Te/Ti Question

[Ch4r]

So, I'm still trying to determine my type, having narrowed it down to ENTp, ENTj, and INTp as far as I'm concerned, and if anyone has any ideas on it, I'd love to hear them, but this isn't another "What's My Type?" thread. The reason I mentioned this is that I'm trying to figure out whether I use certain functions more than others, and I'm currently contrasting Te to Ti.

I've found a lot of stuff on the differences between these two functions via phpBB's search function, but I'm still undecided. Although I've found plenty about Ti being "structural logic", Te being "business logic", the difference between them as thought processes, etc, etc, I have what hopefully is a pretty simple question that I haven't found an answer for:

Can anyone explain the practical, observable differences between types that use more Te than Ti and types that use more Ti than Te?

Thanks in advance.

[Expat]

I think you should look at the whole Quadra values of Alpha and Gamma and not just whether you are > or > .

[stevENTj]

Ti types are the hacks and lab boffins that come up with new concepts, new ideas, and new ways of doing things. Te types are the ones that can compare and contrast those new concepts with other ideas or things already out there and will be able to tell you how useful it really is, if at all.

Ti types invent things.
Te types critique the inventions.

A Ti type believes the concept is more important than its actual usefulness.
A Te type believes something's usefulness comes first, no matter how cool the concept is.


There is a new product out with the latest and greatest technologies. It is cutting edge, has lots of marketing buzz words, and is "teh hawtness". Ti types will love this stuff. BUT... it may be unreliable, it may be very costly to produce, it may not even perform any better than other existing technologies, and therefore it is not truly "useful". Te types will tend to go for what actually works better.

I can name some real world examples if that would help.

[FDG]

Briefly for a distinction between INTp/ENTj and ENTp:

Static or Dynamic.

How do you perceive your life? Do you try to "schedule" it somehow by naturally creating instants? For example now at the computer, then eating etc and you have images of the single instances, seprated in your mind?

Or is it more a free-flowing state? (If somebody can provide a dynamic state of mind explanation, welcomed)

Oh Steveentj, thanks for the stereotypes to you, too. An invetion can't be jizz if it serves nothing.

[stevENTj]

Oh Steveentj, thanks for the stereotypes to you, too. An invetion can't be jizz if it serves nothing.

And thank YOU for your near continual single line "you're stupid" rebuttals to nearly anything I say without even understanding what exactly I'm saying and continually missing the point. You could have asked for examples or clarification, but you're all too eager to jump to the "you're stupid" line. I won't bother wasting my time on you giving you the "details" because as you've stated in the past, those mean nothing to you. Which is why you keep missing the point!

[FDG]

Everything you say seems to be imbued with value judgements , like right now "Ti likes jizz that looks c00l but does nothing" "Te is th3 r34l sh1t that produces result".

[anndelise]

*cracks her whip*

Down boys! Down!

This is heading into an area that'll have to be .... *drum booms*...moderated.

Can ya'll get back to the subject...which was NOT each other???

[stevENTj]

Everything you say seems to be imbued with value judgements , like right now "Ti likes jizz that looks c00l but does nothing" "Te is th3 r34l sh1t that produces result".

Right, exactly. "SEEMS TO BE" - not "actually is".

Debate with you just goes in circles. Haven't we been here before?

http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...r=asc&start=15

I don't suppress anything really, although you seem to think I do.

Kay, it seemed like you did from your own words eh. It's the only way I could have captured it, too, since I do not know you personally.

Once again, that is just your seriously flawed and distorted perception of me leading you to conclusions that just aren't true based on little snippets of posts, or now reading between the lines where nothing was written. Same shit, different day.

[FDG]

Looks like you're so used to being ordered around by cathegorical statements that you can't even understand when an uncertainity is added for mere rethorical purposes. Keep up the good work. I ain't gonna give you the benefit of the doubt anymore then.

Now tell me why my supposed perception is flawed. You clearly wrote that.

[stevENTj]

Looks like you're so used to being ordered around by cathegorical statements that you can't even understand when an uncertainity is added for mere rethorical purposes. Keep up the good work. I ain't gonna give you the benefit of the doubt anymore then.

