Brett Anderson from Suede - 4w5 SEI-Fe (so/sx?)
Karen McDougal - 4w5 so/sx (SEI-Fe?)
Brett Anderson from Suede - 4w5 SEI-Fe (so/sx?)
Karen McDougal - 4w5 so/sx (SEI-Fe?)
Last edited by silke; 10-22-2018 at 10:46 PM.
this is kind of interesting discussion on the differences between 9 and 4:
"One way to do this (4 vs 9), imo, is to crank up (in abstract space) some of the pure fixated qualities and their specific 'problems'.
E.g.: 4s can hate/despise better than any other type. 'Better', meaning in a focused/lasering articulated way. 9s who mistype as 4s will usually recoil, to some degree, at that idea -- the idea that 4s, as a type, are the masters of targeted personal hate aimed at specific individuals, although 4-hate can (and often does) include general hatred for humanity or other groups, etc.
In roughly the same zone as hate (the general topic of Anger), 9s, in interior space, are much more 'nonverbal' in their anger. Anger, when it (finally) arises in a significant way, is flush through the body and calls out for physical manifestation in a way that's fairly foreign to 4.
iow, 9 anger is 'dumb' and brutish in the sense that it (unconsciously) fantasizes some form of physical annhilation of the other, per the Gut Center. -- 4 anger/hate is generally 'smart' and has a higher vibration, higher center of gravity, up in head/heart space.
4s are 'granulating' their emotions, to some degree, meaning there's a Head/Heart ping pong that has a sharpening quality to it; it fine-tunes the wording/vocabulary of feelings, it 'anunciates' clearly, compared to the Gut grunts.
4 chooses specific poisons, particular venoms. And the 4 inner dynamic amplifies feelings, because negative discriminating thinking (the nextdoor magnetic neighbor 5) naturally stokes the flames of negative feeling.
And, per the above, 4s really have no (or minimal) superego messages dictating that hate is 'bad/wrong.' In fact, again, the tendency is to amplify hate (internally) in plenty of instances. This is a big difference -- 9s have much more superego messaging saying that certain feelings are bad/wrong and ought to not even be felt internally.
So, one thing that happens in enneagram forums is that people who are 9s who have mistyped as 4s will say this post (yes, this very post) is me saying 'bad things' about 4s. But now that I've mentioned that, they'll come up with some other workaround. Stubborn. If this (description of an aspect of type 4) sounds *too* negative, too morally/ethically bad and wrong, you may not be a 4.
4s generally see the hatred thing is just a plain simple fact of who they are, kind of nonchalant about it."
"It's amazing (and I've said this before) that when someone accurately describes the type 4 structure in terms of the self-created negativity, focus on frustration, and tendency to feel pointed hatred, that everyone flips out. 4's can be loving and compassionate people just like everyone else when they are healthy. But there is absolutely nothing in the type 4 structure that says "hatred is wrong, keep it positive." There is nothing about 4's that would make them strive for positivity or compassion. Can they be? Sure, just like anyone. But they TAKE NO MORAL ISSUE with expressing negativity or hatred, if anything they enjoy it. It's part of being a Reactive type to say "Hey everyone, there's shit you're all pretending you can't smell!" If you react so negatively to the idea of 4's being comfortable in the space of hatred, you may not be a core 4, and that's completely okay. Do you think Marilyn Manson goes home after his concerts and thinks, "Maybe I shouldn't have screamed about how god is dead and cut myself on stage...I'll be a little more compassionate next time." Reactive types want to hand you your bullshit on a plate, and the more reactive types you have in your tritype, the stronger this gets. It is a superego response to say "I'm a 4 but my negativity is bad." That goes against the 4 ego structure completely. And excuse me for getting too "real," signed this 478."
"Part of being a 4 is not noticing that your reactions have any particular negative effect. If you notice that they do, that might be fine with you since truth is being spoken. Other people can have their negative reactions to your negativity -- so what? 4s are comfortable situations charged with emotions and might not notice themselves being disruptive.
