Mum ENFp Mother in law ESFp

[Ver]

My main concern was HOW to say that politely because I really don't want to hurt her - I know she loves my kid and she is excited etc. My biggest problem is that I am either very submissive or I can say a word or two too much. That's why I'm constantly stressing that she is a good person. I think Se valuing types don't have this kind of problem because they are in such a situation all the time. I've heard my father in law saying - of course in a funny and joking way - that he has to be watching her all the time because she's just waiting for the right moment and using his weakness for her advantage. As a Si/Ne valuing type it's something that I'm not used to and I find it even cruel. But he really loves her for that. My whole family is alpha - everyone is constantly checking if you are all right, paying attention to your mood, they will never force you to do sth against your will waiting for your response.
I posted here, on socionics forum, because I thought this situation might be interesting also from this point of view - her being Se and me being Ne type.
Of course I am a grown up person and I will stand up for my rights. She is the grandmother and I've been doing everything to make her feel happy with the child but I see that she won't have the boundaries without me setting them. I'm pretty sure she also doesn't understand some things that are natural for me.
Thank you for all your replies it's been really helpful - I've never thought I'll get such a response.

[Ver]

Thanks for educating us on animal behaviour and mother's holy love William

I fail to see a problem with the mother in law's behaviour. She sounds loving, caring and like she enjoys helping you with your kid. There are worse things I can think off. And hating her for this? Wow. You can always raise a voice when you don't like your kid taken away from you - like a grown-up.

I fully agree there are worse things and actually I'm the person who really appreciates her in-laws compared to my friends. Except for this one thing which is kind of big to me now I've never had any issues with them. I said hate - but we all sometimes use that word, don't we? It's just an emotion - I would have acted in a totally different way if I really hated her.

IMO that's the Ne/Se problem... e.g. I truly appreciate my ISFp grandmother for being like a sweet angel. She NEVER pushed anyone to visit her, she NEVER used any words like: I'm so poor please, please visit us, I would really like...(that's what my MIL does) but still we all naturally gathered around her. Without any kind of pushiness. Also, she somehow feels when she's needed and she'll be always there for you. She doesn't think: I want this, I want that. She thinks what her children and grandchildren want and she tries to give it to us.
But that's her - to me she's just perfect .

[Misty]

Try the criticism sandwich approach... Say something positive first, then the criticism (or in this case, your request) and then finish up with something nice. Give it a try... You might be projecting your own sensitivities on her, and she could surprise you with how she takes it. Your request isn't unreasonable.. She may think you're a bit odd or overprotective or whatever, but it's good for her to know where you stand on the subject too.

[Ver]

Also, I feel I'm protecting her more now that I'm protecting myself in this thread and thank you ALL who did stand up for me. I want to add that she is REALLY possesive of the baby - not all the time of course and she REALLY took her from my hands without any smile, I got kind of small and scared and unable to act. She then kept ignoring me and talking with her husband : grandfather you calm the baby down! etc.
I fully understand that she wants the baby, that she loves her etc. But... I can not understand her all the time without her trying to understand me. She's a very strong willed person and if she wants something she'll get it no matter what the costs are. She doesn't care about anything when she wants the baby. She wants her she gets her.
She also seems to be jealous of my mother... she's constantly asking me if the baby's afraid of her or not, how much time she spends with her etc. When she asks me e.g. when did you get that toy and I say: My mother gave it to her she would be like: I would have bought it if I saw that too.

Also, I feel kind of guilt of letting that happen - like I'm a bad mother. I remember the situation when the gradfather, after 10 beers was just carrying the baby around, without me being able to do anything. It was then when I acted really stupid not acting at all just watching that and feeling like crying and I want to make up myself and her for that.

[SyrupDeGem]

Ver, you just need to establish some boundaries. Decide what you want them to be, have a good think of it through, sleep on it, have another good think, talk to your husband so you are both on the same page and then talk to her maybe with your husband present so you can be really clear about things. Think up some ideas that she will appreciate too, so she feels included, sometimes see 'take' things they want because they are not being shared. It does sound like you are not very trustworthy of her and maybe she senses this. Try to understand that her grandchild is also a part pf her though not related to you.


