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Thread: Inordinate ESE hate

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Do you have some real life people examples? I'm trying to see eye to eye here with you.
    I gave one example of absurd discussions with ESE here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1542476

    About the coldness. Can't give any examples, it's just something I've seen in some ESEs I know. EIE should be similar too. All types can have imbalance base-suggestive, it's just that it's easier to see in Fe-Ti. But if you know ESE well you should be able to experience it. Unhealthy ESE can have very unpredictable mood. The conscious side is nice, social and constructive and then there's another side that is the total opposite: destructive, cold, devaluing. Less seen, but sometimes pops up.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    I can't imagine what it must be like to be surrounded by SFs for NT types. Or to be SF and surrounded by other SFs. There do seem to be a lot of SFs around (could be slightly biased basing this on my work place). This forum seems mostly NT/NF...I kinda like it because I don't relate that well to other NFs in real life and don't have a close NT person in my life atm. In real life I really do need SFs around..and at least one close NF.

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    To people who value inidvidualism, ESE's behaviour come across as overbearing and smothering. My initial reaction was just to distance myself from it, which they are quick to pick up on, too. This to me is suffocating. One ESE I know is extremely anti-intellectual, and I do believe that that has stemmed from valuing and adopting the moral values of her loved ones. In their defence, she will come off as an apologist and not even bat an eyelid when you question her for it.

    At a party, they're fun. I can even tolerate them one on one. But in any other social dynamic, they're way too controlling for me.

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    From my experience, I think the issue is that they THINK people hate them and then act on those feelings. I didn't hate this person, I just found her intrusive, anti-intellectual and smothering and she wouldn't take no for an answer when I didn't want to or couldn't attend an event? I don't know, sometimes I think people need to get their expectations of others in check.

    Also how many times are you meant to have the same conversation with someone who is clearly misguided on an issue before you shut down?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    I gave one example of absurd discussions with ESE here: https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...=1#post1542476
    Lol. I knew a male ESE that reminds me of. I usually feel that kind of angry passion is funny, but also appealing in a way. Someone who just feels what they feel, and isn't afraid of the consequences of speaking it seems admirable! Most people are selfish, but double-minded about it. They "know" what they do is wrong but make excuses about it to themselves and suppress their reactions if they get exposed. I feel like this kind of reaction is more honest if anything. As well as just being fun.

    I think if I had a friend who reacted like that that my reaction would be something in the spirit of "yeah! You're great! How dare those heartless bean counters bust you" and just keep enjoying the outburst.

    About the coldness. Can't give any examples, it's just something I've seen in some ESEs I know. EIE should be similar too. All types can have imbalance base-suggestive, it's just that it's easier to see in Fe-Ti. But if you know ESE well you should be able to experience it. Unhealthy ESE can have very unpredictable mood. The conscious side is nice, social and constructive and then there's another side that is the total opposite: destructive, cold, devaluing. Less seen, but sometimes pops up.
    I know what you mean, though I guess to the extent I've thought about it I've thought it has more to do with Ne HA/Ni PoLR. IME this side usually comes out when they're sensitive about how they're treated/seen. And the mindset seems to be something like "I've just been who I am! I can't have done anything else. If I'm not accepted then what is the point of existing..." And their minds start racing, more in the abstract sort of way, trying to "get behind" or understand "the point" of things, which I associate more with N than T. Their thoughts can get pretty morbid.

    Again, since IME this mostly just happens when they're feeling upset, being nice to them takes them out of this mode quickly. Since it's so easy to cheer them up I don't personally mind this kind of thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FreelancePoliceman View Post
    Lol. I knew a male ESE that reminds me of. I usually feel that kind of angry passion is funny, but also appealing in a way. Someone who just feels what they feel, and isn't afraid of the consequences of speaking it seems admirable! Most people are selfish, but double-minded about it. They "know" what they do is wrong but make excuses about it to themselves and suppress their reactions if they get exposed. I feel like this kind of reaction is more honest if anything. As well as just being fun.
    yeah, I guess an LII can tolerate it better. But she is basically saying that rules should not apply to her, and because something negative happened to her it is "bad taste" by the inspectors, because it was on Christmas day. Instead of just admitting it was her own fault. Of course she wouldn't make such conclusions herself. This was pretty harmless, but in another, more serious situation, this basically means being totally selfish and self-centered and expecting the world to obey her. I've seen that too, and it's hard to deal with because the ESE is really clueless about what he is doing.

