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Thread: Oscar Ichazo's enneagram descriptions

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    Default Oscar Ichazo's enneagram descriptions

    Shared by Frederic Schmitt from an enneagram group:

    "As mentioned earlier, the theory of Protoanalysis is the primary source from which the contemporary Enneagram of Personality has been developed. In Ichazo’s theory, the differences that can be seen among people– their “personalities”– are the result of their becoming attached and imbalanced in certain Domains. Protoanalysis/Fixations is the study of how these attachements and imbalances develop.



    According to Ichazo, experiences in early childhood lead to the development of certain false Egos to which people become attached and which they identify as their true selves. Sketches of these 9 egos are listed below using the terminology of the Arica school and coupled with their corresponding Domains, Systems and Ways of personal development. Although Ichazo usually does not group these factors together in this way, it is being done here in order to better compare and contrast these “egos” with the more popular descriptions of the Enneagram “types” which are currently being circulated.

    BEING GROUP: 8,9,1.

    Point 8 is known as “Ego-vengeance”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Justicemaker”.

    This ego derives from the Historical Ego, which is a response to the Conservation Instinct. The psychic poison of the Conservation Instinct at the root of Ego-Vengeance is Avarice.

    Ego-vengeance experiences a sense of abuse in the childhood relationship with a Mother figure.

    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Vengeance. The Passion which feeds this ego is Lust (Excess). The primary defense mechanism is Rationalization. Worsening of this fixation can lead to the Passive-Aggresive Personality Disorder. A secondary defense mechanism is Resistance. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.

    Becoming fixated in the Domain of Laws and Morals, there is a swing to the dichotomies of that domain. This can manifest in a positive sense as a focus on Morality on one side, or Tolerance at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Puritanism at one extreme or Hedonism at the other extreme. These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Self-righteous character at one end, the Libertine at the other. A sense of Remorse invades the consciousness in this domain. The stress of being fixated and imbalanced in this domain can lead to Cruelty as a compensatory mechanism. The poison of this domain is Mythomania.

    The Trap which simultaneously restricts but potentially liberates this ego is its focus on Justice. The Way of self-realization of this ego is the Way of Redemption, which redeems the past.


    The Holy Idea which acts as a catalyzer for the transformation of this ego is Holy Truth, or Divine Truth. This can lead to the Virtue (energy) of Innocence.

    According to Ichazo, Divine Truth is “The awareness that the cosmos objectively exists now; that this existence is its own definition, and continues whether an individual understands it or not; and that the individual experiences the truth of Reality most completely when he views each moment fresh, without preconceptions about what should be happening.”

    *********

    Point 9 is known as “Ego-indolence”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Nonconformist”.

    This ego derives from the Historical Ego, which is a response to the Conservation Instinct. The psychic poison of the Conservation Instinct at the root of Ego-Indolence is Greed.

    Ego-indolence experiences a sense of abandonment in the childhood relationship with a Mother figure.

    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Disillusionment. The Passion which feeds this ego is Laziness (Sloth). The primary defense mechanism is Compensation. Worsening of this fixation can lead to the Avoidant/Dependent Personality Disorders. A secondary defense mechanism is Symbolization. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.

    Becoming fixated in the Spiritual Domain, there is a swing to the dichotomies of that domain. This can manifest in a positive sense as a focus on Spirituality on one side, or Realism at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Fanaticism at one extreme or Skepticism at the other extreme. These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Believer at one end, the Doubter at the other. Prejudices invade the consciousness in this domain. The stress of being fixated and imbalanced in this domain can lead to Sensuality as a compensatory mechanism. The poisons of this domain are Ignorance, Arrogance and Stupidity.

    The Trap which simultaneously restricts but potentially liberates this ego is its focus on Seeking. The Way of self-realization of this ego is the Way of Self-Awareness, which is “immensely mystical” and which entails becoming aware of one’s “internal inner clarity”.

    The Holy Idea which acts as a catalyzer for the transformation of this ego is Holy Love/ Divine Love. This can lead to the Virtue (energy) of Action.

    According to Ichazo, Divine Love is “The awareness that though the laws which govern reality are objective, they are not cold, because these cosmic laws inevitably lead to the creation of organic life, and Life itself, like all natural phenomena, fulfills a cosmic purpose. As soon as the mind’s word mechanism is destroyed, love, the natural condition of the mind, appears. Love begins the moment man contemplates the Creation and says, ‘Thank you, God.’ All men feel this somewhat, no animal can feel this at all. Man alone can know that all comes from God.”

    *********

    Point 1 is known as “Ego-resentment”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Perfectionist”.

    This ego derives from the Historical Ego, which is a response to the Conservation Instinct. The psychic poison of the Conservation Instinct at the root of Ego-Resentment is Possessiveness.

