I've got Dave Mathews as perhaps SLE - Ti subtype?
Thoughts?
I've got Dave Mathews as perhaps SLE - Ti subtype?
Thoughts?
Last edited by wacey; 05-02-2015 at 03:26 PM.
Aylen, Myst.... get the hint already. see the writing on the wall. socionics is bullshit.
Descriptions that you quoted can help but I do really go by the core definitions and principles in Model A. The concrete behavioural descriptions are somewhat correlated with that but not totally (because of no known direct causal connection and also other factors affecting things) and that gets confusing to some people, I guess you are able to handle itOriginally Posted by Aylen
Another comment, you are similarly balanced as me, yep be my dual
No idea, I don't VI much, let alone by video
Why you asking in this thread - want to make it the default go-to resource for the issue of SLE vs LSI lol? (I don't mind your post btw)
It's a model. Applying it where it doesn't apply is a bad bullshit idea indeed. Along with Gulenko's and Reinin's bullshitEtc
You challenged people to give come up with arguments that you are SLE -Ti. I didn't have a very good argument, and all I could think of was showing you what I think a SLE-Ti person looks like, acts like, ect instead of explaining. I don't know what sociotype you are for sure, LSI fits pretty much fine with me. Only you can be the final arbiter. Dave's video was just food for thought. o/ \o
No idea, I don't VI much, let alone by video
Why you asking in this thread - want to make it the default go-to resource for the issue of SLE vs LSI lol? (I don't mind your post btw)
OK, heh I see now, I didn't realize that from you simply asking "thoughts?" in a general way. Cool video & thanks but yeah not a very good argument lol.
What is "that". That I find conflictor isn't actually the type that causes the most conflict interacting with? That's actually what the theory predicts. If you meant something else, do let me know.That's because you're SLE and not LSI.Unhealthy EII-Ne's are the worst, I know a couple, we can talk/interact only for a while before a bad type of irritation comes up either from my side or from theirs. From Ne subtypes it's just too much randomness of the wrong kind via their strong Creative contact function also with weird attempts at logic, too much complaining and especially from the Fi subtypes, overly moralistic feelings. The healthy EII's (of either subtype) aren't too bad, their tolerance and attempts at being nice (if I'm liked by them) is cool. Just not going to ever get close for sure. The overly moralistic attitude sometimes displayed still confuses or annoys me even if coming from healthy EIIs. And often I try to encourage/push them with Se because they seem so low in Se but it never works but it doesn't cause a conflict, so just mentioning this on the side.
I listed IEE's as second worst only because they cause fewer crap overall. By default they either tend to be completely indifferent from a distance or they can try to be nice just fine. If in interaction with unhealthier ones, can get irritated by each other, me by too much randomness, by their bitching and they may start to criticize some bs about me that I don't even understand what their problem is about. If it's criticism over social norms, which I do get from IEEs more than EIIs, I sometimes try to pay attention to what they say about it but it's irritating and I fail eventually because it's just their subjective ideas on what's good. At other times I don't accept and criticize their moralistic idea in return. Also when their way of thinking in general gets exposed it often makes no sense and I really quickly tune out of it. I can't even be bothered to argue for long with IEE's which is funny because I'm otherwise very persistent in arguments, not an understatement there at all, heheh. @Reficulris, @mikemex, you both should be really happy I wasn't ever into arguing for long with you
As I said before, I do agree that we seem to be following in opposite directions. Precisely why I don't bother arguing for longAnd to respond you, the difference between Ne phobic and Ne annoyed is the strength of each function.
Think about the function structure:
Between super egos (Ne annoyed): Ne as 1st vs Ne as 3rd & Se as 1st vs Se as 3rd. (battle between equals).
Between conflictors (Ne phobic): Ne as 1st vs Ne as 4th & Ti as 1st vs Ti as 4th. (assymetrical battle)
Since opposites are Ne<->Se, Ni<->Si, Fi<->Ti, Fe<->Te, it should be clear that the LSI responds to IEE's 1st degree Ne (4D) with 2nd degree Se (3D) and is in an intrinsic disadvantage against it. Not so the SLE, which responds with 1st order Se (4D) to balance.
