I can't imagine what it must be like to be surrounded by SFs for NT types. Or to be SF and surrounded by other SFs. There do seem to be a lot of SFs around (could be slightly biased basing this on my work place). This forum seems mostly NT/NF...I kinda like it because I don't relate that well to other NFs in real life and don't have a close NT person in my life atm. In real life I really do need SFs around..and at least one close NF.
To people who value inidvidualism, ESE's behaviour come across as overbearing and smothering. My initial reaction was just to distance myself from it, which they are quick to pick up on, too. This to me is suffocating. One ESE I know is extremely anti-intellectual, and I do believe that that has stemmed from valuing and adopting the moral values of her loved ones. In their defence, she will come off as an apologist and not even bat an eyelid when you question her for it.
At a party, they're fun. I can even tolerate them one on one. But in any other social dynamic, they're way too controlling for me.
From my experience, I think the issue is that they THINK people hate them and then act on those feelings. I didn't hate this person, I just found her intrusive, anti-intellectual and smothering and she wouldn't take no for an answer when I didn't want to or couldn't attend an event? I don't know, sometimes I think people need to get their expectations of others in check.
Also how many times are you meant to have the same conversation with someone who is clearly misguided on an issue before you shut down?
Lol. I knew a male ESE that reminds me of. I usually feel that kind of angry passion is funny, but also appealing in a way. Someone who just feels what they feel, and isn't afraid of the consequences of speaking it seems admirable! Most people are selfish, but double-minded about it. They "know" what they do is wrong but make excuses about it to themselves and suppress their reactions if they get exposed. I feel like this kind of reaction is more honest if anything. As well as just being fun.Originally Posted by Tallmo
I think if I had a friend who reacted like that that my reaction would be something in the spirit of "yeah! You're great! How dare those heartless bean counters bust you" and just keep enjoying the outburst.
I know what you mean, though I guess to the extent I've thought about it I've thought it has more to do with Ne HA/Ni PoLR. IME this side usually comes out when they're sensitive about how they're treated/seen. And the mindset seems to be something like "I've just been who I am! I can't have done anything else. If I'm not accepted then what is the point of existing..." And their minds start racing, more in the abstract sort of way, trying to "get behind" or understand "the point" of things, which I associate more with N than T. Their thoughts can get pretty morbid.About the coldness. Can't give any examples, it's just something I've seen in some ESEs I know. EIE should be similar too. All types can have imbalance base-suggestive, it's just that it's easier to see in Fe-Ti. But if you know ESE well you should be able to experience it. Unhealthy ESE can have very unpredictable mood. The conscious side is nice, social and constructive and then there's another side that is the total opposite: destructive, cold, devaluing. Less seen, but sometimes pops up.
Again, since IME this mostly just happens when they're feeling upset, being nice to them takes them out of this mode quickly. Since it's so easy to cheer them up I don't personally mind this kind of thing.
yeah, I guess an LII can tolerate it better. But she is basically saying that rules should not apply to her, and because something negative happened to her it is "bad taste" by the inspectors, because it was on Christmas day. Instead of just admitting it was her own fault. Of course she wouldn't make such conclusions herself. This was pretty harmless, but in another, more serious situation, this basically means being totally selfish and self-centered and expecting the world to obey her. I've seen that too, and it's hard to deal with because the ESE is really clueless about what he is doing.
LII seems to be able to adjust to this, they might be able to summarize the situation or other things that helps the ESE without going into opposition.I think if I had a friend who reacted like that that my reaction would be something in the spirit of "yeah! You're great! How dare those heartless bean counters bust you" and just keep enjoying the outburst.
