Beta STs vs Alpha NTs & generally of PoLRs and subtypes

[XoX]

Ok...how do you know which is which?

Especially...
1) how do you tell a difference between INTj and ISTj if both are strong logical subtypes? Especially how does the subtype affect their PoLR?

2) how do you tell a difference between ENTp and ESTp if both are strong logical subtypes? Especially how does the subtype affect their PoLR?

3) how do you tell a difference between ESTp and ISTj if ESTp is strong logical subtype and ISTj is strong sensory subtype?

Generally what effect does subtype have on your PoLR? In any type and in these types in particular?

[Expat]

Ok...how do you know which is which?

Especially...
1) how do you tell a difference between INTj and ISTj if both are strong logical subtypes? Especially how does the subtype affect their PoLR?

2) how do you tell a difference between ENTp and ESTp if both are strong logical subtypes? Especially how does the subtype affect their PoLR?

Very simplistically, the ISTj and ESTp make a generally "tough, solid and unafraid" impression, the INTj and ENTp are more childlike by comparison;

3) how do you tell a difference between ESTp and ISTj if ESTp is strong logical subtype and ISTj is strong sensory subtype?

Then you have to look at their temperaments, EP vs IJ -- especially irrational vs rational. An ISTj is about the most rational of all types.

Generally what effect does subtype have on your PoLR? In any type and in these types in particular?

I don't know that anyone has a clear-cut answer to that, but I think the PoLR is less sensitive in the accepting subtype.

[FDG]

Theorethically it should be like that yeah, less sensive PoLR. I think also less "active, though? because otherwise the accepting subtype seems to have an "advantage" over the other which doesn't make sense

[Expat]

Well, the accepting subtype would have a less sensitive PoLR but also a more sensitive role function, so it's not necessarily an advantage.

[FDG]

Ah yeah,agreed, I didn't think about that.

Anyway XoX, I cannot create a logical framework but I can tell you my observations, I know two ISTjs one Ti subtype and one Se subtype, they both come off as much more P when you interact with them (they're generally friendlier), but their life is generally much more structured and they're more coscentious. Another ISTj extreme Ti subtype instead comes across exactly like me but talks less and does more. Strangely both Ti subtypes are much more active than the Se one.

[XoX]

Very simplistically, the ISTj and ESTp make a generally "tough, solid and unafraid" impression, the INTj and ENTp are more childlike by comparison;

Hmm...can you give an example of what would be "tough, solid and unafraid" and what would be "childlike". Meaning an example scenario where both of these would be but into and how these qualities would perhaps manifest there.

Then you have to look at their temperaments, EP vs IJ -- especially irrational vs rational. An ISTj is about the most rational of all types.

I have some problems grasping the "rational" thing. As I feel I'm very rational in many ways. For example I can't be in a relationship if I can't rationalize that it is a good state to be in. Feelings mean nothing if my mind commands me to get out. However I'm not very "J" in MBTI sense i.e. I probably look irrational for an outsider. In the socionics.com type test I always score "internal j, external p". Could this mean I'm socionics rational but MBTI irrational? Internally rational but externally irrational?

Generally what effect does subtype have on your PoLR? In any type and in these types in particular?

I don't know that anyone has a clear-cut answer to that, but I think the PoLR is less sensitive in the accepting subtype.

Does "accepting subtype" mean that one prefers their perceiving function over their rational function in Ego-Block? Or does it mean e.g. that you prefer your creative function over your leading function (or vice versa?).

But all in all whatever "accepting subtype" means we can conclude that accepting subtype has better balanced role and PoLR? And anti-accepting (rejecting?) subtype instead has strong role function and weak PoLR?

[Expat]

Hmm...can you give an example of what would be "tough, solid and unafraid" and what would be "childlike". Meaning an example scenario where both of these would be but into and how these qualities would perhaps manifest there.

I can't think of a scenario now, it's a perception. "Tough, solid and unafraid" is like the cowboy entering a saloon and you know that he's not one to mess around with, even if physically he's not that impressive.

"Childlike" means "softer" and perhaps with a sense of "wonder". Both ENTps and ESTps can be jokey and merry, but the ENTp makes a more "nerdy" impression. It is difficult to be more precise.

