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Thread: ILEs/ENTps and Fe activating "hidden agenda" function

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    Default ILEs/ENTps and Fe activating "hidden agenda" function

    what do you think of your Fe "hidden agenda"? how do you experience it? there are so many different descriptions of Fe HA on this forum that your input would be appreciated regarding which ones are closest to your experience.

    one thread mentioned that hidden agenda develops later in life, after the first quarter is over (25+). did you find this to be so? was there an age when you became more concerned with Fe?

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    I tend to reject things like timelines in so much as just as a lot of other common timelines drawn in nontypology stuff is just a guideline so is it here.

    I think an intuitive lead can, especially if intuitive subtype, be more balanced than one might think between seeking creative/HA, just that the creative is more tied to the base agenda, where HA is more just an energizing agent than one about seeking understanding/accumulating info.

    I think of it as the HA is the hidden rationally oriented extravert in the irrationally oriented extravert. Where the creative ends up being paired with the irrational program, the HA might be called the hidden rational program.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemical View Post
    I tend to reject things like timelines in so much as just as a lot of other common timelines drawn in nontypology stuff is just a guideline so is it here.

    I think an intuitive lead can, especially if intuitive subtype, be more balanced than one might think between seeking creative/HA, just that the creative is more tied to the base agenda, where HA is more just an energizing agent than one about seeking understanding/accumulating info.

    I think of it as the HA is the hidden rationally oriented extravert in the irrationally oriented extravert. Where the creative ends up being paired with the irrational program, the HA might be called the hidden rational program.
    u r ILE?

    y iz everything you write... so hard to understand (for me) ;____;

    u sure u r not LII... or ILI...

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    I don't think I'm ILE, just answering the question!

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    I joke a lot and try to have as much fun as possible instead of doing anything, but if I get to crazy it sucks and gets awkward Also smilies in all my text.... duh.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemical View Post
    I tend to reject things like timelines in so much as just as a lot of other common timelines drawn in nontypology stuff is just a guideline so is it here.
    What do timelines have to do with Fe hidden agenda?

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    I meant what age does what to a information element and that sort of stuff.

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    Quote Originally Posted by yeves View Post
    what do you think of your Fe "hidden agenda"? how do you experience it? there are so many different descriptions of Fe HA on this forum that your input would be appreciated regarding which ones are closest to your experience.

    one thread mentioned that hidden agenda develops later in life, after the first quarter is over (25+). did you find this to be so? was there an age when you became more concerned with Fe?
    well a lot of XLEs, being both Fi-PoLR and irrational, have antisocial tendencies. Basically we're big sociopathic assholes who go around telling everyone the truth "as we see it" (Ti) with little regard for political correctness, sympathy. morals, etc. There's a tension though, because we want to be able to say the "truth as we see it" while generally being in an environment which is emotionally congruent to us. Basically, we want to be able to share our "hard truths" while not being lynched for it.

    Fe, being an external function, is not really something you control per se. It's the extroverted function (besides perhaps Ne) that we think of the least as being "objective" due to semantic overlap, but it is objective in some sense. When everyone in a room is laughing at a joke, the emotional expression is being made manifest in physical reality. It's not the kind of solipsism you see with Fi, where things can be construed as hurtful to me. Either the joke was funny, and the people laughed, or it wasn't, and they didn't. The music is upbeat, so the people are dancing in an upbeat way in response. There's a somber mood at this funeral. Etc. It's a bit like wanting to be a room where the temperature is comfortable.

    Granted, if I am ILE, I am a weird ILE, in that I like loud music and fast cars and other seemingly Se stuff and can make aesthetic valuations which seems decidedly un-Fi-PolR. But I don't put a whole lot of faith in the system anymore, and the ILE "tireless debater" stereotype is the one that fits me the best, so I'll just roll with it for the sake of argument. I can't comment on what happens with Fe-HA after 25 because I am too young, but I can say the desire to be liked has been with me at least ever since I started making snarky jokes and derailing classes for group benefit at say, 14 or so.
    Last edited by Whoobie77; 09-13-2014 at 09:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemical View Post
    I meant what age does what to a information element and that sort of stuff.
    You really make no sense.

