ESFj vs ENTj

[XoX]

Ok...how do you tell the difference between these two? Especially in women?

I made my wife check the smilex's charts and she ended up being absolutely result oriented, absolutely positive, somewhere in the middle of narrative and taciturn, somewhere in the middle of democracy and aristocrat. Anyways we thought she is probably narrator and even though she doesn't believe a "committee" can bring about optimal decisions perhaps she is a democrat anyways. That would make her ENTj or ESFj.

Now we went on to see the Ni vs Si and Te vs Fe stuff.

Ni: CAREFREE, RESOLUTE, VICTIMIZED & STRATEGIC
Si: CALCULATING, JUDICIOUSNESS, TACTICAL & CAREFUL
-> She is absolutely strategic, absolutely resolute, pretty carefree, but doesn't feel too victimized. This would suggest Ni over Si. She doesn't feel tactical AT ALL.

Te: COMPLIANCE, GRAVE & EMOTION-CREATING are maximal at Te.
Fe: OBSTINACY, CHEERFUL & CONSTRUCT-CREATING are maximal at Fe.
-> She feels sort of compliant, a bit grave rather than cheerful, and more emotion-creating than construct-creating (though last one was hard to understand). This would suggest Te over Fe.

And in almost all other smilex's rules for Ni and Si, Te and Fe she chose Ni and Te.

So are the smilex's charts wrong/faulty or is my wife an ENTj and how do I know? Anyways she doesn't feel like she has a bad understanding of aesthetics so we haven't really considered PoLR so far. But who knows.

[Expat]

I think you've misunderstood at least some of the dichotomies.

For instance, Democratic vs Aristocratic has nothing to do with committees - it has to do with an inclination to see people as individuals and judge them on their individual merits, or to see people as belonging to a group - any group, whether a family, or a clan, or a country, or as a supporter of another basketball team. In these PC times most people say they are Democratic if asked, but it's possible to see the Aristocracy if you observe people closely.

[XoX]

For instance, Democratic vs Aristocratic has nothing to do with committees - it has to do with an inclination to see people as individuals and judge them on their individual merits, or to see people as belonging to a group - any group, whether a family, or a clan, or a country, or as a supporter of another basketball team.

I showed her your post and she said she is 100% for individual merits and judging people as individuals. Is that democratic or aristocratic?

[Expat]

Democratic that is Alpha or Gamma.

[XoX]

Democratic that is Alpha or Gamma.

Ok cool. I still think ESFj or ENTj. Can you figure out a similar way to separate between narrator and taciturn? That was another point of not being quite sure. She certainly is positive and result oriented that is beyond questioning.

[FDG]

For instance, Democratic vs Aristocratic has nothing to do with committees - it has to do with an inclination to see people as individuals and judge them on their individual merits, or to see people as belonging to a group - any group, whether a family, or a clan, or a country, or as a supporter of another basketball team.

I showed her your post and she said she is 100% for individual merits and judging people as individuals. Is that democratic or aristocratic?

Nnononnono you can't do it this way.

[Expat]

Nnononnono you can't do it this way.

Yes, FDG's right.

Most people would give that answer if directly asked. What you have to do is judge it yourself - whether she tends to have opinions like "oh, he's Russian, so what could you expect" or "they're all messed up in that family" or even, "she's of the accounting department, and they're all so nice" - - this is the form of Aristocratic behavior that is so natural that most people don't even see it in themselves.

Besides, XoX, if you really want to decide between ENTj and ESFj for your wife, there are much better ways to do it than go for Reinin Dichotomies.

[Expat]

Ni: CAREFREE, RESOLUTE, VICTIMIZED & STRATEGIC
Si: CALCULATING, JUDICIOUSNESS, TACTICAL & CAREFUL
-> She is absolutely strategic, absolutely resolute, pretty carefree, but doesn't feel too victimized. This would suggest Ni over Si. She doesn't feel tactical AT ALL.

"Victimized" refers here to the Victim group of Gulenko's erotic attitudes -- nothing to do with feeling "victimized" in the everyday sense of the term.

"Careful" is actually best described as "Caregiver", also of those Gulenko groups. In fact, if we go for dichotomies, this is probably the best way to quickly differentiate ENTj from ESFj.

Te: COMPLIANCE, GRAVE & EMOTION-CREATING are maximal at Te.
Fe: OBSTINACY, CHEERFUL & CONSTRUCT-CREATING are maximal at Fe.
-> She feels sort of compliant, a bit grave rather than cheerful, and more emotion-creating than construct-creating (though last one was hard to understand). This would suggest Te over Fe.