In plain English, an SLE understands Ne a little but misses by a long shot what the IEE truly means. Since he's confident in the area of perception, he has little trouble dismissing it off. An LSI is less confident than an IEE in the perception area, thus when an IEE expresses his own perception, it is always going to seem more complete than his own Se version.
The more apart are two functions, the better they complement each other. That's the reason why duals work well together. And for the same reason, conflictors understand each other much better than what theory predicts, it's just that, even if they follow the same paths, they do in the opposite directions and thus tire each other rather quickly.
And on re-reading this, it really makes sense that IEE is my conflictor. Your analysis is really pretty good. I wanted to emphasize this
Also, I did ask you about, where did you get the idea that I see your Ne as an SLE would. If you do have an answer you can put into words, I'd appreciate hearing from you.
@Myst
It's pretty clear you see LSI over SLE at this point. Maybe it would be cool to see a post explaining how the "SLE" traits you initially saw are actually "LSI" instead? How mirrors can be confused with each other (in your case specifically).
I promise if you keep searching for everything beautiful in this world, you will eventually become it.
That's a cool idea, I'll put my thoughts together on that later, btw what made you consider LSI for me?
I'm seeing the Ne PoLR through our correspondence more and more. I also see you adhering to "Fi norms" more than I initially thought, just like a proper Role function. Still not set either way. Beta ST for sure, but if you decide you're SLE tomorrow? I'd say okay and ask why. If you switch back to LSI the day after? I'd say okay and ask why again.
Neither type would surprise me.
I promise if you keep searching for everything beautiful in this world, you will eventually become it.
Ah, one example of what you saw as Ne PoLR? And lol
I've noticed in general you need literal, specific examples. We communicate really well in general, but there's something off...I feel like it's a battle of vague/metaphorical vs factual/specific.Ah, one example of what you saw as Ne PoLR? And lol
EIEs would be a little more concrete, because Rational + Je base (Te role). Whereas for me, Je takes a backseat, so I tend to describe things in impressionistic way instead.
Eventually I have to challenge myself to speak more carefully, concretely, which I think EIE is better at without trying.
This post is a great example in of itself. I'm not citing an specific incident that made me feel this way. Just my overall "feeling" which tends to not be useful to you.
I promise if you keep searching for everything beautiful in this world, you will eventually become it.
That you feel more at ease around IEEs than EIIs, it' not what theory predicts. If you measure interactions by how much you quarrel IRL and such, then yes, conflictors *usually* don't rub against each other much, but only because they have a tendency to avoid each other. However, when forced by circumstance to share a close psychological distance then it quickly becomes unbearable. This is because each function requires a certain level of "energy", the dominant and demonstrative being the most efficient and the PoLR and suggestive the least. And forcing you to use the least preferred functions quickly exhausts you. It's like trying to lift heavy objects with the muscles of your belly: it can be done, but it's not your preferred method by a large margin. And the kind of repulsion between conflictors is exactly that: a result of both being exhausted and just trying to run away from the situation. This is where patience is lost and trivial stuff escalates into conflict. Not to mention the feeling of being misunderstood and unappreciated.
Opposite directions in the same path. Basically, conflictors care about the same things but they have diametral opposite approach to them. For example, both IEE and LSI generally have social order interest that they share, but the IEE is generally concerned about liberty and LSI about order and regulation. Often IEEs don't understand that order and regulation constrict individual freedom but in exchange for many other benefits. And LSI often care so much about order and regulation that they forget the big picture and lose track of the benefit it's supposed to bring (it becomes an end and not a mean).As I said before, I do agree that we seem to be following in opposite directions. Precisely why I don't bother arguing for long
And on re-reading this, it really makes sense that IEE is my conflictor. Your analysis is really pretty good. I wanted to emphasize this
Also, I did ask you about, where did you get the idea that I see your Ne as an SLE would. If you do have an answer you can put into words, I'd appreciate hearing from you.
In general, think any two *healthy* conflictors would feel admiration for each other deep down, because both should be aware of their deficiencies and be amazed by someone who deals with them without effort. Only unhealthy individuals think their way is the only way and that adds up to the possibility to quarrel and such. But it's lack of maturity in general and not a type-related thing.