Same goes for seeing the hate aspect of 4 as a dark element -- to 4s, hate & overall negativity is a kind of neutral state: it just is what it is. The nature of fixation is that it repeats and repeats, it doesn't wake up to itself, even when we're deeply immersed in enneagram wisdom and have been working on or looking at this stuff for many years."
Last edited by silke; 10-22-2018 at 11:08 PM.
Point Four’s Relationship to Authority
Fours tend to ignore petty authority and to give “grand” authority an enormous amount of respect. Petty authorities—the police or the shopkeeper who makes you wait in line—are to be ignored and gotten around; but grand authority, such as kings and queens or critically acclaimed people, are to be viewed with respect. Fours tend to believe that ordinary rules and regulations do not apply to themselves. They are rebellious in the sense that they do not obey, but do so by disdainfully forgetting to take the rules and regulations seriously rather than out of a need to bring authority down. If the authority is punitive or restrictive, the Four will be likely to break all the rules of behavior and “get away with” as much as possible.
Grand authority, on the other hand, is greatly admired, particularly if the situation supports a Four’s image of specialness and elite presentation. A Four wants to be selected for having unique abilities and to be mentored and nourished by the best people around. They become patients of world-class analysts and confidants to eccentric geniuses. There is a need to be recognized by distinguished people and to be loved by those that a Four believes are in touch with authentic depth.
On the high side, Fours are able to sense genuine talents and qualities of feeling in others. They see through an imitative or derivative presentation. They understand the distinction between “the best,” and “the best known.” They will turn a tacky presentation into something beautiful and unique and can see extraordinary possibilities in a common business situation. They reach out to join forces with the very best people in the field.
On the low side, Fours compete with peers for the respect of grand authority. They become spiteful if not recognized and do not like to be in a servile position or to work in an ordinary setting unless this is in the service of “my real work as an artist” or “my true calling as a mystic.”Elite Nonconformity
I have a talent for escaping the ordinary. In a way I’ve made it my life task. I’ve never had a boring job in my whole life, mostly because I will embellish them to the point where they aren’t ordinary anymore. I would have a job selling books, for instance, and I would take as many as were appealing to me. Then I wasn’t a clerk anymore, I was a criminal, a much more interesting thing to be. They were always art books, useless in a way, but wonderful to take a risk for. I developed such a foolproof method that I was delighted to have a party given for me when I left, at which they presented me with a book which I had already taken home.
A kind of amorality can develop as a Four’s self-image shifts from being a rejected outsider to being someone who stands aloof and slightly above the ordinary crowd. There is an attraction to breaking the social rules, which, following a Four’s adherence to elite standards, can get played out as kid-glove criminality, like shoplifting only white angora sweaters.
Fours delight in “getting away with it.” They like the thrill of secret mischief and playing at the edge of scandal. There is an excitement in courting disaster, in being eccentric or difficult, and therefore getting special treatment. Being difficult also satisfies a kind of masochistic need to be revealed as that flawed and despicable child who is still unworthy of being loved. These feelings of unworthiness are coupled with an angry wish to even the score with people who appear to be getting more out of life. The coupling of masochism and anger could be encapsulated in the image of the society matron who serves a perfectly appointed dinner and lies in wait for the proper moment to announce that she is in support of a controversial cause that most of her guests despise.
This statement was given by a San Francisco socialite who stated that she became entirely absorbed with the task of getting the best people to attend her parties, only to feel instantly turned off when their RSVP was marked “accept.”
I cannot stand to be ignored. It brings up terrible feelings of being left out, which quickly move to hate. Being publicly humiliated makes you want to erase the shame by finding a way to get back. I either negate the importance of the people and leave, or I notice myself becoming sarcastic, and I find that underneath I’m terribly angry that attention has been taken away from me.
It’s equally dangerous for me if a situation gets too predictable or quiet. I want to break the mood by saying something shocking, which gets my message across that I think the conversation is a bore, and is also my kind of attempt to draw out some special stranger who would instinctively recognize that I was trying to upgrade the level of a poor conversation.
