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Thread: Inordinate ESE hate

  1. #81

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    I think IEI works with ESE because IEI are chameleons that can show you what you want to see (same with IEE, but they show you more of what they think you value).

  2. #82
    Serious Left-Static Negativist Eliza Thomason's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nifl View Post
    most people of logical types are able and willing to correct logical mistakes, especially in the relevant setting
    only introversion makes this less likely to happen, but LXI are similarly shy and withdrawn as XLI
    okay

    Quote Originally Posted by nifl View Post
    an even stronger suggestion of our differing types is in our communication style - he seems consistently emotional, centered on people and on experiences related to them. I am logical and somewhat aloof, not good at being charming.
    Also LSIs are not charming but they hold their own quite appropriately in a group situation.

    My understanding is that Sailor has recently been through a large life-changing event/situation, which would easily color ones communication style for a bit. Not sure what you mean by emotional.


    Quote Originally Posted by nifl View Post
    when discussing with others, I like to give them the best procedures for finding their own type, and also to provide examples (Te).
    It is actually markedly characteristic of LSI to embrace procedure, and not so for SLI. I am not saying your are LSI. Sailor suggested it; making it a possibility in my eyes, but I don't know yet.

    Quote Originally Posted by nifl View Post
    also, I have a strong distaste for lies and calumny or exaggeration for emotional effect, blunt, rude, hysterical and insulting behavior (devalued Fe).
    I see how these negatives can at times be associated with Fe in a subtle way but this is no way to characterize Fe-valuers. As you describe this exaggerated, far-end of Fe-valuing, it is something that any Fe- or Fi- valuer has a great distaste for. I mean, who likes lies and calumny? Any valuer can do it, and all valuers hate it.

    Quote Originally Posted by nifl View Post
    Ti leads would find it more interesting to engage with insults and related hysterics, it activates them more, and they are less practical, too. the strange idea that SLI is somehow a logical type without having the characteristics of one is presumably from lack of experience and bad theory.
    I have a LSI brother and I never see him engage with insults or hysterics - never. I can see how you would not consider yourself LSI if if you were LSI and this is how you see LSIs. My brother instead is a wonderful husband and a good father and a well liked worker in the field he has been long successful in. He socializes well and with confidence too. He is respectable. Besides this brother I grew up with, I have a three relatives on my husbands side I see a lot, and NONE of them are insulting or hysterical.

    Quote Originally Posted by nifl View Post
    for people who know the theory there isn't much value in taking quizzes like this, since it is easy to consciously and subcosciously skew the answers to the desired or imagined type
    Wow. I wrote it for you, nifl. I spent a bunch of time on it, after not being online for a very long time. I was inspired about your typing dilemma and so I wrote it for you. Are you afraid to take it because you are afraid of the result? Does it look like too much work for you? I don't know what you mean by "quizzes of this type". I don't do quizzes or trust quizzes, i study from direct sources. They are the questions I go through in my own mind.

    I have to say, a Fi-valuer would not discards someone's obvious effort on their behalf.

    Quote Originally Posted by nifl View Post
    his inability to convincingly argue for his type, coupled with his rude behavior, is unlikely for SLI too. he reacts adversely to arguments against his type in this manner, which can either be explained as Te in superego (facts are a strain to deal with) or non-valued Ne (to describe his motivations, his personality disturbs him). since his behavior is too rude for a Fi type, the Fe types are the most likely ones. and since he seems to mostly stay out of any meaningful conflict, the introverted irrationals are more likely (also his tendency to edit his posts often, some posts where he talked about being spontaneous)
    I did not follow your interactions with Sailor. I accept you feel he was rude while also knowing that online things can be misconstrued when you read them lacking tone of voice and facial expressions.