No, "emotion-creating" and "construct-creating" actually mean the opposite of what those names would suggest. "Emotion-creating" is the ENTj trying to crack a joke or saying something nice before getting down to the business at hand. "Construct-creating" is the ESFj not separating the emotional mood from the business at matter. It's an avoidance of getting into "unnecessary" emotional moods because they are more susceptible to them.

"Grave" and "cheerful" actually mean "objective" and "subjective". It's actually related to > and > preferences, respectively. "Cheerful/subjective" people do not easily separate a situation, or evaluation of a situation, from the emotional mood of the moment.

"Compliant" and "obstinate" is about people putting very clear limits to what they see as their own interest, and those of other people. Obstinates have a clear line drawn in the sand, "this is as far as I will go" and Compliants are more flexible in that.

So are the smilex's charts wrong/faulty or is my wife an ENTj and how do I know? Anyways she doesn't feel like she has a bad understanding of aesthetics so we haven't really considered PoLR so far. But who knows.

Those charts systematize some - not all - of Reinin Dichotomies and the Gulenko Erotic groups. They are useful if you see all of them "moving in the same direction", consistently. They can be confusing if the trends are unclear. Besides, as is clear from the charts, some of these traits are at their peak when others become blurred.

Finally, between ESFj and ENTj it's really best to look at quadra values and functional preference.

[Slacker]

Nnononnono you can't do it this way.

Yes, FDG's right.

Most people would give that answer if directly asked. What you have to do is judge it yourself - whether she tends to have opinions like "oh, he's Russian, so what could you expect" or "they're all messed up in that family" or even, "she's of the accounting department, and they're all so nice" - - this is the form of Aristocratic behavior that is so natural that most people don't even see it in themselves.

Besides, XoX, if you really want to decide between ENTj and ESFj for your wife, there are much better ways to do it than go for Reinin Dichotomies.

I was going to say, "HEY WAIT! I'm Democratic!!" Until I saw this description. I do that.

[Expat]

I was going to say, "HEY WAIT! I'm Democratic!!" Until I saw this description. I do that.

Perhaps that would serve as a validator for the Aristocratic/Democratic distinction then.

Ok cool. I still think ESFj or ENTj. Can you figure out a similar way to separate between narrator and taciturn? That was another point of not being quite sure. She certainly is positive and result oriented that is beyond questioning.

1) Both ESFj and ENTj are Narrator, so it wouldn't help in this case
2) The distinction is only clear-cut for the split subtypes -- strong subtype preference could blur it

[XoX]

Most people would give that answer if directly asked. What you have to do is judge it yourself - whether she tends to have opinions like "oh, he's Russian, so what could you expect" or "they're all messed up in that family" or even, "she's of the accounting department, and they're all so nice" - - this is the form of Aristocratic behavior that is so natural that most people don't even see it in themselves.

Ok...she is still very democratic. But now I'm starting to suspect I'm not Anyways I'm way more aristocratic in this sense than she is. Although in the end I always judge people individually I do form stereotypes. It is like she doesn't form any stereotypes at all really. I do form stereotypes after enough data supports it but I give every person a chance to prove that they are different. So she is still democratic. But now I'm not sure if I'm actually aristocratic...I can't be INTp I guess if I'm too aristocratic?

[XoX]

Ok based on the updated descriptions it looks like this for her...

She thinks...
Erotic Victim vs Caregiver -> Victim

Compliant vs. Obstinate -> Compliant

Emotion Creating vs Construct Creating -> Perhaps construct creating in the end. She didn't see that "use emotion to light up the mood" in herself much in business situations. When she is doing business she is always deadly serious and aims to maximize effectiveness. No interest for making the mood lighter or waste time for things like that

Grave vs Cheerful -> could not decide anymore

Finally, between ESFj and ENTj it's really best to look at quadra values and functional preference.

Hmm..how could the quadra values be summed up best?

The problem with deciding functional preference is hard...I have never seen her as a typical ESFj. The ESFj thing was her idea because she somehow considers herself as a feeler / enthusiast and an extrovert (I initially thought she might be introvert). We thought she might have creative because she is seemingly good at decorating homes and choosing clothes and such. She also pays attention to how food is put on the plate (half the fun in eating is how it looks to her). She likes flowers and candles and all that kind of stuff. She is kind of artistic too if she wants to. However she doesn't have open emotionality. In my opinion her could be just a role. She is naturally strong with imho. And she always has these "visions" in work which she tries to push through which sounds like to me. And she is completely pissed off if other people refuse to cooperate with her and fulfill her visions because she trusts them so strongly. If one group of people refuse to believe her then she moves on to next and next and if it seems it is impossible to get it through she says *sigh* and creates a new vision and starts pushing that instead. Very dynamic and always has a clear strategic goal in mind.

