unto the "tender" ministrations of that uniquely terrible sickness of the soul but holy fuck dude! Avoiding intimacy like the plague? I'm an ILI and even I at my emotional nadirs ever thought intimacy was a thing to be actively avoided to that extent!

I recommend the works of "Adam Lane Smith" and his "Slaying your Fear" as a great starting point. If you're a dude I'd recommend in parallel the works of Robert Glover and his work "No More Mr. Nice Guy". The latter inspired the former BTW. Fun fact.

[DEAD]

I still perceive you as an SEE. The thing about the PoLR is that you can’t really convey it at all, positively or negatively. You might think you are inept at relating to people, but the way you just described it seemed indicative of a certain understanding of its relevance and importance. SLEs and ILEs recognize their Fi weakness and while it may rain on their parade, they are for the most part okay with it and may even repress others’ Fi expressions. In a sense, you seem to value it.

I recognize that it's a weakness as well. I don't see how that is actually indicative of its relevance and importance, pointing out the fact that it's an actual weakness. Just because I described it in that way, does not make it a 3D Function. I'm pretty sure at this point that it's a 1D function, and if you disagree, I don't really care. If I valued Fi highly, I wouldn't be having the issues that I do with it. I would be adept in my functional usage, which I am not.

I recognize that I have real issues with Fi and that I will never actually be adept at it at all. I don't actually focus on these things in real life, and I don't care for them but I am simply pointing out the things within Fi that I am having issues with, and am showing how it is a weak point for me.

This post dated like a milk unironically.

Do you mean "spoiled milk"?

In other words, you've got major Attachment issues. Not surprising, like I've said often enough before the entire modern world is basically custom made to deliver us all unto the "tender" ministrations of that uniquely terrible sickness of the soul but holy fuck dude! Avoiding intimacy like the plague? I'm an ILI and even I at my emotional nadirs ever thought intimacy was a thing to be actively avoided to that extent!

I recommend the works of "Adam Lane Smith" and his "Slaying your Fear" as a great starting point. If you're a dude I'd recommend in parallel the works of Robert Glover and his work "No More Mr. Nice Guy". The latter inspired the former BTW. Fun fact.

I don't care for intimacy at all. I don't see the point in it, and I don't want it, or actively seek it out in that way. I see a lot of personal intimacy as a whole as a waste of time. It doesn't really work out, and I'd rather focus on my own research and work. I find it invasive as well. I mostly prefer my own company and yeah, maybe I should open up more, but I don't see the point in doing it when it's not something that I actively seek, or want to partake in.

I'm avoiding it because it's an inconvenience to me right now, and I'm terrible at intimacy and being intimate and close with people in general. Do I have trust issues? Maybe some. Do I avoid everyone intimately because I don't know who is actually close to me? I'd say so. Is it unhealthy? Probably.

I'm getting better at socialization, and I am getting better at reading people, but I'm still not good at getting close to them and having personal conversations at all. I'd rather just sit in silence at this point. Or do some other activity. It's a coping mechanism at this point, and I should probably get better at it. I'm in my mid 20s, so there's time to develop and grow, but it's just such a hurdle for me right now, I don't know where to start, tbh.

I might check those works out, if I can find them online at some point. Thanks for the recommendations.

[Metaphor]

Are those list of songs or maybe something else that I probably am not aware of?

[PinKDiGiT18]

I recognize that it's a weakness as well. I don't see how that is actually indicative of its relevance and importance, pointing out the fact that it's an actual weakness...I recognize that I have real issues with Fi and that I will never actually be adept at it at all.

Yes, I meant to say you *are* recognizing it is a weakness the same way Fi PoLR does, but it seems to be something that bothers you more than I've seen most xLEs express it bothers them. You are straightforward about it being a weakness, while I often see xLEs relate their Fi PoLR in a joking, tongue-in-cheek way because it's a sensitive subject. You seem very blunt and aware of not only that you have relational problems, but what aspects of relations you struggle with. In my conversations with xLEs, they cringe even at the mention of anything having to do with relations, let alone what specific things are problematic for them.

It may be that you are more open about it online than you would be in a face-to-face conversation about it, but it was just a thought regardless.

[DEAD]

Yes, I meant to say you *are* recognizing it is a weakness the same way Fi PoLR does, but it seems to be something that bothers you more than I've seen most xLEs express it bothers them. You are straightforward about it being a weakness, while I often see xLEs relate their Fi PoLR in a joking, tongue-in-cheek way because it's a sensitive subject. You seem very blunt and aware of not only that you have relational problems, but what aspects of relations you struggle with. In my conversations with xLEs, they cringe even at the mention of anything having to do with relations, let alone what specific things are problematic for them.

It may be that you are more open about it online than you would be in a face-to-face conversation about it, but it was just a thought regardless.

Oh. My. Gosh. I'm handling my weakness in a mature way. Who thought that would be so hard?

Who says I'm not cringing too? You don't know that. You can't see me.