In other words, don't take anything you say seriously. Got it.

Now tell me why my supposed perception is flawed. You clearly wrote that.

That requires giving details, but...

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5469

You do no good by giving me the details. It's the attitude I pick up from you that I don't like.

So why bother?

[Gilly]

Looks like you're so used to being ordered around by cathegorical statements that you can't even understand when an uncertainity is added for mere rethorical purposes. Keep up the good work. I ain't gonna give you the benefit of the doubt anymore then.

God it's SO funny to see YOU say that.

[detail]

There is a new product out with the latest and greatest technologies. It is cutting edge, has lots of marketing buzz words, and is "teh hawtness". Ti types will love this stuff. BUT... it may be unreliable, it may be very costly to produce, it may not even perform any better than other existing technologies, and therefore it is not truly "useful". Te types will tend to go for what actually works better.

But aren't you saying that types are "victims" of the argumentum ad novitatem fallacy? I know you may mean something else though only right now it reads pretty much as i described and based on that, i would be , which is not the case. That's why it sounds like a misattribution of negative traits to an "opposite" party. It seems to be due to a generalization that may have been a little too hasty:

A Ti type believes the concept is more important than its actual usefulness.
A Te type believes something's usefulness comes first, no matter how cool the concept is.

You are right but only theoretically, as you didn't consider what happens when a type plays with the concept of "usefulness over concept in real life situations" and starts to think this concept is important. It may sound far fetched, but in real life, most people have integrated this basic concept even though they still like "mental masturbation". You actually prefered the concept of over it's real life "look" in your description. Note that you are not the first to embrace irony in such a way. Anyways, you clearly stated you could explain what you meant, so basically that's what i was questionning in the first place cause you didn't sound like you were trying to be an ass or something.

On a sidenote, i mentionned in the past that introverted judging functions have to "transcend themselves" in order to exploit their full potential and to be profitable to most. The integration of practical concepts such as the one described above for is a good example of what i meant by that.

[Slava]

Te makes benefit analysis calculations fast and knows when to cut losses and such and is confident in talking about various algorithms that can be applied to life.

Ti does the same thing but doesnt apply it to external things and works on internal metaphysical objects.

Te people are usually good at designing databases and normalizing the tables.

Ti people are usually better at creating new algorithms that havent existed.

[FDG]

As I said, the description is crappy. End of story.

[stevENTj]

There is a new product out with the latest and greatest technologies. It is cutting edge, has lots of marketing buzz words, and is "teh hawtness". Ti types will love this stuff. BUT... it may be unreliable, it may be very costly to produce, it may not even perform any better than other existing technologies, and therefore it is not truly "useful". Te types will tend to go for what actually works better.

But aren't you saying that types are "victims" of the argumentum ad novitatem fallacy? I know you may mean something else though only right now it reads pretty much as i described and based on that, i would be , which is not the case. That's why it sounds like a misattribution of negative traits to an "opposite" party. It seems to be due to a generalization that may have been a little too hasty:

Nobody is a victim of anybody really, although types can definitely feel victimized by types in my line of work. I've been at both ends of the table, but more on that later.

A Ti type believes the concept is more important than its actual usefulness.
A Te type believes something's usefulness comes first, no matter how cool the concept is.

You are right but only theoretically, as you didn't consider what happens when a type plays with the concept of "usefulness over concept in real life situations" and starts to think this concept is important. It may sound far fetched, but in real life, most people have integrated this basic concept even though they still like "mental masturbation".

Maybe that's "forced " by a type. You can flip that around too, when you have a Te type trying to do work that's more in the Ti type's realm. Been there and done that too. You can use both, but one of them will be more natural, so which is it?

You actually prefered the concept of over it's real life "look" in your description. Note that you are not the first to embrace irony in such a way.

Only I'm not actually embracing it. I stated it the way I did for contrast. I'll have to explain my perspective more later. But being a Te type, obviously I'm biased towards Te, not Ti. It doesn't mean that Ti is worthless though. Gamma NT's would have nothing to critique or build a business around if it wasn't for Alpha NT boffins and wizards coming up with neat ideas to potentially sell to people. My perspective is Ti vs Te in the engineering and business world, but more later...

