Just wondered if anyone had read it. I have no opinion about whether or not it's accurate.
Just wondered if anyone had read it. I have no opinion about whether or not it's accurate.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Why? It's perfectly plausible.Originally Posted by niffweed17
I agree it's BS. There's no category for someone with low dopamine, norepinephrine, and seratonin. Lol.
That's because they don't exist. If you didn't have that, there's something wrong with you; i.e. you are inhuman.
Correlations between Enneagram and Socionics Types
Took a crack at enneagram correlations, although I think theres a few things that may need changing.
Enneagram Correlations
Alpha
ENTp-5w4, 4w5
INTj-5w4, 5w6 (rarer)
ESFj 1w2, 2w1
ISFp 2w1, 1w2
Beta
ESTp- 8w7,7w8
ISTj- 7w8, 8w7
ENFj- 4w3, 3w4, 4w5
INFp- 4w3, 3w4, 4w5
Gamma
ENTj-6w5, 5w6
INTp-5w6, 6w5
ESFp- 7w6, 6w7
ISFj- 6w7, 7w6
Delta
ESTj 8w9, 8w9
ISTp 9w8, 9w8
ENFp 9w1, 1w9
INFj 1w9, 9w1
I had to look a lot of the descriptions up, hope these are correct.
Model X Will Save Us!
*randomwarelinkremoved
How strong of a correlation do you think these are? For INFj, it sounds roughly about right. I think 2w1 sounded like it could fit as well. Are certain enneagram types impossible (or the height of unlikelihood) for a given socionic type? Not that I know much at all about this stuff.
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
ISFp Si-subtype can be 9w1
ISFp Fe-subtype can be 4w5
Some may disagree but I've experienced those correlations to be accurate.
IEI-Fe 4w3
Re: Well I took a crack at Enneagram Correlations
With the exception of 4w5 for ILE, 1w2 to SEI, LSI for 7w8, IEI for 3w4, ESI for 7w6 and IEE for 9w1 and 1w9, I'd say you haven't done too badly.
Quadrically, I think most:
Alphas will be 2s, 7s and 9s
Betas will be 3s, 4s and 8s
Gammas will be 1s, 5s and 6s
Deltas will be 1s, 3s and 9s
I can't see a healthy LIE as an 5w6 or 6w5. I mean, I'm sure it happens. I just can't imagine how.
Why not Joy? Where is the conflict?
EII
4w5, sp/sx
Not EJ.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Re: Well I took a crack at Enneagram Correlations
The ones in bold are impossible. They absolutely cannot be true. I think there are probably more impossible combinations in your list, but it's a start.
And people should learn once and for all that many ENTjs are 8s. That fact cannot be doubted.
Re: Well I took a crack at Enneagram Correlations
My most obvious disagreement has to do with 7 -- I think 7's best correlation is with the EP temperament, rather than with quadras or even particular functions.
Re: Well I took a crack at Enneagram Correlations
Definitely so. No IJ can be a 7.
Some qualms...
ENTps can be 8w7s. 4w5 doesn't make sense
ENFjs aren't 4w5s. Maybe one subtype is 9, not sure about the other.
ISTjs = 9w8 or 9w1 or 1w9... not completely sure but definitely NOT 8s or 7s
INTp-Ni subtypes tend to be 5w4
I don't think any INFps are 3w4s.
ISFp-Fe subtypes can be 4w3s I believe
INFj-Ne subtypes are 4w5
INFp-Ni
No ISTj can be a 9.
I totally agree with you.
Why can't it be doubted?And people should learn once and for all that many ENTjs are 8s. That fact cannot be doubted.
I think perhaps the ESE looks quite like a 7. Most would be 2w3s or 3w2s. But the best fit for an ILE is easily 7w6.
8s can easily be LSIs. Saddam Hussein is the best example. 8w7 LSI.
Believe what you will - there is no sensing 4. This is the same likelihood as an IJ 7.ISFp-Fe subtypes can be 4w3s I believe
Absolutely right. It is fucking ridiculous to assume that the 9 can ever be an LSI.
Is Saddam Hussein actually the best example of an 8w7 LSI? Why not SLE 8w7? 8w7 and 7w8 seem to utterly contradict introversion.
8s can easily be LSIs. Saddam Hussein is the best example. 8w7 LSI.
