Member Questionnaire (Myst)

[Myst]

Member Questionnaire 1 (Myst)

What is beauty? What is love?

Beauty is aesthetic. Love is an emotion. If I was to interpret it beyond that, I'd turn to brain science.

What are your most important values?

I'm staring here with a blank mind...

Do you have any sort of spiritual/religious beliefs, and why do you hold (or don't) those beliefs in the first place?

I'm not religious whatsoever but I sometimes have this abstract wondering state that's kind of spiritual. As to the "why", no reason honestly. I just get into this mind state sometimes. If I tried to make this more concrete, I would say it's worship of the world as it exists. If you want to put it into a category, it's a sort of pantheism, most like the monist physicalist kind but only because of my natural skepticism about anything beyond matter, it'd be nice otherwise to think about other stuff (like, if there is a special consciousness or whatever the fuck, etc).

Opinion on war and militaries? What is power to you?

War & military are necessities.

Power to me: will, resources, influence.

What have you had long conversations about? What are your interests? Why?

Long conversation = arguing ;p

I'm interested in things that relate to my goals and especially if these things can be analysed and if they are a challenge physically or mentally.

Interested in health/medicine as a conversation topic? Are you focused on your body?

Not interested in it as a conversation topic, except for science of biology, that can be interesting.

Focus on body: no, I take care of my bodily needs just fine but that's about it.

What do you think of daily chores?

Meh

Books or films you liked? Recently read/watched or otherwise. Examples welcome.

Book: first one coming to mind, 1984, there is of course a lot more I liked
First film coming to mind, American Beauty then Inception; then I'm sure there's a lot more of these again

What has made you cry? What has made you smile? Why?

Do tantrums count for crying? That happens if something gets in my way for too long. Like when I want to achieve a goal and it just keeps putting up the obstacles without me seeing the end of it all or when I don't win in something (like, a game or anything).

As for what makes me smile, eh, good jokes, friends, I guess

Where do you feel: at one with the environment/a sense of belonging?

I'm at one with the world by default but I usually don't belong to any group.

What have people seen as your weaknesses? What do you dislike about yourself?

As for people thinking whatever hmmm...impatience? Also, my inability to understand people's feelings.. hmm also picking battles that I shouldn't have. These are things I've been told and can recall right now.

What I dislike about myself, it's better put as what annoys me at times: when I feel I'm not able to be "fun" enough; failures to control things in the area of relationships; failing to think of options or evaluate bigger picture of a situation to deal with some situations better; too much impulsivity at times in terms of longer term goals

What have people seen as your strengths? What do you like about yourself?

For both: confidence, persistence/perseverance, intelligence, resourceful ...probably some other things too

Also, for the latter: I like to think I have hidden depth hahah no, joke, I hope you didn't actually believe me

In what areas of your life would you like help?

Someone please explain emotions and relationships to me. Lol actually no, I wouldn't be able to do much with the information. No, you cannot help me.

Ever feel stuck in a rut? If yes, describe the causes and your reaction to it.

That's not usual for me, no, but it did happen, when I felt I didn't have any challenges, any goals, not finding opportunities for any of that. Then too many options were presented and I didn't feel good until I picked one and just ran with that.

Also when I was trying to achieve a certain something for years and in the end I was feeling like I was still at day 1, despite repeatedly beating my head against the wall.

What qualities do you most like and dislike in other people? What types do you get along with?

Idk... ok I guess too much passivity and lack of emotionality in other people can be a problem. And, sure, I know, I'm judging right now but I don't want people to be judgmental.

Oh as for types, I don't want to create bias here ;P

How do you feel about romance/sex? What qualities do you want in a partner?

Sex is good, now why wouldn't it be...

If you were to raise a child, what would be your main concerns, what measures would you take, and why?

Main concerns: he/she needs to be able to have autonomy, basically willpower and the ability to get around in the world, including intelligence. Hmm also social intelligence, that's useful too. I'm sure strong focus on early development would help there.

A friend makes a claim that clashes with your current beliefs. What is your inward and outward reaction?

Oh yes I'm so gonna argue, right now and here!!!

Describe your relationship to society. How do you see people as a whole? What do you consider a prevalent social problem? Name one.

I'm kind of antisocial really.....

Problem: surviving the consequences of trying to balance old evolutionary traits with new cultural/economy crap ...oh and we will also have to sort the issue of having enough resources for the world's people in future too.

How do you choose your friends and how do you behave around them?

Ah whoever's got *style* and willing to have fun is a friend hey even just the latter is enough to have good times together

Around them, I behave a lot more spontaneously and I suddenly develop a sense of humour too.

How do you behave around strangers?

If I'm interacting with them: default is formal restricted behaviour, smiling at best*. However I still try to get my own way in things, in which case I may completely let go of politeness, depending on the situation. That was now a very understated way of describing really inappropriate behaviour.

*: Unless they make the atmosphere informal, in which case I might smile more and stuff like that.

If they just happen to be around but I'm not actually interacting with them, I mind my own business in my own usual way, well unless our interests conflict.

[Myst]

So I filled out this questionnaire and it automatically made the thread, *very cool* ...Thanks for any input on type

Note I'm this mix of 853 and sx/sp (definitely soc-last) in Enneagram if that helps.

[Joy]

I'd guess SLE from your answers.

[Myst]

I'd guess SLE from your answers.

thanks for the input; mind giving some reasoning too?

[Joy]

You talk about style, fun, emotiveness. These sound like Fe/Ti values.