[Logos]

Nobody is a victim of anybody really, although types can definitely feel victimized by types in my line of work. I've been at both ends of the table, but more on that later.

It doesn't change the fact that you constructed the description with a more negative perception than you did with the description.

Your description essentially came off as
- : idealistic and impractical with no sense of usefulness
- : practical and useful and not weighed down by flights of fancy

Only I'm not actually embracing it. I stated it the way I did for contrast. I'll have to explain my perspective more later. But being a Te type, obviously I'm biased towards Te, not Ti. It doesn't mean that Ti is worthless though.

That was one heck of a contrast. You may not think that Ti is worthless, but you certainly make it sound worthless and impractical though, which is why most of the Alpha NTs didn't identify with your description.

Gamma NT's would have nothing to critique or build a business around if it wasn't for Alpha NT boffins and wizards coming up with neat ideas to potentially sell to people. My perspective is Ti vs Te in the engineering and business world, but more later...

Well that's better. Alpha NTs are only around for you to critique and get rich off of.

[Slava]

Nobody is a victim of anybody really, although types can definitely feel victimized by types in my line of work. I've been at both ends of the table, but more on that later.

It doesn't change the fact that you constructed the description with a more negative perception than you did with the description.

Your description essentially came off as
- : idealistic and impractical with no sense of usefulness
- : practical and useful and not weighed down by flights of fancy

Only I'm not actually embracing it. I stated it the way I did for contrast. I'll have to explain my perspective more later. But being a Te type, obviously I'm biased towards Te, not Ti. It doesn't mean that Ti is worthless though.

That was one heck of a contrast. You may not think that Ti is worthless, but you certainly make it sound worthless and impractical though, which is why most of the Alpha NTs didn't identify with your description.

Gamma NT's would have nothing to critique or build a business around if it wasn't for Alpha NT boffins and wizards coming up with neat ideas to potentially sell to people. My perspective is Ti vs Te in the engineering and business world, but more later...

Well that's better. Alpha NTs are only around for you to critique and get rich off of.

I've actually worked with a few ENTj's and INTp's in the past who told me we could make a lot of money. Turns out I did a lot of work and finished it exactly to spec, and their part fell through. I coded a program once that generated bar codes for driver licenses. An ENTj told me... hey we can sell this to fake ID places and head shops and make lots of money. I was like I don;t know about that, they dont need to put that much detail in specific things like this when a non custom barcode also works. The ENTj kept telling me I need to think big and what not. So I gave him the software, later that night he comes back and doesn;t mention anything. I ask him well did you sell any, and he tries to avoid the subject. So when you think of Ti and Te... please don't say that Te is practical and Ti isn't. It's just not true.

[Ch4r]

Nice to wake up and have two pages of replies.

I think you should look at the whole Quadra values of Alpha and Gamma and not just whether you are Introverted Thinking > Extraverted Thinking or Extraverted Thinking > Introverted Thinking .

Hmm... I've read several different things about the quadras, most recently this, and so far I haven't found any descrption I really identify with. If I had to choose one, I'd probably go with Alpha, but not by much. D'you have any articles or posts you recommend?

Ti types invent things.
Te types critique the inventions.

A Ti type believes the concept is more important than its actual usefulness.
A Te type believes something's usefulness comes first, no matter how cool the concept is.

Judging by this, I'm a Te type, but it sounds like everyone else here is too... ;\

I can name some real world examples if that would help.

I'm all ears!

Briefly for a distinction between INTp/ENTj and ENTp:

Static or Dynamic.

How do you perceive your life? Do you try to "schedule" it somehow by naturally creating instants? For example now at the computer, then eating etc and you have images of the single instances, seprated in your mind?

Or is it more a free-flowing state? (If somebody can provide a dynamic state of mind explanation, welcomed)

Hmm... actually, I could see my perception of my schedule being described either way, but for now I'll pick the second option. Which one corresponds to which type?