    Ego-resentment experiences a sense of being unloved in the childhood relationship with a Mother figure.

    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Resentment. The Passion which feeds this ego is Anger. The primary defense mechanism is Isolation. Worsening of this fixation can lead to the Obsessive-Compulsive Personality Disorder. A secondary defense mechanism is Undoing. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.

    Becoming fixated in the Domain of Sentiments, there is a swing to the dichotomies of that domain. This can manifest in a positive sense as a focus on Self-Control on one side, or Sensitivity at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Callousness at one extreme or Touchiness at the other extreme. These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Heartless character at one end, the Gushy character at the other. Jealousies invade the consciousness in this domain. The stress of being fixated and imbalanced in this domain can lead to Toximania as a compensatory mechanism. The poison of this domain is Anger.

    The Trap which simultaneously restricts but potentially liberates this ego is its focus on Perfection. The Way of self-realization of this ego is the Way of Attention, which works by recalling oneself in self-observation permanently.

    The Holy Idea which acts as a catalyzer for the transformation of this ego is Holy Perfection, or Divine Perfection. This can lead to the Virtue (energy) of Serenity.

    According to Ichazo, Divine Perfection is “The awareness that Reality is a process, moving with direction and purpose. Within this movement each moment is connected by the process with the one goal, and thus is perfect.”


    LIVING GROUP: 2,3,4.

    Point 2 is known as “Ego-flattery”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Independent”.

    This ego is derives from the Image Ego, which is a response to the Relation Instinct. The psychic poison of the Relation Instinct at the root of Ego-Flattery is Envy.

    Ego-Flattery experiences a sense of being controlled in the childhood relationship with a Father figure.

    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Vanity. The Passion which feeds this ego is Pride. The primary defense mechanism is Denial. Worsening of this fixation can lead to the Narcissistic Personality Disorder. A secondary defense mechanism is Repression. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.

    Becoming fixated in the Domain of Health and Security, there is a swing to the dichotomies of that domain. This can manifest in a positive sense as a focus on Routine on one side, or Flexibility at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Meticulousness at one extreme or Negligence at the other extreme. These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Fussy character at one end, the Messy person at the other. Fears invade the consciousness in this domain. The stress of being fixated and imbalanced in this domain can lead to Psychosomatic Illness as a compensatory mechanism. The poison of this domain is Lechery.

    The Trap which simultaneously restricts but potentially liberates this ego is its focus on Freedom. The Way of self-realization of this ego is the Way of Liberty, also known as the Way of Security, which deals with the construction of our lives.

    The Holy Idea which acts as a catalyzer for the transformation of this ego is Holy Will, or Divine Will. This can lead to the Virtue (energy) of Humility.
    According to Ichazo, Divine Will is “The awareness that Reality, moving with direction and according to fixed natural laws, flows with a certain force. The easiest way to deal with this force is to move with it. This is true freedom.”


    *********

    Point 3 is known as “Ego-Go”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Efficient”.

    This ego derives from the Image Ego, which is a response to the Relation instinct. The psychic poison of the Relation Instinct at the root of Ego-Go is Hate.

    Ego-Go experiences a sense of being ignored in the childhood relationship with a Father figure.

    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Hyperactivity. The Passion which feeds this ego is Deceit. The primary defense mechanism is Identification. Worsening of this fixation can lead to the Histrionic Personality Disorder. A secondary defense mechanism is Compulsion. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.

    Becoming fixated in the Domain of Creativity, there is a swing to the dichotomies of that domain. This can manifest in a positive sense as a focus on Know-how on one side, or Fantasy at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Cunning at one extreme or Daydreaming at the other extreme. These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Schemer character at one end, the Bullsh*tter at the other. Lies invade the consciousness in this domain. The stress of being fixated and imbalanced in this domain can lead to Over-exertion as a compensatory mechanism. The poison of this domain is Avarice.

    The Trap which simultaneously restricts but potentially liberates this ego is its focus on Efficiency. The Way of self-realization of this ego is the Way of Creativity, which goes with art.

    The Holy Idea which acts as a catalyzer for the transformation of this ego is Holy Harmony, or Divine Harmony. This can lead to the Virtue (energy) of Truthfulness.

    According to Ichazo, Divine Harmony is “The awareness that there are no exceptions to the natural laws which govern the Cosmos, and that these laws are completely objective, operating as an interconnected unity. The highest law is the totality of Reality itself. Certitude in the objectivity and the total applicability of those laws is true hope.”
    **********

    Point 4 is known as “Ego-Melancholy”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Reasoner”.


    This ego derives from the Image Ego, which is a response to the Relation Instinct. The psychic poison of the Relation Instinct at the root of Ego-Melancholy is Jealousy.

