Differences in Ni-HA for LSI-Se and LSI-Ti (ISTj)

[Mega]

Hi, I have seen LSI-Se and ESI-Se, I could "see" their Ni-HA, it was very clear to me that they were Se crea.


Now, my question, how does Ni-HA is shown in Ti sub LSIs?
In LSI-Se, they tunnel vision until they get what they want/wish and are aggressive until everything is settled. They won't stop, they will be only focused on "fixing" what they feel is disturbing their inner whole, they'll be very willful about it. Put an emphasis on the "aggressive" part, or the willful one, or the tunnel vision one.
I have no idea how it show in LSI-Ti, enlighten me.

[Amber]

sex lasts a bit longer and it starts with some more imaginative foreplay (I only fucked 1 LSI-Ti and 3 LSI-Ses, sorry for not having a broader sample to draw upon)

[Mega]

what the fuck girl

[The Foundation]

I am generally somewhat wary of sub-type systems at the moment, but I will attempt to provide a possible analysis.

LSI- as you've stated, will probably be more aggressive and forceful to achieve a goal laid out for them. They more embody the archetypal "henchmen" or enforcer, in that their use of Creative in service to is much more emphasized than the other sub-type (theoretically). Creative in the LSI already is used as a tool to ensure logical order and definition is reached in the external environment, but when there is stimulation to the Mobilizing , they become susceptible to adhering to causes or movements and acting as their executors (performers, assets) in the real world. Thus, LSI- would be much more about forcing the environment in front of them to adhere to their standard of logical order which is motivated by their desire to help bring about a grander scheme ( feeds feeds ).

LSI- would have much less emphasis on forcing the environment to conform to a degree of logical order (due to a less pronounced ), but would be much more concerned about how exactly order will be. LSI- would then seem more mental, from them trying to put everything in its proper place and ensuring everything in the outside world will meet the exact logical standard they have in their minds, whereas LSI- will be more pragmatic, realizing that sometimes the chaos of the external world can't be organized exactly how the mental model dictates. hidden agenda, then, plays a crucial role in providing the LSI with the motivation to build an elaborate mental schematic to force the world to adhere to. Whereas makes the LSI- more proactive in manipulating the environment to conform to , makes the LSI- more proactive in ensuring articulation of thought or hierarchy, in logical consistency and purity.

[Words]

I really want to post Delilah by Tom Jones

[Mega]

I am generally somewhat wary of sub-type systems at the moment, but I will attempt to provide a possible analysis.

LSI- as you've stated, will probably be more aggressive and forceful to achieve a goal laid out for them. They more embody the archetypal "henchmen" or enforcer, in that their use of Creative in service to is much more emphasized than the other sub-type (theoretically). Creative in the LSI already is used as a tool to ensure logical order and definition is reached in the external environment, but when there is stimulation to the Mobilizing , they become susceptible to adhering to causes or movements and acting as their executors (performers, assets) in the real world. Thus, LSI- would be much more about forcing the environment in front of them to adhere to their standard of logical order which is motivated by their desire to help bring about a grander scheme ( feeds feeds ).

LSI- would have much less emphasis on forcing the environment to conform to a degree of logical order (due to a less pronounced ), but would be much more concerned about how exactly order will be. LSI- would then seem more mental, from them trying to put everything in its proper place and ensuring everything in the outside world will meet the exact logical standard they have in their minds, whereas LSI- will be more pragmatic, realizing that sometimes the chaos of the external world can't be organized exactly how the mental model dictates. hidden agenda, then, plays a crucial role in providing the LSI with the motivation to build an elaborate mental schematic to force the world to adhere to. Whereas makes the LSI- more proactive in manipulating the environment to conform to , makes the LSI- more proactive in ensuring articulation of thought or hierarchy, in logical consistency and purity.

Cheers, make sense.

Words, I have listened to your song, don't post that, it's disgusting.

[Amber]

Words, I have listened to your song, don't post that, it's disgusting.

here's a more seriously sentimental one just for you








I'm sorry, I'm probably the only one who thinks he's ESE.

[Mega]

here's a more seriously sentimental one just for you








I'm sorry, I'm probably the only one who thinks he's ESE.