Te makes benefit analysis calculations fast and knows when to cut losses and such and is confident in talking about various algorithms that can be applied to life.

Ti does the same thing but doesnt apply it to external things and works on internal metaphysical objects.

Te people are usually good at designing databases and normalizing the tables.

Ti people are usually better at creating new algorithms that havent existed.

Hmm... I think I'd probably have to go with Te here, although I'm not sure yet.

It doesn't change the fact that you constructed the Introverted Thinking description with a more negative perception than you did with the Extraverted Thinking description.

Your description essentially came off as
- Introverted Thinking: idealistic and impractical with no sense of usefulness
- Extraverted Thinking: practical and useful and not weighed down by flights of fancy

Actually, that's not how I understood it. It sounded like he meant:

- : more interested in concepts
- : more interested in the implementation and use of objects/concepts

I'm no one to decide whether that's an accurate description of the difference between Ti and Te, but I can see the advantages and disadvantages of both the Ti and the Te description using the above interpretation of the definitions he provided.

[stevENTj]

It doesn't change the fact that you constructed the description with a more negative perception than you did with the description.

Your description essentially came off as
- : idealistic and impractical with no sense of usefulness
- : practical and useful and not weighed down by flights of fancy

Subjective interpretations are not facts, they're opinions. I acknowledged the fact that Alphas can come up with a lot of truly neat stuff that boggles the mind that I know I never would have thought of in a million years personally. But I also pointed out that a lot of these concepts and ideas are far less useful in the real world than they are in the laboratory. Just because something looks great on paper doesn't mean it will be a success.

That was one heck of a contrast. You may not think that Ti is worthless, but you certainly make it sound worthless and impractical though, which is why most of the Alpha NTs didn't identify with your description.

Well that's better. Alpha NTs are only around for you to critique and get rich off of.

That's fair enough. If you feel my description is biased then just come up with a better one instead of whining and making stereotypical bullshit comments and then rolling your eyes at me.

Gamma NT's would not have much to do with a product based business if it wasn't for inventive Alpha NT's coming up with neat stuff to sell in the first place. Gamma's do not invent stuff, Alphas do. And Alpha NT's likely wouldn't have a job to keep on doing that if it wasn't for the guidance of Gamma NT's on what will work or not work, and what will sell or not sell in the marketplace, thus keeping the business going. The business will fail if the Gammas misjudge the market or the usefulness of concepts. And the business will also fail if Alphas fail to deliver a concept in the form of a finished product that actually works they way they say it will work. The two are dependent on each other. There is a role for all of the Quadras in a business such as this, and to imply (that I think) that one is more or less valuable than the other is complete nonsense. And I haven't even gotten to Betas and Deltas yet. There are important roles for them too.

[Jonathan]

Two things to keep in mind here....
1) There are different interpretations of Socionics. I'm not sure all would agree with the statements that Gammas never invent things, etc. The more you read this forum, the more you'll see that nobody really agrees over these things.
2) Also, INTp and ENTp aren't dominant Ti or Te, so comparing Ti vs. Te in itself may not be the answer if you're one of those types.

[Logos]

Subjective interpretations are not facts, they're opinions.

True. In that case, allow me to rephrase my original statement. "Your description of the and functions was incredibly lacking in any desirable objectivity which created a scenario in which even the stereotypical Alpha NTs identified much more strongly with the ."

I acknowledged the fact that Alphas can come up with a lot of truly neat stuff that boggles the mind that I know I never would have thought of in a million years personally.

does not strictly apply to Alpha NTs alone, which seems to whom most of your statements seem directed. And even then as said prior, based on your description, just about every one has declared themselves as . The other part of the problem is that you are equating "neat stuff" and ideas with when it is probably closer to . is more concerned with internalized logic, order, and analysis.

But I also pointed out that a lot of these concepts and ideas are far less useful in the real world than they are in the laboratory. Just because something looks great on paper doesn't mean it will be a success.