EditL I realised after writing this post that my children's paternal grandmother is also most likely SEE while I and my mother are both IEE, so theres some similarities there. I didn't have such issues with her 'taking' the children but there were many things i did feel uncomfortable with around territorial stuff.

[Beautiful sky]

Also, I feel I'm protecting her more now that I'm protecting myself in this thread and thank you ALL who did stand up for me. I want to add that she is REALLY possesive of the baby - not all the time of course and she REALLY took her from my hands without any smile, I got kind of small and scared and unable to act. She then kept ignoring me and talking with her husband : grandfather you calm the baby down! etc.
I fully understand that she wants the baby, that she loves her etc. But... I can not understand her all the time without her trying to understand me. She's a very strong willed person and if she wants something she'll get it no matter what the costs are. She doesn't care about anything when she wants the baby. She wants her she gets her.
She also seems to be jealous of my mother... she's constantly asking me if the baby's afraid of her or not, how much time she spends with her etc. When she asks me e.g. when did you get that toy and I say: My mother gave it to her she would be like: I would have bought it if I saw that too.

Also, I feel kind of guilt of letting that happen - like I'm a bad mother. I remember the situation when the gradfather, after 10 beers was just carrying the baby around, without me being able to do anything. It was then when I acted really stupid not acting at all just watching that and feeling like crying and I want to make up myself and her for that.

Aww

Ver, you just need to establish some boundaries. Decide what you want them to be, have a good think of it through, sleep on it, have another good think, talk to your husband so you are both on the same page and then talk to her maybe with your husband present so you can be really clear about things. Think up some ideas that she will appreciate too, so she feels included, sometimes see 'take' things they want because they are not being shared. It does sound like you are not very trustworthy of her and maybe she senses this. Try to understand that her grandchild is also a part pf her though not related to you.


EditL I realised after writing this post that my children's paternal grandmother is also most likely SEE while I and my mother are both IEE, so theres some similarities there. I didn't have such issues with her 'taking' the children but there were many things i did feel uncomfortable with around territorial stuff.

I have a feeling that she's afraid to act out of uncertainty.

[Ver]

a.) She's getting pissed about the grandmother HOLDING THE CHILD WHILE SHE'S OTHERWISE OCCUPIED IN THE SHOWER, OR CLEANING HER HOUSE. There is no excuse for that. It's controlling, neurotic, and unhealthy.

That's just not true and I am really getting over this now because I'm so tired of explaining... You are talking about situations that didn't happen.

b.) How should the grandmother know that Ver is neurotic about having her baby held? Having relatives take your kid and pay attention to it is completely common place. I myself have taken infant and toddler cousins from their parents without asking and have yet to see any of them get upset, because they're not fucking insane. It's generally a non verbal exchange that involves me walking up to said relatives and putting my arms out to for the baby and them handing it over. AND GUESS WHAT? SOMETIMES THEY SAY "NOT RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE BLAH BLAH BLAH" LIKE FUCKING ADULTS. And then I hold the baby later because I'm also an adult and that's how adult human beings function.

Also not true at all.... I was only talking about her being so pushy so wanting the baby that she uses her strong will without any smile or asking to take the baby from my hands. And if the baby is crying and I want to take her from her hands she's offended "Yeah, sth bad is happening to her" - she'll say cynically. She thinks the baby should cry because it's a baby.
I'm guessing you'll prove your point whatever I say so my explanation doesn't make much sense but I don't feel ok with your acusations so I'll try.

c.) I'm making the "divorce assumption" because she's the one who said this: "split up sometimes comes to my mind, this relationship changed so much since I got pregnant... but I hope it'll be better."

Doesn't split up come to people's mind sometimes? We are just human beings. We can be tired. We can think of different solutions. I've never said I wanted to split up because of THAT and I actually never seriously considered it.