You talk about impulsiveness and readiness to fight. Possible EP temperament and Se dominance/valuing.

You didn't have much interest in analyzing or introspecting, and you pretty much just skipped over those questions. This could be weak intuition.

You come off as an energetic person, too.

ESE or SEE could also work. It's hard to pinpoint these things with such limited information. There are people who have been around for years and still don't know their types and/or there's dispute in the community about their type, so it's not always as simple as answering questions.

That said, making a video can help if you're willing.

[mu4]

SLE answers

[golden]

What are your most important values?

I'm staring here with a blank mind...

Best-ever response to any of the questionnaire items. (Biased: Blank was my response to the whole freaking thing.)

[Myst]

You talk about style, fun, emotiveness. These sound like Fe/Ti values.

You talk about impulsiveness and readiness to fight. Possible EP temperament and Se dominance/valuing.

You didn't have much interest in analyzing or introspecting, and you pretty much just skipped over those questions. This could be weak intuition.

You come off as an energetic person, too.

ESE or SEE could also work. It's hard to pinpoint these things with such limited information. There are people who have been around for years and still don't know their types and/or there's dispute in the community about their type, so it's not always as simple as answering questions.

That said, making a video can help if you're willing.

Thanks. Btw I can actually analyse stuff if there's logic in it but I don't analyse everything, just certain things.

SLE answers

Thanks here too

Best-ever response to any of the questionnaire items. (Biased: Blank was my response to the whole freaking thing.)

Hahah, what's your type?

YAY I knew I liked this person!

Didn't read through questionnaire yet, but may later, but if SLE than I'd say possible Se subtype from interaction. Lots of spontaneity was there
Of course way more getting to know you would be needed to be close to sure of anything.

Looking forward to all that

[Myst]

@Joy what made you think of SEE btw? My bf is ILI

[darya]

I like you a lot. You seem in control, stable and like you know what the hell you're doing Idk exactly about your type though. Some Se ego.

[Joy]

Statement further points to Se sub.

Agreed.

[Joy]

@Joy what made you think of SEE btw? My bf is ILI

All of the same things that made me suggest SLE and ESE. I only threw it in because SEEs can seem pretty Fe compared to other Te/Fi types. I think they're usually more flippant than ESEs.

[Myst]

Statement further points to Se sub.

Hmm why, does Ti sub analyse everything?

Me too Now pics and/or vid are the next initiation rituals

Heheh I'll try to get around to it

I like you a lot. You seem in control, stable and like you know what the hell you're doing Idk exactly about your type though. Some Se ego.

Thanks for the input Yea I like control and yes I would say I'm pretty calm/stable in general except when not.. I do get frustrated or angry easily but that passes quickly.

All of the same things that made me suggest SLE and ESE. I only threw it in because SEEs can seem pretty Fe compared to other Te/Fi types. I think they're usually more flippant than ESEs.

Mhmm if I'm brutally honest I don't think I have that high Fe

[Joy]

Mhmm if I'm brutally honest I don't think I have that high Fe

I hear ya. I do think SLE is much more likely than SEE or ESE based on the currently available information.

[Myst]

Yea Ti subs pitter patter on the logic of things much more. They can be in that sort of pensive, analytical state very often. Se subs are just spontaneous and Se-like most of the time, and their Ti might not always show, but when it's time to get serious that's when you can really tell they're a logical. The ST pragmatism is definitely still there in them.

Based on that then I'm actually more Ti than Se-SLE. I said I don't analyse everything... but the things I do analyse, I analyse a lot. Also in quite some situations I'm more controlled than spontaneous... it's also mood dependent, when in a good mood especially with good atmosphere around, I'll be very spontaneous and more like Se-SLE then, yes.

Overall, I will say the types I was thinking of before posting this questionnaire are SLE and LSI.

[Amber]

Se ego, SLE > SEE.

meh, please post more challenging and less transparent Q-nnaires.

853 sx/sp is one of the coolest tho.

[Aylen]

I have few clues on your type (so little information) and no interaction so far but time will tell.

I drew two tarot cards to get a feel for your energy. Hmmm, interesting... welcome.

http://www.biddytarot.com/tarot-card...or-arcana/sun/

http://www.biddytarot.com/tarot-card...three-of-cups/




Your pages are still blank... for now.

Um, not trying to sound cryptic.

[Myst]

Se ego, SLE > SEE.

meh, please post more challenging and less transparent Q-nnaires.

853 sx/sp is one of the coolest tho.

Thanks oooh what do you like about 853 sx/sp specifically? :d

...as for questionnaires, if you know of a better one, let me know

I have few clues on your type (so little information) and no interaction so far but time will tell.

You can ask questions if you want

I drew two tarot cards to get a feel for your energy. Hmmm, interesting... welcome.

heh do you randomly draw cards for that or how does that work? Nice pic btw

Um, not trying to sound cryptic.

Really, I was about to accuse you of trying to do exactly just that

[Myst]

@Agni

you know of no other questionnaires then and so that was just a request for someone to make up a better one?

[Mactheknife]

Clearly Myst is EII.

[ouronis]

Clearly Myst is EII.

Ne subtype. Submarine captain...all around cereal box talking head of the year

[Myst]

Clearly Myst is EII.

Ne subtype. Submarine captain...all around cereal box talking head of the year

Lol @ you two trolling so cutely

[Mactheknife]

Lol @ you two trolling so cutely

Life goals!