I'm pretty sure that most people would acknowledge that. And just because a thinks that it will be a success in the real world doesn't mean that it will. For some reason, you seem to think that to be a Gamma is to be endowed with god-given insight into what will and will not work in the business world, when that is not necessarily the case.

That's fair enough. If you feel my description is biased then just come up with a better one instead of whining and making stereotypical bullshit comments and then rolling your eyes at me.

Does anyone else see the irony here?

: "the logic of actions " - is responsible for efficiency of actions, understanding of technological processes, the organization of work. And
- events (what, how, where), activity, behavior, algorithms
: "the structural logic " - is responsible for understanding of logic communications and structures, classification, ordering, the analysis, logic explanations and proofs. And...
- systems of rules, hierarchies, comparisons of quantifiable properties, logical judgments

How you got poor judgment, "neat stuff," concepts and ideas out of that I'll never know.

Gamma's do not invent stuff, Alphas do.

If you don't mind me asking, how did you arrive at this reasoning? This seems to be quite an assertion of fact and lacking in the "objective reasoning" that is supposed to characterize ENTjs.

Gamma NT's would not have much to do with a product based business if it wasn't for inventive Alpha NT's coming up with neat stuff to sell in the first place. Gamma's do not invent stuff, Alphas do. And Alpha NT's likely wouldn't have a job to keep on doing that if it wasn't for the guidance of Gamma NT's on what will work or not work, and what will sell or not sell in the marketplace, thus keeping the business going. The business will fail if the Gammas misjudge the market or the usefulness of concepts. And the business will also fail if Alphas fail to deliver a concept in the form of a finished product that actually works they way they say it will work. The two are dependent on each other. There is a role for all of the Quadras in a business such as this, and to imply (that I think) that one is more or less valuable than the other is complete nonsense. And I haven't even gotten to Betas and Deltas yet. There are important roles for them too.

Most of what you said isn't really type related; this is mostly just basic business practices which can be learned by any type with an appropriate business education. Don't tell me that ENTjs (Gammas) are the only types with MBAs? You're again equating being an ENTj with your role as manager over a business and assuming that most of your engineers are Alpha NTs, when that is not necessarily the case. This is poor reasoning. If an INTj or an ENTp was a business manager higher than you in the chain of command, wouldn't they also be telling you what would and wouldn't work with their oh so brilliant guidance? You are aalso ssigning quadras to assumed roles and functions in your business that are not necessarily there. And your statement that Alpha NTs somehow owe their livelihood to the glorious business judgment of Gamma NTs is rather demeaning and would be an insult to anyone's sense of judgment or rationality (not in the Socionics sense).

[stevENTj]

Most of what you said isn't really type related; this is mostly just basic business practices which can be learned by any type with an appropriate business education. Don't tell me that ENTjs (Gammas) are the only types with MBAs? You're again equating being an ENTj with your role as manager over a business and assuming that most of your engineers are Alpha NTs, when that is not necessarily the case. This is poor reasoning. If an INTj or an ENTp was a business manager higher than you in the chain of command, wouldn't they also be telling you what would and wouldn't work with their oh so brilliant guidance? You are aalso ssigning quadras to assumed roles and functions in your business that are not necessarily there. And your statement that Alpha NTs somehow owe their livelihood to the glorious business judgment of Gamma NTs is rather demeaning and would be an insult to anyone's sense of judgment or rationality (not in the Socionics sense).

You are completely full of crap and I can't even take you the least bit seriously anymore. All you are doing here is just making stereotypical assumptions about everything, jumping to conclusions, and putting words in my mouth. You have no clue who I am, what I do, what my actual role even is, what my background is, or what other types of people I have even worked with. You have no ability whatsoever to judge that my reasoning was "bad" when you have no ability whatsoever to prove that your assertions are even true in the first place. (they're not, and I don't feel like wasting anymore time talking to a brick wall)

There's little point in attempting to carry this discussion any further.

kthxbye

[Logos]

For someone who claims to be an ENTj, you are easily unhinged.

You have no ability whatsoever to judge that my reasoning was "bad" when you have no ability whatsoever to prove that your assertions are even true in the first place.