Then you have to look at their temperaments, EP vs IJ -- especially irrational vs rational. An ISTj is about the most rational of all types.

I have some problems grasping the "rational" thing. As I feel I'm very rational in many ways. For example I can't be in a relationship if I can't rationalize that it is a good state to be in. Feelings mean nothing if my mind commands me to get out. However I'm not very "J" in MBTI sense i.e. I probably look irrational for an outsider. In the socionics.com type test I always score "internal j, external p". Could this mean I'm socionics rational but MBTI irrational? Internally rational but externally irrational?

J and P are indeed essentially about how you appear externally in punctuality, tidiness, etc. An irrational person can "learn" to be J but still be irrational.

An irrational person is someone who often changes their mind for no good reason and is not bothered by it, and on the contrary, is annoyed with those who ask for more consistency. An irrational person - especially an EP - will be more likely to say and do things impulsively than a rational person.

Does "accepting subtype" mean that one prefers their perceiving function over their rational function in Ego-Block? Or does it mean e.g. that you prefer your creative function over your leading function (or vice versa?).

But all in all whatever "accepting subtype" means we can conclude that accepting subtype has better balanced role and PoLR? And anti-accepting (rejecting?) subtype instead has strong role function and weak PoLR?

An ENTj is always an ENTj, that is, someone with EJ temperament with in the ego block. However, an ENTj intuitive subtype (producing) focuses more on than the logical and split subtypes, and an ENTj logical subtype (accepting) focuses more on than the others.

That is all it means really.

However, a logical subtype, by focusing more on , will focus less on and therefore be more sensitive on the role function. They will also focus less on and therefore more on , so the PoLR will be less sensitive.

[XoX]

I can't think of a scenario now, it's a perception. "Tough, solid and unafraid" is like the cowboy entering a saloon and you know that he's not one to mess around with, even if physically he's not that impressive.

"Childlike" means "softer" and perhaps with a sense of "wonder". Both ENTps and ESTps can be jokey and merry, but the ENTp makes a more "nerdy" impression. It is difficult to be more precise.

Somehow I generally see myself more as childlike. Or let's say I'm not consciously projecting "tough, solid and unafraid" image. I think I'm more like this "explorer" type who gets interested in anything unusual around me. However if threatened or pressured I can become "tough, solid and unafraid". Then I become a "solid brick wall" which can even scare some people. I have even managed to scare an ESTp when in that stage However when I walk into a saloon I probably don't initially project much of tough guy image. And I'm rather submissive unless someone or something seriously threathens me. I don't feel much need to be the "alpha male" or something like that. Just that I won't submit to anyone else being my "alpha male" either.

An irrational person is someone who often changes their mind for no good reason and is not bothered by it, and on the contrary, is annoyed with those who ask for more consistency. An irrational person - especially an EP - will be more likely to say and do things impulsively than a rational person.

I change my mind very often but I think there is always a good reason to it. For an outsider it might seem like I'm spontanously changing my mind but in my mind I always have a reason for it. I'm just not likely to explain that reason to everyone. If I'm asked about it I can always give a rational explanation for why I did it. Still I'm not sure. You make it sound like I'm irrational but somehow I feel way more rational than most people around me. I rarely do anything without a reason. Just some of my reasons are rather short term thus may seem spontaneous. I don't know if this is how all irrationals do it. Being sort of "rational in the short term", "irrational in the long term".

I mean if I look my life back I have a rational reason for all my actions but the whole lifeline looks a bit chaotic since I quite often do short term rationalizations and less often long term rationalizations. Especially in less important matters I often rationalize only short term. In important matters I rationalize long term. This is especially true with money. Every time I use it I think how it fits my long term budget. I'm definately not a spontaneous money user. Nowadays I have extended my rationality to food too. I started gaining weight so I had to make an eating plan. So currently I don't eat anything without taking into account the energy it contains. I have lived like this for quite a time now and it works. I can control my weight very well.