    Also of course SLI is not a Fi-type, just Fi-valuing. Occasionally my SLI husband's humor doesn't sit well with my Fi-valuing, but I feel it is his habitual type of humor, and I know he doesn't mean it the way it hits me at times. I can give you an example if you want. But the point is, sometimes disagreements between people come up for other reasons than it seems at first. If you are instead a j type vs. p, you may have made a hasty judgment, as j types can at times - that's the flip side of the wonderful and useful decisiveness of j-types.

  3. #83
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Do you have some real life people examples? I'm trying to see eye to eye here with you.
    I gave one example of absurd discussions with ESE here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1542476

    About the coldness. Can't give any examples, it's just something I've seen in some ESEs I know. EIE should be similar too. All types can have imbalance base-suggestive, it's just that it's easier to see in Fe-Ti. But if you know ESE well you should be able to experience it. Unhealthy ESE can have very unpredictable mood. The conscious side is nice, social and constructive and then there's another side that is the total opposite: destructive, cold, devaluing. Less seen, but sometimes pops up.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

  4. #84

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    I can't imagine what it must be like to be surrounded by SFs for NT types. Or to be SF and surrounded by other SFs. There do seem to be a lot of SFs around (could be slightly biased basing this on my work place). This forum seems mostly NT/NF...I kinda like it because I don't relate that well to other NFs in real life and don't have a close NT person in my life atm. In real life I really do need SFs around..and at least one close NF.

  5. #85

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    To people who value inidvidualism, ESE's behaviour come across as overbearing and smothering. My initial reaction was just to distance myself from it, which they are quick to pick up on, too. This to me is suffocating. One ESE I know is extremely anti-intellectual, and I do believe that that has stemmed from valuing and adopting the moral values of her loved ones. In their defence, she will come off as an apologist and not even bat an eyelid when you question her for it.

    At a party, they're fun. I can even tolerate them one on one. But in any other social dynamic, they're way too controlling for me.

  6. #86
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    The Ni PoLR man... I cannot listen to music with headphones, because I hear ESEs voices who call me... I think it's serious, the phantom vibration syndrome is a thing...

    I've read similar posts to this on Reddit. I found an interesting reply who made me think: "Maybe we should make some appreciation posts for ESFJs to counter that hate".

  7. #87

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    From my experience, I think the issue is that they THINK people hate them and then act on those feelings. I didn't hate this person, I just found her intrusive, anti-intellectual and smothering and she wouldn't take no for an answer when I didn't want to or couldn't attend an event? I don't know, sometimes I think people need to get their expectations of others in check.

    Also how many times are you meant to have the same conversation with someone who is clearly misguided on an issue before you shut down?

  8. #88
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I gave one example of absurd discussions with ESE here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1542476
    Lol. I knew a male ESE that reminds me of. I usually feel that kind of angry passion is funny, but also appealing in a way. Someone who just feels what they feel, and isn't afraid of the consequences of speaking it seems admirable! Most people are selfish, but double-minded about it. They "know" what they do is wrong but make excuses about it to themselves and suppress their reactions if they get exposed. I feel like this kind of reaction is more honest if anything. As well as just being fun.

    I think if I had a friend who reacted like that that my reaction would be something in the spirit of "yeah! You're great! How dare those heartless bean counters bust you" and just keep enjoying the outburst.

    About the coldness. Can't give any examples, it's just something I've seen in some ESEs I know. EIE should be similar too. All types can have imbalance base-suggestive, it's just that it's easier to see in Fe-Ti. But if you know ESE well you should be able to experience it. Unhealthy ESE can have very unpredictable mood. The conscious side is nice, social and constructive and then there's another side that is the total opposite: destructive, cold, devaluing. Less seen, but sometimes pops up.
    I know what you mean, though I guess to the extent I've thought about it I've thought it has more to do with Ne HA/Ni PoLR. IME this side usually comes out when they're sensitive about how they're treated/seen. And the mindset seems to be something like "I've just been who I am! I can't have done anything else. If I'm not accepted then what is the point of existing..." And their minds start racing, more in the abstract sort of way, trying to "get behind" or understand "the point" of things, which I associate more with N than T. Their thoughts can get pretty morbid.