Believe what you will - there is no sensing 4. This is the same likelihood as an IJ 7.ISFp-Fe subtypes can be 4w3s I believe
Absolutely right. It is fucking ridiculous to assume that the 9 can ever be an LSI.
ISFp-Fes are often confused for INFp-Fes and vice-versa, certain ISFps seem to have an outwardly "artistic" image. This points to 4. I think you're placing too much value on the effect of sensory/intuition and enneagram type... I see the types as blending into one another based on temperament.... so i.e.
IPs~~~~~~~~~~
ISTp-Te: 6w5
ISTp-Si: 9w8
ISFp-Si: 9w1
ISFp-Fe: 4w3/3w4(maybe)
INFp-Fe: 4w3
INFp-Ni: 4w5
INTp-Ni:5w4
INTp-Te: 5w6
I'm not completely certain of all of these but see what I'm getting at?
I disagree, ISTjs-Ti can. Look at their description from meged and their romantic behavior.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Because it is an obvious truth. It is a simple matter of fact if you look at real life ENTjs.
It doesn't matter. Most 9s (if not all of them) are ethical types. If there are 9s that are not ethical types, they must have the IP temperament. Every ISTj contradicts that on both accounts.I disagree, ISTjs-Ti can. Look at their description from meged and their romantic behavior.
Re: Well I took a crack at Enneagram Correlations
I agree with Expat. 7s tend to be ENFp/ESFp (and possibly ENTp to a lesser extent).My most obvious disagreement has to do with 7 -- I think 7's best correlation is with the EP temperament, rather than with quadras or even particular functions.
socio: INFp - IEI
ennea: 4w5 sp/sx
**********
ok i can see where you're coming from. But what about ISTjs with 9 wings? i.e. 8w9 or 1w9? My father is an ISTj and I'm certain he has a nine wing. Furthermore I still don't see how an ISTj 8w7 or 7w8 makes any sense at all, quite frankly I think anyone who says they know an ISTj 8w7 or 7w8 is talking about an ESTp they've mistyped as ISTj or an ISTj that they've mistyped as 8/7It doesn't matter. Most 9s (if not all of them) are ethical types. If there are 9s that are not ethical types, they must have the IP temperament. Every ISTj contradicts that on both accounts.I disagree, ISTjs-Ti can. Look at their description from meged and their romantic behavior.
What are you talking about? Where does the description of 9 lead to being almost sure that they are ethical types? I think you should read more accurately and get more real-world experience (I KNOW an ISTJ 9w1).It doesn't matter. Most 9s (if not all of them) are ethical types. If there are 9s that are not ethical types, they must have the IP temperament. Every ISTj contradicts that on both accounts.I disagree, ISTjs-Ti can. Look at their description from meged and their romantic behavior.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Ethical types are more concerned with harmony among people. As the core trait of number 9 is peacekeeper, it's more obvious to be an ethical type (Fi).What are you talking about? Where does the description of 9 lead to being almost sure that they are ethical types? I think you should read more accurately and get more real-world experience (I KNOW an ISTJ 9w1).It doesn't matter. Most 9s (if not all of them) are ethical types. If there are 9s that are not ethical types, they must have the IP temperament. Every ISTj contradicts that on both accounts.I disagree, ISTjs-Ti can. Look at their description from meged and their romantic behavior.
But probably there are ISTJ out there who might fit the profile. It's just enneagram crap.
Agree with Expat, agree with Ezra (except about LIE 8's, as always), agree with Phaedrus, agree with aka-kitsune. Not sure about misutii. I'm thinking about some of the correlations, though I'm not disagreeing with them. As far as LSI 9's, I'm not disputing that they can look like them, from a distance (though I can't picture it), but I don't think an LSI could actually be a 9. ESE's can very much look like 7's, but from my experience and understanding of the theories they fit more closely with 1, 2, or 3.
9's seem not only somewhat IP and/or ethical, but also somewhat Si/Ne. To list my own correlations I'd have to look at the growth lines and all of that fun stuff, which I'm not prepared to do at present. There are a few things that mess up my understanding of the enneagram and my correlations. The placement of 1 and 9, for example. It's like... I have a hard time picturing most 9's with either a 1 or 8 wing, and I have a hard time picturing some potential 1's as having a 9 or 2 wing.