But PoLR...hmm...I don't know about that And she likes to invite friends and family members to visit and cook to them and be very overly hospitable towards them. She always goes overboard with the food and everything and in those moments she is very ESFj imho. However that might just be a role. I think whenever she is hospitable she always goes overboard. But she seems to genuinely like being hospitable. Although she kind of sees it as an "achievement" sort of if she has managed to be great host for the guests. She is very competitive in everything she does and very bad at relaxing.

Actually we once were in the same college course (initially just for fun) and it ended up being a pretty bloody battle We were studying together and you could feel the competition in the air right from the start. In the end we both got the best possible grade and were the best on that course but BOY it was stressful because we both wanted to beat each other so badly Lol.

[FDG]

Sounds ENFj to me.

Ari vs Demo is like, the last dichotomy you should look for imho, especially if there's a possibility of NF-ism

[XoX]

Sounds ENFj to me.

ENFj
aristocracy
process
negativism

ENTj
democracy
result
positivism

Unless we have completely misunderstood these then hard to be ENFj. I don't see any aristocracy in her. She is all for results. And no way she is into negativism. I used to be her opposite in negativism/positivism thing but nowadays I'm more positive possibly because I've been with her

Perhaps Expat could give some advice on deciding between process vs result and negativism vs positivism too?

[FDG]

You really have no clue about the dichotomies, sorry.

Process/Result is the opposite of what is written. Process people always proceed till the end of the task before starting another one, Result do the opposite, they multitask and never end anything. Just take a glance at the article.

Negativism/Positivism: same. The higher the negativism, the more the optimism, generally speaking. Because if you always feel like shit in a given moment, you cannot help but to hope the best. Take ISTj: at the peak of positivism, one of the most pessimistic types. Of course, it's because they always feel good right now, so they're sure that they're gonna feel worse. Ever seen a pessimistic ESTp?? The duality works like this: the negativist pushes towards the future, the positivist tries to make him/her live more in the moment.

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=3398

[XoX]

You really have no clue about the dichotomies, sorry.

Lol. True. I have never really read about them. So I don't know how they are exactly defined.

Process/Result is the opposite of what is written. Process people always proceed till the end of the task before starting another one, Result do the opposite, they multitask and never end anything. Just take a glance at the article.

What article? I just hear people randomly refer to that stuff but I have never seen anything coherent written about it. But anyways I find it curious that everything seems to be named in a counter-intuitive way (well some might disagree on this). So basically everything is opposite of what it sounds in the first glance

Ok, according to this definition wifey is -> process
But I would be -> result

Negativism/Positivism: same. The higher the negativism, the more the optimism, generally speaking. Because if you always feel like shit in a given moment, you cannot help but to hope the best.

This doesn't sink. Because she pretty much always is happy and positive at the current moment AND she feels positive about the future. She generally never feels "like shit in a given moment" However perhaps she is dynamic in the sense that perhaps she would be "negativist" in this dichotomy as she likes to improve things even further. But this is a bit difficult as the definition seems somehow absurb for her. She is just positive and optimistic about this moment and about future and the word "negativist" just feels so badly describing her that she just can't agree to be one unless someone changes the word

In any case...I think I would be a negativist in this definition. I naturally feel a bit shitty but I force myself to be optimistic and work for a better future. Perhaps in our case we both are negativists or she is actually some kind of positivist in the end.

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=3398

Ah...looks like something I should read Thanks for the link.

[FDG]

I'm glancing through the different types and dunno, neg pos sounds difficult for me to understand. Like, INFps should be the most positivist? ESTps the most negativist of the bunch. Same for ISTp ENFp...duh. I wonder if Smilingeyes didn't get the charts wrong...

[Expat]

According to the original article:

Positivists: Alpha and Gamma extroverts, Beta and Delta introverts

So: ENTp, ESFj, ENTj, ESFp and ISTj, INFp, INFj, ISTp

Negativists: Alpha and Gamma introverts, Beta and Delta extroverts

So: INTj, ISFp, INTp, ISFj and ENFj, ESTp, ENFp, ESTj

It is difficult to find functional explanations for this -- for instance, why should be a positivist while and are negativists?