As for why I think you're SLE and not LSI, I'd say I don't know you well enough to have a final opinion about it. It's just an impression. Intuition doesn't really have intermediary steps you can explain.. but I can make an effort to analyze what supports that conclusion and tell you about it (which is what you're interested in the end, I suppose).
P. S. Thanks for the compliment BTW. I spend a considerable amount of time lurking in several forums and I always try to bring up useful content around here for others to benefit from.
[]
| NP | 3[6w5]8 so/sp | Type thread | My typing of forum members | Johari (Strengths) | Nohari (Weaknesses)
You know what? You're an individual, and that makes people nervous. And it's gonna keep making people nervous for the rest of your life. - Ole Golly from Harriet, the spy.
I don't think I said I feel more at ease around IEEs, just that I don't have that much conflict with them by default. True, it's probably due to the natural avoidance. I may have to update my post in that other thread about my intertype relations because I have recently run into an IEE that I'm kinda forced to interact with pretty reguarly. I hope that this won't last long because it's pretty fucking annoying yes. "Unbearable" isn't an understatement at all, lol. We quarrel a lot if but I'm really better off with avoiding her whenever I can - and of course the same is true for her - because none of these conflicts are constructive at all. She's also not very healthy so that just adds to it. We do very much misunderstand each other - mutually feeling misunderstood. And worse.
Oh yes she (this IEE mentioned above) does have interest in a kind of social order and I thought that was cool but we approach the topic very differently.Opposite directions in the same path. Basically, conflictors care about the same things but they have diametral opposite approach to them. For example, both IEE and LSI generally have social order interest that they share, but the IEE is generally concerned about liberty and LSI about order and regulation. Often IEEs don't understand that order and regulation constrict individual freedom but in exchange for many other benefits. And LSI often care so much about order and regulation that they forget the big picture and lose track of the benefit it's supposed to bring (it becomes an end and not a mean).
Haha guilty of that a bit.. about thinking my way is the only way. I was trying to deal with her in a constructive way first but I quickly got annoyed. Then bad stuff ensued. Same pattern still playing out unless I can avoid talking to her but that's not always an option.In general, think any two *healthy* conflictors would feel admiration for each other deep down, because both should be aware of their deficiencies and be amazed by someone who deals with them without effort. Only unhealthy individuals think their way is the only way and that adds up to the possibility to quarrel and such. But it's lack of maturity in general and not a type-related thing.
OK if you can get to that analysis I'd really appreciate it.As for why I think you're SLE and not LSI, I'd say I don't know you well enough to have a final opinion about it. It's just an impression. Intuition doesn't really have intermediary steps you can explain.. but I can make an effort to analyze what supports that conclusion and tell you about it (which is what you're interested in the end, I suppose).
Heh, guess we can be two healthy enough conflictorsP. S. Thanks for the compliment BTW. I spend a considerable amount of time lurking in several forums and I always try to bring up useful content around here for others to benefit from.
That's how people who are dead sure about being an SLE go towards an LSI.
How to collapse the whole system regarding ITR....
Yeah I am necrobumping, I hope it did not kill anyone.
Never saw the problem with necrobumping
Tbh, when SLE was my typing, I did always -at least vaguely- consider the LSI option in the background. Now with this typing, switching back to SLE typing would require quite some modification of the system first
Heh and ITR, I don't believe in the overly speculative and unprovable nuances in it. That part can't collapse because they never stood solidly
Fwiw, Myst VI's very much like a LSI imo.
I think you're both a/ very different people b/ LSIs.
I find that I nitpick about personal differences with my identicals far more than I do with anyone else.
Reason is a whore.
I don't care about her type all that much, simply don't have time for that (let alone investment, see my post on Socionics in the other thread), and also because I don't know her IRL. It's just the nature of the interactions with her that I saw that I analyzed closely.
Interesting about your last sentence, I don't really nitpick more about my Identicals than about anyone else once I see that they fit the definitions I use.
Last edited by Myst; 06-02-2017 at 03:37 PM.