[Amber]

this Q-nnaire is so freaking' SLE ... Myst, don't lose touch with yourself!

[Myst]

this Q-nnaire is so freaking' SLE ... Myst, don't lose touch with yourself!

Lol, hmm which parts in it do you find so much SLE > LSI?

PS: you mentioned other "more challenging" questionnaires, where are those?

[lynn]

i see you type yourself as LSI, but i think you should consider SLE at least as a possibility too. (just my subjective 2 cents). from the questionnaire it seems to me that you use Ti to support your Se, instead of the other way round (the way LSI's use it). but that's just an impression ... (in true IEI fashion i can't put it into words ^^)

for example, this answer:
"What I dislike about myself, it's better put as what annoys me at times: when I feel I'm not able to be "fun" enough; failures to control things in the area of relationships; failing to think of options or evaluate bigger picture of a situation to deal with some situations better; too much impulsivity at times in terms of longer term goals" sounds much more SLE than LSI to me. i don't know any LSI's who would use the adjective impulsive when referring to themselves. what made you decide that you're LSI over SLE?

[Myst]

i see you type yourself as LSI, but i think you should consider SLE at least as a possibility too. (just my subjective 2 cents). from the questionnaire it seems to me that you use Ti to support your Se, instead of the other way round (the way LSI's use it). but that's just an impression ... (in true IEI fashion i can't put it into words ^^)

for example, this answer:
"What I dislike about myself, it's better put as what annoys me at times: when I feel I'm not able to be "fun" enough; failures to control things in the area of relationships; failing to think of options or evaluate bigger picture of a situation to deal with some situations better; too much impulsivity at times in terms of longer term goals" sounds much more SLE than LSI to me. i don't know any LSI's who would use the adjective impulsive when referring to themselves. what made you decide that you're LSI over SLE?

Thanks for the input

The impulsivity thing means that if I don't make a plan to follow then I don't focus enough on my long term goals. Without that focus I can be impulsive living in the moment though I'm not crazy running around like SLEs are described, I just don't relate to that. I'm quite long term oriented otherwise and I like that orientation. Also, I can sometimes act too fast and I get impatient easily, which is the other reason why I mention impulsivity. Though I easily make myself quite patient if I remind myself about the need for that. Overall.. impulsivity isn't exactly my biggest issue, the other things I listed before it are more of an issue.

Why I decided on LSI, I noticed something was "off" about SLE. I originally thought SLE because Se is most conscious for me but the theory of course has an answer to that, lol. Apparently strong Creative function is the most conscious, making the Base function a bit "invisible". That fits me. So when I tried on LSI, the entire model A seemed to work out much more naturally than with SLE. I managed to compare SLE functions with LSI functions a lot and SLE definitely is a bit "off". For example, Ti for me seems to have more of a substantial agenda compared to what SLEs seem to be doing with it. I could go on a lot about this but only if you are interested.

Also.. if you met me IRL, you'd see I'm really introtim with my dual being extratim instead of the other way around. My experience with IEIs IRL matches Activity relations and experience with EIEs is what seems to be duality because I'm just being myself there, while with IEIs the Se/Ni axis gets a bit too "activated". Now of course if you feel like I'm your dual, I'm flattered I just think I'd disappoint you IRL, lol, I would not be the crazy always running around fun type of person that you would supposedly be looking for. I'm much more of a stabilizing influence than the kind of person who shakes up people lost in la la la land.

[lynn]

hm, yeah, the thing is i've yet to meet an LSI for whom impatience, acting too fast or even a hint of impulsivity is a problem. but that's just based on the LSIs i know, so i don't know in what way subtypes/stackings/whatever come into play. the LSIs i know build structures/systems and then try to enforce them to keep things in order (and tame the for them otherwise overwhelming chaos of the world, or something like that ^^ ). i heard LSIs complaining about chaoticness, disorganisation, things which are badly structured, etc.., but they never mention something about their impulsive side. maybe they have it, but at least they usually don't mention it as a problem. i heard LSIs to complain about it as a trait in others. (e.g. that's where LSI and SLE's often clash with each other). the other things you listed seem SLE to me as well, but could probably be LSI traits too ...

if you're willing to to go into more detail about your Ti agenda i'm curious about that. sounds interesting!

based on writing i cannot tell whether someone is my dual or not anyways. (i usually go by duality vibes or their behaviour in real life). so, it's just to throw out another possiblity. your writing style reminds me of some SLEs i know in real life. but that could be type unrelated (as an IEI i secretly think that any kind of beta STs are the coolest people in the world anyways... haha, beta quadra is so weird. i'm still confused what beta ST's like about beta NF's with all their emotional craziness .. )

[Myst]

hm, yeah, the thing is i've yet to meet an LSI for whom impatience, acting too fast or even a hint of impulsivity is a problem. but that's just based on the LSIs i know, so i don't know in what way subtypes/stackings/whatever come into play. the LSIs i know build structures/systems and then try to enforce them to keep things in order (and tame the for them otherwise overwhelming chaos of the world, or something like that ^^ ). i heard LSIs complaining about chaoticness, disorganisation, things which are badly structured, etc.., but they never mention something about their impulsive side. maybe they have it, but at least they usually don't mention it as a problem. i heard LSIs to complain about it as a trait in others. (e.g. that's where LSI and SLE's often clash with each other). the other things you listed seem SLE to me as well, but could probably be LSI traits too ...

So you are saying the LSIs you know never get impatient?