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    Quote Originally Posted by chemical View Post
    I tend to reject things like timelines in so much as just as a lot of other common timelines drawn in nontypology stuff is just a guideline so is it here.

    I think an intuitive lead can, especially if intuitive subtype, be more balanced than one might think between seeking creative/HA, just that the creative is more tied to the base agenda, where HA is more just an energizing agent than one about seeking understanding/accumulating info.

    I think of it as the HA is the hidden rationally oriented extravert in the irrationally oriented extravert. Where the creative ends up being paired with the irrational program, the HA might be called the hidden rational program.
    I think I'm probably only person that understood this lol.

    Anyways, HA is kind of overrated but it's there but knowing soconics kinda of opens up the perception. Ganin only gave a positive spin on it but it's kinda of in-discriminant, people can be receptive to negative aspects of their HA as well as positive aspects. Most people might only be honest to themselves about their HA once they're older unless they learn socionics as it's kinda of a agenda people might not want to admit to themselves initially.

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    Well, it is easy to tell from how Fi base see it as utterly unusable until proven wrong.
    Occasional goofy switch from another universe or just being calm otherwise and almost never seen as boiling from inside like you can see it from xLIs at times as worst counter example. As I saw it somewhere: undifferentiated feeling meaning no one should experience caustic feelings towards each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoobie77 View Post
    well a lot of XLEs, being both Fi-PoLR and irrational, have antisocial tendencies. Basically we're big sociopathic assholes who go around telling everyone the truth "as we see it" (Ti) with little regard for political correctness, sympathy. morals, etc. There's a tension though, because we want to be able to say the "truth as we see it" while generally being in an environment which is emotionally congruent to us. Basically, we want to be able to share our "hard truths" while not being lynched for it.

    Fe, being an external function, is not really something you control per se. It's the extroverted function (besides perhaps Ne) that we think of the least as being "objective" due to semantic overlap, but it is objective in some sense. When everyone in a room is laughing at a joke, the emotional expression is being made manifest in physical reality. It's not the kind of solipsism you see with Fi, where things can be construed as hurtful to me. Either the joke was funny, and the people laughed, or it wasn't, and they didn't. The music is upbeat, so the people are dancing in an upbeat way in response. There's a somber mood at this funeral. Etc. It's a bit like wanting to be a room where the temperature is comfortable.

    Granted, if I am ILE, I am a weird ILE, in that I like loud music and fast cars and other seemingly Se stuff and can make aesthetic valuations which seems decidedly un-Fi-PolR. But I don't put a whole lot of faith in the system anymore, and the ILE "tireless debater" stereotype is the one that fits me the best, so I'll just roll with it for the sake of argument. I can't comment on what happens with Fe-HA after 25 because I am too young, but I can say the desire to be liked has been with me at least ever since I started making snarky jokes and derailing classes for group benefit at say, 14 or so.
    I'm exactly the same. Exactly. Struggle with "the truth" vs "your feelings". I'm an excellent comedian, most who know me say I'm the funniest person they've ever met. I refuse to "make a podcast" or YouTube videos at their demands. I love really loud music (thx system at home + car audio + the best earbuds) and drive my WRX really fast/fun. I've really ramped up my Fe as a comedian to offset how much of an ass I can be when debating others or correcting flaws. As such, most people can't figure me out or understand me.

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    They say I would make excellent clown. Clown academy has been suggested but they took it back based on the reason that I don't need it.

    I have poor balance and walk as I'm not fully there. I bump into things quite often. This alone makes me funny and then there is my mouth filled with Fi PoLR goodness among other odd stuff which is not always ment to be comical. People have sometimes hard time at perceiving my seriously. They are also baffled how I manage to live my life. Thank god for those caregivers. LSI for example couldn't fathom why I partially coloured my eye glass lenses with permanent (accident) pen. It was an experiment to see when spots starts to interfere your vision.