Their lifelong familiarity with suffering makes Romantics particularly suited to working with people going through crisis or grief. They have unusual stamina for helping others go through intense emotional episodes and are willing to stick with a friend through long periods of recovery. Fours often say that by focusing on someone else’s needs, they are able to shift attention from their own.
Mourning and abandonment are the keys in which my life is set, however, those are not depressing experiences to me. The dark moods are what interest me most and have given me a real talent for the shadows inside people’s minds. If something dramatic, or dangerous, or deeply disturbing happens, then I find myself immediately present.
My husband has had an assistant for several years, and I’ve been cordial to her, but have never been attracted to knowing her. Suddenly her marriage dissolved when she was five months pregnant, and with that news, she has become a central figure in my mind. I am much more likely to become disturbed when life gets too predictable than I am when a disturbing event occurs.
The search for depth of meaning often misleads a Four into the belief that lighthearted relationships are lightweight and therefore not worthy of consideration. There is a great attraction to people who are caught up in the most intense human experiences, such as birth, and death, and encounters with the dark unconscious. Fours feel far more real at those moments when life and death are close companions, because those events are so intensely demanding that their full attention is brought into the present moment. The following statement was given by an organizer for suicide hot lines.
Happiness is incidental. Is a moth made happy by the flame? I am a counselor myself and was in analysis for years. I faithfully tried to see myself that way, but I have developed a suspicion of my insights, and an impulse to resist what other people see in me. I feel that passion holds a greater possibility, that I truly exist only at the center of my deepest feelings.
As a counselor I’m attracted to crisis work: to battered women and people on the borders of sanity. I have started a hot line for our county and find an instant rapport on the phone with some stranger who’s out there on the edge with a revolver or a bottle of pills in his hand.
Fours often have two jobs: “my money job and my real job as an artist.” They are attracted to environments that require body discipline as a way of conforming to special standards. Dancer, chanteuse, magazine model. They are atelier owners, interior decorators, antique collectors, and owners of excellent secondhand stores.
They are metaphysicians and depth psychologists; they search for a connection to higher planes of mind. They are grief counselors, feminists, animal rights activists. They are attracted to religion, ritual, and art.
Unattractive environments include mundane jobs in ordinary settings. “I work in an office, but that’s not me.” Close work with people who earn more or have more. Service jobs, anonymity. A job where special talents are not seen.
On the neurotic side, Fours tend to exaggerate their emotional climates; however, the habit of focusing attention on a distant person and yearning for feelings of connection can also have some striking side effects. Fours say that they feel as close to someone at a distance as when that person is physically present in the room. They also believe that their own mood adjusts in order to resonate with what the absent person feels.
Fours say that they take on other people’s emotions, that their vast experience with shifting moods allows them to match the feeling tone of other people as a way of staying connected to them. There are many recollections of Fours who wanted to be with an absent parent and who came to believe that they could sense how the parent was feeling about them at a distance. Fearing abandonment and hating to be ignored, Four children learned to internalize a felt connection to loved ones who, it was feared, might go away.
It is as if a sensing mechanism developed within the growing child through which it was possible to match the moods of significant people as a way of staying connected and never being left behind. The intuitive task for Fours who believe that they can accurately register other people’s feelings would be to learn to tell the difference between a projection, based upon neurotic fears of abandonment, and the possibility of a genuine attunement.
Intuitively inclined Fours often feel burdened by the habit of taking on other people’s emotions. They say that they are vulnerable to picking up pain and depression without realizing it and can go through an entire day before they realize that the mood that they are carrying may not be their own. They report that once the feeling connection is made that they cannot tell whether the mood has its source within the other or within themselves.