LSI profile about impulsivity in terms of weak Ni: "LSIs can have a tendency to act impulsively and to lack self-control, sometimes appearing aggressive and overbearing. (http://www.sociotype.com/socionics/t....NSHB7Lfb.dpuf)

Also, description of Ni HA: "Without an outside reassurance that a task can be accomplished in time without hurry, or that there is no need to deal with an ongoing development and that for the moment it's best to wait and see, the individual is anxious and inclined to try to deal with such issues immediately and sometimes impulsively. (http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.p...rted_Intuition)"

Though I wouldn't say I feel anxiety, feels more like a strong need to act *right now*.

That on its own okay though, I can relatively easily remind myself to just wait etc, where I find it to be a real problem is when I don't have a plan or a good enough plan. That's why I mentioned it in the questionnaire. Make sense?


Heh about complaining about chaos and disorganization.. I don't usually do that, no, I keep a lot of my thoughts to myself and I don't dwell on issues, I'll go to problem solving mode instead; but yes I can act on this, e.g. recently I threw out someone because of their creating too much disorganization.

Chaos otherwise doesn't scare me, I get by somehow, I guess, by understanding things to be able to maneuver. I do have a good tolerance for such stuff but I'd have to compare with the SLEs to see if it's really that good of a tolerance, lol. But yes I see myself as pretty stress resistant compared to most people and I know that sounds stereotypically SLE again... but I don't care for Gulenko's bs on correlating handling stress with type.

As for applying and even enforcing my systems.. yes I do that, usually just for myself but sometimes I do get involved with other people and then I do it with them too. I'm a "lone wolf" by default though so I don't see this as a salient part of myself.

One interesting note in Se-LSI profiles is that they don't always keep to their order, lol, that's described kinda a bit impulsive.. and I relate. (http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=LSI_subtypes)

if you're willing to to go into more detail about your Ti agenda i'm curious about that. sounds interesting!

Well it's like, things don't have a point if I don't understand them. I rely on that understanding heavily often even without noticing, it's so ingrained. If there's some phenomenon that I run into that I don't understand yet, I will consciously feel that.. I will put it away and maybe deal with it later if I can. I take this stuff seriously, not just to be playful, no, and I only really enjoy a project if I can get my logic involved with it heavily and then apply my system. Se without any little bit of Ti is just not something that will take my attention for long. Direct competition is the exception from that.. that will definitely take my attention but I still utilize Ti there too, sure. I will inevitably build my system for it... So yes where SLE description says that Ti is used for a power based agenda, I do that, sure but I'm more often in the mode of just enjoying logic and its application for its own sake. Though the concrete goal I have for the project is what takes the highest priority and that's one of the reasons why I type as D in DCNH. That definitely makes me seem SLE-ish, I won't deny that & the high creative Se as well.

As a summary, if we want to assume SLE is always in the mode of using Ti for the Se power based agendas and LSI is never in that mode then I must conclude that model is flawed because I'm between these two extremes... I'm closer to LSI though.

Let me know if you want to hear more details or if something is unclear

And, do you find SLE's use Ti in my way much?

based on writing i cannot tell whether someone is my dual or not anyways. (i usually go by duality vibes or their behaviour in real life). so, it's just to throw out another possiblity. your writing style reminds me of some SLEs i know in real life. but that could be type unrelated (as an IEI i secretly think that any kind of beta STs are the coolest people in the world anyways... haha, beta quadra is so weird. i'm still confused what beta ST's like about beta NF's with all their emotional craziness .. )

Yeah I'm sure offline you could tell As for my writing style, is that a vibe, because if not just an indescribable vibe, can you elaborate on it.

About the fine print part... yep, exactly, it's the crazy emotionality what I like, what else To me you beta NFs are the coolest/most interesting

[Myst]

@Lim

any luck checking this out?

[lynn]

ah, yes, sure. i wanted to respond earlier, but other things got in the way and then i forgot about it.

LSIs never come across to me as impulsive, because the ones i know always act methodical and rigid (and forceful too). but maybe i just feel that way because they are not Se enough, to counter my Ni-passivity. - you are right, they are impatient too. so, i don't know. (i'm not really helpful, i know )

about the chaos and disorganisation part, it's just that every LSI i encountered in a work environment brings up the issue how things are bady structured, how this has to be improved, etc. one LSI i know often complains about disorganisation and chaoticness in relation to an SLE he sometimes works together with, so maybe that's where mirror differences are more emphasised and my impressions are a bit skewed. they are in heavy competition too and there are lots of conflicts because of that. (btw, i didn't know the LSI's type, and was just at the beginning of figuring out socionics back then, until i was invited to his birthday party at his place and we stood next to a table with lots of paperwork and he said to me in a very serious, dry tone: "i already feel the urge to structure/organise this again." haha. )
the maneuvering part just sounds SLE to me

to go back to the LSI and SLE i mentioned before (because these are the only ones i can easily compare & contrast ^^). both of them are interested in the same kind of stuff and understood each other well in their research interests (sensory experience/physicality and how to make sense of it in a Ti way. literally that.) the difference is, the SLE tried things out, then understand/explain/categorise it via Ti. (which always leaves me in awe xD ) and then wishes to have it put into some broader perspective in a very Ni-seeking way. the LSI just did it the other way round, making a plan, devising different categories to cover everything and then trying things out, to see what works or not, with the end aim of fullfilling his vision. so everything which deviates too much from his end aim (like wasting time with what he perceives as useless, uninteresting or unrelated or just plain stupid) was perceived as a threat to complete his work. but i felt both were serious both about both sensory experience (Se?) and how to make sense of it in a logical coherent way (Ti?). so different methods, but similar/same interests. is there one way you can relate more?