This is your own little pov, and it's not reality. Just because your understanding differs from mine it doesn't mean I don't understand anything, lol. Unless someone asks me to, I won't waste my time on correcting all your distortions here one by one, but you are really bullshitting here. Congratulations for the heavy bias you are displaying here. I don't see how anyone can be this bad with it. Calm down and stop bullshitting.
PS: what SLIs tend to be bothered by about me is that I freely make definite assertions/judgments. Maybe that's your problem, too, perceiving that as too much pushiness and closing options (Ne) too fast for your liking.
I think it's pretty clear to anyone with functioning mental capacities that your ability to comprehend material presented to you is fairly low. That aside, how is it that you consider yourself an authority on what an LSI is when it appears that most people who have taken time to assess your type seem to come to the conclusion of SLE. I think you are more in denial than you give yourself credit for.
Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type
In your fantasies only. Or many people on this forum don't have "functioning mental capacities".
People are 50/50 on LSI/SLE for me - that is, some are for LSI, some are for SLE and it's about 50/50 at worst, definitely not "most people" claim SLE for me. Stop distorting the facts, thank-you.That aside, how is it that you consider yourself an authority on what an LSI is when it appears that most people who have taken time to assess your type seem to come to the conclusion of SLE. I think you are more in denial than you give yourself credit for.
Feel free to post in my type thread though about this if you want. This is off topic here.
The only people who think you are LSI are the people you made believe you were LSI for bullshit reasons, and many of those people go straight towards SLE after becoming familiar with your posts. It seems that anything you dislike is a distortion of facts. Unfortunately for you I dont play those games. There is 0 evidence of Ti in you, Ill go ahead bring it up in your type thread.You should also try and stay on topic and take your own advice
Last edited by Slade; 06-05-2017 at 03:19 AM.
Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type
Ne DS/Se devaluing:
"It is almost impossible to get an SLI to do something that is more complicated than what he is already doing. The same holds true on a mental level; SLIs admire people who are able to reduce phenomena to their essential characteristics, thus making it easier and easier to think about things.
SLIs easily lose their clarity of thought when people direct anger and negative emotions at them"
I also see this a lot in our arguments with you quitting it fast always and not just with me but with @niffer too for example: "Otherwise, SLIs can become uncommonly stubborn if people use too much emotion, abstract reasoning, haste, or pressure when dealing with them."
(Source: http://socionist.blogspot.hu/2008/06...scription.html)
Gee look at all the people typing @Myst as SLE. Is this what you call 50-50? Who is distorting facts?
This is a rough collection of my thoughts based off multiple threads I've seen her in: My best guess is LSE, in any case, I dont see a strong case for Ti in ego. She likes to use words like strawman, inconsistencies, and logic but when it comes down to it the actual content of her posts aren't structurally coherent. Her main way of arguing is using personal anecdotes, citing her own relationship to the information, relating via personal experience. Also, she likes to type using snippets of type descriptions, basically anything rather than actually engaging the theory directly. Extremely pushy, far more than Se creative. Extroverted tendencies, initiates contact with members, also has qualities that doesn't seem to relate to beta. Seems out of touch with aggressor/victim dynamics, seems out of touch with the teasing, verbal jousting interplay that goes on here. Out of place in Beta, basically. Uncomfortable with direct aggression, hides it under a veneer of pleasantness, typical of Ne-Si valuing types. Asks an almost compulsive amount of questions to form an understanding, atypical of LSI's who tend to connect the dots on their own. Asking in Reinin dichotomies at the very least. Temperment EJ, possibly EP, introvert is almost impossible to see.
Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type
I can make a poll on it if you want, I counted in all the posts and messages I've received over the years. Definitely not more people typing me SLE than LSI. Especially not people who have talked to me at length.
Not that I mind being typed SLE, it's just that I don't think it fits entirely, it's a little "off" compared to LSI.