On the high side of this way of paying attention, Fours can be unerringly sensitive to matching the feeling tone of clients, family members, and friends. This is far more than an idea or a hypothesis about what a friend might be feeling; it is an actual following of the fluctuations of another’s moods within one’s own body. Highly intuitive Fours can resonate with other people’s emotional state to the extent that they know when the other is available to being reasoned with or loved, or when it is safe to express negativity and to talk things out. The following statement was given by a Four who has been able to use his intuitive talent in the practice of psychiatry.
All during my life I felt drawn to the intensity in other people. It was like I felt my own emotions spark when somebody had been moved or struck deeply or become desperate in some way. I call it my leap of the heart, and have learned to welcome it, although it first came to me in what seemed like irrational ways. Like walking into a room feeling one mood and suddenly realizing that I was feelingly different when nothing came to mind about why that should be happening to me. I could also become gripped by what I supposed was my own emotionality, only to find that someone in the clinic or the family therapy session had just had (he identical shift.
I eventually found that my signals were sometimes projections and sometimes direct hits. I was often right on when the leap of the heart happened. At other times I was dead wrong, because I was merely confirming through my feelings what I intellectually assumed somebody was supposed to feel.
The Original Connection to Higher Mind
As with each of the types, the dominant neurotic preoccupation can be seen as indicating the search for a particular aspect of essence. From a purely psychological perspective, the concept of a depressed individual’s return to essence is something like the completion of grieving and a maturation into a happy life. From the point of view of a psychological/spiritual system like the Enneagram, a Four’s return to essence implies something quite different from emotional satisfaction.
A Four’s sense of childhood loss continues onward into adult life as a background awareness that some crucial factor for happiness is missing. The original milk was lost and has been replaced with a tacky substitute. The rewards that flow from the material life do not recreate that original connection for a Four. The Romantic can have it all and know that something is missing.
Because objective life does not produce satisfaction, there is often the sense of two realities: the objective world and the one behind the scenes. Objective reality does not hold the promise of fulfillment, yet there are indications to Fours that other realities of experience occasionally coexist with the objective world. There is the sense of a plane of existence that is beyond ordinary reality, that can be particularly sensed at the intense concordances of emotional life; at those junctures where tragedy forces an upwelling of unconscious feeling, or in affairs of the heart, where love is lost or gained. Fours report that at such moments a connection can be sensed to that which is missing; that they experience a felt connection to an eternal source of support.
On the neurotic side, Fours are fiercely determined to hold onto the dark side of feeling. They want to remain unique and resist being remade into an ordinary happy person. On the mature side, they are quite correct in sensing that their nature’s more than merely psychological; and by their tenacious resistance to becoming adjusted to ordinary life, they remind the rest of us about that felt connection to our own higher awareness.
A person who feels chronically deprived might first sense the connection to essence as a moment of complete belonging, moments that remind one of being held in the safety of a mother’s arms, or of the surrender of one’s being to the hope of an enduring love. This connection to what Fours would describe as “my real self” is often felt during nonverbal moments of artistic reverie, or meditation practice, or being in love, those very contacts to which Fours feel themselves habitually drawn.
Excerpts from: "THE ENNEAGRAM. Understanding Yourself and the Others in Your Life." by Helen PalmerThe Virtue of Equanimity (Balance)
Envy describes a compulsive attraction to the unavailable. Fours can exert a great deal of time and energy trying to obtain something appealing only to find fault when it comes within reach. For severely fixated Fours, the desire to possess and the need to reject can arise almost simultaneously. They report being attracted to unavailable people whom they know immediately will not be good for them or to people unwilling to commit themselves to a relationship. So the dance goes on. “You move backward, I move forward. If you move forward, I dance backward.”
Balance is the resolution of the suffering caused by being pulled to what you cannot have and repelled by what has come to hand. It is the recognition of having enough of what you really need. Like all of the higher impulses Balance is an embodiment, rather than a thought, or an idea about what it would be like to be fully satisfied. It depends upon being able to stabilize attention in the present and feeling the satisfaction of having enough.