    Ego-Melancholy experiences a sense of being criticized in the childhood relationship with a Father figure.

    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Melancholia. The Passion which feeds this ego is Envy. The primary defense mechanism is Sublimation. Worsening of this fixation can lead to the Borderline Personality Disorder. A secondary defense mechanism is Reaction-formation. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.

    Becoming fixated in the Intellectual Domain, there is a swing to the dichotomies of that domain. This can manifest in a positive sense as a focus on Reason on one side, or having an Overview at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Sophistry at one extreme or Superficiality at the other extreme. These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Argumentative character at one end, the Shallow character at the other. Envies invade the consciousness in this domain. The stress of being fixated and imbalanced in this domain can lead to Crime as a compensatory mechanism. The poison of this domain is Deception.

    The Trap which simultaneously restricts but potentially liberates this ego is its focus on Analysis. The Way of self-realization of this ego is the Way of Clarity, or the way of pure clear analysis.

    The Holy Idea which acts as a catalyzer for the transformation of this ego is Holy Origin, or Divine Origin. This can lead to the Virtue (energy) of Equanimity.

    According to Ichazo, Divine Origin is “The awareness that all individuals are born as the result of natural, objective laws; that these laws continue to operate within them throughout their lives. Because all the laws are interconnected, each individual always has an intimate physical connection with the Totality of Reality – the Cosmos. From this springs true originality.”

    DOING GROUP: 5,6,7.

    Point 5 is known as “Ego-Stinginess”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Observer”.

    This ego derives from the Practical Ego, which is a response to the Adaptation Instinct. The psychic poison of the Adaptation Instinct at the root of Ego-Stinge is Confusion.


    Ego-stinginess experiences a sense of Alienation in the childhood relationship with siblings and/or peers.

    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Withdrawal. The Passion which feeds this ego is Avarice. The primary defense mechanism is Introjection. Worsening of this fixation can lead to either the Schizoid or Anti-Social Personality Disorder. A secondary defense mechanism is Regression. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.

    Becoming fixated in the Domain of Social Interaction, there is a swing to the dichotomies of that domain. This can manifest in a positive sense as Sociability on one side, or Privacy at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Meddling at one extreme or Alienation at the other extreme. These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Busybody at one end, the Loner at the other. A sense of Hatred invades the consciousness in this domain. The stress of being fixated and imbalanced in this domain can lead to Phobias as a compensatory mechanism. The poison of this domain is Envy.

    The Trap which simultaneously restricts but potentially liberates this ego is its focus on Observation. The Way of self-realization of this ego is the Way of Enchantment, which is how we relate magically with the world.

    The Holy Idea which acts as a catalyzer for the transformation of this ego is Holy Omniscience, or Divine Omniscience. This can lead to the Virtue (energy) of Detachment (Non-Attachment).

    According to Ichazo, Divine Omniscience is “The awareness that because every individual is intimately connected with the entire cosmos by the operation of objective laws within their own bodies, there is no separateness or alienation except as a mental hallucination. Because the cosmic laws govern every aspect of ourselves, there is no possibility of hiding from the Cosmos, or avoiding the results of natural processes. When we understand this, we are completely at peace with our past.”
    *********

    Point 6 is known as “Ego-Cowardice”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Adventurer”.

    This ego derives from the Practical Ego, which is a response to the Adaptation Instinct. The psychic poison of the Adaptation Instinct at the root of Ego-Cowardice is Deceit.


    Ego-Cowardice experiences a sense of being Useless in the childhood relationship with siblings and/or peers.

    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Insecurity. The Passion which feeds this ego is Fear. The primary defense mechanism is Projection. Worsening of this fixation can lead to Paranoid Personality Disorder. A secondary defense mechanism is Conversion. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.

    Becoming fixated in the Domain of Work and Activities, there is a swing to the dichotomies of that domain. This can manifest in a positive sense as Labor on one side, or Amusement at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Overwork at one extreme or Loafing at the other extreme. These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Workhorse at one end, the Idler at the other. Worries invade the consciousness in this domain. The stress of being fixated and imbalanced in this domain can lead to Panic as a compensatory mechanism. The poison of this domain is Jealousy.

    The Trap which simultaneously restricts but potentially liberates this ego is its focus on Prudence. The Way of self-realization of this ego is the Way of Action, which is to realize that our actions must be internalized if they are to be real actions.

    The Holy Idea which acts as a catalyzer for the transformation of this ego is Holy Strength, or Divine Strength. This can lead to the Virtue (energy) of Courage.

    According to Ichazo, Divine Strength is “The awareness that the Cosmos is a self-regulating mechanism, existing in a state of balance, and as long as the objective laws which govern this balance are respected, an individual can exist in a state of harmony with Reality, moving toward his own personal fulfillment. Faith is a Holy Idea, not a belief. It is the certitude that each of us has an Essence and that this Essence coming from God, belongs to God.”