"comes to my mind"

d.) You're a pansy ass bitch. That's basically all I have to say to your BUT UR NOT A MOMMY SPIEL. You're a fucking weirdo with a pregnant woman fetish and you're overly emotionally involved in this conversation.

I don't even know how to react to that... Why are you calling people like that? Of course everybody can have their own opinion but you are invading other people's private space saying such rude things - sorry for saying that. There are many different people on this planet there's no need to be in a state of war.
May I ask you what your type is Scapegrace? I'm sorry to say that but maybe you are overreacting some problems of yours saying such things here. I'm really grateful for William for standing up for me, saying things which made me at least laugh a little (the monkey part )

e.) I'm suggesting she see a counselor because postpartum mood disorders affect 50% of women. It's nothing to be ashamed of, and if you're having such a huge emotional crisis about someone holding your baby without asking you need to be concerned that you might be experiencing PPMD.

I'm not sure about percentage but except for being really tired, which is normal, I'm not depressed. I know what I'm talking about because I had periods of depressive issues.
You don't have to but please try to understand what I'm talking about before calling me this way. I respect you and your right to have your own opinion - that's all right. I don't know why you called my pussy, William weirdo, suggested I was psychotic. Please don't invade people's space in that way - maybe you wanted to help in that way, make me understand and change but I highly doubt it.

[Beautiful sky]

Thanks for educating us on animal behaviour and mother's holy love William

I fail to see a problem with the mother in law's behaviour. She sounds loving, caring and like she enjoys helping you with your kid. There are worse things I can think off. And hating her for this? Wow. You can always raise a voice when you don't like your kid taken away from you - like a grown-up.

LOL Beta NF about addressing people like grown ups.

[Beautiful sky]

Also not true at all.... I was only talking about her being so pushy so wanting the baby that she uses her strong will without any smile or asking to take the baby from my hands. And if the baby is crying and I want to take her from her hands she's offended "Yeah, sth bad is happening to her" - she'll say cynically. She thinks the baby should cry because it's a baby.
I'm guessing you'll prove your point whatever I say so my explanation doesn't make much sense but I don't feel ok with your acusations so I'll try.

Asking and not just assuming territory where it's not the person's place is a good way to be. I support you on that. That shows a lot of things, respect and it shows that you have the right and authority over your child and besides it's gosh darn courteous.

[Ver]

William.
How come you are so understanding for a young mother. It must be Fe...

For example, check out this video where other chimps try to take the babies away from the mother unasked for, and how much effort the mother puts into fleeing, even getting hit herself, in order to try to protect her babies:

This part is so great I can't even say. Realeasing the tension is highly appreciated! Also, I do agree with you. I thought about it before as I am definitely an animal loving person. When I was a teenager I had a female cat. She was treated like a member of a family and she behaved like that. But when she had kittens and we wanted to take them, she would just change their place later. This behaviour was even described in some guide so I guess this kind of feeling is something that is left from our primitive instincts. I personally believe having instict or intuition however you call it is a good thing and something we, as a civilization forgot about. E.g. food - we need to learn about the vitamins and other elements to know what's good for us and what's not. Animals use their intuition to eat what their organisms miss.
I hope I don't sound crazy I could write more about it but probably that's not the right place.
Anyway,

I have a feeling that she's afraid to act out of uncertainty.

Martisa you are right. But now I'm more certain and I even feel awkward because of the fuss I provoked here. Good thing is that this feeling is getting weaker the older my daughter is becoming. The more we can see what she really wants and how she really feels. I didn't want to appear childish but I probably did at least for some of you. I would like to especially thank to those of you who didn't call me stupid and took their time to help me believe that there's nothing wrong with my feelings. You gave me - firstly the optimism and the belief that things will turn well and the power to act. I'm aware of the fact that it's some insecurity of mine not to trust my own feelings and being unable to act when I should but being accepted is something that helps building your self-esteem and dealing with such things. I am who I am - believe me I'm trying to be a better person every day. We all have to live with our insecurities, fight them, tame them and try to accept them.

And to Scapegrace - I wish I could get to know you better. I'm not that bad.