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    Fe hidden agenda for me is a deep need to be accepted and to see that I'm being accepted. That people are sincerely smiling, laughing, telling me I'm (insert some positive characteristic). When those outward expressions don't match an individuals true feelings (or what they'll base whether they want a friendship, relationship, etc. on) I can be completely blindsided and truly hurt. Growing up (elementary school-high school) I was often a sucker for trying to get people to express positive emotions towards me and would really never understand why someone else wouldn't express positive emotions towards me. Now I'm much more ok with others not liking me, but still feel a deep need to have at least some people truly like me.

    Just like people with a Te hidden agenda appreciate "honest" expressed intellectual information, I appreciate honest "emotional" information. So like with humor a lot of Alpha comedians will say things that just aren't true but that one needs Ti to get. For me if someone does that with feelings (they outwardly express positive feelings towards me but internally hate me or want to manipulate me) I get thrown for a bad loop. As long as people are happy around me, and that that happiness is real and legitimate I'm happy. Sure the expressed emotion can be a little bit stronger than the (Fi) connection is, but if it's completely off I get deeply troubled and start questioning my relationships (all of them) more than I should.
    Suomea

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    I actually have very good mobile skills, just I'm not always paying attention to shit. Possible ILE, just looked into stuff today.

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    Default ILE HA

    How does the ILE's hidden HA look?
    I ask because I can see the SLE's HA but not the ILE's as much.
    “Until he extends the circle of his compassion to all living things, man will not himself find peace.”



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    Hidden agenda aka mobilizing.

    It is so it reaches out.

    Personally I say it is to use my creative to solve other people's unconventional () problems. Something that makes me mobilized.
    Measuring you right now

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    I feel like this really stands out in a classroom environment, the ILE loves a positive teaching environment and he quickly responds to people becoming frustrated or sad, especially if they're struggling with the material, and reaches out, taking time to carefully explain until the person's condition improves

    I feel like ILE make amazing 1 on 1 tutors for this reason as well, especially with struggling students

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    At times, ENTp seem to want mutually acceptable closure on issues but their open-ended natures often subvert this objective. They really try to walk in the other person's shoes or place the rationale of others above their own but usually fall short. When they try to engage with others, they end up lecturing. Under stress, they try to adapt rather than evade but in doing so can become unnaturally tenacious, myopic and reactive. They really want resolution and acceptance but usually end up swaying the outcomes because they generally consider their perceptions as more important than those of others so objectivity suffers when things become personal. And, personal outcomes often become too abstract or notional even for their own liking.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I'd like to open this topic up for discussion again.

    Recently I met an ILE who really put me through a mental exercise of "proving that mbti is different from socionics" he kept interrupting me while I was making some very legitimate conclusions and he kept throwing at me what the functions meant in the both systems however he could not reconcile the differences as I kept explaining to him. He made me so aggravated, so upset and was still persistently pushing the envelope that EII is really NiFe (I told him there was an error in mbti that it should really be FiNe). Anyway it ended with me being very upset and having to block him in order to get him to calm down. I felt as though there was no other way since he would not let out stubbornly or even say "that is quite possible". I felt like his was just "this is the information" so much so that he was so open ended. The more frustrated I felt the less he saw my frustration. Which was rather odd to me. I'm still trying to see if this had anything to do with HA.

    Anyone willing to share their opinion?
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whoobie77 View Post
    well a lot of XLEs, being both Fi-PoLR and irrational, have antisocial tendencies. Basically we're big sociopathic assholes who go around telling everyone the truth "as we see it" (Ti) with little regard for political correctness, sympathy. morals, etc. There's a tension though, because we want to be able to say the "truth as we see it" while generally being in an environment which is emotionally congruent to us. Basically, we want to be able to share our "hard truths" while not being lynched for it.

    Fe, being an external function, is not really something you control per se. It's the extroverted function (besides perhaps Ne) that we think of the least as being "objective" due to semantic overlap, but it is objective in some sense. When everyone in a room is laughing at a joke, the emotional expression is being made manifest in physical reality. It's not the kind of solipsism you see with Fi, where things can be construed as hurtful to me. Either the joke was funny, and the people laughed, or it wasn't, and they didn't. The music is upbeat, so the people are dancing in an upbeat way in response. There's a somber mood at this funeral. Etc. It's a bit like wanting to be a room where the temperature is comfortable.