Fuck you

[Amber]

Fuck you

in your dreams

[Mega]

in your dreams

I'd like that

[bolong]

I am generally somewhat wary of sub-type systems at the moment, but I will attempt to provide a possible analysis.

LSI- as you've stated, will probably be more aggressive and forceful to achieve a goal laid out for them. They more embody the archetypal "henchmen" or enforcer, in that their use of Creative in service to is much more emphasized than the other sub-type (theoretically). Creative in the LSI already is used as a tool to ensure logical order and definition is reached in the external environment, but when there is stimulation to the Mobilizing , they become susceptible to adhering to causes or movements and acting as their executors (performers, assets) in the real world. Thus, LSI- would be much more about forcing the environment in front of them to adhere to their standard of logical order which is motivated by their desire to help bring about a grander scheme ( feeds feeds ).

LSI- would have much less emphasis on forcing the environment to conform to a degree of logical order (due to a less pronounced ), but would be much more concerned about how exactly order will be. LSI- would then seem more mental, from them trying to put everything in its proper place and ensuring everything in the outside world will meet the exact logical standard they have in their minds, whereas LSI- will be more pragmatic, realizing that sometimes the chaos of the external world can't be organized exactly how the mental model dictates. hidden agenda, then, plays a crucial role in providing the LSI with the motivation to build an elaborate mental schematic to force the world to adhere to. Whereas makes the LSI- more proactive in manipulating the environment to conform to , makes the LSI- more proactive in ensuring articulation of thought or hierarchy, in logical consistency and purity.

First of all, LSI as a "henchman" is completely wrong and missing the essence of this personality type. Second, how do you come up with all this stuff if you're not even sure you fully buy into subtypes. Like, no type behaves this way ("build an elaborate mental schematic to force the world to adhere to"), or maybe it's because I hate Te that I'm resisting this explanation, because things only make sense to me in comparison of other similar things. I.E. people behave like people, until you observe two different reactions to the same situation. Then you conclude that huh, this guy X holds his ground and reaches his goal, this guy Y kind of fucked everything up. There's my limited logic for you.

But to answer OP, I have no idea.

[Mega]

First of all, LSI as a "henchman" is completely wrong and missing the essence of this personality type. Second, how do you come up with all this stuff if you're not even sure you fully buy into subtypes. Like, no type behaves this way ("build an elaborate mental schematic to force the world to adhere to"), or maybe it's because I hate Te that I'm resisting this explanation, because things only make sense to me in comparison of other similar things. I.E. people behave like people, until you observe two different reactions to the same situation. Then you conclude that huh, this guy X holds his ground and reaches his goal, this guy Y kind of fucked everything up. There's my limited logic for you.

But to answer OP, I have no idea.

Don't you live with an LSI?

[bolong]

Don't you live with an LSI?

I do, Se-subtype.

[bolong]

My dads an LSI- Ti.

His Ne-PoLr is evident with new information. He either instantly believes it or instantly disbelieves it; he refuses to look at the source or research why an opinion is loose or founded. And when he's stressed it's like talking to a brick wall- he will just repeat himself in circles, so...best to just back away. He's fucking crazy when he's angry and overreacts and ends up looking like a giant asshole.

This thread is about Ni-HA, not Ne-polr.

[Amber]

Ok serious answer: in my experience LSI-Ti is a bit more more intellectual and abstract. They like working with theories, they are extremely rigorous and can assess progression of events when in a position of responsibility ..it looks like Ni is a bit *more consciously* valued. Several things in conversations center on "Ni topics": what could happen, what past experiences could teach people, what people should do to prevent this or that, patterns one could see etc. They also have more internal awareness (possibly due to a Ti-Ni loop...?). However I suppose they are still not as confident about these things as a Ni type would be -- but the focus on something beyond the stuff or tasks at hand is definitely visible in my opinion.

The LSI-Ses I know are mainly about stubborn ingrained beliefs supported aggressively without much consideration of future events or some "meta-perspective". They looked pretty muched satisfied with living in the present moment and imo a bit more selfishly holding on to their hitherto convictions ...

Ni HA in LSI-Ti can also manifest itself as a subtle attraction to metaphysical or less easily explainable things ...a love for enigmas or puzzles that could be pierced through via Ti.

Dunno, ime LSI-Se just seemed to be more about getting their way out of most situations. So maybe this has to do with Ni HA, not only with more value placed on Se.