[Beautiful sky]

And to Scapegrace - I wish I could get to know you better. I'm not that bad.

Pleaser!

[Beautiful sky]

And to Scapegrace - I wish I could get to know you better. I'm not that bad.

Scape, being Beta NF, and Beta NF in general are inclined to notice negative things about people because they are an involuntary type who have tendencies to notice weaknesses and others and hyper focus on them to destroy all that is unreliable and unstable. Don't pay too much attention.

[Beautiful sky]

I realised that SEE people are so preoccupied with stuff and you can actually profit from that kind of knowledge. Just throw something that belongs to her out the window and watch her dive into the unknown. If it works, I am going to "patent" it.

Same with LIE but not quite. Throw a sweeper at them and watch them melt like yesterday's snow.

Hahaha....throw something eye catching, glitzy and glamourous at her and see her get distracted by her senses Nice one. I love it. I'll buy...how much.

[Beautiful sky]

Yes...

Let's not go over the top, though. Something eye-cathing may, in fact, distract her and she may hop into the oven instead out the window, so let's be reasonable and stick to the "patent". I'll sell not cheap, for only socialists sell cheap, for instance $5 and you end up paying $100 for the rest of your life. I charge only $10 once.

hahaha rofl

[Eliza Thomason]

It seems all the Betas/Gammas/Se-valuers find it normal that she stand up and defend her space. One thing I ask, is that you show some understanding for Ver and Infantiles in general, that this is not something they normally do. Infantiles, dare I say, are arguably the most conflict-avoidant / least territorial people in the entire socion. They're not used to just "raising a voice" when they have a personal problem. It may seem like the natural and easiest way to solve a problem to you, but these are people who simply aren't used to thinking that way.

So yes, Ver will need to learn to stand up for her own rights more. I don't consider her problem weird though or think something's wrong with her. That's just my perspective.

Wow, William, this is a good insight. I did not know it was common to Infantiles; I only know its true of some of my Identicals. Yes, I am conflict-avoidant and not territorial though I have had to learn how to make boundaries and defend my territory - but that has only happened when I have been backed in a corner and super uncomfortable and the only way out is to make boundaries. Some people. because of personality type. also because of good example or teaching growing up. naturally know how to make boundaries and defend territory, while others of us, because of types and/or bad example growing up (authoritarian parents make this worse I think) have to learn it on our own, when situations make it clear its time.

William, I also thought your chimp video post was thoughtful.

Scape, being Beta NF, and Beta NF in general are inclined to notice negative things about people because they are an involuntary type who have tendencies to notice weaknesses and others and hyper focus on them to destroy all that is unreliable and unstable. Don't pay too much attention.

Oh, Scape is Beta NF? I keep seeing her as ESI. That woudl be Ver's Supervisee. Personally I do not see Scape in this thread acting like an EIE or an IEI but, maybe there is more for me to understand of those types. Whatever type Scapegrace is, she has a very negative reaction to Ver just being herself. Wow! Kind of hard not to pay attention to. @Ver, you have not been the only IEE to post here about a difficult personal situation only to get shocking mocking responses like Scapegrace's. Like getting hit when you are down. Sorry for that. Just know that it happens here. It seems like our just being ourselves is SO annoying, SO wrong, SO stupid, to some other type - no matter what type you are. There is not a single type here, who, when expressing his/her issues is going to have ALL the other types think: "Well, now, that's reasonable..."

I do give Scapegrace credit here for at least explaining herself after her rant. Though I disagree with about all of what she said.. When you are a Mom, Scape, you might feel differently. However, also, if you don't want someone picking up your baby without your permission I do not think you would have any trouble saying, 'Hey! Ask!" And that would be a good (hypothetical) example to follow, Ver.

[Eliza Thomason]

... I didn't want to appear childish but I probably did at least for some of you.

Hi Ver, not sure if you said this becasue of Wm's "Infantile" comment, if so, it was the "Childlike" he is referring to in DarkAngelFireWolf69's erotic types.

...