What assertions? My post was merely an analysis of your reasoning. Look, I'm sorry for the assumptions, but the language of your text was that of one who was in a position of authority to critique the work of engineers who you equate as being Alpha NTs.

although types can definitely feel victimized by types in my line of work.

Gamma NT's would have nothing to critique or build a business around if it wasn't for Alpha NT boffins and wizards coming up with neat ideas to potentially sell to people. My perspective is Ti vs Te in the engineering and business world, but more later...

Gamma NT's would not have much to do with a product based business if it wasn't for inventive Alpha NT's coming up with neat stuff to sell in the first place. Gamma's do not invent stuff, Alphas do. And Alpha NT's likely wouldn't have a job to keep on doing that if it wasn't for the guidance of Gamma NT's on what will work or not work, and what will sell or not sell in the marketplace, thus keeping the business going. The business will fail if the Gammas misjudge the market or the usefulness of concepts. And the business will also fail if Alphas fail to deliver a concept in the form of a finished product that actually works they way they say it will work. The two are dependent on each other. There is a role for all of the Quadras in a business such as this, and to imply (that I think) that one is more or less valuable than the other is complete nonsense. And I haven't even gotten to Betas and Deltas yet. There are important roles for them too.

The texts imply a higher ranking of the Gamma NT in the business hierarchy than the Alpha NT. This would put you, an ENTj of the Gamma quadra, into a managerial, marketing or consulting role.

[FDG]

Most of what you said isn't really type related; this is mostly just basic business practices which can be learned by any type with an appropriate business education. Don't tell me that ENTjs (Gammas) are the only types with MBAs? You're again equating being an ENTj with your role as manager over a business and assuming that most of your engineers are Alpha NTs, when that is not necessarily the case. This is poor reasoning. If an INTj or an ENTp was a business manager higher than you in the chain of command, wouldn't they also be telling you what would and wouldn't work with their oh so brilliant guidance? You are aalso ssigning quadras to assumed roles and functions in your business that are not necessarily there. And your statement that Alpha NTs somehow owe their livelihood to the glorious business judgment of Gamma NTs is rather demeaning and would be an insult to anyone's sense of judgment or rationality (not in the Socionics sense).

You are completely full of crap and I can't even take you the least bit seriously anymore. All you are doing here is just making stereotypical assumptions about everything

This is actually what you have done all throughout this thread. From the first post of yours, I proposed a PRACTICAL solution in order to determine his type, whereas YOU WENT IMMEDIATLY ON WITH STEREOTYPICAL DIFFERENCES BETWEEN TI AND TE. Theorethical ones, moreover!

HOW IS this for a counter-argument? I'm sure now you'll claim I can't see the big picture: if is anything like the one you see, I'm glad not to.

Of course, half post of yours are also riddled with crap like "You don't know who I am, I worked for 10 big firms I have nice car nice marriage". This means ab-so-lu-te-ly nothing. Get it into your head.

[FDG]

Alpha NT's likely wouldn't have a job to keep on doing that if it wasn't for the guidance of Gamma NT's

Pleeeeeeease.

[Ch4r]

Alpha NT's likely wouldn't have a job to keep on doing that if it wasn't for the guidance of Gamma NT's

Pleeeeeeease.

Hey,
I'm not going to get involved in this argument, but which of the answers to your question corresponds to which type? You left me hanging! :wink:

[FDG]

Alpha NT's likely wouldn't have a job to keep on doing that if it wasn't for the guidance of Gamma NT's

Pleeeeeeease.

Hey,
I'm not going to get involved in this argument, but which of the answers to your question corresponds to which type? You left me hanging! :wink:

Ah yeah; static is Ti types, dynamic is Te types!

[Ch4r]

Alpha NT's likely wouldn't have a job to keep on doing that if it wasn't for the guidance of Gamma NT's

Pleeeeeeease.

Hey,
I'm not going to get involved in this argument, but which of the answers to your question corresponds to which type? You left me hanging! :wink:

Ah yeah; static is Ti types, dynamic is Te types!

Cool, thanks. Out of curiosity, does this have to do with the differences between Te/Ti or something else?