[Mega]

Ni HA in LSI-Ti can also manifest itself as a subtle attraction to metaphysical or less easily explainable things ...a love for enigmas or puzzles that could be pierced through via Ti.

Hum.. Not really, ESI-Se is more attracted to these kind of things than LSI-Ti. LSI-Se is aswell attracted. I think it's just Ni-HA, they all love that kind of stuff.
But yes, as you all said in the thread, different subtypes express it in different behaviours.

[golden]

Hum.. Not really, ESI-Se is more attracted to these kind of things than LSI-Ti. LSI-Se is aswell attracted. I think it's just Ni-HA, they all love that kind of stuff.
But yes, as you all said in the thread, different subtypes express it in different behaviours.

Mega, there really isn't much difference in Ni-HA along the subtype lines ime. Your thread was a waste, man.

[Mega]

Oh yeah, right, w/e, I'm tired, fuck this. I made my point, subtypes are different (lolol)

[Amber]

Now that I read The Fountain's post more attentively ... there are things I can agree with. But as I said, I only know one LSI-Ti and several LSI-Ses, so from where I stand what he says looks like some highly theoretical extrapolation. I don't know other LSI-Tis on the forum, either ...

[blackburry]

This thread is about Ni-HA, not Ne-polr.

Yeah....saw that way after I posted :/ Twas a dumbass moment.. Felt too lazy at the time to delete.

[Park]

Is being heavily drawn to people capable of predicting possible future developments and their likelihood with great accuracy a sign of Ni-HA? If it is, you can call me LSI-Ti.

[The Foundation]

Now that I read The Fountain's post more attentively ... there are things I can agree with. But as I said, I only know one LSI-Ti and several LSI-Ses, so from where I stand what he says looks like some highly theoretical extrapolation. I don't know other LSI-Tis on the forum, either ...

and @maithili

It is a highly theoretical extrapolation. I'm not too trusting of a subtype system currently, considering there is enough ambiguity in Socionics as it is without a subtype system to play into effect for typing. I was merely providing a viewpoint from what I know of the subtype system to better serve the purpose of this thread, predicting how it would theoretically play out according to theory. Of course, an empirical approach would be one of more value, but I only have access to one LSI in real life to observe, and I am not confident in attempting to discern his sub-type due to my skepticism of the sub-type system.

"build an elaborate mental schematic to force the world to adhere to"

This refers to the internal standard LSI's are predicted to have for the world around them. is an organizational and categorical element, and thus it takes in physical perceptions from the world around the sociotype through Creative Se and constructs a model to organize and make sense of the data in front of them. Now, if the LSI is fed information from their Mobilizing element (), it would stand to reason that, in their zest of being apart of a bigger picture, they would attempt to systematize and organize the information into a working model, as all functions serve the Lead element's agenda, which is then applied to the physical world around them with Creative , essentially making the vision given to them "happen" by forcing the environment to organize itself in the fashion that tells them it should be.

[Iris]

LSI- would have much less emphasis on forcing the environment to conform to a degree of logical order (due to a less pronounced ), but would be much more concerned about how exactly order will be. LSI- would then seem more mental, from them trying to put everything in its proper place and ensuring everything in the outside world will meet the exact logical standard they have in their minds, whereas LSI- will be more pragmatic, realizing that sometimes the chaos of the external world can't be organized exactly how the mental model dictates. hidden agenda, then, plays a crucial role in providing the LSI with the motivation to build an elaborate mental schematic to force the world to adhere to. Whereas makes the LSI- more proactive in manipulating the environment to conform to , makes the LSI- more proactive in ensuring articulation of thought or hierarchy, in logical consistency and purity.

This refers to the internal standard LSI's are predicted to have for the world around them. is an organizational and categorical element, and thus it takes in physical perceptions from the world around the sociotype through Creative Se and constructs a model to organize and make sense of the data in front of them. Now, if the LSI is fed information from their Mobilizing element (), it would stand to reason that, in their zest of being apart of a bigger picture, they would attempt to systematize and organize the information into a working model, as all functions serve the Lead element's agenda, which is then applied to the physical world around them with Creative , essentially making the vision given to them "happen" by forcing the environment to organize itself in the fashion that tells them it should be..

