In terms of socionics what does it mean to be enlightened?

[SlavaPHP]

In terms of socionics. .. what does it mean to be enlightened?

[SlavaPHP]

Conscious and subconscious merged?

[Contra]

Socionics doesn't have an answer for that.

[Pookie]

What does it mean to be enlightened in general? Get three buddhist monks in a room, and i bet they won't be able to explain it.

[Persephone]

Buy a SEI lamp.

[Aylen]

Conscious and subconscious merged?

That is like trying to use base and role function at the same time for most people. If you can do this and accurately interpret your own symbolism I would call it enlightened but not in socionics terms. In terms of consciousness and subconscious one is definitely more abstract but it might be surprising to realize which one is.

Role function

When a person is actively using his base function, the role function is essentially turned off. The two cannot both be "on" at the same time, because they represent two opposing approaches to similar things. An example of each opposing pair of elements are:


Si vs. Ni: a focus on one's environment and how it's affecting one's physical state vs. a focus on a situation's development over time and other underlying meanings


Se vs. Ne: active acquisition, control, and organization of visible territory and objects vs. active search for and development of invisible potential and emerging situations


Fi vs. Ti: evaluation according to personal sentiments vs. evaluation according to impersonal laws (mercy vs. justice)


Fe vs. Te: evaluation according to the people/social element involved vs. evaluation according to efficiency, effectiveness or objective reasoning


Because of this opposition, the more one gets carried away with one's base function, the more the role function is ignored or suppressed.
People are generally somewhat aware of this suppression and perceive it as a personal weakness that needs to be "worked on" in order to meet other people's expectations and achieve something in society. It is typical for people to periodically work on their role function in order to correct imbalances in their life and improve their weak areas. However, these attempts are generally sporadic and are forgotten as soon as the perceived problem begins to go away and the person once again becomes carried away with their usual lifestyle which is dominated by their base function. Thus, development of the role function is more like patching up leaks than building a complete, self-sufficient structure. Often individuals wish they could build up their role function and become "supermen", but an excessive focus on this unreachable goal brings disappointment, because the base function always wins anyways.

[Erlaad]

Just my own interpretation, but isn't enlightment (maybe not the strict Buddhist interpretation, but more in general) akin to dualization?

Both imply overcoming some (if not all) natural limitations by observing yourself and revealing some hidden talents / accepting yourself to who you are.

- Erl

[ryoka14]

Just my own interpretation, but isn't enlightment (maybe not the strict Buddhist interpretation, but more in general) akin to dualization?

Both imply overcoming some (if not all) natural limitations by observing yourself and revealing some hidden talents / accepting yourself to who you are.

- Erl

ehh i disagree

i think likening it to enlightenment just shows how this concept of "duality" is revered almost like the end all be all of life on these forums... it's actually far from enlightenment since duality encourages dependence on someone else.

enlightenment i think is 3 parts

1) recognizing that thoughts are the cause of selfego and thus suffering
2) ridding the self of suffering by disassociating thoughts from experience, essentially losing yourself
3) applying this complete awareness of the moment and lack of self into unconditional love for fellow man (or maybe this comes intrinsically, who knows)

enlightenment is basically understanding death without dying atleast thats my interpretation

[Erlaad]

ehh i disagree

i think likening it to enlightenment just shows how this concept of "duality" is revered almost like the end all be all of life on these forums... it's actually far from enlightenment since duality encourages dependence on someone else.

enlightenment i think is 3 parts

1) recognizing that thoughts are the cause of selfego and thus suffering
2) ridding the self of suffering by disassociating thoughts from experience, essentially losing yourself
3) applying this complete awareness of the moment and lack of self into unconditional love for fellow man (or maybe this comes intrinsically, who knows)

enlightenment is basically understanding death without dying atleast thats my interpretation

I have to say I was actually focusing on a broader sense of enlightment, as I mentioned, but you do have a point here. Altough I think dualization might be considered a step towards
enlightment: after all, it would be naive to assume that everybody reached enlightened transcendance through meditation alone... Or not?

- Erl

[ryoka14]

I have to say I was actually focusing on a broader sense of enlightment, as I mentioned, but you do have a point here. Altough I think dualization might be considered a step towards
enlightment: after all, it would be naive to assume that everybody reached enlightened transcendance through meditation alone... Or not?