    *********

    Point 7 is known as “Ego-Planning”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Idealist”.

    This ego derives from the Practical Ego, which is a response to the Adaptation Instinct. The psychic

    poison of the Adaptation Instinct at the root of Ego-Planning is Mythomania.

    Ego-Planning experiences a sense of being Inferiorized in the childhood relationship with siblings and/or peers.

    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Dreaming. The Passion which feeds this ego is Gluttony. The primary defense mechanism is Displacement. Worsening of this fixation can lead to Schizotypal Personality Disorder. A secondary defense mechanism is Disassociation. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.

    Becoming fixated in the Domain of Position and Authority, there is a swing to the dichotomies of that domain. This can manifest in a positive sense as Self-Respect on one side, or Modesty at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Superiority at one extreme or Inferiority at the other extreme. These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Pretentious character at one end, the Loser at the other. Rivalries invade the consciousness in this domain. The stress of being fixated and imbalanced in this domain can lead to Gluttony as a compensatory mechanism. The poison of this domain is Confusion of thought.

    The Trap which simultaneously restricts but potentially liberates this ego is its focus on Idealism. The Way of self-realization of this ego is the Way of Presence, continuously being aware of the Presence of the Eternal.

    The Holy Idea which acts as a catalyzer for the transformation of this ego is Holy Wisdom or Divine Wisdom (sometimes described as Holy Work). This can lead to the Virtue (energy) of Sobriety.

    According to Ichazo, Divine Wisdom (or Work) is “The awareness that Reality exists as a succession of moments, each experienced as ‘the present,’ and that it is only by existing in the present that the constant unfolding of the Cosmos [can] be experienced. Only by working in the present can real work be done and real results achieved.”

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    Great post. I'm going to use this to argue to all fellow E5s that Whitehead, Code, and Laozi are the biggest philosophical favours they can do for themselves.

    scribbles in the dark

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olly From Wally World View Post
    Point 9 is known as “Ego-indolence”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Nonconformist”.
    that makes it difficult for 9s to mistake themselves for 4s, doesn't it
    yet what I have see from several enneagram discussions is that it is easy for the 9 to confuse themselves for a 4 or a 5

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    Quote Originally Posted by Olly From Wally World View Post

    Ego-Melancholy experiences a sense of being criticized in the childhood relationship with a Father figure.

    This caught my attention because a few years ago I had a psychic reading (don't laugh) and the guy told me all my issues revolved around my father leaving. He gave me in depth insight and advice on the situation with my bio-dad. The strange thing is I never told this guy anything about myself before the reading. My ILI step-dad was very critical but now I appreciate that he was.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Ichazo is considered by many to be the father of the Enneagram of Personality (usually just called the Enneagram) movement which uses an enneagram figure. The United States Court of Appeals[12] ruled that Ichazo is the original author of the application of the enneagram figure to a theory of ego fixations (which are the precursor to personality disorders). However, this ruling denied copyright injunction under the "fair use" doctrine of copyright law. Because the enneagram symbol is a discovery (not an invention), the legal issue was not use of the symbol but rather the copyrightability of specific "enneagrams", meaning symbol plus descriptive words (or other information) associated with each point. Ichazo had earlier described the enneagrams as a set of immutable laws[13] but he had also said that he "developed" the enneagrams.[14]

    Ichazo has applied the enneagram figure in connection with his theory of mechanical ego mechanisms which grow out of psychological traumas suffered at an early age in specific aspects of the human psyche.[15] In his basic theory, these aspects of the human psyche include the sense of well-being (conservation instinct); the sense of relations with others (relation instinct); and the sense of adapting to our environment (adaptation instinct). Ichazo's goal with regard to the study of the enneagram is to facilitate the recognition of repetitive, mechanistic thinking and behavior in a person's psychological process and to eliminate the suffering rooted in the attachment to, and identification with, these mechanisms (which, Ichazo teaches, attempt to protect us from suffering but actually tend to perpetuate it).[16]

    The popular use of the Enneagram of Personality (as contrasted with the use of enneagrams within the Arica School) began principally with Claudio Naranjo who had studied with Ichazo in Chile.[citation needed] Ichazo considers Naranjo's understanding of the Enneagram to be limited and incomplete.[17] Naranjo's major contribution to the Enneagram of Personality was his addition of defense mechanisms to the model developed by Ichazo: "His contribution to the Enneagram successfully joined the insight and methods of a mystical path of transformation with the intellectual power of a Western psychological model."[18]