Both of these quotes accurately describe the one LSI-Ti that I know. Very well articulated.

I have not identified any Se bases at this point, so can't comment on them.

[bolong]

Ni HA in LSI-Ti can also manifest itself as a subtle attraction to metaphysical or less easily explainable things ...a love for enigmas or puzzles that could be pierced through via Ti.

Yeah, this is with all LSIs, and if you ask me it's not subtle. Religion is usually their favorite topic of discussion, and they are totally down to try weird stuff like ouija boards, although they are very receptive to more sophisticated explanations of religious beliefs.

[golden]

Yeah, this is with all LSIs, and if you ask me it's not subtle. Religion is usually their favorite topic of discussion, and they are totally down to try weird stuff like ouija boards, although they are very receptive to more sophisticated explanations of religious beliefs.

Haven't seen a ouija-loving LSI but yeah I said in chat the other day Ni can be quite pronounced. Husband sez his relationship to spiritual stuff feels incomplete to him and unmastered. But he's far more obvs concerned with his spiritual searching and thorough in his study of it.

Other LSIs I know, lotta similarities to this.

[Amber]

Yeah, this is with all LSIs, and if you ask me it's not subtle. Religion is usually their favorite topic of discussion, and they are totally down to try weird stuff like ouija boards, although they are very receptive to more sophisticated explanations of religious beliefs.

The LSI-Ses I know are total atheists, but they liked hearing others rant about surreal things (e.g. Tarot readings done by ex gfs etc.). This doesn't mean they didn't criticize them...

[Myst]

Hi, I have seen LSI-Se and ESI-Se, I could "see" their Ni-HA, it was very clear to me that they were Se crea.

Now, my question, how does Ni-HA is shown in Ti sub LSIs?
In LSI-Se, they tunnel vision until they get what they want/wish and are aggressive until everything is settled. They won't stop, they will be only focused on "fixing" what they feel is disturbing their inner whole, they'll be very willful about it. Put an emphasis on the "aggressive" part, or the willful one, or the tunnel vision one.
I have no idea how it show in LSI-Ti, enlighten me.

Can you explain this part about how you see they are focused on fixing the "inner whole" specifically? I relate to all of that description there otherwise but this may be where I differ from Se-LSIs, the nature of the goal?

[Mega]

@Myst, I can't really go into details because my experience with it has been empirical. I could try to make analogies to the theory but I think it'd be biased overall.


To make it short. I have seen Ni described as an inner whole by Golihov (read Ni crea, he talks about the need to correct the inner wholeness of things, it's pretty mind fucking): http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Dmitry-Golihov


What he says about Ni-HA: "the area of self-esteem of these types is the "wholeness" of the internal situation, internal harmony, ideological consistency and consistency of principles, internal tranquility."
Ok, this was how I think it fits into the socionics theory according to the russian peeps.

How I saw it by my own little eyes (which was well explained by the second post in this thread, imo): something is not in accordance with what they think, with what their beliefs are. There are many ways this can happen. For exemple, I have seen the same behaviour (annoying complaning, innability to understand that it's not big deal if it doesn't go as planned) with LSI-Se and ESI-Se.
I have an ESI-Se bro (let's say Se crea, Se subtype), his Ni-HA makes me cringe so fucking hard (and an LSI-Se peeps I know). I'm not gonna lie, if it doesn't go as it was planned, shit storm incoming. If it's not "logically" related to them, in case LSI-Se (then again it's complete analogies to the theory from what I've seen IRL, so it could very well be wrong. True it happened IRL, socionics wise it could as well be something different), lol mate, you are in for death. Every little things is because of you, there is no reasoning them, you are the worst shit on earth, go die somewhere plz.
If it's related to them (their fault the problem has arisen), then they feel the world has ended and there is no fixing it, they might as well die (e9, esi-se fyi). LSI-Se, from what I have seen, says something along the line "oh well, fuck", get sad a little bit, and whine a little more. They then take ages to understand they can fix the problem (both esi and lsi, se sub) and it could have been fixed very easily. No idea how vengeful an ESI-Se is when it's your fault. From what I've heard he gets mad, dunno if it's more manageable than LSI-Se, I never seen an ESI-Se gets mad in action.