I could understand the SLE or LSE ideas because of the DCNH D flavour that I have with strengthened Se-Te energy-wise so to speak. But the information processing is still Ti>Se Ego.This is a rough collection of my thoughts based off multiple threads I've seen her in: My best guess is LSE, in any case, I dont see a strong case for Ti in ego. She likes to use words like strawman, inconsistencies, and logic but when it comes down to it the actual content of her posts aren't structurally coherent. Her main way of arguing is using personal anecdotes, citing her own relationship to the information, relating via personal experience. Also, she likes to type using snippets of type descriptions, basically anything rather than actually engaging the theory directly. Extremely pushy, far more than Se creative. Extroverted tendencies, initiates contact with members, also has qualities that doesn't seem to relate to beta. Seems out of touch with aggressor/victim dynamics, seems out of touch with the teasing, verbal jousting interplay that goes on here. Out of place in Beta, basically. Uncomfortable with direct aggression, hides it under a veneer of pleasantness, typical of Ne-Si valuing types. Asks an almost compulsive amount of questions to form an understanding, atypical of LSI's who tend to connect the dots on their own. Asking in Reinin dichotomies at the very least. Temperment EJ, possibly EP, introvert is almost impossible to see.
I have no idea where you got the rest of your ideas but almost all of it is very off, lol.
First off, I don't really think others would agree on how I'm not "engaging the theory directly". I keep talking about the analyzing of it and pretty much everyone on here will attest to that. Unless you mean something like my Ne PoLR because yeah, I don't engage it like the Ne base people do it.
Then, like, did you see me in bed to be so sure about how I'm out of touch with aggressor/victim dynamics?
The only one thing I do agree with is that I'm not good with mixing fun with aggression when it comes to verbal jokes. A Beta NF has recently explained to me very well though how that balance of fun vs actual aggression works. I have not had much experience with fun socializing for a long time now (not since I buried myself in work and stuff like that after school a long time ago) so that's a nonsocionics factor there.
Something else. I don't know what is direct aggression to you if you also see me too high on Se pushiness.
I won't even comment on the silly but common mistake that you made that some people tend to make about the Asking/Declaring dichotomy (even if Reinin dichotomies were to be valid which they aren't).
Aaaaaaaaaaand finally......................... *DRUMROLL* Ti PoLR calling my structural logic incoherent after trying to get away here (link) with "reasoning" like properly refuting something simply means denying with a "no". Wow. Okay, thanks for making my day.
Last edited by Myst; 06-05-2017 at 06:30 AM.
Yeah, excuse me if I don't trust your personal anecdotes. SLE seems to be the consensus in this thread, and is many times over more sensible than LSI.
Personal anecdotes, personal relationship to the information, etc. The links you are focused on aren't objective links between information, not typically anyway.
Do you not know the difference between indirect and direct? Take away the smiley's and fake pleasantries from your posts and thats what you get.
Something else. I don't know what is direct aggression to you if you also see me too high on Se pushiness.
I never said anything about a 'proper refutation' I said I refuted what you said. Maybe you should learn what words mean before you look like more of an ass.
Aaaaaaaaaaand finally......................... *DRUMROLL* Ti PoLR calling my structural logic incoherent after trying to get away here (link) with "reasoning" like properly refuting something simply means denying with a "no". Wow. Okay, thanks for making my day.
Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type
Please open your two eyes more and look at the post dates. They are very old..... people did not know me well yet back then.
You are just too much of a noob on this forum, sorry.
So no, not bothering with a poll just for you. If you are obsessed enough about my type then I suggest you go and ask each member that posted here years ago before they knew me better, you will not get the SLE answer more often than LSI.
As for the rest of your post, I'm sorry, I simply don't respect your intelligence enough to bother with answering each ridiculous points of yours.
See you.
I think it's more accurate that you don't have an answer for me and want to cherry-pick examples of people who agree with you.
Hey, feel free to PM me with any opinions about my type
I started that other thread for a reason, please take all of this there. I'll cut my post from here in which I attacked her, and shuttle it over there as well.
My motives are simple, bring this out in the open instead of private messages going around.It seems you have mixed motives. Is the goal of this thread 1. To out Kill4Me and A. get him in trouble or B. get him to stop retyping you behind your back, or is the goal of this thread 2. as an honest type-me thread that you want feedback for your type?
For #1, have you spoken with moderators about your personal issues with this person before going after them publicly? For #2, I don't have much personal interaction with you yet or gotten a chance to really think of your type yet, but on the surface I see no conflicting evidence with the SLE self-typing.