    Influences
    It has been suggested that Ichazo "either came under the influence of the school that taught G.I. Gurdjieff or, at least, studied under students of Gurdjieff."[19] Ichazo, however, has denied any connection between his and Gurdjieff's teachings.[20] Some writers in the Enneagram of Personality field have claimed that the enneagram figure is a Sufi symbol.[citation needed] Although the symbolism of the number 9 is ancient,[21] there does not appear to be any evidence for the enneagram figure before Gurdjieff[22] in Sufism or elsewhere.[23]

    As presented in later years (post-2000), a large part of Arica is the study of classical philosophy as compared to "modern" philosophy. This is a departure from the early 1990s when Ichazo was intent on correlating Arica with Tantric Buddhism.[24] In recent years, Ichazo has pointedly asserted that his understanding of the Enneagram originated with reading classical philosophy and Plotinus' Enneads and not as any consequence of any writing or work of Gurdjieff.[citation needed] In Interviews With Oscar Ichazo he states that he encountered the enneagram figure before he encountered the works of Gurdjieff, implying that it was before he joined (circa 1950) a group of mystics in Buenos Aires that included some people who had participated in the Fourth Way work presented by Gurdjieff.


    Protoanalysis

    The tools that the Arica School teaches are called the “Protoanalytical Theory, System and Method” or "Protoanalysis". Before 1980, the term "protoanalysis" was misunderstood to be narrower in scope, used specifically as the name for Ichazo's theory of types, from which the Enneagram of Personality was derived.

    Protoanalysis is proposed by Ichazo to be a comprehensive analysis of the complete human being, from the grossest aspects of the human process (e.g., enneagramatic and mentational analyses of human anatomy and physiology), progressing systematically to the higher states of consciousness where enlightenment can be attained (e.g., the direct and ceaseless experience of non-dual union with the Divine).[citation needed]

    The Arica School presents a detailed map of the human psyche that aims to serve as a guide for discovering the basis of one's ego process, enabling individuals to transcend that process into a higher state of consciousness that is found in and available to every person.[citation needed] This state of being is seen as the recognition of one's true essential self, experienced as an internal state of great happiness, light, and liberation.[citation needed]
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arica_School

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Later typists excising most of the New Age stuff was really for the better. Gurdjieff was a bunch of bullshit.

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    So gut triads have mommy issues, heart triads have daddy issues, and head triads have peer issues.

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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    So gut triads have mommy issues, heart triads have daddy issues, and head triads have peer issues.
    Never seen much point in peers. Seems kind of useless. They do not help you in search for understanding of things – quite the opposite as they take time away from it. Mommy and daddy were much more necessary compared to them.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carolus View Post
    Later typists excising most of the New Age stuff was really for the better. Gurdjieff was a bunch of bullshit.
    Later typists stripped it to make it more appealing to the masses. Nothing wrong with that but it lost some of it's depth and soul (not in a religious sense) in the process. Most people can't understand it without the modern definitions. It would be like translating an alien language for them.

    E type is the false ego that overlays your lead and creative cognitive function. It can cause conflict and cognitive dissonance. All I can do is plant some seeds. If they take root and grow then some people will transform their lives. I have been doing this with people on the forum for some time now and other forums before this one. I have seen some pretty amazing things.

    I bumped this to remind people where the system comes from. If anyone wants to use it for self knowledge then they have some basic information here to go on. I think Gurdjieff's The Fourth way is not for the faint of heart. That is not a challenge or an insult to anyone.

    What is referred to as "New Age" beliefs are superficial for the most part, there isn't much discipline and they have no idea where the beliefs they adopt stem from. The term "New age" is used as an umbrella term by those who don't understand or in derogatory ways to lump everyone who has studied the occult in with fluffy bunnies. The term itself in rather new. New Age doesn't apply when there is scholarly interest in these subjects to see what truths are enduring across time and which apply briefly then fade away.

    I am not surprised people don't know this since there are people here who use socionics and have never read a word of Jung, only other people's interpretations of it.

    Gurdjieff and Hermeticism?


    The system, as presented by Gurdjieff, was not a man-made system. While Freud formulated psychoanalysis through his own observation and Darwin formulated evolution through his own studies, Gurdjieff’s system could not have been conceived by a single man or even a group of people, for its purpose would instantly be defeated. That purpose is elevating the human to the superhuman. Human mind has definite limits beyond which it cannot jump, and any system that claims to pull man above himself must originate from beyond man’s limitations.