    Granted, if I am ILE, I am a weird ILE, in that I like loud music and fast cars and other seemingly Se stuff and can make aesthetic valuations which seems decidedly un-Fi-PolR. But I don't put a whole lot of faith in the system anymore, and the ILE "tireless debater" stereotype is the one that fits me the best, so I'll just roll with it for the sake of argument. I can't comment on what happens with Fe-HA after 25 because I am too young, but I can say the desire to be liked has been with me at least ever since I started making snarky jokes and derailing classes for group benefit at say, 14 or so.
    This doesn't sound at all like ILE
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Hardly so. If there exists logical holes one has to fix those and make quite formal proofs.
    The hidden agenda shows up when ILE goes into depressive state and needs uplifting.
    Measuring you right now

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    From what I heard the hidden agenda get sort of mixed up with how the person generally function in 30+ years old. A creative sensor will incorporate a lot of that intuition in all parts of their lives. Same with ILEs HA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Beautiful sky View Post
    I'd like to open this topic up for discussion again.

    Recently I met an ILE who really put me through a mental exercise of "proving that mbti is different from socionics" he kept interrupting me while I was making some very legitimate conclusions and he kept throwing at me what the functions meant in the both systems however he could not reconcile the differences as I kept explaining to him. He made me so aggravated, so upset and was still persistently pushing the envelope that EII is really NiFe (I told him there was an error in mbti that it should really be FiNe). Anyway it ended with me being very upset and having to block him in order to get him to calm down. I felt as though there was no other way since he would not let out stubbornly or even say "that is quite possible". I felt like his was just "this is the information" so much so that he was so open ended. The more frustrated I felt the less he saw my frustration. Which was rather odd to me. I'm still trying to see if this had anything to do with HA.

    Anyone willing to share their opinion?
    Ironically, I had this kind of discussion with an INFj (who refused that FiNe was his actual TIM) and it ended in a similar way (I even stated FiNe is more rare than NiFe is). I think it's due to the Supervisor and Supervisee relation going on here. ENTp feels controlled or invalidated and dislikes it (Fe HA triggered), but if it's any consolation, you were correct.
    783-so/sp

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    I find that ILEs, whom I often like a lot, will get very insistent about their ideas, and I don’t care to argue with them very long because there is not always a way in to their logic. But I don’t take this very seriously. I don’t think of them as usually trying to attack or upset. It looks more like they are trying on an idea or viewpoint, and they will stay very lodged in it until they are ready for another one. It looks like this may be how they learn and grow? But I’m saying this from the outside, so any ILEs are ofc free to tell me I’ve got this wrong.

    The way they react to Fe is sometimes really overt ime, they will say, “Your face is always so expressive,” or “You always know what I want.” (I don’t, but I do read interpersonal scenarios carefully.) I am kind of the same with Se leads—certain things they do I will marvel at, it impresses me and is a bit magical.

    Meanwhile, Fi is just a drag to them. For an ILE to offer their ideas to you only for you to be upset by them emotionally sounds entirely terrible. It’s better not to take most of what an ILE says personally, and reserve any real upset for when they have stepped totally over a line and need to know that. And then it’s not “you hurt me,” which is hard for them to hear, but “this is just not a thing you can do or say. It doesn’t work that way.”

    This is all how it looks from the POV of someone who likes ILEs but has only Fe and no Si for them. I assume it’s distorted somewhat.
    LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”

    Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”

    LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”

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    ILEs are passionate about their interests and projects and usually try to find some way to get others interested in them too - the more the merrier. The stereotypical "science communicator" like Vsauce or Neil DeGrasse Tyson (both ILE) is one example. The train of thought seems to be, "I benefited from this / thought this was cool so maybe you will too." If this information has a positive practical impact on people's lives it could be seen as the true fulfillment of the Si suggestive function, as mediated through Fe.

    They can also take the role of social organizer though this seems more difficult for them since it's closer to Si on the Si-Ne spectrum.

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