He (or whoever else) can retype me as he wants to his heart's content but do it here. It's that simple really. I did tell him that I was going to make a thread on it if he continued ignoring me in private message.
I don't mind seeing opinions on my type, sure. Thanks for your input btw
PS: I don't see how this is to do with moderators because I don't think they moderate private messaging/private groups? Otoh, I did ask mu4 about the appropriate forum section for this.
Last edited by Myst; 04-07-2015 at 03:23 AM.
People can retype you wherever and whenever they wish.My motives are simple, bring this out in the open instead of private messages going around.
He (or whoever else) can retype me as he wants to his heart's content but do it here. It's that simple really. I did tell him that I was going to make a thread on it if he continued ignoring me in private message.
I don't mind feedback for my type, sure. Thanks for your feedback btw
PS: I don't see how this is to do with moderators because I don't think they moderate private messaging/private groups? Otoh, I did ask mu4 about the appropriate forum section for this.
It's fine as long as they are willing to talk to me and provide their reasoning if asked. Which is what I took an issue with.
I think she just wants me to respond to her. You know how e3s can get about their types. Here….check out these private messages she’s been sending me. the irony is it starts with her soliciting my opinion about her type. As you can see I never even clicked them let alone read them. heh. I even skipped over her posts in this thread. Too many Ne-manipulations for my taste and she’s got a big imagination to boot….never came across anybody this insecure over their official k4m branding. The main difference between her and Ineffable (ILE 7) is that Ineffable chased people around about their types whereas she chases people around about her type….a subtle 3 versus 7 distinction but the use of Ne to 'innovate' socionic concepts is identical. And from the PM title it appears she used the 'threat' of this thread to try and manipulate me into responding to her in private message…that’s extremely desperate behavior....not to mention a ban-worthy offense. I’m done reading this thread. Just ignore her/it.It seems you have mixed motives. Is the goal of this thread 1. To out Kill4Me and A. get him in trouble or B. get him to stop retyping you behind your back, or is the goal of this thread 2. as an honest type-me thread that you want feedback for your type?
For #1, have you spoken with moderators about your personal issues with this person before going after them publicly? For #2, I don't have much personal interaction with you yet or gotten a chance to really think of your type yet, but on the surface I see no conflicting evidence with the SLE self-typing.
Last edited by Kill4Me; 04-12-2015 at 02:04 AM.
@Kill4Me, I reported your post, as I find revealing stuff from PMs pretty low. (Not to be mistaken for siding with Myst on the type opinion, btw. It's a general thing)
As for your opinion, Myst could be ILE or LSI or delta ST even, but SLE isn't the worst typing. I suck at typing SLEs, so I might be wrong.
Do you want a serious type discussion, Myst? Then make a less aggressive/less opinionated post about it. That would probably be a good place to start (unless, of course, you want the drama).
Last edited by Ananke; 02-19-2015 at 07:21 AM.
Did you really see any Ne in me? Heh if you did, don't worry about posting about it, tell me
No I've got no problem with heated arguments as long as it stays logical.... can also be funny and whatnot, sure
I sent the first PM when I heard from someone that you sent a PM to them about my type, without any reason or anything. (Which then later happened again and again.)
Now why didn't you dare to read my PM's or my posts in this thread, I cannot imagine. "Ne-manipulations" sounds like bollocks to use as a reason.
No I didn't want you to reply in PM once I posted this thread. Has nothing to do with desperateness or being insecure over "official k4m branding", wtf is that even.
You are making way too many assumptions about my motivations and they are very off the mark, why don't you try to verify your assumptions first before taking them as reality?
Last edited by Myst; 02-19-2015 at 10:29 PM.
I just can't understand why you insist on people responding to you.
Have you never had this happen to you?
"This" = people running away, using ignore tactics, whatnot? Yes I've always had trouble understanding why some people can't pull themselves together and talk directly to me instead of other people if they have a problem. @Kill4Me clearly got some problem too
Last edited by Myst; 02-19-2015 at 10:47 PM.
Me too.
My point exactly.
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