    That ‘beyond’ need not overly concern the newcomer to the Fourth Way. It will become more evident as he progresses along the path. Gurdjieff called it ‘higher mind’, a source of ‘objective knowledge’. Objective knowledge means knowledge of the objective principles that govern the universe. In this respect, the Fourth Way follows the Hermetic principle of As above so below and as within so without: it outlines the fundamental laws that govern any cosmos, and thereby sheds light onto the micro-cosmos man. It doesn’t belong to anyone, hasn’t originated from anyone and, therefore, will not end with the death of anyone.
    You were just the catalyst. So nothing personal against you here.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    So gut triads have mommy issues, heart triads have daddy issues, and head triads have peer issues.
    If you are curious, conduct your own mini study and make a poll. You can make it anonymous so more people vote. Someone in the future might use that data if you don't. You don't have to do all 9 types. You can just make three choices, gut/mom, heart/dad and head/sibling/peer.

    I don't know how accurate it would be if people don't know their type. I have a feeling more people here would vote sibling/peer issues if they knew their E types.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    So gut triads have mommy issues, heart triads have daddy issues, and head triads have peer issues.
    That part was probably more figurative than not but I identify as a heart type and have more issues with my mother than father, though I don't believe either were too important in the development of my personality.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    If you are curious, conduct your own mini study and make a poll. You can make it anonymous so more people vote. Someone in the future might use that data if you don't. You don't have to do all 9 types. You can just make three choices, gut/mom, heart/dad and head/sibling/peer.

    I don't know how accurate it would be if people don't know their type. I have a feeling more people here would vote sibling/peer issues if they knew their E types.
    Got triggered? Which one have you got?

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    Quote Originally Posted by roger557 View Post
    Got triggered? Which one have you got?
    Not triggered. Why would you think that? I thought it was a good idea. I just don't have the energy to put into it.

    I already posted what I would have voted in this thread. I went more in depth on other threads. I don't need it to be anonymous but some might which is why I suggested that.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    The whole mommy daddy issues is just bullshit from freud that wont go away

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeves View Post
    that makes it difficult for 9s to mistake themselves for 4s, doesn't it
    yet what I have see from several enneagram discussions is that it is easy for the 9 to confuse themselves for a 4 or a 5
    Yea i see that often

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    The whole mommy daddy issues is just bullshit from freud that wont go away
    Depends..

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    Quote Originally Posted by Number 9 large View Post
    The whole mommy daddy issues is just bullshit from freud that wont go away
    If that were true then we wouldn't have so many threads complaining about how their conflictor parent/sibling/peer oppressed them and how their life sucks because of one of these people. Freud just made it more sexual than it actually is. People have been blaming their parents for their own misery way before Freud.

    “My typology is . . . not in any sense to stick labels on people at first sight. It is not a physiognomy and not an anthropological system, but a critical psychology dealing with the organization and delimitation of psychic processes that can be shown to be typical.”​ —C.G. Jung

     



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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    If that were true then we wouldn't have so many threads complaining about how their conflictor parent/sibling/peer oppressed them and how their life sucks because of one of these people. Freud just made it more sexual than it actually is. People have been blaming their parents for their own misery way before Freud.
    People have been blaming external circumstances since forever. What does that have to do with the enneagram

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    woah this is so different from mainstream enneagram teachings. i like how much more complex it is, i've felt theres something missing with what is readily available now. like "yeah I'm this type now what?". its interesting how passive-aggressiveness is related to unhealthy 8 here. i looked up some more on this and i took notes cos I'm a dork but also i wanna get back to it without having to go through a lot of pages. so here it is if someone is interested:

    i relate most to 5 out of these, by far. the childhood pattern is also true. if i go by these i relate most to 5, 4, 1 or 9 for gut (or being) and some to 3.
    being group

    8 over-justice-maker (ego-vengeance) avarice
    9 over-nonconformist (ego-indolence) greed
    1 over-perfectionist (ego-resentment) possessiveness

    living group
    2 over-independent (ego-flattery) envy
    3 over-efficient (ego-go) hate
    4 over-reasoner (ego-melancholy) jealousy

    doing group
    5 over-observer (ego-stinginess) confusion
    6 over-adventurer (ego-cowardice) deceit
    7 over-idealist (ego-planning) mythomania

    [Ichazo seems to assert that each of these artifical “Egos” or false “I”‘s is present in everyone. People ordinarily cycle through all of these on a regular basis. However, one of these Egos becomes the primary fixation, the point from which we continually begin all our processes, giving the impression that this is our real “I”. But in reality, it is just an artifical Ego with which we have become primarily identified through early life circumstances.]