- Erl

i think meditation isn't the only path in theory, but i really dont see how else you could do so.

if we look at meditation as simply a systematic and rigorous way of introspections to strip away the feeling that thought is connected to self. to really try to be "present", i feel like any distractions, especially in the realm of relationships would be counter productive.

thats why in a way a lot of people probably want enlightenment, but dont really understand that you have to give up everything to achieve it. do you want the life of a buddhist monk up in the mountains where they just sit and barely interact with the world?

contentment is still a state of mood, ego and most likely dependent on external factors eg duals . while enlightenment is more of a one higher level state of understanding, sometimes we achieve that for brief moments, but then thoughts come and distract us. i guess if you're enlightened you are constantly aware at all times and never let yourself get "lost in thought"

dunno though, its all too philosophical for me x;p, in the end we are all just experiencing reality in our own way. i think those before us who have achieved enlightenment try their best to make us understand in their own terms, which is why we get the broad teachings of "loving one another and to be present etc", but its like trying to teach it from the ground up, since our predisposition is to get all knotted up in our thoughts. takes a hell of a lot of disciplined introspection ie meditation to unknot that, and every time we aren't in that state we start tying more knots

[ConcreteButterfly]

Enlightenment is probably when there is no separation between the conscious and subconscious mind. Duals represent your subconscious mind, they are what you are not consciously aware of but that your body is. Likewise, you are what their body is aware of, but what their conscious minds ignore. So in a dual relationship, by identifying with the other person, you start to notice your own bodily instincts, that is, your subconscious mind, and through the dual you bring them into alignment with your conscious self.

Another way of saying it is that the dual balances out your chakras. Each chakra corresponds to a specific information element:

Root - Governs the right to exist, to be here and have things.
Sacral (sex) - The right to feel, to want things.
Solar plexus - The right to act, to resist volitional pressure, to have influence.
Heart - The right to love and be loved.
Throat - The right to communicate freely.
Third Eye - The right to see clearly, to make arrangements in space.
Crown - The right to know, to predict the future.
Prana, energy of movement - The right to change over time, to plan.

Having a dual around constantly feeds energy from their strong chakras into your weak ones, giving you the right corresponding to that chakra. Without a dual you have to maintain that right using your strong functions, so your chakra system becomes unbalanced, you become internally polarized and the conscious and subconscious split becomes sharper.

[Joy]

non-resistance, non-attachment, non-judgement

Relate that to Model A however you want to.

[The Ineffable]

Enlightenment about a subject is, in general, the realization of it, understanding it. I suppose, in respect to Socionics, enlightenment means to realize the principles of Model A and how they manifest in real people. Especially since Socionics is not just a behavioral inventory.

[bolong]

Enlightenment is probably when there is no separation between the conscious and subconscious mind. Duals represent your subconscious mind, they are what you are not consciously aware of but that your body is. Likewise, you are what their body is aware of, but what their conscious minds ignore. So in a dual relationship, by identifying with the other person, you start to notice your own bodily instincts, that is, your subconscious mind, and through the dual you bring them into alignment with your conscious self.

Another way of saying it is that the dual balances out your chakras. Each chakra corresponds to a specific information element:

Root - Governs the right to exist, to be here and have things.
Sacral (sex) - The right to feel, to want things.
Solar plexus - The right to act, to resist volitional pressure, to have influence.
Heart - The right to love and be loved.
Throat - The right to communicate freely.
Third Eye - The right to see clearly, to make arrangements in space.
Crown - The right to know, to predict the future.
Prana, energy of movement - The right to change over time, to plan.

Having a dual around constantly feeds energy from their strong chakras into your weak ones, giving you the right corresponding to that chakra. Without a dual you have to maintain that right using your strong functions, so your chakra system becomes unbalanced, you become internally polarized and the conscious and subconscious split becomes sharper.

I like this a lot, but there are only 7 chakras, and your description of dual functions sound more like conflicting.

But I'll still believe it, it feels holistic and satisfying

[SlavaPHP]

I thought Se was "having guts"

[SlavaPHP]

I think every person is capable of seeing all information spaces at the same time.... but we wear blinders to ignore what we have no control over

[SlavaPHP]

I think enlightenment is when we lose our blinders to the subconscious... at first it's scary but then you find a way to deal with both realms... imagine the blinders come off and you realize you where an ass hole prior, or no body wanted your spirit alive