That sounds like Ti though. Or at least Ti related. I am talking about really ice cold, blunt conclusions, or over-generalizations like "everything is just X", "nothing but X". The extreme coldness is maybe rare but it's like the opposite of Fe and of their whole conscious personality. Their Ne intuition is fairly good and the Ni is neurotic about time and processes. About bad Ti, Jung has some interesting observations at the end of section "Extroverted Feeling Type". The thing is that my first girlfriend was ESE and I remember well these strange mood changes from love to hate (or rather devaluation) and warmth to blunt coldness. Like a split personality. It was a long time ago, but still in my mind. No hard feelings though, anymoreI know what you mean, though I guess to the extent I've thought about it I've thought it has more to do with Ne HA/Ni PoLR. IME this side usually comes out when they're sensitive about how they're treated/seen. And the mindset seems to be something like "I've just been who I am! I can't have done anything else. If I'm not accepted then what is the point of existing..." And their minds start racing, more in the abstract sort of way, trying to "get behind" or understand "the point" of things, which I associate more with N than T. Their thoughts can get pretty morbid.
Again, it depends on your type. Even the mere presence of good Ti should make the atmosphere more stable. You might not even have to say that much.Again, since IME this mostly just happens when they're feeling upset, being nice to them takes them out of this mode quickly. Since it's so easy to cheer them up I don't personally mind this kind of thing.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
clip from Outlander book/show written by ESE..I always found Claire uncharacteristically harsh towards the young girl. Claire is ESE/SEE-ish
I think ESE is hands down the most misaligned type in all of English socionics. The amount of hate this type receives is disproportionate.
A bit of both types.
Such is the nature of our natures. Some people just "are" and there is nothing you can do or say about it.
That sounds like Ti though. Or at least Ti related. I am talking about really ice cold, blunt conclusions, or over-generalizations like "everything is just X", "nothing but X". The extreme coldness is maybe rare but it's like the opposite of Fe and of their whole conscious personality. Their Ne intuition is fairly good and the Ni is neurotic about time and processes. About bad Ti, Jung has some interesting observations at the end of section "Extroverted Feeling Type". The thing is that my first girlfriend was ESE and I remember well these strange mood changes from love to hate (or rather devaluation) and warmth to blunt coldness. Like a split personality. It was a long time ago, but still in my mind. No hard feelings though, anymore
In real life at least, they can be taken for granted, similar to IEIs..SEI,SEE,ESE don’t appear to be much discussed here. I think it’s because they are the types who live most ‘in the moment’ and are very people focused (why there are not many on the site, they are focused on people around them in real life). It’s hard to comment on their behaviour because it varies a lot from day to day.
ESE can be good grassroots social activists too (stole that from another thread). They are less militant than other types..
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 12-04-2022 at 08:55 AM.
It's a direct consequence of too much / too disintegrated base Fe, creating a counter-reaction from Ti. Basic reason is a bad sense of self, I would say, creating this vicious pendulum. The healthy ESEs, EIEs, are very different, genuinely charming people, no feeling of manipulation or pose or coldness.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
Well, I know ESE mathematics teacher. She was not liked. The topic she taught made her very cutting and sharp person. It seemed stressful position. She was full of fury agonyl. I ran away from that (it could have been my position in the future).
MOTTO: NEVER TRUST IN REALITY
Winning is for losers
Sincerely yours,
idiosyncratic type
Life is a joke but do you have a life?
Joinif you dare https://matrix.to/#/#The16Types:matrix.org
The healthy ESE is not hateable, in fact quite the contrary. The unhealthy ESE will wreak havoc, but they're not instigators. So you can't even hate them then.
Are you implying that everyone here is intuitive and some types don't give a shit about socionics? Outrageous!
my ideas about socionics:
https://soziotypen.de/thoughts-on-socionics/
the section will be updated ever other month or so.
this is a VI thread with IEI examples
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...-(IEI-edition)
and this is a thread with EIE examples
https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...s-EIE-examples
Forums like this tend to procure people that are looking for something that makes them unique, that separates them from the rest; “I’m not like the other girls” teen angst.
Imaginary ESE is the type that serves as the perferct antagonist: half-EIE emotionality, half-IEE ‘challenged-individual’.
It all depends on the ITR but I've met a couple of ESEs and they've shown more mental consistency than IEE airheads.
Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.
ESE is the every girl..