Yet we all know that INTps - the "Critics" - are the typical Negativists, and ISFps, when not too focused on keeping a good mood, are like this as well.

Reinin Dichotomies are the result of empirical observations, that is why they could be called the "purest" form of socionics.

But please note that these are not the same as "pessimism" or "optimism". Negativists focus on what hasn't been accomplished, so they could also be called "Perfectionists" while Positivists focus on what has been accomplished and want to move on, so they could also be called "Pragmatists" or whatever.

The only thing that's clear is that a Negavist is balanced by a Positivist Dual.

[XoX]

I think I have to read about this more. Sounds like something important. I'll get back to this later.

[XoX]

Just for the record test results from Hugo's latest test:

I tested myself: INTp, N subtype

Wife tested herself: ESTj, S subtype
Wife tested me: INTp, N subtype or INTj, no subtype (last question was too hard to decide)

[Expat]

What article? I just hear people randomly refer to that stuff but I have never seen anything coherent written about it. But anyways I find it curious that everything seems to be named in a counter-intuitive way (well some might disagree on this). So basically everything is opposite of what it sounds in the first glance

Ok, according to this definition wifey is -> process
But I would be -> result

FDG's definition was good.

And yes, what you described of her now makes ENFj likely. Despite the Democratic thingy.

Negativism/Positivism: same. The higher the negativism, the more the optimism, generally speaking. Because if you always feel like shit in a given moment, you cannot help but to hope the best.

This doesn't sink. Because she pretty much always is happy and positive at the current moment AND she feels positive about the future. She generally never feels "like shit in a given moment" However perhaps she is dynamic in the sense that perhaps she would be "negativist" in this dichotomy as she likes to improve things even further. But this is a bit difficult as the definition seems somehow absurb for her. She is just positive and optimistic about this moment and about future and the word "negativist" just feels so badly describing her that she just can't agree to be one unless someone changes the word

In any case...I think I would be a negativist in this definition. I naturally feel a bit shitty but I force myself to be optimistic and work for a better future. Perhaps in our case we both are negativists or she is actually some kind of positivist in the end.

See if "Perfectionist" is better than "Negativist".

To be "positive about the future" is common in EJs who are not in a life crisis.

[XoX]

She is sleeping already so I can't ask anymore today And I haven't yet studied the dichotomies either But I'm pretty convinced she is one of the Exxj types. However the ENFj thing sounds unlikely but who knows.

Perhaps the "vision" word I used was misleading. I'm not at all sure they are intuitive visions. She is not some kind of "vision generator". Each vision or idea is based on a thorough and painful study of all available information and discussing with all available people about current facts and future trends and thus the "vision" slowly forms. Once it is final and she is sure about how future of the industry will develop and what this means for the company she starts to promote her vision in all possible ways, all possible channels and to all possible people. But she usually has one vision or idea which took some or long time to develop and she focuses on making that vision a reality. So in my opinion she could as well be ESTj who has just accumulated enough data to create a "vision".

Let me go through one ENFj description and see what is says (from socionics.com)

"ENFjs usually hold their heads up straight, often giving the impression that they are looking above the heads of others. This can lead others to believe that ENFjs are arrogant people. ENFjs clothes are usually badly matched. There is often one particular detail that catches the eye and is completely out of place with the rest. They are well aware of this and therefore pay close attention to their wardrobe and are suspicious of any outside evaluation."

She does pay great attention to what she wears but I can't see a case for "clothes are usually badly matched" or "one particular detail is completely out of place". Perhaps I have to pay more attention to this. One interesting thing is that she is more interested about spending money to clothes that other people can see over those that they normally can't see. I have known people who have an opposite attitude.

I'm not sure about the attitude towards outside evaluation but she is usually very confident on her own ability to decide about her clothes and thus doesn't seek outside help. I'm not sure if she would mind someone giving her advice but I have rarely seen her asking any help. She is more likely to advice other people on these matters. I think she is basically open to advice in these issues but any advice must be pretty carefully given. I'm sure any blunt "advice" is not well taken.

ENFjs enjoy the company of people who give off plenty of positive emotions. They like and in fact need to laugh in order to discharge the emotional energy that accumulates within. Their own emotions are of a dramatic nature, which they try hard to control. Sometimes, however, ENFjs can unexpectedly explode attracting unwanted attention to themselves.

I'm not sure about this. I have managed to make her "emotionally explode" on some occations but it is quite rare. She usually feels pretty bad afterwards. So I guess she likes to "be in control of her emotions" in some way. She is not generally openly emotional but I have seen her in very emotional states so she has the capability to produce .