about the wrting style, it's an indescribable vibe, (of course. lol.) but i can attempt to point at some elements which i noticed. the answers in your questionnaire are very concise and concrete (but that could point to LSI too, i guess? i have no experience in this regard, i never communicated with an LSI via writing) for example. when i talk to SLE's in real life, it's like there is a gap of communication. what happens to me is that they say something which is concise and to the point and true, but something's is missing. so i usually ask them to elaborate this further or i add something, etc, of course, often very vague Ni way. then they feel like something's missing and want me to clarify what i mean by providing very concrete examples. to which i will bring again some ambiguity to it. and on and on it goes.
also both SLE's and IEI's switch between different moods (?), from serious to joking. your jokes in the questionnaire just vibe SLE to me. (i read that in a socionics article somewhere, i don't remember which one, that LSI and EIE's are much more serious in their communication and separate better between light and more serious atmosphere, opposed to IEI and SLE's who are more unrestrained in this manner). but as i said, it's a vibe, nothing set in stone.

[Myst]

ah, yes, sure. i wanted to respond earlier, but other things got in the way and then i forgot about it.

No worries and thanks

about the chaos and disorganisation part, it's just that every LSI i encountered in a work environment brings up the issue how things are bady structured, how this has to be improved, etc. one LSI i know often complains about disorganisation and chaoticness in relation to an SLE he sometimes works together with, so maybe that's where mirror differences are more emphasised and my impressions are a bit skewed. they are in heavy competition too and there are lots of conflicts because of that. (btw, i didn't know the LSI's type, and was just at the beginning of figuring out socionics back then, until i was invited to his birthday party at his place and we stood next to a table with lots of paperwork and he said to me in a very serious, dry tone: "i already feel the urge to structure/organise this again." haha. )
the maneuvering part just sounds SLE to me

I notice such issues easily but I usually don't think it's my job to complain/do anything about it :shrug If it actually gets in my way then that's a problem though, sure. That would annoy me quite a lot. I would never talk about this topic at a party like your LSI friend though, lol..

As for maneuvering.. I do enjoy that, SLE or LSI no matter So with the chaos thingie I'm first annoyed at such stuff but then quickly switch into the maneuvering mode I enjoy being really Se in that mode or something.

to go back to the LSI and SLE i mentioned before (because these are the only ones i can easily compare & contrast ^^). both of them are interested in the same kind of stuff and understood each other well in their research interests (sensory experience/physicality and how to make sense of it in a Ti way. literally that.) the difference is, the SLE tried things out, then understand/explain/categorise it via Ti. (which always leaves me in awe xD ) and then wishes to have it put into some broader perspective in a very Ni-seeking way. the LSI just did it the other way round, making a plan, devising different categories to cover everything and then trying things out, to see what works or not, with the end aim of fullfilling his vision. so everything which deviates too much from his end aim (like wasting time with what he perceives as useless, uninteresting or unrelated or just plain stupid) was perceived as a threat to complete his work. but i felt both were serious both about both sensory experience (Se?) and how to make sense of it in a logical coherent way (Ti?). so different methods, but similar/same interests. is there one way you can relate more?

Aah, yes, definitely, I relate to the LSI one there very much. No question about that whatsoever, you could've described me personally there lol

about the wrting style, it's an indescribable vibe, (of course. lol.) but i can attempt to point at some elements which i noticed. the answers in your questionnaire are very concise and concrete (but that could point to LSI too, i guess? i have no experience in this regard, i never communicated with an LSI via writing) for example.

I'm like the most concrete person you could meet, yeah. But that's just ST, I think

when i talk to SLE's in real life, it's like there is a gap of communication. what happens to me is that they say something which is concise and to the point and true, but something's is missing. so i usually ask them to elaborate this further or i add something, etc, of course, often very vague Ni way. then they feel like something's missing and want me to clarify what i mean by providing very concrete examples. to which i will bring again some ambiguity to it. and on and on it goes.

Are you IEI-Ni or IEI-Fe, incidentally?

Yes I do like concrete examples too, so to that extent I definitely relate to your description.

also both SLE's and IEI's switch between different moods (?), from serious to joking. your jokes in the questionnaire just vibe SLE to me. (i read that in a socionics article somewhere, i don't remember which one, that LSI and EIE's are much more serious in their communication and separate better between light and more serious atmosphere, opposed to IEI and SLE's who are more unrestrained in this manner). but as i said, it's a vibe, nothing set in stone.

OK, I see. Well if you can find that article, link to it please.

[chemical]

I tend to think this whole impulsive vs not fits in more in the less cognitive aspects than in cognitive type. I'd say a good example of the difference here is looking at instinct v sensation as Jung put it. Sensation strikes me as more cognitive, instinct less so, albeit Jung did suggest they are linked (but not equivalent), much as feelings and his feeling function can be quite linked but far from equivalent.

Where instinct might offer the energetic impetus to move something, Se will tell you how to do so. Similarly, feelings offer an impetus to establish an evaluative judgment, but the content of judgment is not equivalent with the impetus.

For relatively non-cognitive more temperamental themes that still vibe related to socionics, I prefer using dcnh. I get the sense, referencing that other thread where we discussed if Si really has to do with comfort, that it's better to associate seeking surroundings that are in harmony with one's needs to H than to Si. Better not to assume all Si-cognition types want comfort.