In the same way LSE can be bully-ish, ESE can too. But they’re more vulnerable than LSE.
EJs are the most competitive (and SLE). They need to feel like leaders- strong, and sometimes it goes to their head.
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 12-12-2022 at 08:36 AM.
In MHO the every girl profile, as far as it corresponds to ‘typical’ feminine emotionality, social energy and manipulation of a person's own display of outward emotions, and is perhaps more easily recognizable as the standard/cliché temperament profile in females, aka: in the direction of the ‘cheerleader, woohoo’ stereotype at a higher rate relative to males, tends to correlate maybe more to EIEs younger/young women. Gulenko wrote that EIE is the predominant type for women and it should be noted that his statement coexists with the popular notion that it's not uncommon for the description I just wrote to apply more to women at a significant level or enough to paint an instantly recognizable form in a person’s mind. ESEs have strambotic Ni polr so they actually deviate from the every girl stereotype in what I perceive of them. I believe 'The Enthusiast' eponym played a trick on non-Russian speakers because it's not based of Fe excitability per se but more on ESE's vulnerable function.
Sicuramente cercherai il significato di questo.
Hm I don’t think EIEs have enough self-awareness to be thought of as ‘every girl’. Maybe men think women are like EIEs. EIE could be the ESE’s bestie..
I doubt EIE is the predominant type for women..SFs seem a common type for women
I do enjoy turning people on.
Strong evidence that most people who study socionics are ILI. I enjoy ESE characters like Sakura.
[Today 03:36 AM] anotherperson: this forum feels like the edge of the internet
I'm not familiar with the Character.
This forum is hilarious. I've been here for over 10 years and the crowds have changed lots during that time. In the beginning of my time it was all Alpha NTs in this place. Then it was lots of betas - deltas - gammas. Most of them no longer sign in. Back then forums were social media.
I analyzed a lot of ESEs and I've come to the conclusion this is one of the types which changes most in regard to gender. Maybe because Female have a strenghtned Fe, while males more introverted funtions (idk, but there is an explenation for sure).
I consider two ESEs male friends of mine the best individuals I ever met, socially speaking. They are perfectly equilibrate. Smart, nice, know what to say to everyone and make other laught, yet are unobstrusive and live in the moment peacefully without any sort of drama. They are sensitive but perfectly collected and never have moments in which their emotions overflow, despite being extraverts. When they have anxiety about the future, they just talk about it with close friends and vent in private.
While, in most of the ESEs girls I always find excessive problems related to anxiety and burst of emotion. They have haste in doing things and in the end take the worst path (they fear the future, due to ni polr, and so they do excessive planning). Thousand of changing ideas and plans that brings nowhere and are forgotten after two days, and they need to speak about them anyway. Also, their demonstrative Se makes them appearing cringe at times. I consider demonstrative also as the "social expectation" function. Talking about the importance of money and their projects just because they want the other to believe they are doing important things (even while not doing a sh1t), for this fear of being judged, while nobody cares and just find their empty words unnecessary. Obviously this is just what I'm experiencing, but lmao I get to know new ese girls so often and they are all like this.
I hope my comment doesn't make anyone angry. These are just my empirical observations.
I noticed my ESE dad acts like how you describe the males (eloquent, very socially skilled, calm, collected) in public, but in private, he acts more like how you describe the females (emotional outbursts, fearful of the future, very strict scheduling, validation-seeking in how he compares with others). But another ESE male I knew was one of the kindest, most calm, giving individuals I have met… just a very sensitive soul.
I think it’s a lot more socially acceptable for women to be overly emotionally indulgent while men are expected to be more calm and collected. ESE seems to be the type who is the most sensitive about fitting into social normative roles/gender roles.
I remember going for dinner to my EIE friend’s house in my early twenties. Her ESE best friend/ room mate was there. I don’t think the ESE liked me- I’d met her before. She kept yelling at my EIE friend when we were making dinner. She kept hounding the EIE, telling her she didn’t have a real job so didn’t have the right to complain about work. It was so
rude, in front of a guest. The same person also sold drugs to my sister and she was hospitalised afterwards- and then tried to deny selling it. They’re not all nice, fact, especially when they’re young. SEE/ ESE probably cause a lot of harm in high school. SEIs can also egg people on/ be bitchy.