Here's a thought: SLI's are the perfect 9w8. They're the only IP temperament that I can see any 8 in, but it makes a bit of sense of an SLI (at least as a wing). I do think that true 8's need to value Se though, for the most part.
Have there been any correlations made between Socionics subtypes and instinctual stackings?
That is much, much easier to accept. As long as we don't mess around too much with the ground types, the wings are wide open for discussion.
ISTj 7w8s don't exist. A typical 8 is an extraverted logical type, so an ISTj wouldn't fit very well with 8, but what can we say for sure when we are dealing with an inferior system such as the Enneagram? We have to force the 16 types to fit into 9 rather illogical boxes, and some of those types will probably not feel too comfortable in the process.
Not SLE. I started a thread and said that, but everyone disagreed. LSI makes more sense come to think of it. Okay, maybe not 8w7. But 8w9s can easily be LSIs.
True.8w7 and 7w8 seem to utterly contradict introversion.
"An outwardly 'artistic' image" does not point to 4 - it points to someone with an outwardly artistic image. Any Enneagram type can be outwardly artistic. Some are simply more prominent than others. And regardless of whether or not SEIs are outwardly artistic, they do not correlate with 4.ISFp-Fes are often confused for INFp-Fes and vice-versa, certain ISFps seem to have an outwardly "artistic" image. This points to 4.
I agree with all of these except the SEI-Fe correlation. It is utter bullshit. 4w3 is an impossibility, let alone 3w4. (An IP 3?)I think you're placing too much value on the effect of sensory/intuition and enneagram type... I see the types as blending into one another based on temperament.... so i.e.
IPs~~~~~~~~~~
ISTp-Te: 6w5
ISTp-Si: 9w8
ISFp-Si: 9w1
ISFp-Fe: 4w3/3w4(maybe)
INFp-Fe: 4w3
INFp-Ni: 4w5
INTp-Ni:5w4
INTp-Te: 5w6
I'm not completely certain of all of these but see what I'm getting at?
Fabio, 9s cannot be LSIs. It's like having an LSE 7.
Stop being dogmatic and show me the facts. Currently, I have no reason to believe you. You've shown me no evidence to suggest that LIEs can be 8s.
Such as?It is a simple matter of fact if you look at real life ENTjs.
I think 7s are equally as likely to be ILEs as they are SEEs or IEEs.
Generally, I think if they're a 7w8, they're more likely to be either an SEE or SLE. If they're an 7w6, they're more likely to be an ILE or IEE. And I think ILE fits far more than IEE or SEE. The Alpha's motivation - to enjoy life - is perfectly in line with the 7's. However, I do have at least one guarenteed 7w6 IEE friend.
A 6w7 is apparently most correlated with the ESI, an IJ. This doesn't mean that the 7w6 could be an IJ. A wing is a wing, not a type unto itself.
I agree that 7w8 LSI is out of the question. But I still think 8w7 is a possibility. For example, in MBTT, the 8w7 is normally correlated with either ESTJ or ENTJ. Does this mean that in socionics, the 8w7 is best correlated with the LSE or LIE? Of course not. An 8w7 can't really be an LSE, because the LSE doesn't value Se, whereas the 8w7 does. They're far more likely to be someone who does. And who does? An SLE, for example. And why is it so implausible that their mirror, the LSI can also be an 8w7?Furthermore I still don't see how an ISTj 8w7 or 7w8 makes any sense at all, quite frankly I think anyone who says they know an ISTj 8w7 or 7w8 is talking about an ESTp they've mistyped as ISTj or an ISTj that they've mistyped as 8/7
You think you do. I've never heard of a 9 who was adept in Se. It simply makes no sense. They're always lacking in Se or Si/Ne valuing types. A lack of motivation characterises the 9, so an LSI 9 just wouldn't make sense. It's like suggesting an SEE 5w4. It doesn't make any sense.
Thank you.
Bullshit. I'm willing to bet £50 against that claim.But probably there are ISTJ out there who might fit the profile. It's just enneagram crap.
Indeed. But I just can't imagine an 8 with weak Se, even if they value it. Can you? If so, how? Please, enlighten me.
I think SLI 9w8 is not possible, but it is still highly unlikely. I'd say about 95% of 9s are ethical types.Here's a thought: SLI's are the perfect 9w8. They're the only IP temperament that I can see any 8 in, but it makes a bit of sense of an SLI (at least as a wing). I do think that true 8's need to value Se though, for the most part.