Embodying the virtue of equanimity begins with strengthening the capacity for self-observation to the point where one is able to recognize when attention drifts off to the past, the future, the distant, or the hard to get. Fours will experience equanimity when they are able to gently return their awareness to the present and pay attention to the bodily satisfaction that is here.
“My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.” —C.G. Jung
The entire album is pretty 4-themed but this song embodies it best imo.
When Gregor Samsa woke up one morning from unsettling dreams, he found himself changed in his bed into a monstrous vermin.
The Metamorphosis, Kafka line 1.
[Today 07:57 AM] Raver: Life is a ride that lasts very long, but still a ride. It is a dream that we have yet to awaken from.
It's hard to find a love through every shade of grey.
Last edited by lynn; 09-21-2019 at 10:18 PM.
i have been thinking about what being a four is for me and about deprivation and how a lot of my issues revolve around it and it is caught up with being a four and always longing for things, pushing them away (depriving myself) then attaching to the emptiness and longing (deprivation). I am trying to work on not doing this and the more I try the more I see how effectively I do it. I came across this article, which rang true. of course the shame is related as the deprivation prbably started with my parents and the shame I felt from wanting love was their projection becasue they were not capable of being vulnerable, couldn't be bothered or as a means f control so then I attach to the shame, their shame. So to escape it I am trying to embrace my needs as valid.
Last edited by Guillaine; 08-22-2018 at 08:50 AM.
"I take back like half of the exclamation points.....they make me look....eager to please. Which I AM....but I don't want anyone to KNOW that"
- Carrie Fisher
I never cared for dogs, they smell bad no matter what you do to them... lol...
I mean seriously.. wet dog or generic poop smell or pee in the alleyway? wet dog is like 1.3x as bad
Last edited by khullencher; 10-21-2018 at 02:55 AM. Reason: bepis
>.< The low level pain is just a backdrop to life.
If you think about it, all of the enneagram types are picking up on something "real." So there's no real reason to not propel yourself through life noticing what's "missing." It's not good to overdo it, to treat yourself or others with contempt, to downgrades things that might be good. But some other types sort of gloss over the cracks, the suffering and the wrongdoings. Seeing the broken and finding redemptive beauty in it can be taken to an extreme, for sure (like amping up your emotions all the time when nothing that bad is happening...), but just as a thread you notice sometimes, when you are walking down the street or in your room, when you talk to someone or when you read the news...when you try to fix something and just can't, it's just a slight thread of pain that runs through everything. It is not the only aspect of living but it is always there. Feels like a sort of "openness" to me, sometimes. Maybe compassion. >.<
"The Death of Chatterton"
(Thomas Chatterton: IEI-Ni 4w3 sx/sp?)
Last edited by lynn; 09-21-2019 at 10:21 PM.
I am the rare and fabulous ILI-Te 4w3/5
God help you all.
But seriously, I hate being a 4 and its made typing myself a nightmare. I had a good expert friend of mine type me extensively and in detail. So I do not doubt I am a 4, and its complimented well with 8&5 in my tritype. The darkest triad, and the seeming walking contradiction. It makes 100% sense to me though.
I get a lot of shit for being a 4, but since I am self aware. That 4 behavior is tempered withing me and channeled into artistic pursuits and psychological analysis of others. So don't feel too bad. Any facet is useful, but you have to learn how.
Now THIS is 4 music:
If I had to think of a society whose values most matched with sx 4 it would probably be the Aztecs.
Death, blood, violence, etc. are common obsessions of sx 4s, so it would make the most sense that the society based around ritualized violence would be the most sx 4.
Pierre XO — Social 4w3 68
hes not a 4. 3w4 probably. he obviously thinks hes above everyone in how he comes across. hes so gross. not saying 3s are gross but he is. gives me a really weird vibe
he wants the shine of being different and unique, its not like he is ashamed of being flawed and weird like a 4 is. hes very normal actually lol
Cool hearin’ from you again tho, kiddo. (I know I’m younger than you, just roll with it )
And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night
Originally Posted by Starfall7w6 2w3 8w9 - The Free Spirit