Well. I saw an ESE therapist once. I’d had a few sessions previously with a trainee therapist- five or something, nothing more ever before that. A year later I call back the service to say I need more help. They arrange for me to see a therapist at a GP surgery. One of the most awful people I’ve ever met-pretty sure she was ESE. I asked for more support- she asked me have you tried the techniques you learnt before with the therapist? I’m honest and I explain no blah blah maybe. I tell her that I engage in my ‘ocd problem’ when watching tv. She says don’t watch tv. (Lol). I tell her, the first person I’ve told ever, this problem has stopped me ever having a relationship. She says ‘what never?’ And pulls a judgy look. She sends me away to try harder..
of course the problem persists and later I see another therapist and do group therapy. Recently I called them back and they arranged for someone to call me and talk things over, this time I think the lady was LSI and she was lovely. I may or may not have more therapy (but would probably have to go private this time- people in the UK are so used to free health care it can be confusing where to go for private, but they have started sign posting better now, kinda coz they have to). I may not even need it.
But yeah that ESE lady was evil to me that day
all coz she had an agenda that you need to give things a proper go before being deserving of help. Jesus.
edit: tbh I’m wondering if she could have been LSE. Still I have my run ins with ESE- they will often put on a facade of wanting to help you, but really they just want to look like they’re helping you, to make them feel better about themselves
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 05-01-2023 at 11:14 AM.
All types are similar in a harm and use. They differ in what kinds of those do more.
In negative IR people pay more of attention on negative sides and underesteemate positive sides, what influences on general perception.
Also people with objectively negative behavior and having bad IR will be evaluated worse, due to sum effect. Because of this more of "worst ones" should be remembered among with bad IR.
Objectivity and perception about people match not good, same as for many other what exists in the life.
//
If you have IEI, then remembered as "very bad SEE" are suspicious to have worse IR. As positive IR soften negative impression of a human and of what he does, besides lesser chance you'll perceive his actions as not appropriate.
@Sol I don’t know Sol, would this therapist have been so harsh on another? Perhaps I triggered something in her as her supervisor. It’s my thinking that ESE therapists can make big mistakes. She was likely just a rude sort of person. But it’s a big mistake and there should be things in place to not let it happen- more advice/ guidance/ regulation by non ESE types maybe
SF can be regimented robot like, not contextualising situations, too harsh, quick to judge..and they are often in support roles..more NF guidance is necessary for support to be better accessible and appropriate
Last edited by Bethanyclaire; 03-25-2023 at 08:01 PM.
my ESE neighbour (above) is driving me nuts. She is only a young girl but she has 100% ignored me when I've complained about noise- footsteps/ scrapes which are really really loud. She will have to do something in the end because I'll keep complaining to the powers that be. But she seems to have decided I'm not worthy of respect. In her own world. If I'd have been more ESE-ish and approached her in an ESE way she probs would have been nicer. As it is, I can only communicate with her via note- attempting to make the notes nicer- I will not knock on her door as it's too tense atm, but maybe she will knock on mine if I get the wording right. I know I sound cowardly but this issue started when I was going through my toughening up yet being bullied phase, and I could not deal with it..
I think it's less of her being ESE, but rather her self centered nature. It's not always that deep, just file complaints and talk to other neighbors if they have the same issues with that woman. If that is so, then everyone can file complaints, and that woman will get a serious notice, hopefully that would get her to change.
It wouldn’t affect anyone else- it’s just noise directly above my bedroom. The issue is that I handled it badly in the first place- I’m embarrassed by that so don’t want to elaborate. This is a noticeable pattern in my life- an issue comes along and I tolerate it, thinking it’s my fault, because I didn’t deal with it sooner. And it gets worse etc. I’ll buzz her once today, if no answer- note. If no response, call who I need to call. If I’d just harassed her from the beginning she probs would have given it sooner.