Try it; this would be very interesting.Have there been any correlations made between Socionics subtypes and instinctual stackings?
See, Phaedrus, it's this kind of stuff that suggests you value Ti > Te. You constantly refer to systems and how good or bad they are. You place emphasis on this kind of thing all the time.
This is to add to Ezra's "Blanket statements without any motivation or logic to back them up". Kid you should learn to argue better otherwise you'll be screwed later in life.
What the hell are you talking about? Again please go read some ISTj-Ti description in the subtypes thread and then come back here telling me "yes, you're right". Also idiotic when people think they know better the types of the friends of a person that is posting, in spite of the person having known them for years, and them having never seen them. You're ridiculous.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Is this your only argument at the moment? "Do n, or later in life, you will be fucked". If you want evidence, I will give it to you. Don't insult me. Ask me for the evidence. Anyway, I gave you a perfectly valid point which you have not refuted; rather you have just called me ridiculous and given no sound justification for it.This is to add to Ezra's "Blanket statements without any motivation or logic to back them up". Kid you should learn to argue better otherwise you'll be screwed later in life.
9s can't be LSIs because 9s lack an aptitude in Se, whereas LSIs are good with it.
Put up a real argument instead of churning out bullshit about how you know people. My brother did it all the time when he was a kid; it's immature and it's a sign of weak Te.
Well yes but if we're going to theorize we should do it properly. I have the wisdom of the enneagram book and just looked through it. ISTjs can't be 8w7s. Many people have been talking about temperament here and 8w7 contradicts IJ temperament.That is much, much easier to accept. As long as we don't mess around too much with the ground types, the wings are wide open for discussion.
ISTj 7w8s don't exist. A typical 8 is an extraverted logical type, so an ISTj wouldn't fit very well with 8, but what can we say for sure when we are dealing with an inferior system such as the Enneagram? We have to force the 16 types to fit into 9 rather illogical boxes, and some of those types will probably not feel too comfortable in the process.
8w9s and 9w8s (Joy I think you might on to something) share a common theme of suppressed anger that appears suddenly and then dissipates quickly as well. These are both more likely. 1w9 also seems like a possibility. ISTj's dual is the ENFj and semi-dual is ESFj - in other words ISTjs primarily need Fe. When others provide them with a positive emotional atmosphere they appear to become a different person, suddenly their hard, stern exterior gives way to a playful and caring side - I've witnessed this first-hand on many occassions, my father is ISTj, my mom is ESFj, my sisters are ESFj and INFp and I'm INFp - that's a lot of Fe lol!
ok I think I've understood your response and sympathize with much of it. Right now I'm leaning towards ISTjs being 8w9s and 1w9s. I can see how 8 and Se are related. What do you think about 1w9? I think that 1 might relate to Ti the way that 8 relates with Se.Not SLE. I started a thread and said that, but everyone disagreed. LSI makes more sense come to think of it. Okay, maybe not 8w7. But 8w9s can easily be LSIs.
"An outwardly 'artistic' image" does not point to 4 - it points to someone with an outwardly artistic image. Any Enneagram type can be outwardly artistic. Some are simply more prominent than others. And regardless of whether or not SEIs are outwardly artistic, they do not correlate with 4.ISFp-Fes are often confused for INFp-Fes and vice-versa, certain ISFps seem to have an outwardly "artistic" image. This points to 4.
I think SLI 9w8 is not possible, but it is still highly unlikely. I'd say about 95% of 9s are ethical types.
I'm interested as to why you can't see an ISFp-Fe as a 4w3? I remember your own enneagram/socionics correlation thread and agreed with the majority of your correlations so this one interests me (i.e in your last thread you attributed INFjs and INFps to 4 and I believe the same) I attribute 4 to introverted and ethical types. I didn't explain what I meant in the previous post by "artistic" image and can see how that didn't make any sense now. By that I meant that ISFp-Fes are prone to be moody (high ups and low downs), emotionally expressive, and prone to using art as an outlet for their repressed emotions... as well as being prone to excessive self-indulgence when unhealthy - and this all seems very 4ish. Admittedly I haven't typed enough ISFps in real life to be completely positive of this and so I'm open to new information!