ENFjs always warn others about impending trouble. They often dramatise reality a little too much as they seem to see the world in shades of grey. When interacting, they are sometimes parasitic and intrusive with their opinions and comments. ENFjs often express their true opinions during conversation as they find it difficult to keep them to themselves. They will often talk to themselves even if there are many people around.

I don't remember her warning me much about "impending trouble" more likely the opposite. However she sometimes tells stories from work where she is trying to convince people that certain changes MUST be made or the company is headed for DOOM and is pissed off if people don't seem to get it. I don't know about the parasitic and intrusive opinions and comments either. I haven't noticed. Ok, she does often express her true opinions I guess. I don't know if it is type related or not. I have never seen her "talking to herself" like it is claimed here.

ENFjs posses the ability to be great orators as they know how to paint speeches in many colours and how to keep the attention of the listener. Besides containing dramatic emotions, their speeches often contain sharp sarcasm and powerful bitterness. ENFjs know well how to combine humour with tragedy. As a result their narratives are always breathtaking.

I haven't noticed much "dramatic emotions", "sarcasm", "powerful bitterness". Actually "bitter" is pretty much opposite of her. I have rarely if never seen her "bitter". A better word would be "enthusiast" as it says in ESFj descriptions. In my opinion her presentations and slides are a bit boring and contain too much stuff. I would like them "simpler". However the content in general is quite good in quality. Then again other people seem to like her presentations in business environment and she is good at selling her ideas through presentations and people often praise her presentations. Perhaps people generally have different taste than I do then I always try to advice how she should have approached some issue but other people seem to think her approach was perfectly ok. Oh and she spends a LOT of time doing the "aesthetics" of the presentation slides etc. Everything much match starting from colours and ending in...everything. She is pissed when people use colours in a "wrong way" and tries to teach everybody about the aesthetics of slide making. lol.

ENFjs are inclined to trust only official published information. However they like gossip and discussing the details of peoples private lives, especially famous people, movie stars etc. ENFjs like to fantasise, often developing the same subject over a period of time. They also have the ability to persuade others that their opinions are right. Their completed projects are global in comparison to what they were when they were began. They have also tendency to create problems where there are not any and moreover to convince others of it.

I could see her trusting only official information or information she hears from respectable people. She is very much into books and such "official" sources instead of reading web or such "unofficial" sources. However I have never seen her gossiping or discussing details of peoples private lives. She is not much into famous people or celebrities or things like that.

She is a good persuader in work environment. It was only last week when she happily bragged about how good a "lobbyer" she is after she converted several people behind her idea. In my case...again the effect of her lobbying is not that effective

I'm not sure if her projects grow that global. She likes to think big but so far I haven't seen any global breakthroughs. And I'm not sure if she has a tendency to create problems where there are not any. Perhaps she is a bit dramatic sometimes but nothing too serious.

ENFjs respect hierarchy and relate to people accordingly. If a person is in a lower position, their interaction can be cold and disrespectful. However, their behaviour towards someone in a higher position than themselves will be tactful and humble. They believe in the concept of leadership and leaders. ENFjs also have tendency to behave aristocratically. They can give the impression that they are from noble families. At the same time they are very polite and correct.

Well I can't say she is "humble" towards people in higher positions or "cold" towards people in lower positions. She is usually quite warm but firm with anyone. And she has side stepped her boss when he refused to listen to her ideas and talked directly to the boss's boss (pissing of the boss) so there she didn't show much respect to her boss. However I know she has a slightly disrespecful attitude towards new employees who have not proven themselves yet but try to act overly capable. In her mind you don't have a right to act big before you have proven it with actions. And she has a tendency to think that if you have climbed high in the corporate ladder then chances are you are very competent.

She does believe in concept of leadership and the idea that the most competent should lead and make the decisions and no committees or any kind of group decision making processes should be used as they only slow down things and hinder development. She often goes past the official decision making process and talks directly to people who can make the important decisions as she believes trusting the "system" would eventually kill her ideas or slow their realisation down too much.

She is polite and correct usually. And likes to point out how I'm quite the opposite Is she aristocratic looking? I don't know. Not to me but perhaps to someone else. Some drunk in a bus once said to her that she looks like a proud russian bitch or something which hurt her emotionally as she doesn't want to appear "proud", "russian" or "bitch" but perhaps she does then

ENFjs do not like to work if someone is there, observing them. They really do not like others to see how they manage their homes and day to day matters. Because of this they often send other people on missions with various instructions in order to get rid of them so they can work comfortably.