    I think if I had a friend who reacted like that that my reaction would be something in the spirit of "yeah! You're great! How dare those heartless bean counters bust you" and just keep enjoying the outburst.
    LII seems to be able to adjust to this, they might be able to summarize the situation or other things that helps the ESE without going into opposition.


    I know what you mean, though I guess to the extent I've thought about it I've thought it has more to do with Ne HA/Ni PoLR. IME this side usually comes out when they're sensitive about how they're treated/seen. And the mindset seems to be something like "I've just been who I am! I can't have done anything else. If I'm not accepted then what is the point of existing..." And their minds start racing, more in the abstract sort of way, trying to "get behind" or understand "the point" of things, which I associate more with N than T. Their thoughts can get pretty morbid.
    That sounds like Ti though. Or at least Ti related. I am talking about really ice cold, blunt conclusions, or over-generalizations like "everything is just X", "nothing but X". The extreme coldness is maybe rare but it's like the opposite of Fe and of their whole conscious personality. Their Ne intuition is fairly good and the Ni is neurotic about time and processes. About bad Ti, Jung has some interesting observations at the end of section "Extroverted Feeling Type". The thing is that my first girlfriend was ESE and I remember well these strange mood changes from love to hate (or rather devaluation) and warmth to blunt coldness. Like a split personality. It was a long time ago, but still in my mind. No hard feelings though, anymore

    Again, since IME this mostly just happens when they're feeling upset, being nice to them takes them out of this mode quickly. Since it's so easy to cheer them up I don't personally mind this kind of thing.
    Again, it depends on your type. Even the mere presence of good Ti should make the atmosphere more stable. You might not even have to say that much.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    clip from Outlander book/show written by ESE..I always found Claire uncharacteristically harsh towards the young girl. Claire is ESE/SEE-ish

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    I think ESE is hands down the most misaligned type in all of English socionics. The amount of hate this type receives is disproportionate.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post


    Claire is ESE/SEE-ish


    A bit of both types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post



    That sounds like Ti though. Or at least Ti related. I am talking about really ice cold, blunt conclusions, or over-generalizations like "everything is just X", "nothing but X". The extreme coldness is maybe rare but it's like the opposite of Fe and of their whole conscious personality. Their Ne intuition is fairly good and the Ni is neurotic about time and processes. About bad Ti, Jung has some interesting observations at the end of section "Extroverted Feeling Type". The thing is that my first girlfriend was ESE and I remember well these strange mood changes from love to hate (or rather devaluation) and warmth to blunt coldness. Like a split personality. It was a long time ago, but still in my mind. No hard feelings though, anymore
    Such is the nature of our natures. Some people just "are" and there is nothing you can do or say about it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    I think ESE is hands down the most misaligned type in all of English socionics. The amount of hate this type receives is disproportionate.
    In real life at least, they can be taken for granted, similar to IEIs..SEI,SEE,ESE don’t appear to be much discussed here. I think it’s because they are the types who live most ‘in the moment’ and are very people focused (why there are not many on the site, they are focused on people around them in real life). It’s hard to comment on their behaviour because it varies a lot from day to day.

    ESE can be good grassroots social activists too (stole that from another thread). They are less militant than other types..
    Last edited by Bethany; 12-04-2022 at 09:55 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Such is the nature of our natures. Some people just "are" and there is nothing you can do or say about it.
    It's a direct consequence of too much / too disintegrated base Fe, creating a counter-reaction from Ti. Basic reason is a bad sense of self, I would say, creating this vicious pendulum. The healthy ESEs, EIEs, are very different, genuinely charming people, no feeling of manipulation or pose or coldness.
    The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.