To the theory, from what I have written above, I could say if it doesn't go as it was planned (logically for LSI, "ethically" to ESI??? <= Fi is not ethics, I know, fuck off) then their inner wholness is broken. Then, since it's their Ni-HA, it must be fixed fucking fast or u dead. So they use their Ego functions (as explained in 2nd post), since they are Se-sub, you get shit storm as written above.
If I were to answer your question Myst, inner wholeness is how Golihov described Ni. IME it explains well the drive of Ni-HA types to fix their inner wholeness, to let nothing disturb it.

[Myst]

Ok serious answer: in my experience LSI-Ti is a bit more more intellectual and abstract. They like working with theories, they are extremely rigorous and can assess progression of events when in a position of responsibility ..it looks like Ni is a bit *more consciously* valued. Several things in conversations center on "Ni topics": what could happen, what past experiences could teach people, what people should do to prevent this or that, patterns one could see etc. They also have more internal awareness (possibly due to a Ti-Ni loop...?). However I suppose they are still not as confident about these things as a Ni type would be -- but the focus on something beyond the stuff or tasks at hand is definitely visible in my opinion.

The LSI-Ses I know are mainly about stubborn ingrained beliefs supported aggressively without much consideration of future events or some "meta-perspective". They looked pretty muched satisfied with living in the present moment and imo a bit more selfishly holding on to their hitherto convictions ...

Ni HA in LSI-Ti can also manifest itself as a subtle attraction to metaphysical or less easily explainable things ...a love for enigmas or puzzles that could be pierced through via Ti.

Dunno, ime LSI-Se just seemed to be more about getting their way out of most situations. So maybe this has to do with Ni HA, not only with more value placed on Se.

OK revisiting this thread a bit...
I relate to both of these but I used to be not intellectual/abstract until the end of my teenage years. I was much much more like the Se subtype described here until then. Tho' I do still relate to the part about living in the present moment a lot and holding onto my views. But those views include a lot of stuff I got from "Ti-Ni loop" before. I don't want to spend too much time on wondering about Ni "enigmas" though as it's somewhat draining, I'm still much more about getting my way/things in real life situations, that's when I feel at my best. So still Se subtype just with a bit of focus on Ni that's part learned part feels almost like inborn genetics (as I had a bit of it even as a little kid).

[Myst]

Is being heavily drawn to people capable of predicting possible future developments and their likelihood with great accuracy a sign of Ni-HA? If it is, you can call me LSI-Ti.

Can also be Ne DS depending on how this is done

[Muddy]

The difference between Ni-HA and Ne DS in my observation is that Ni-Ha tries to look out for calamities is and more about "being prepared" for disasters, Ne DS is more about seeking out pleasures and fun things to do.

[Myst]

The difference between Ni-HA and Ne DS in my observation is that Ni-Ha tries to look out for calamities is and more about "being prepared" for disasters, Ne DS is more about seeking out pleasures and fun things to do.

My point was about how those possible outcomes being considered are treated and for what purpose. That's where Ni and Ne valuing differ. And your examples are good for that

[Park]

My point was about how those possible outcomes being considered are treated and for what purpose. That's where Ni and Ne valuing differ. And your examples are good for that

Can you give an(other) example to illustrate your point? Preferably something concrete, or just a more detailed explanation.

[Myst]

Can you give an(other) example to illustrate your point? Preferably something concrete, or just a more detailed explanation.

Well your original stuff I responded to, it could be viewed as you wanting to entertain ideas on situations, Ne valuing. Ni instead would want to know how things will actually play out, for which seeing probabilities is just a useful tool.

[Park]

Well your original stuff I responded to, it could be viewed as you wanting to entertain ideas on situations, Ne valuing. Ni instead would want to know how things will actually play out, for which seeing probabilities is just a useful tool.

Still too vague for me to discern the difference, but thanks for responding. In my original post I was thinking about people who can provide sensible decision-making advice and assist me with things that are sequential in nature, i.e. help me choose a path when I'm presented with options and lack the foresight, as well as the ability to relate concepts and events to each other, in order to decide which way to go. Often times I don't care about how things are going to play out, in the sense that I don't have the need to concentrate on one single possibility, but I want to stray away from making decisions that lead me to places I don't wanna be. And I want my thoughts regarding the future to be more accurate and focused than they tend to be when I'm left solely to my own devices.