I haven't seen her having any problem working while people are watching. I would think I have a bigger problem with that. About home managing...our home is not typically kept in a very clean and orderly state so whenever a guest is coming she wants to make everything look perfect. So whenever other people see our home it is usually very clean and good looking but when no one is around things can get a bit out of hand mostly because I'm quite messy and she is not interested in cleaning up my mess all the time She is not messy herself but she can handle me being messy up to some point unless someone is coming to visit who MUST NOT see any used clothes or papers lying down on the tables or dusty floor or unclean cups or plates or...

ENFjs have no problems undertaking very difficult tasks and projects or working long unsociable hours. ENFjs strongly believe that human potential is unlimited. They often believe in a wide range of mystical phenomena, religion, the evil-eye and omens. They like to spend some time alone in order to contemplate life and the role of humans. "To be or not to be" is a question that ENFjs may ask themselves regularly.

She has no problems undertaking any tasks or project and she can almost starve herself to death while working. While younger she was crazy with work. She did not eat or sleep enough just kept doing work. I have forced her to cut that down a bit. She is not even slightly into any kind of mysticism except she is quite religious in Christian way. She doesn't go to church too often though but then again she has occasionally visited many kind of Christian churches (Evangelical Lutheran, Adventist, Pentecostal, ...) and even other kinds of smaller sects to see what kind of people there are and how they approach the subject. Still I consider her to be more a traditionalist in religious sense. But she despises "ritualistic religion" e.g. when parent teach their children to read some prelearnt table prayer before starting to eat. In her mind every religious activity must symbolize faith and not be prelearned ritual. She doesn't believe in evil-eye, omens, astrology, ghosts, or whatever. These things actually annoy her. She is not much into science fiction or star trek or that kind of typical N-stuff either.

When asked she is likely to see some intuitive type as her dual. I tried to describe ISFj or ISTj and ask about our friends but at least the first impression is that these S-people could not offer her anything relevant. And if she wanted that kind of people she would not have married me (lol!). Perhaps she just lacks deeper interaction with them but her impression is she wants more intuitive than sensory support. I don't know if that can be trusted though. I mean I myself am not sure which I want more Anyways I have noticed her being very impressed about some highly intuitive people who she hangs out with but very rarely about something physical someone did. I don't know what this means exactly. Is she fond of N-people because she is one or because they give her something she is missing?

[FDG]

Yeah I agree that this last paragraph doesn't sound ENFj any more. Neither ENTj though? What about ESTj uhm. P.S. Star Trek and Science Fiction aren't realated to N S, not so strictly.

[XoX]

Yeah I agree that this last paragraph doesn't sound ENFj any more. Neither ENTj though? What about ESTj uhm. P.S. Star Trek and Science Fiction aren't realated to N S, not so strictly.

Well I'm slowly starting to think she MIGHT be ENFj in the end...however things like the last paragraph don't fit in. And I made one other mistake claiming she don't mind working while other people are watching. She actually doesn't like working while being watched. She likes to do serious work alone. Often early in the morning or late in the evening when there are no disturbances. This could be only because of pragmatic reasons though (it is hard for most of us to concentrate if lots of people are around).

Anyways I tried to talk about this and perhaps she could see a "Vladimir Putin" kind of dynamic ISTj as a dual. Someone who has the capability and power to make her visions and ideas a reality. So at least in that sense she likes ISTjs. Anyways she is seemingly more into intuitive types but that is not necessarily a problem. For example Kimmie has made many statements about needing peer to peer interaction with intuitives. And I guess many sensors generally like to spend time with sensors as there is generally more "energy" involved and less abstract talk.

I wouldn't count ENFj out. It might be as probable or more probable than ESFj.

Are ENFjs good with technical devices and such? She seems to be very fast in learning to use all kinds of technical devices like computers, mobile phones, cameras etc. I associate this with strong . However she is not particularly interested in playing with these devices unless it is for some useful purpose.

I have to see the dichotomies...Exxj it is anyways. Any of them is now possible. Her future orientation seems to suggest or perhaps very strong hidden agenda. I don't know female ESTjs so I can't compare but she isn't exactly like the male ESTjs I know. In type tests she seems to consistently choose the option ahead of N options but perhaps she has a strong hidden agenda which does this? Argh

[Expat]

I think ESTj or ESFj is likeliest for her. Perhaps indeed sensory subtype as she got in the test, which would blur things including some dichotomies. It would put her at a peak of Caregiver, though, which makes it odd that she'd identify with Victim. Actually this is the sort of thing that perhaps you can judge better than her.