Viewing the 8 Si, Te, Ti, etc as types of consciousness rather than as information elements necessarily can be useful here: within a consciousness is often both an impetus and information pertaining to it (and certainly they can end up infused with one another).

[Myst]

I tend to think this whole impulsive vs not fits in more in the less cognitive aspects than in cognitive type. I'd say a good example of the difference here is looking at instinct v sensation as Jung put it. Sensation strikes me as more cognitive, instinct less so, albeit Jung did suggest they are linked (but not equivalent), much as feelings and his feeling function can be quite linked but far from equivalent.

Where instinct might offer the energetic impetus to move something, Se will tell you how to do so. Similarly, feelings offer an impetus to establish an evaluative judgment, but the content of judgment is not equivalent with the impetus.

For relatively non-cognitive more temperamental themes that still vibe related to socionics, I prefer using dcnh. I get the sense, referencing that other thread where we discussed if Si really has to do with comfort, that it's better to associate seeking surroundings that are in harmony with one's needs to H than to Si. Better not to assume all Si-cognition types want comfort.

Viewing the 8 Si, Te, Ti, etc as types of consciousness rather than as information elements necessarily can be useful here: within a consciousness is often both an impetus and information pertaining to it (and certainly they can end up infused with one another).

More on the conditions for the bolded to happen?

[lynn]

Aah, yes, definitely, I relate to the LSI one there very much. No question about that whatsoever, you could've described me personally there lol


I'm like the most concrete person you could meet, yeah. But that's just ST, I think

well, if you think LSI is a better fit ... the maneuvering part still sounds very SLE to me (but maybe LSI-Se too, i don't know about that)

Are you IEI-Ni or IEI-Fe, incidentally?

Yes I do like concrete examples too, so to that extent I definitely relate to your description.

hm, maybe subtypes play a role in this. i don't know about my subtype, however.
LSI's probably use concrete examples too, but conversations with them are never fluid. with some LSI's it's mostly me listening to them talking and with other LSI's it's mostly me talking. but there's rarely just an easy, effortless conversation going on. i mean compared to the almost effortless way of conversation i experienced with duals.

OK, I see. Well if you can find that article, link to it please.

i just realised that i mixed something which i read somewhere with my personal observation.
in the wikisocion description of extroverted ethics used by IEI, the text mentions: "The IEI will often say something that sounds very deep and heartfelt only to immediately realize the ridiculousness of what they are saying and make light of it. In this way, the IEI does not induce a formal separation between joking and being serious (like their mirror, the EIE), because they are less premeditated in expression in their natural state." (http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=IEI) it's just that i've often seen this too with SLE's, that they do not separate between joking and being serious in a similar way as IEIs.

[Myst]

well, if you think LSI is a better fit ... the maneuvering part still sounds very SLE to me (but maybe LSI-Se too, i don't know about that)

Not simply a "better fit" in that description of yours, it really fits as a glove, lol.

I can see how the maneuvering thingie sounds SLE-ish, I don't know if LSI-Se's typically relate to it. Hello @miss BabyDoll ?

But that's a superficial description I provided: "Chaos otherwise doesn't scare me, I get by somehow, I guess, by understanding things to be able to maneuver" and "As for maneuvering.. I do enjoy that, SLE or LSI no matter So with the chaos thingie I'm first annoyed at such stuff but then quickly switch into the maneuvering mode I enjoy being really Se in that mode or something."

So if you want to describe how you see SLEs doing it... they simply do trial and error?! Or what is it like?

How I do it, I always have at least a minimum amount of organization for my actions in my head. I can build more of it in my head on the move if I get more details in, if that's applicable. The actual actions may seem random to the observer if they do not know what sort of plan or understanding is behind them in my head. To me they almost always feel controlled to a satisfying degree and I am fine that way.

I'd like to hear your thoughts here too.

hm, maybe subtypes play a role in this. i don't know about my subtype, however.
LSI's probably use concrete examples too, but conversations with them are never fluid. with some LSI's it's mostly me listening to them talking and with other LSI's it's mostly me talking. but there's rarely just an easy, effortless conversation going on. i mean compared to the almost effortless way of conversation i experienced with duals.

OK, how I am with IEIs... either we have a hard time mantaining a convo because partner is being too reticent and I'm not willing to expand visibly more effort on keeping it going than the talking partner (out of principle) or I do talk a lot about logical stuff or whatever takes my mind and they listen and listen and never have a chance to interrupt, lol. Well actually I do regularly offer them chances for commenting or expressing their own thoughts but somehow those IEIs never seem to be able to say much then. And I'm kinda disappointed in those moments, tbh.

Let me add for a complete picture, whenever very interested/drawn to IEIs, I did try to hm, put in more effort to maintain convos - overriding the principle temporarily heh - but not with very good success, that is, it never felt fluid with the ones where I didn't happen to enter the mode of talking a lot about my thoughts. It's not terrible, better than with some other types but I definitely can't call it effortless. With some of them it ends up pretty good over time but just never like the dual.

With EIEs, eh, the whole deal is much simpler. Effortless, yes. That's the case once duality has started to transpire...

i just realised that i mixed something which i read somewhere with my personal observation.
in the wikisocion description of extroverted ethics used by IEI, the text mentions: "The IEI will often say something that sounds very deep and heartfelt only to immediately realize the ridiculousness of what they are saying and make light of it. In this way, the IEI does not induce a formal separation between joking and being serious (like their mirror, the EIE), because they are less premeditated in expression in their natural state." (http://www.wikisocion.org/en/index.php?title=IEI) it's just that i've often seen this too with SLE's, that they do not separate between joking and being serious in a similar way as IEIs.