Delta
ESTj 8w9
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
Re: Well I took a crack at Enneagram Correlations
It's really, really hard to imagine ENTps as such introverted individuals. Really, 4w5 and 5w4 are the epitome of social introversion, so to type ENTps as such seems a bit odd.
INTj seems about right, although I'm a 9(I have a very strong 5 component, though.)
ESFj I'm not so sure about...they seem like they could be about any type except 4 or 5(4 or 5 seem to be very exclusive types...)
I doubt ISFps would ever be 1s, and I think their incidence of 9ness far exceeds the times that you would find them as 2s(though 2 would undoubtedly be the second most common type.)
ESTp seems about right, although ESTp isn't really exclusive to those types.
You'll never find a 7w8 ISTj lol. In fact, I'd probably say 6w5, followed by 8w9 would be the ISTj's most common types.
ENFj seems mostly on point besides 4w5...though it's a possibility, I wouldn't say that their type is likely to be as such.
INFp seems right too, though some of them are undoubtedly 6s and 9s.
ENTj as 5w6 seems unlikely...6w5 seems entirely conceivable(Expat honestly reminds of a healthy 6w5.) But I would say 8 would be a more likely type for ENTjs.
INTp seems right, except I would add 5w4 as a very strong possibility.
ESFp is dead on, with 3 being the next most likely type.
ISFjs would never be 7s, and I think 6w5 or 1w9 is more likely to occur alongside ISFjness than 6w7, though 6w7 is a real possibility.
ESTj seems dead on, maybe also being 6w5s.
ISTps I would probably type as 8w9s more often than 9w8s...
ENFps are much more likely to be 7s than any other type, I think, followed by 9.
And INFj seems dead on, with 6w5 trailing both of those types in highest possibility.
I think it should be said, though, that these correlations are not definite and are merely probabilistic in nature. The Enneagram and Socionics do not have a 1:1 correlation with types.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
The first time I saw this thread, I read it as "Well I took crack."
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
I know at least two LIEs that are clearly 8s: a friend of mine IRL, and Expat.Stop being dogmatic and show me the facts. Currently, I have no reason to believe you. You've shown me no evidence to suggest that LIEs can be 8s.
That is irrelevant. The Enneagram types are not defined that way. The exact same reasons apply in both MBTT and in Socionics. The only way to determine whether a certain type can be a certain type in the Enneagram is to compare type descriptions. Keep in mind that the Enneagram is an incorrect model, even though it contains quite many true statements.
It is statements like the one you just made that proves beyond reasonable doubt that you have completely misunderstood whatSee, Phaedrus, it's this kind of stuff that suggests you value Ti > Te. You constantly refer to systems and how good or bad they are. You place emphasis on this kind of thing all the time.and
mmmhh... all what i know, it is that I'm 4-5 and i have a bit of 1 and 3. I don't know which exactly. Anyway, i would add:
-ISFp-Si be 4 too (sp/sx).
No. You don't seem to listen. No ISFp can ever be a 4. That is totally impossible. Every 4 is an intuitive type -- without exceptions.
you don't seem to listen. He said he's a 4w5 ISFp-Si. What basis do you have to doubt him besides that his information doesn't match your model? You say you're little theory then put your fingers in your ears and go "NA! NA! NA! NA!" so that you can't hear any of the conflicting data that comes at you. You just keep repeating the same things louder and louder to drown out the noise... How can you not see that you're doing this?No. You don't seem to listen. No ISFp can ever be a 4. That is totally impossible. Every 4 is an intuitive type -- without exceptions.
Self/Sexual
This subtype also cares very much about their surroundings and their possessions. They feel as if these things help to express who they are. There is more of a passionate sense about them as compared to the self/soc. They have more of a sensual relationship with their environment. These Fours are much more tortured by their difficulty with respect to maintaining close relationships. The self-preservational instinct tends to be in conflict with the sexual instinct, causing this subtype to habitually analyze their relationships to the point where they find it difficult to be present to them. When unhealthy, these Fours can become very disdainful of the social environment. They also start to envy the ease with which others seem to form relationships and maintain friendships. When Fours of this subtype are healthy, they find that they can form relationships without feeling as though they are sacrificing authenticity. They no longer feel that they have to automatically define themselves as "different from others," as outside the group. They are able to see the ways in which their emotionality might cloud their better judgment and to use that insight to establish equilibrium.
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