By the way, I got glimpses of Negativism in what you described.

As for science fiction, this is stereotypically an "N" interest but I know several Alpha SFs who love it. The only hint of a possible correlation I have ever seen is with PoLR. I have never met an ISTj or ISFj who liked science fiction; however, Five is ISTj and he seems to like science fiction, so not even that is significant.

[FDG]

Yeah I agree that this last paragraph doesn't sound ENFj any more. Neither ENTj though? What about ESTj uhm. P.S. Star Trek and Science Fiction aren't realated to N S, not so strictly.

Well I'm slowly starting to think she MIGHT be ENFj in the end...however things like the last paragraph don't fit in.

wtf noooo :,(

[XoX]

Yeah I agree that this last paragraph doesn't sound ENFj any more. Neither ENTj though? What about ESTj uhm. P.S. Star Trek and Science Fiction aren't realated to N S, not so strictly.

Well I'm slowly starting to think she MIGHT be ENFj in the end...however things like the last paragraph don't fit in.

wtf noooo :,(

Lols ok Don't cry

I go through the ESFj description from socionics.com to compare...

ESFjs usually have a straight, upright posture and the body itself is often firm and slim. In fact it is rare to find an ESFj with a full figure, especially a male. Their figure can also be somewhat elongated.

Not very reliable but yeah.

ESFjs have a wide range of facial expressions. When receiving logical information they react with a look of extreme concentration. ESFj's facial details are usually fine but proportional.

Well..I guess No conflict really here.

They like to tell stories emotionally and in details. Some preferred topics of conversations are movies, art and books.

Well yeah. These stories are very boring to me The level of details is so high I rarely can follow them to the end.

ESFjs also can show a wide range of emotions during conversation. They have very characteristic negative emotions, periodically showing indignation which can flare up without warning and which can die down just as quickly. Their negative behaviour often cannot be explained logically as they can create a drama from something that may seem unimportant.

Yeah the emotionalism is there but it is not as flashy, dramatic and in your face than most other probable ESFjs I have met.

During conversation ESFjs pay close attention to the ethics and good behaviour of others. They like to give ethical evaluations and analyses on who behaved well and who did not. They also watch that the norms of politeness are obeyed. ESFjs react negatively to people who do not obey ethical norms. This is why others can sometimes consider them to be confrontational and difficult to live with. Many people believe ESFjs could be very demanding and tactless.

True again. However I don't see her very tactless. A bit demanding yes. And very concerned about ethics of conversation. She is not as reactive as potrayed here but still I can see this.

ESFjs have got very characteristic movements. When walking they often look like they are in a hurry. In fact, ESFjs always seem to be in a hurry. They are always going somewhere or visiting someone. They often seem to be overloaded with work that is not so urgent. They do not like to be criticised on this point and can sometimes take offence.

Well yeah. She can't stop moving. While at home she is always arranging stuff or doing something productive or reading something or cooking. She generally doesn't spend much time home but instead goes somewhere to do something (with me, with friends or alone if no one is willing to join her).

ESFjs take very good care of their appearance. They always show good taste in clothes, making sure that everything is in harmony and that colours are perfectly matched.

This almost takes the level of obsession. (strong creative or compensating PoLR?).

When choosing clothes ESFjs always rely on their own taste. They will not purchase a fashionable item if it is not compatible with their own physique. They always wear the right clothes for the occasion.

100% yes.

When explaining something ESFjs often repeat specific details again and again and keep asking if they have been understood. By doing this they can easily offend as it can seem that they think their interlocutor is stupid. However, this is not the case. ESFjs repeat themselves because they are never sure if they have been clear and logical enough.

This doesn't sound like her really.

ESFjs like to talk about people they know. They easily make new friends, because of their sociability and friendly approach. From friends ESFjs demand unselfishness.

She is much more likely to talk about people she personally knows than about famous people or celebrities as was in ENFj description. She is quick to make new friends and I guess the unselfishness part is also there.

ESFjs do many things motivated by pure enthusiasm, but they always show practicality and a sharp-wit in business matters. They always try to buy the best quality goods. If these goods do not live up to their expectations they do not hesitate to complain. Items can be old but they must be of good quality. ESFjs have an excellent eye for composition and can create a warm atmosphere from nothing.

Again a very good match.