    Dichotomies - invaders - compensation (important to balance the dicho.)
    1 heartless/gushy - jealousies - toximania
    2 fussy/messy - fears - psychosomatic illness
    3 schemer/bullshitter - lies - over-exertion
    4 argumentative/shallow - envies - crime
    5 busybody/loner - hatreds - phobia
    6 workhorse/idler - worries - panic
    7 pretentious/loser - rivalries - gluttony
    8 self-righteous/libertine - remorses - cruelty
    9 believer/doubter - prejudices - sensuality

    Domains of fixation - dichotomies
    1 sentiments: +self control -callousness/+sensitivity -touchy
    2 health/security: +routine -meticulous/+flexibility -negligence
    3 creativity: +knowhow -cunning/+fantasy -daydreaming
    4 intellectual: +reasoning -sophistry/+overview -superficial
    5 social interaction: +sociable -meddling/+privacy -alienation
    6 work/activities: +labor -overwork/+amusement -loafing
    7 hierarchy/authority: +self respect -superiority/+modesty -inferiority
    8 laws/morals: +morality -puritanism/+tolerance -hedonism
    9 spiritual: +spirituality-fanaticism/+realism -scepticism


    there's pages of his teachings on this blog https://oceanmoonshine9.wordpress.co...agram-arica-3/

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    3 is calling my name! I find this quite fascinating. Would like to see more outlier takes on enneagram like this; the contemporary descriptions can become quite boring...

    Ego-Go experiences a sense of being ignored in the childhood relationship with a Father figure.

    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Hyperactivity. The Passion which feeds this ego is Deceit. The primary defense mechanism is Identification. Worsening of this fixation can lead to the Histrionic Personality Disorder. A secondary defense mechanism is Compulsion. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.


    ^This is scarily true for me —> including the childhood neglect of a distant father (he has not changed...)

    7 comes as the second contender, as I felt I was overshadowed by my peers because my mom would go on those “These other kids [insert why they’re better ”] rants.

    This has got me confused on my enneatype yet again, however.
    And I'm what you desire, like a siren in the night



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    What I find amusing is that I can objectively fit myself in six types regarding the mother/father/peer thing but only one causes me stress.

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    woah.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Please don't assume you know about someone's childhood traumas because you know their enneagram type. Just don't do that, k, bye.

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    Well, in my case, enneagram 8, Ichazo nailed it.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Haha, i actually noticed that and thought of you when i posted cuz i figured if it was correct for someone they'd probably assume it must be correct for everyone else

    As for mine - feeling useless - eh, I dunno, not especially so. I didn't feel distinctly useful, but if a 10 year old does, that's probably a bad omen lol. (No offense to 10 year olds). I didn't read every option, but could pick a better one, I'm sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    Haha, I actually noticed that and thought of you when i posted cuz i figured if it was correct for someone they'd probably assume it must be correct for everyone else

    As for mine - feeling useless - eh, I dunno, not especially so. I didn't feel distinctly useful, but if a 10 year old does, that's probably a bad omen lol. (No offense to 10 year olds). I didn't read every option, but could pick a better one, I'm sure.
    I assumed that was the reason for your post. But your warning came too late; I already assumed Ichazo got every childhood trauma correct. Lol.

    You're a six, right? Ichazo says:
    Ego-Cowardice experiences a sense of being Useless in the childhood relationship with siblings and/or peers.
    He doesn't say that e6's feel useless, just that they feel useless in their relationships with siblings and/or peers.

    My last GF was an LSI e6w5, and even though she was the oldest of seven kids and had to take care of them when they were growing up, she often remarked to me that she couldn't protect them from her parent's abuse. As a result, most of her siblings have serious drug and alcohol and law enforcement problems.
    As an adult, she even got a job in Child Protection Services, and told me several times about the kids she had rescued from horrible homes. She was so proud of that.

    FWIW, for a long time, i thought that my mother was the best mother in the world. Well, maybe not the world, but certainly on the block in which we lived. For all practical purposes, it was not safe for me to think otherwise. I'm serious about that. I completely blocked out my feelings in favor of a false, rational story.
    I later had my eyes opened to who she really was, when I saw her treating my son exactly as she had treated me when I was his age. Two minutes of witnessing, and it all came flooding back. This made me reconsider letting him vacation with grandma and grandpa.

    I'm going to put a place marker on this page and re-read it from time to time, to consider what Ichazo said. Maybe he's right in general, maybe he isn't, but I'm paying attention.
    Last edited by Adam Strange; 12-23-2019 at 06:09 PM.

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    Socionics is a spook ashlesha's Avatar
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    Better to just err on the side of not thinking you know about someone's childhood. It's not like you even gotta know it, cuz making assumptions about their core driving motivations is enough.

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    What I relate to:

    Point 4 is known as “Ego-Melancholy”. The fixation is also known as “Over-Reasoner”.


    This ego derives from the Image Ego, which is a response to the Relation Instinct. The psychic poison of the Relation Instinct at the root of Ego-Melancholy is Jealousy.


    Ego-Melancholy experiences a sense of being criticized in the childhood relationship with a Father figure.