An example of my rationality with money and food...at this very moment there is about 5 days left of this month and about 7-8 hours left of this day and I know exactly how much money I'm allowed to spend in these 5 days according to my spending rules and how many calories I'm allowed to eat in these 8 hours according to my eating rules. And it would need extreme conditions like an end of the world to make me break these rules. I would hate myself and spank myself and hit my head 10 times to a wall for being so weak should I not be able to follow through on my plan . Or perhaps I should say process as I have no specific goal in mind when following my spending or eating rules other than slowly lower my weight and increase the amount of money I have. So I'm clearly process oriented. I just like important indicators moving into positive direction (weight going down, money going up). And I redefine these processes every now and then to be more effective or sometimes to allow me more freedom of movement if I feel I should perhaps spend 50 euros more in a month and eat 100kcal more each day. When younger I even had a habbit of keeping statistics of my processes (in MS-Excel for example) and fine tune them based on the collected data. Nowadays I'm slightly lazy with that and I'm better at tracking the information in my head than I used to be.

However when having fun with people or doing something which I have no rules for I'm pretty spontaneous though even then I think I never completely "let go". Generally speaking I make certain rules which I absolutely follow and never ever break. But these only affect some parts of my life. Other than that I'm externally rather spontaneous or irrational even. Any action not breaking these rules is "unimportant" and thus there is no need to rationalize them in the long term. So in a way I rationalize why I can behave like an irrational in many situations. So does this make me rational or irrational in socionics sense?

An ENTj is always an ENTj, that is, someone with EJ temperament with in the ego block. However, an ENTj intuitive subtype (producing) focuses more on than the logical and split subtypes, and an ENTj logical subtype (accepting) focuses more on than the others.

That is all it means really.

However, a logical subtype, by focusing more on , will focus less on and therefore be more sensitive on the role function. They will also focus less on and therefore more on , so the PoLR will be less sensitive.

Ok. I think I get the idea of the effect of subtype to PoLR and role function. However the definition of "accepting" subtype is still not clear as I thought subtype would be an "accepting" ENTj.

In order to be sure...

ENTj - intuitive -> producing?
ENTj - thinking -> accepting?

How would this apply to
ENTp - intuitive
ENTp - thinking

and

INTj - intuitive
INTj - thinking

Point being is the intuitive subtype always the "producing" subtype or does this depend on whether intuition is your leading or creative function? Or does this depend on whether your intuition is introverted or extroverted?
I'm not trying to be annoying just that people throw these concepts around and I can't _exactly_ grasp what makes a subtype "accepting" or "producing". So If you would answer to the ENTp and INTj questions it would be enough to finally understand the exact rules

[aestrivex]

accepting subtype- dominant subtype.
producing subtype- creative subtype.

[XoX]

accepting subtype- dominant subtype.
producing subtype- creative subtype.

Thanks

[UDP]

What type would you want to be?


AS for the child like alpha vs solid like beta, yeah, I'll give you that. I generally come across as passive at first. But that doesn't mean that, as an INTj (and I imagine so for ENTp), that you don't have any whoopass to you.

I think a good measure would be how much you like conflict, fighting, competition, etc. If you're much more inclined to enter contests, then you're likely Beta, ISTj.

However when I walk into a saloon I probably don't initially project much of tough guy image. And I'm rather submissive unless someone or something seriously threathens me. I don't feel much need to be the "alpha male" or something like that. Just that I won't submit to anyone else being my "alpha male" either.

Just like Ps can learn J, an alpha NT can learn to be 'tough guy'ish. ENTps are natural actors, right? If you're an intuitive INTj, you probably can do a decent job as well. If someone tries to go "Alpha male", then I have a tendancy to start plotting against them, just incase they try to do something. I do not tolerate subordination. Which is ironic, as I come off as very yielding or passive, in how I keep to myself.


uh, I was going to write more, but I have to go now.
later

[XoX]

One analogy occurred to me. Do you think that evolution as a process is irrational or rational? I mean there is no goal. There is no direction. There is no plan (apparently). However there are clear rules and a clear process which consistently optimizes the "product". I view my life as an evolutive process. Not rational in the sense of setting goals and planning but not irrational as I have clear metrics of "success" and processes with which I try to perfect those metrics. However my metrics are not as stable as the process of evolution has. I'm likely to redefine them every now and then.

In any case by answering whether evolution as a process is rational or irrational you can find the answer to my rationality/irrationality. I like to think evolution as a rather rational process but perhaps it is irrational in socionics sense?

Edit: I will read the above post from UDP later as my wife wants me to go shopping now and is getting angry