ESFjs are incredibly hospitable and are always trying to surprise their guests with something unusual. ESFjs work on the philosophy that guests should first be fed and then entertained. However they can sometimes be over the top with offers of food as they have difficulties judging when enough is enough.

Very good match.

ESFjs pay good attention to health matters and the general well being of themselves and their family. For example, after visiting a doctor they always want an accurate diagnosis in order to decide the method of cure for themselves.

True. Except she is not that concentrated on her own health. More likely to other people around her. She is a bit sacrifical even in health matters (as in first making sure everyone else is ok and only then thinking about herself).

When someone helps ESFjs with home matters they appreciate it very much. The fact that someone helps them is more important than the actual result.

Here she says: "OH YES!". I think that was making some sort of statement about me being a bit sluggish with this stuff...

Anyways of the socionics.com Exxj descriptions she always chooses ESFj. It doesn't even seem too hard. Perhaps she is ESFj with a subtype and strong role. Her "visionary" capabilities and future orientation are perhaps a result of hard work and drive to achieve not a result of natural intuitiveness. And yes...from sosionics.us "quadra spirit" descriptions she identifies most with Alpha. About erotic attitudes, I don't think she is aggressor as I have had a relations with an ESFp when younger and she is pretty different. I'm not sure about what she is but I doubt infantile too. Careful or victim it is. Although this is a subject I'm not willing to explore too much on a public forum

Right now she is being pretty ESFj I guess...she is reading articles from a "home making magazine" with one eye and watching a soap opera rerun with other eye. And now she is crying because there was such a touching scene in the soap opera (some lame funeral scene). Lol. Ok she is ESFj, subtype then? And perhaps we are conflictors?

[FDG]

HEY I WATCH SOAP OPERAS TOO THAT DOESN'T MEAN I'M GAY.

In any case...let her post? Seems like the best alternative since in every post there is exactly 50 percent evidence towards one type and 50 percent towards another I doubt you're conflictor since you said that she matches quite well the "list" you made.

[XoX]

HEY I WATCH SOAP OPERAS TOO THAT DOESN'T MEAN I'M GAY.

Lol

In any case...let her post?

I don't want her in the same forum where I am And I don't think she is that interested to spend time here. However I might force her to write a self description. Then I post that here. It might be better than my analysis of her.

Seems like the best alternative since in every post there is exactly 50 percent evidence towards one type and 50 percent towards another

Hmm...I thought I just provided more evidence towards ESFj o_O. Well now you make me uncertain again. Anyways she is Exxj. Perhaps the dichotomies will provide some help once I understand them

I doubt you're conflictor since you said that she matches quite well the "list" you made.

But how much socionics type related stuff was in the list? I mean we can get argumentative in many ways. There are situations where it is even likely that we end up arguing if we do those things together. These situations usually involve other people and the fact we approach social situations quite differently. Also her enthusiasm towards doing things and my lack of it is one source of conflict. While alone we are less likely to argue. Still somewhere under that "mask of potential type incompatibilities" is a very deep connection and sense of common future and direction and trust. So I don't know.

[Expat]

Xox,

I think that it's clear that she's either E(S)Fj or E(S)Tj. I think the solution is that you're INFj rather than INTp. I will answer those PMs you sent me.

[dreikin]

Have you tried the clubs on socioniko.net?

[Hugo]

HEY I WATCH SOAP OPERAS TOO

Which ones?

[XoX]

I think that it's clear that she's either E(S)Fj or E(S)Tj. I think the solution is that you're INFj rather than INTp. I will answer those PMs you sent me.

I'm gearing towards her being E(S)Tj. The S subtype would make it harder to differentiate between and . Sad that I don't know any other ESTj females so I can't compare I know she is different from her e.g. her aunt who is clearly ESFj with a huge .

In my case I would still opt for INTp over INFj. I have huge problems settling with INFj. I don't really have any problems settling with INTp except people here keep saying I lack . If I was strong intuitive subtype then my and should be weaker than expected and my PoLR would be less sensitive. However I see PoLR as the probable PoLR for me. You can of course make a case for PoLR too or at least uncontrolled but I would think is more likely the "painful" point than .

[Kristiina]

This thread is very evil because it made me reconsider many things about things. I have to let new information settle for a little while and I'll get back to you on possible discoveries (if there will be any).

[FDG]

HEY I WATCH SOAP OPERAS TOO

Which ones?

They're in italian

[Expat]

I just remembered/realized something.

Positivists - dominant function is long range (-)
Negativists - dominant function is short range (+)