    (Jung on Si)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tallmo View Post
    It's a direct consequence of too much / too disintegrated base Fe, creating a counter-reaction from Ti. Basic reason is a bad sense of self, I would say, creating this vicious pendulum. The healthy ESEs, EIEs, are very different, genuinely charming people, no feeling of manipulation or pose or coldness.
    Well, I know ESE mathematics teacher. She was not liked. The topic she taught made her very cutting and sharp person. It seemed stressful position. She was full of fury agonyl. I ran away from that (it could have been my position in the future).
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    The healthy ESE is not hateable, in fact quite the contrary. The unhealthy ESE will wreak havoc, but they're not instigators. So you can't even hate them then.

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    Quote Originally Posted by one View Post
    Just a random thought, I think this whole talking about types could be off-putting to ESEs. Maybe that's why they are not here. Like this X type is annoying because etc etc when in the end we're just talking about random concepts and patterns in our head. It's also just not that graceful and civil. I kinda regret joining in now but I already typed so much.
    Are you implying that everyone here is intuitive and some types don't give a shit about socionics? Outrageous!
    the majority of people who browse this site are IEI. intuition of time is the function that is interested in the psychological state of human beings. typology is a field dominated by INxx, especially IEI.

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    Forums like this tend to procure people that are looking for something that makes them unique, that separates them from the rest; “I’m not like the other girls” teen angst.

    Imaginary ESE is the type that serves as the perferct antagonist: half-EIE emotionality, half-IEE ‘challenged-individual’ .

    It all depends on the ITR but I've met a couple of ESEs and they've shown more mental consistency than IEE airheads.

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    ESE is the every girl..

    In the same way LSE can be bully-ish, ESE can too. But they’re more vulnerable than LSE.

    EJs are the most competitive (and SLE). They need to feel like leaders- strong, and sometimes it goes to their head.
    Last edited by Bethany; 12-12-2022 at 09:36 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bethany View Post
    ESE is the every girl..
    In MHO the every girl profile, as far as it corresponds to ‘typical’ feminine emotionality, social energy and manipulation of a person's own display of outward emotions, and is perhaps more easily recognizable as the standard/cliché temperament profile in females, aka: in the direction of the ‘cheerleader, woohoo’ stereotype at a higher rate relative to males, tends to correlate maybe more to EIEs younger/young women. Gulenko wrote that EIE is the predominant type for women and it should be noted that his statement coexists with the popular notion that it's not uncommon for the description I just wrote to apply more to women at a significant level or enough to paint an instantly recognizable form in a person’s mind. ESEs have strambotic Ni polr so they actually deviate from the every girl stereotype in what I perceive of them. I believe 'The Enthusiast' eponym played a trick on non-Russian speakers because it's not based of Fe excitability per se but more on ESE's vulnerable function.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Rusal View Post
    In MHO the every girl profile, as far as it corresponds to ‘typical’ feminine emotionality, social energy and manipulation of a person's own display of outward emotions, and is perhaps more easily recognizable as the standard/cliché temperament profile in females, aka: in the direction of the ‘cheerleader, woohoo’ stereotype at a higher rate relative to males, tends to correlate maybe more to EIEs younger/young women. Gulenko wrote that EIE is the predominant type for women and it should be noted that his statement coexists with the popular notion that it's not uncommon for the description I just wrote to apply more to women at a significant level or enough to paint an instantly recognizable form in a person’s mind. ESEs have strambotic Ni polr so they actually deviate from the every girl stereotype in what I perceive of them. I believe 'The Enthusiast' eponym played a trick on non-Russian speakers because it's not based of Fe excitability per se but more on ESE's vulnerable function.


    Hm I don’t think EIEs have enough self-awareness to be thought of as ‘every girl’. Maybe men think women are like EIEs. EIE could be the ESE’s bestie..

    I doubt EIE is the predominant type for women..SFs seem a common type for women

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    Ah yes, the famous delta ST patronizing. Such a turn on, for some people.

    "Tell me how I'm wrong?"
    I do enjoy turning people on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by timber View Post
    I think ESE is hands down the most misaligned type in all of English socionics. The amount of hate this type receives is disproportionate.
    Strong evidence that most people who study socionics are ILI. I enjoy ESE characters like Sakura.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PrelapsarianAdam View Post
    Strong evidence that most people who study socionics are ILI. I enjoy ESE characters like Sakura.
    I'm not familiar with the Character.