    Again, since IME this mostly just happens when they're feeling upset, being nice to them takes them out of this mode quickly. Since it's so easy to cheer them up I don't personally mind this kind of thing.

  9. #89
    What's the purpose of SEI? Tallmo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Lol. I knew a male ESE that reminds me of. I usually feel that kind of angry passion is funny, but also appealing in a way. Someone who just feels what they feel, and isn't afraid of the consequences of speaking it seems admirable! Most people are selfish, but double-minded about it. They "know" what they do is wrong but make excuses about it to themselves and suppress their reactions if they get exposed. I feel like this kind of reaction is more honest if anything. As well as just being fun.
    yeah, I guess an LII can tolerate it better. But she is basically saying that rules should not apply to her, and because something negative happened to her it is "bad taste" by the inspectors, because it was on Christmas day. Instead of just admitting it was her own fault. Of course she wouldn't make such conclusions herself. This was pretty harmless, but in another, more serious situation, this basically means being totally selfish and self-centered and expecting the world to obey her. I've seen that too, and it's hard to deal with because the ESE is really clueless about what he is doing.

    I think if I had a friend who reacted like that that my reaction would be something in the spirit of "yeah! You're great! How dare those heartless bean counters bust you" and just keep enjoying the outburst.
    LII seems to be able to adjust to this, they might be able to summarize the situation or other things that helps the ESE without going into opposition.


    I know what you mean, though I guess to the extent I've thought about it I've thought it has more to do with Ne HA/Ni PoLR. IME this side usually comes out when they're sensitive about how they're treated/seen. And the mindset seems to be something like "I've just been who I am! I can't have done anything else. If I'm not accepted then what is the point of existing..." And their minds start racing, more in the abstract sort of way, trying to "get behind" or understand "the point" of things, which I associate more with N than T. Their thoughts can get pretty morbid.
    That sounds like Ti though. Or at least Ti related. I am talking about really ice cold, blunt conclusions, or over-generalizations like "everything is just X", "nothing but X". The extreme coldness is maybe rare but it's like the opposite of Fe and of their whole conscious personality. Their Ne intuition is fairly good and the Ni is neurotic about time and processes. About bad Ti, Jung has some interesting observations at the end of section "Extroverted Feeling Type". The thing is that my first girlfriend was ESE and I remember well these strange mood changes from love to hate (or rather devaluation) and warmth to blunt coldness. Like a split personality. It was a long time ago, but still in my mind. No hard feelings though, anymore

    Again, since IME this mostly just happens when they're feeling upset, being nice to them takes them out of this mode quickly. Since it's so easy to cheer them up I don't personally mind this kind of thing.
    Again, it depends on your type. Even the mere presence of good Ti should make the atmosphere more stable. You might not even have to say that much.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    clip from Outlander book/show written by ESE..I always found Claire uncharacteristically harsh towards the young girl. Claire is ESE/SEE-ish

  11. #91

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    I think ESE is hands down the most misaligned type in all of English socionics. The amount of hate this type receives is disproportionate.

  12. #92

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post


    Claire is ESE/SEE-ish


    A bit of both types.

  13. #93

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post



    That sounds like Ti though. Or at least Ti related. I am talking about really ice cold, blunt conclusions, or over-generalizations like "everything is just X", "nothing but X". The extreme coldness is maybe rare but it's like the opposite of Fe and of their whole conscious personality. Their Ne intuition is fairly good and the Ni is neurotic about time and processes. About bad Ti, Jung has some interesting observations at the end of section "Extroverted Feeling Type". The thing is that my first girlfriend was ESE and I remember well these strange mood changes from love to hate (or rather devaluation) and warmth to blunt coldness. Like a split personality. It was a long time ago, but still in my mind. No hard feelings though, anymore
    Such is the nature of our natures. Some people just "are" and there is nothing you can do or say about it.

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