    The main ego-characteristic of this fixation is Melancholia. The Passion which feeds this ego is Envy. The primary defense mechanism is Sublimation. Worsening of this fixation can lead to the Borderline Personality Disorder. A secondary defense mechanism is Reaction-formation. Further worsening leads to psychosomatic illness.


    Becoming fixated in the Intellectual Domain, there is a swing to the dichotomies of that domain. This can manifest in a positive sense as a focus on Reason on one side, or having an Overview at the other side. It can manifest in a negative sense as Sophistry at one extreme or Superficiality at the other extreme (? I don't really relate but I am not sure). These dichotomies are represented by two characters: the Argumentative character at one end, the Shallow character at the other. Envies invade the consciousness in this domain. The stress of being fixated and imbalanced in this domain can lead to Crime as a compensatory mechanism. The poison of this domain is Deception.


    This last point- definitely notThe Trap which simultaneously restricts but potentially liberates this ego is its focus on Analysis. The Way of self-realization of this ego is the Way of Clarity, or the way of pure clear analysis.


    The Holy Idea which acts as a catalyzer for the transformation of this ego is Holy Origin, or Divine Origin. This can lead to the Virtue (energy) of Equanimity.


    According to Ichazo, Divine Origin is “The awareness that all individuals are born as the result of natural, objective laws; that these laws continue to operate within them throughout their lives. Because all the laws are interconnected, each individual always has an intimate physical connection with the Totality of Reality – the Cosmos. From this springs true originality.”


    I think there was more to this?

    Okay:

    The Character of the 4th Point:
    The 4th point can be described as an individual who has a dominant Image Ego which stems from the relational instinct found within all human beings. Each person has an instinct to connect with his fellow kin, but this instinct has become over-dominant within the 4th Point on the enneagram and as such has given rise to the an Image-ego of melancholy which is steeped in Jealousy,


    Ego-Melancholy
    The Ego fixation of Melancholy stems from a sense of being criticized early in childhood, or having the childs core identity called into question and there arises a feeling of being flawed. The ego leads to being envious of the lives of others who seem to be so free of flawed nature found within those who reside at the 4th fixation so naturally the question arises, why must I have been denied a proper life.


    Defense Mechanisms:
    As much as there is incredible amounts of jealousy and Envy found that stems from the ego, one cannot live in envy forever and learns to guard against it. The individual fixated onto the 4th point on the Enneagram adapts the defense of sublimation. Freud defined sublimation as the transferring of unacceptable behaviors, idealizations, and ideals into more socially acceptable forms of activities. Sublimation commonly gives rise to 3 professions: Art, scientific inquiry and higher physical activity. The agency responsible for sublimation is a conflict of the Id and Superego which gives rise to the Ego as the only stable structure (Hence why the TYpe 4 is an Ego type) since the type 4 has no stable Id or Superego. The 4th point's true ideals are rising to the top in various expressions that are unknown to the outside observer and as such the true nature of such an individual is obfuscated to the outside world. The second form of defenses that 4th point calls forth is reaction formation against envy, and deems other things mundane and ordinary and as such unworthy of their attention.


    Characteristic Fixation: Intellect
    Intellect may at first appear as a phenomenon of the head triad, or the adaptation instinct, but this is not the case. The intellect refers to reason and comprehension which the 4th point experiences the full spectrum. This ranges from having a focus on reason to a broad overview and a generalization of the world. This leads to having a deep understand at one end, to a superficial and false sense of reason at the other. The fixation of intellect leads to deceit as one is caught in a riptide ranging form reason to fallacy. The intellect is caught in Envy which can be described as for the desire of connection or understanding of another which is not present.


    Trap of the 4th point:
    Those who dwell within the 4th point on the Enneagram fall into the trap of constant analysis of the world around them. Not to be confused with the 5th points trap of observation, to be observed requires a detachment and withdrawal this is rather a search of reason for all that is around the individual. The journey that will liberate the one who is caught in the 4th point is the Way of Clarity which leads to the way of Clear and objective analysis (embodied by the 1st point of the enneagram).


    Divine Origin as the catalyst to the metamorphosis:
    The Diving Origin is rather a very simple Holy Idea that the 4th point has lost sight of: All life found within the world is granted from the same divine laws and mechanism. The lives that have been given to all are equal since they have all originated from the same source and as such all things are unique in their own right and connected due to their intimate source.
    EII-C | INFP | 4(w5)96 sx/so

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    According to Ichazo, Divine Strength is “The awareness that the Cosmos is a self-regulating mechanism, existing in a state of balance, and as long as the objective laws which govern this balance are respected, an individual can exist in a state of harmony with Reality, moving toward his own personal fulfillment. Faith is a Holy Idea, not a belief. It is the certitude that each of us has an Essence and that this Essence coming from God, belongs to God.”

    I agree, but it took me lot of thinking to arrive here tbh..

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