    This forum is hilarious. I've been here for over 10 years and the crowds have changed lots during that time. In the beginning of my time it was all Alpha NTs in this place. Then it was lots of betas - deltas - gammas. Most of them no longer sign in. Back then forums were social media.

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    I analyzed a lot of ESEs and I've come to the conclusion this is one of the types which changes most in regard to gender. Maybe because Female have a strenghtned Fe, while males more introverted funtions (idk, but there is an explenation for sure).

    I consider two ESEs male friends of mine the best individuals I ever met, socially speaking. They are perfectly equilibrate. Smart, nice, know what to say to everyone and make other laught, yet are unobstrusive and live in the moment peacefully without any sort of drama. They are sensitive but perfectly collected and never have moments in which their emotions overflow, despite being extraverts. When they have anxiety about the future, they just talk about it with close friends and vent in private.

    While, in most of the ESEs girls I always find excessive problems related to anxiety and burst of emotion. They have haste in doing things and in the end take the worst path (they fear the future, due to ni polr, and so they do excessive planning). Thousand of changing ideas and plans that brings nowhere and are forgotten after two days, and they need to speak about them anyway. Also, their demonstrative Se makes them appearing cringe at times. I consider demonstrative also as the "social expectation" function. Talking about the importance of money and their projects just because they want the other to believe they are doing important things (even while not doing a sh1t), for this fear of being judged, while nobody cares and just find their empty words unnecessary. Obviously this is just what I'm experiencing, but lmao I get to know new ese girls so often and they are all like this.

    I hope my comment doesn't make anyone angry. These are just my empirical observations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mairon View Post
    I analyzed a lot of ESEs and I've come to the conclusion this is one of the types which changes most in regard to gender. Maybe because Female have a strenghtned Fe, while males more introverted funtions (idk, but there is an explenation for sure).

    I consider two ESEs male friends of mine the best individuals I ever met, socially speaking. They are perfectly equilibrate. Smart, nice, know what to say to everyone and make other laught, yet are unobstrusive and live in the moment peacefully without any sort of drama. They are sensitive but perfectly collected and never have moments in which their emotions overflow, despite being extraverts. When they have anxiety about the future, they just talk about it with close friends and vent in private.

    While, in most of the ESEs girls I always find excessive problems related to anxiety and burst of emotion. They have haste in doing things and in the end take the worst path (they fear the future, due to ni polr, and so they do excessive planning). Thousand of changing ideas and plans that brings nowhere and are forgotten after two days, and they need to speak about them anyway. Also, their demonstrative Se makes them appearing cringe at times. I consider demonstrative also as the "social expectation" function. Talking about the importance of money and their projects just because they want the other to believe they are doing important things (even while not doing a sh1t), for this fear of being judged, while nobody cares and just find their empty words unnecessary. Obviously this is just what I'm experiencing, but lmao I get to know new ese girls so often and they are all like this.

    I hope my comment doesn't make anyone angry. These are just my empirical observations.
    I noticed my ESE dad acts like how you describe the males (eloquent, very socially skilled, calm, collected) in public, but in private, he acts more like how you describe the females (emotional outbursts, fearful of the future, very strict scheduling, validation-seeking in how he compares with others). But another ESE male I knew was one of the kindest, most calm, giving individuals I have met… just a very sensitive soul.

    I think it’s a lot more socially acceptable for women to be overly emotionally indulgent while men are expected to be more calm and collected. ESE seems to be the type who is the most sensitive about fitting into social normative roles/gender roles.

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    I remember going for dinner to my EIE friend’s house in my early twenties. Her ESE best friend/ room mate was there. I don’t think the ESE liked me- I’d met her before. She kept yelling at my EIE friend when we were making dinner. She kept hounding the EIE, telling her she didn’t have a real job so didn’t have the right to complain about work. It was so
    rude, in front of a guest. The same person also sold drugs to my sister and she was hospitalised afterwards- and then tried to deny selling it. They’re not all nice, fact, especially when they’re young. SEE/ ESE probably cause a lot of harm in high school. SEIs can also egg people on/ be bitchy.

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