Hm yeah in my questionnaire answers I was kinda like that with the jokes. I don't know why, I'm not often in that sort of joking mood. But, I don't think I mix this mood with default serious one in a random fashion much, that somehow sounds weird, the idea of switching so often, so I relate to LSI/EIE over SLE/IEI here. Definitely requires a mental switch is what is for sure.

[Creepy-]

Well, you're a nice introverted person!

[lynn]

So if you want to describe how you see SLEs doing it... they simply do trial and error?! Or what is it like?

How I do it, I always have at least a minimum amount of organization for my actions in my head. I can build more of it in my head on the move if I get more details in, if that's applicable. The actual actions may seem random to the observer if they do not know what sort of plan or understanding is behind them in my head. To me they almost always feel controlled to a satisfying degree and I am fine that way.

I'd like to hear your thoughts here too.

the SLE i was talking about (i still haven't figured out how to differentiate between subtypes accurately, so i don't know whether he's more on the Ti or Se side) didn't do it simply trial and error, but always devised a plan/categories/etc.. related to the goal. he also does it for everyday stuff every morning on his way to work, in order to "get things done". he is willing to abandon the plan/the steps and devise another one, when it doesn't prove to be useful enough, but still can be extremely stubborn if he has to change plans (concrete steps) when someone disagrees with his way of doing things. (always an issue of conflict) he's extremely quick in adapting to the situation at hand. whether this is a quick analysis of the discussion topics and creating a Ti mind map of it, e.g., or cutting a process into smaller steps to implement something. (so, Ti is used to acquire (theoretical) knowledge, to assess a situation on the one hand, and to use it as a way of putting something into action, on the other) i was so amazed at first, not being exposed to Se-Ti like that my whole life, like "!!!" ... "you can DO that?!" ... "everything makes sense" , lol! i think his use of Ti was way more visible/noticeable than the LSI's Ti, btw. it's just that many things ended up being trial & error, because a lot of his plans failed and he had to switch things or go into "maneuvering" mode (from the perspective of LSI who has everything planned out in his head. like literally, one year ahead, there's his plan and there is one right way of doing it and everyone else is a threat if they do not contribute to his plan, in a way he deems right > everything else "chaoticness"), issues of the SLE were basically: underestimating time needed, overestimating his own capabilities, being totally overworked, being stuck because something didn't work out > not because of Ti wasn't well developed, but because of weak Ni .. and further, competition, anger, hurt pride, overconfidence, zero conflict solving skills, paranoia, wasting time with unnecessary power play, trying to "challenge the authorities" (incredibly misguided and unnecessary in this specific case, says the IEI) i mean, the LSI was paranoid, too, with his anger about the ILE being a "liar", the SLE being "chaotic", everyone else "incompetent and dumb", the SEE being "too unpredictable" and doing stuff which he didn't calculate in advance (the SEE was often solving problems this way, in a gamma politics kind of way), the EIE trying to steal the lime light and get all the recognition for work he's never done, the IEI (not me, someone else) being too accepting and not offering a position in a conflict, etc. the SLE thought the LSI is too narrow minded, the SEE complained about his arrogance. ^^ the LSI's assessments were actually accurate most of the time, if not always, but sometimes LSI's are "too" right in a way. like "yes, but .. sometimes you just have to accept reality" ok, i wanted to write about Ti and ended somewhere completely else. i'm sorry. xD

OK, how I am with IEIs... either we have a hard time mantaining a convo because partner is being too reticent and I'm not willing to expand visibly more effort on keeping it going than the talking partner (out of principle) or I do talk a lot about logical stuff or whatever takes my mind and they listen and listen and never have a chance to interrupt, lol. Well actually I do regularly offer them chances for commenting or expressing their own thoughts but somehow those IEIs never seem to be able to say much then. And I'm kinda disappointed in those moments, tbh.

Let me add for a complete picture, whenever very interested/drawn to IEIs, I did try to hm, put in more effort to maintain convos - overriding the principle temporarily heh - but not with very good success, that is, it never felt fluid with the ones where I didn't happen to enter the mode of talking a lot about my thoughts. It's not terrible, better than with some other types but I definitely can't call it effortless. With some of them it ends up pretty good over time but just never like the dual.

With EIEs, eh, the whole deal is much simpler. Effortless, yes. That's the case once duality has started to transpire...

my favourite LSI's are the ones who sit quietly on the sidelines in a discussion and then suddenly emerge from the shadows to tell everyone how wrong they are and providing a well-thought out Ti explanation for that, very cool! especially if they are the only other beta type around. but in informal situations, (especially they don't know you) they are very withdrawn, serious and don't talk. i have to use a bit of Fe or ask something and they are the first to respond, are very helpful, kind, generous, extremely perceptive, but still may pretend at this point that you don't exist. (why?! ) with them it's usually me doing all the talking and throwing all the Fe at them i have to offer, but them not really responding in a way which keeps the conversation going. (i still like them, their withdrawnness reminds me of IEI's when they don't know you well)
the LSI i was talking about is a bit different and does all the talking (maybe due to him being sx/so? he's dualised as well.), where i'm just nodding and smiling and not having much to contribute. when i say something, it's not that interesting to him, like he expected something else. lol.