If you go private, is it possible to shop around for awhile to find a suitable therapist? ESE sounds like a bad choice. Activator probably better. Identical could be worth trying, there are probably IEI therapists. You can talk on the same level, with natural understanding. Similar weaknesses can actually be a good thing. If a therapist is very different from the client then there's the risk that they talk over you, without knowing it, or just trying to cheer you up, because they don't really understand your position, and that won't work for long.
The decisive thing is not the reality of the object, but the reality of the subjective factor, i.e. the primordial images, which in their totality represent a psychic mirror-world. It is a mirror, however, with the peculiar capacity of representing the present contents of consciousness not in their known and customary form but in a certain sense sub specie aeternitatis, somewhat as a million-year old consciousness might see them.
(Jung on Si)
An Fe or Te Dom unhealthy can be over bearing. It's strong judgement function and if things don't line up you'll get bowled over. EJ wants the external balanced for their sake. It's like Sol around here holding everything down to the canon. Not saying this poster is unhealthy. But that's the MO out of the gate.
If you can handle abusive speech and theatrics you'll have no problem with an unhealthy Fe Dom.
Black & white is a shallow divide, division is the color that multiplies
Taking things at face value is good only for a spell
To experience is simple, to explain is divine
Hearts of stone are a dead giveaway: no movement
lol i chickened out and i called my landlords. But will try to catch her..
umm so this is my experience so far..
first therapist, maybe ESI, don't really remember much, she seemed inexperienced
then they made me see a therapist in a GP to be 'reviewed'- this was the woman who could have been ESE-si, she was almost LSE-like
later I had a long round of therapy with an EIE. Not good but we did our best lol.
Then I discovered socionics etc and had some group therapy with an IEE-fi and and SEI-fe. I still listen to the SEI-fe meditation tracks- she's good!
Recently I called the local free service and they 'screened' me. The lady was LSI- she was really good but there is a long wait list so she advised go private. She was really nice.
Then I got screened by an IEI- bit intense...
Now I think the new lady is ESE-fe, maybe. She seems ok though- I think because I only want a 'refresher' of CBT, she might actually be ok. But will def see how it goes.
Well why be stuck up about the past? Just go up to her and tell her to shut the fuck up in person, carry yourself with more confidence. You can choose to make yourself less serious or not, but the thing about confidence is that people often have a hard time if it's fake or not, that's why confidence goes a long way. It doesn't matter anything about socio bs right now, what matters is that problem, and what you need to do is be more straight forward and cut the crap.
Library because this site has become sort of an idiocracy
it's not crap lol. But yeah point taken.
I recommend you stare into the mirror and repeat the phrase, "I'm a bad bitch" for 3 minutes minimum before you confront her.
Library because this site has become sort of an idiocracy
lol I already did! I heard someone in the hall so I checked to see who it was. We had a long convo and she was alright..she’s gonna see if someone can check the floor- other than that we can get on to the land lords which is probs an even bigger task lol
i’m also glad she’s seen I’m not a crazy person- all of the time lol
Ha! Usually if a neighbor is a bitch to one person, they are a bitch to the rest for the most part. Guess she is just a bitchy person
Either way, glad I could help!
Remember that a lack of confidence shows, and a lot of people don't care about people who lack confidence because they see you as insignificant, crazy, or a potential schzio even.
Sheep ignore the weak and rarely doubt the confident! That's how we have a shit ton of crazy people being world leaders, that's because they are good at being confident and lose their cool less often. When you loose your cool, you fail to convey your message.
Library because this site has become sort of an idiocracy
@Virtuoso it was sort of an out of body experience- i saw how soft yet diplomatic I could be. I think as I am older, she did just expect me to talk to her about anything. But we had got off on a bad foot for other reasons, and it just got so awkward. And yes I have experience of working with crazy leaders. I was already gaining confidence- (self-possession, self-assuredness), but the crazy leader helped me to understand that you gotta be prepared for anything lol.
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