IMO that's the Ne/Se problem... e.g. I truly appreciate my ISFp grandmother for being like a sweet angel. She NEVER pushed anyone to visit her, she NEVER used any words like: I'm so poor please, please visit us, I would really like...(that's what my MIL does) but still we all naturally gathered around her. Without any kind of pushiness. Also, she somehow feels when she's needed and she'll be always there for you. She doesn't think: I want this, I want that. She thinks what her children and grandchildren want and she tries to give it to us.
But that's her - to me she's just perfect .

ISFps are awesome, aren't they? They really awesome Moms and grandmas.

... I want to add that she is REALLY possessive of the baby - not all the time of course and she REALLY took her from my hands without any smile, I got kind of small and scared and unable to act. She then kept ignoring me and talking with her husband : grandfather you calm the baby down! etc.

Your getting small and unable to act is the real problem here. It helps if you realize that what came after is because you did not act. So you can think about how you should act when the situation arises again, which it of course well, because you taught in this situation that its okay with you to do that. So you will have to act STRONGER than you would have if you had acted at once. By not acting, you 'said': "Its okay! Ignore me! That's fine!" So she did.

I fully understand that she wants the baby, that she loves her etc. But... I can not understand her all the time without her trying to understand me.

SEE and IEE are Lookalikes and just aren't going to really "understand" each other's thinking. I cannot imagine any of the SEEs in my life saying to me, "Can you tell me about how your thinking, and why you think like you do?" They just aren't curious about it, and if I were to explain it I do not think the woudl find it too interesting, or relative. I do not think in the case of baby-grabbing any "understanding" is needed - just boundaries!

You and SEE will probably get along great as soon as you solve this issue. Hard as it is to make that boundary, the end will be good. You can try to get your LSE to do it for you, but they do tend to be strong-independents who think you should be independent, and, changing roles with our parents is not easy for anyone, so, you have other battles to forge there, most likely, and, you are bringing some strife into that relationship at a time when you really need to be a team. Your husband and his parents will ultimately respect you more if you make the boundaries yourself. They need to hear from you "I want it this way" "This is not okay with me".

.She's a very strong willed person and if she wants something she'll get it no matter what the costs are. She doesn't care about anything when she wants the baby. She wants her she gets her.

Its your job to teach her that's not okay. She can handle it! SEEs have their emotional reactions to things so she might display it, but don't worry, she is entitled to her feelings, and they won't last. Once she knows its just your boundary she will accept it. Boundaries should be "I want... I don't want..." not, "You always... You shouldn't". But there are lots of books on boundary-making and dealing with difficult people that will tell you how. I have used them (unlike some of the other 16 types here who have no need of such books!)

She also seems to be jealous of my mother... she's constantly asking me if the baby's afraid of her or not, how much time she spends with her etc. When she asks me e.g. when did you get that toy and I say: My mother gave it to her she would be like: I would have bought it if I saw that too.

I think SEEs need assurance they are valued and liked. Your not making boundaries has put a wedge in your relationship, you now feel bad having her around, and cannot appreciate her now, and she senses that. She honestly cannot imagine that her behavior has something to do with it since she is only doing normal things for her, and you have not said anything! So besides making boundaries you can do repair-work on the relationship by accentuating the positive. When you take the crying baby from her, you can thank her and make sure she knows you don't think its her, saying, "Oh, she is so fussy when she is tired!". Also be sure to give her the baby when she is fed and rested, they will have a better time of it.

Also, I feel kind of guilt of letting that happen - like I'm a bad mother. I remember the situation when the grandfather, after 10 beers was just carrying the baby around, without me being able to do anything. It was then when I acted really stupid not acting at all just watching that and feeling like crying and I want to make up myself and her for that.

Reject the guilty feelings. We all make mistakes, all of us. Just be unhappy with your erroneous actions (not making boundaries) and focus what you should have done, and do that next time. Like,as soon as you SUSPECT Grandpa is tipsy, no need to find out if he actually is or isn't, just immediately err on the side of caution and authoritatively go take your daughter from him (without asking him!), simply because "I want her now".