[Sol]

make video
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1096450

[Myst]

the SLE i was talking about (i still haven't figured out how to differentiate between subtypes accurately, so i don't know whether he's more on the Ti or Se side) didn't do it simply trial and error, but always devised a plan/categories/etc.. related to the goal.

Didn't you say you observed LSI do that, specifically contrasting it with SLE not doing this? Can you elaborate on this in that context.

he also does it for everyday stuff every morning on his way to work, in order to "get things done". he is willing to abandon the plan/the steps and devise another one, when it doesn't prove to be useful enough, but still can be extremely stubborn if he has to change plans (concrete steps) when someone disagrees with his way of doing things. (always an issue of conflict) he's extremely quick in adapting to the situation at hand. whether this is a quick analysis of the discussion topics and creating a Ti mind map of it, e.g., or cutting a process into smaller steps to implement something. (so, Ti is used to acquire (theoretical) knowledge, to assess a situation on the one hand, and to use it as a way of putting something into action, on the other) i was so amazed at first, not being exposed to Se-Ti like that my whole life, like "!!!" ... "you can DO that?!" ... "everything makes sense" , lol!

Lol you adoring your duals so much is nice ;p

Anyway I would guess Ti subtype for your SLE...

I relate to some of that there about the stubbornness though that's not what I'd call it.. it's simply that I need to see things for myself, I can't just accept what others say without me first seeing and understanding it for myself. Well also of course I do have the tendency that I believe myself before I'd believe others, lol.

I also change the plan if it didn't work, sure, but change of a situation can throw me for a loop sometimes before I readjust. I think that depends on how deep and committed I got in my plans. In simpler things that doesn't really apply and so then I don't mind making the necessary mental switch quickly to change my stuff and adapt.

Make sense?

i think his use of Ti was way more visible/noticeable than the LSI's Ti, btw.

How?

I was going to ask how the above stuff was different from the LSI's way of doing it, I guess this was one of the differences?

it's just that many things ended up being trial & error, because a lot of his plans failed and he had to switch things or go into "maneuvering" mode [(from the perspective of LSI who has everything planned out in his head. like literally, one year ahead, there's his plan and there is one right way of doing it and everyone else is a threat if they do not contribute to his plan, in a way he deems right > everything else "chaoticness")

The LSI plans never failed or what?

I will have to say I don't relate to always planning out every little detail. That's because in some cases it'd require too much research&thinking first and I prefer to just get moving and get the necessary details on the move to make the plans and the necessary understanding -deemed necessary by me, I know not everyone would be like that-, and well, me not waiting that much before starting, that's due to impatience, whatever that means in terms of type. In other cases I do plan out the details though, before I do anything, that's if I already have all the understanding necessary for it. And I enjoy that too. Was your LSI the Ti subtype?

issues of the SLE were basically: underestimating time needed, overestimating his own capabilities, being totally overworked, being stuck because something didn't work out > not because of Ti wasn't well developed, but because of weak Ni .. and further, competition, anger, hurt pride, overconfidence, zero conflict solving skills, paranoia, wasting time with unnecessary power play, trying to "challenge the authorities" (incredibly misguided and unnecessary in this specific case, says the IEI)

Hm, ok, what did he do if he got stuck because something didn't work out? Instantly going into trial and error mode to adapt to the situation? You got some anecdotes on that?

What sort of paranoia?

I don't relate to underestimating time needed, no, I'm actually quite good at that stuff. I don't worry about overestimating capabilities, it's simple: I want something then I get there somehow, how is that related to capabilities or whatever it is that you mean by that?

I do see myself in some of the other stuff, mainly the competitiveness-anger-pride-conflict solving line and the challenging of authorities, lol sure.

sometimes LSI's are "too" right in a way. like "yes, but .. sometimes you just have to accept reality" ok, i wanted to write about Ti and ended somewhere completely else. i'm sorry. xD

It's ok What does that "too right" thing look like in terms of not accepting reality?

my favourite LSI's are the ones who sit quietly on the sidelines in a discussion and then suddenly emerge from the shadows to tell everyone how wrong they are and providing a well-thought out Ti explanation for that, very cool! especially if they are the only other beta type around. but in informal situations, (especially they don't know you) they are very withdrawn, serious and don't talk. i have to use a bit of Fe or ask something and they are the first to respond, are very helpful, kind, generous, extremely perceptive, but still may pretend at this point that you don't exist. (why?! )

What makes you feel like they pretend you don't exist while they are kind to you and all that?

Otherwise I'm totally like you describe it here, just don't understand this one. Is it just the being withdrawn thing? Tbh I'm rather good at not really *noticing* people by default.. but it's not meant to be offensive.

with them it's usually me doing all the talking and throwing all the Fe at them i have to offer, but them not really responding in a way which keeps the conversation going. (i still like them, their withdrawnness reminds me of IEI's when they don't know you well)

Yeah, I know what you mean there, that's one of the reasons why it's not so smooth for me being with IEIs as with EIEs.

the LSI i was talking about is a bit different and does all the talking (maybe due to him being sx/so? he's dualised as well.), where i'm just nodding and smiling and not having much to contribute. when i say something, it's not that interesting to him, like he expected something else. lol.

Well as I said I can get into this mode of talking and then with IEIs I'm a bit disappointed yep lol I expect something else, I can try to explain this more if you want

make video
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...=1#post1096450

Sorry but not doing a video. If you have input without a video, do let me know, thanks.