I do like entertaining ideas on situations, both serious/down-to-earth and crazy/far-out ones, trying to break the wall between them.

[Myst]

Still too vague for me to discern the difference, but thanks for responding. In my original post I was thinking about people who can provide sensible decision-making advice and assist me with things that are sequential in nature, i.e. help me choose a path when I'm presented with options and lack the foresight, as well as the ability to relate concepts and events to each other, in order to decide which way to go. Often times I don't care about how things are going to play out, in the sense that I don't have the need to concentrate on one single possibility, but I want to stray away from making decisions that lead me to places I don't wanna be. And I want my thoughts regarding the future to be more accurate and focused than they tend to be when I'm left solely to my own devices.

I do like entertaining ideas on situations, both serious/down-to-earth and crazy/far-out ones, trying to break the wall between them.

That sounds Ne DS just fine to me. As a contrast, I don't need help with sequential things and I do prefer to pick and focus on one option/way to go. I'm very well able to choose between the options or just ignore irrelevant ones / not even see them, lol. Not really interested in the crazy/far-out ideas on situations either.

[Park]

At the end of the day, I only care about ideas that have grounded/realistic potential and I can work towards realizing (making come true). And in times of crisis, I really appreciate someone's ability to draw out all potential scenarios, i.e., ways in which things could develop and their likelihood. Like, there's this type of people who will use the history of events that had led me to a certain place, and considering what they know about me and my situation, can quite accurately tell what's likely and what's unlikely to happen. And they can also say, like, "if you do X right now, chances are A is going to happen." Or "if you want to avoid B from taking place, you should do Y and Z," etc. And when someone is being continually accurate in these predictions and estimations, I develop trust towards them.

[Myst]

At the end of the day, I only care about ideas that have grounded/realistic potential and I can work towards realizing (making come true). And in times of crisis, I really appreciate someone's ability to draw out all potential scenarios, i.e., ways in which things could develop and their likelihood. Like, there's this type of people who will use the history of events that had led me to a certain place, and considering what they know about me and my situation, can quite accurately tell what's likely and what's unlikely to happen. And they can also say, like, "if you do X right now, chances are A is going to happen." Or "if you want to avoid B from taking place, you should do Y and Z," etc. And when someone is being continually accurate in these predictions and estimations, I develop trust towards them.

So the "crazy/far-out ideas" are just for entertainment eh? This here is another good description of how Ne DS works. I'm not interested in hearing all this because I already picked X (over Y, Z, etc) so I only care about things relevant to that. If I was to listen to someone telling me all that, I'd just feel I'd have to make myself less focused to jump around like that in my mind. But I'd listen to the relevant parts if I considered them relevant. Or if I got convinced first that I need to pay attention though I'm hard to convince by most people

[silke]

It's like a paragraph from the SLE-IEE superego relations. SLE: "I've already got a path, I don't need anyone telling me about the alternatives." IEE: "But this could be. That could be. It could be so, we can do it!". SLE can't really put this information to use. IEEs wonders why their SLE s.o. is so unresponsive and mute to all their Ne suggestions. IEE tries to make her/himself heard. Even schedules a visit to the relationship counselors. This doesn't much fix their communication issues.

[Park]

So the "crazy/far-out ideas" are just for entertainment eh?

Both for entertainment and a quest for attainable objectives. I like pursuing unusual ideas and setting odd goals (or odd ways of achieving goals) that would not be thought of, or chosen, by most other people. I like taking crazy ideas and turning them into achievable goals with tangible results. This can make me come across as weird, unrealistic, and/or over-ambitious, but I take great deal of satisfaction when something I set out to do turns out successful.

I'm not interested in hearing all this because I already picked X (over Y, Z, etc) so I only care about things relevant to that. If I was to listen to someone telling me all that, I'd just feel I'd have to make myself less focused to jump around like that in my mind. But I'd listen to the relevant parts if I considered them relevant. Or if I got convinced first that I need to pay attention though I'm hard to convince by most people

I filter out information by relevance, as well, and turn a deaf ear to things that are "expanding my horizon" when I've already made a decision I feel certain about, or when I need to deduce carefully considered possibilities into a single choice.