Talent and Doubt

[FDG]

I've got some friends who have this attitude, they're among the most competent of my aquintances. I'm much too scared to test myself compared to others.

Eheh, I don't test myself in everything, just in whatever kind of thing I have already invested a decent amount of time...otherwise, as you say, it can be scary / discouraging.

[lemontrees]

i feel ambivalent about not having a calling of some kind. i wish i did but i'm skeptical that such a thing actually exists and that other people who have one don't just convince themselves that their arbitrary choices have been the best possible. i dunno, i put effort into the things that require it and hope that it pays off and moves me forward. "personal development" is such a vague and slow moving thing that investing self worth in it is stressful and i don't really think of it that way. i don't have some kind of lifetime goal to compare my current progress to, so i'm more inclined to compare where i am now to things like where my parents were or where i would likely be if i had made different choices. and from that frame of reference i'm not dissapointed. there's always an awareness that i'm far from reaching some sort of apex but i can't visualize what that would look like anyway.

sometimes I wonder if our arbitrary choices are like... the guy you meet who you think "could work" and then after all the time and investment you put into the relationship it's love. but it doesn't make the devotion less real, or something.

[suedehead]

I guess I feel kind of nihilistic about it. I pick a time out of the day and do it, just because it's there and I decided I wanted to at some point. It's enjoyable and it doesn't take up that much of my time. How does anyone get good at anything?

[FDG]

i feel ambivalent about not having a calling of some kind. i wish i did but i'm skeptical that such a thing actually exists and that other people who have one don't just convince themselves that their arbitrary choices have been the best possible.

Perhaps talking about a "calling" is way too much, but there's surely a thing like "something you are naturally better at than many people" and if you happen to actually like it then...it could be classified as a calling. (F.e. the first time I went to an uphill cycling competition in a small town I was 4th over 60 people even though I went there just because I was convinced by a friend and had never cycled competitively at the time. The first time I tried playing soccer I was just average compared to my peers, and I didn't get much better than that).

[Capitalist Pig]

hahaha yes! But how do you know if you're an idiot or a competent person?

You don't. The people who think they are greater than they are commit an error of self-perception, whereas the people who are truly talented commit an error in their external evaluations of others. They assume that because something is known to them, it is common knowledge among all. That's why they feel like they are always a step behind everyone else.

As well, people who hold themselves to a high standard or set of expectations, tend to focus on their mistakes and other negative points and undermine their accomplishments. Idiots are quick to write off errors by making excuses or even pretending they never happened at all. They're easily spotted by an utter lack of humility. The most extreme example might be a narcissist.

An intelligent person might be able to take comfort from a list of achievements and positive feedback by others. I think that is when you figure out you're on to something.

[Reficulris]

You don't. The people who think they are greater than they are commit an error of self-perception, whereas the people who are truly talented commit an error in their external evaluations of others. They assume that because something is known to them, it is common knowledge among all. That's why they feel like they are always a step behind everyone else.

As well, people who hold themselves to a high standard or set of expectations, tend to focus on their mistakes and other negative points and undermine their accomplishments. Idiots are quick to write off errors by making excuses or even pretending they never happened at all. They're easily spotted by an utter lack of humility. The most extreme example might be a narcissist.

An intelligent person might be able to take comfort from a list of achievements and positive feedback by others. I think that is when you figure out you're on to something.

As someone who was once diagnosed with NPD partial developemental problems (now 10 years ago and treated, don't worry, it's only sexual transmitable) this is extremely disconcerning; you mean I AM an idiot? ;-)

[Amber]

As someone who was once diagnosed with NPD partial developemental problems (now 10 years ago and treated, don't worry, it's only sexual transmitable) this is extremely disconcerning; you mean I AM an idiot? ;-)

r u kidding.
so we are all here just ur narcissistic supply huh. You can hardly relate to ppl as if they weren't annexes of ur ego...? That's real narcissism. Someone (qualified enough, ofc) implies you may not be as good as u think and u burst in rage or cut them out of ur life? u cannot tolerate any kind of less-than-positive feedback ...?

[Reficulris]

r u kidding.
so we are all here just ur narcissistic supply huh. You can hardly relate to ppl as if they weren't annexes of ur ego...? That's real narcissism. Someone (qualified enough, ofc) implies you may not be as good as u think and u burst in rage or cut them out of ur life? u cannot tolerate any kind of less-than-positive feedback ...?

WHAT ARE YOU IMPLYING???!?!?!? CAN YOU NOT SEE HOW HARD MY LIFE IS! I:M JUST MISUNDASTOOD! YOU LOWLIFE STUPID SOMETHING SOMETHING ARRRR I:LL PUT YOU ON IGNORE AND KILL YOU IN UR SLEEP!!!

^^

I know what narcicism is, did read the definition back than, didn't agree that it applied to me, but than, no narcicist would agree ^^

This was when i was 16-17 which is why it wasn't the official diagnosis. I'm cured now, no worries (or am i? If i think i am i might not be)

[Capitalist Pig]

As someone who was once diagnosed with NPD partial developemental problems (now 10 years ago and treated, don't worry, it's only sexual transmitable) this is extremely disconcerning; you mean I AM an idiot? ;-)

Perhaps you are.

[Amber]

Mm, @capitalistpig linked to a brief explanation of the Dunning-Kruger effect. It's not presupposed to exclude people in any given profession, although it could be possible that in highly structured environments, the DK effect is less prevalent. It would have to be investigated. I also note that I assume Germany on the whole to have stronger, clearer social structures and rewards than the U.S. does, based on what I know from German friends and family members.

But I personally have known quite a few Germans, Swiss Germans, and Austrians who seem a bit ... overly secure by my standards. Being, for example, one of Berlin's top lawyers doesn't mean you're knowledgeable about everything under the sun, nor that you're a better person than anyone else. People from other countries can behave this way, too, but it's expressed very strongly by some Germans, ime. Actually they're very fine people in most cases, but I have to navigate cultural differences to not lose sight of that.

As for academia, some of my friends in that field here certainly have struggled with their perceptions of their own skill and merit, and they're not lightweights. They have degrees from the best schools, good publication track records, and tenure-track positions not so easy to come by in the United States.

Seems to me that of the areas I've worked in (publishing, performing arts, education) the DK effect is no less more more common in any. I'm curious to know if anyone's experiences across cultures and disciplines could truly prove to be exceptions.

As much as I dislike generalizations about countries, Germans are usually very correct and objective; if I had to find an integral type, I would consider it a country which values logic as a "main language" (probably Ti above all). Narrowing it down to segments I know best, I've never heard anyone in the academia here (from my supervisor to other full professors with lots of years of experience and activity behind them) downplaying their merit or engaging in games of false modesty. They do however sometimes make jokes or are self-persiflating in order to appear more human, not exactly robot-like or only about work&efficiency e.g. a professor may be telling stories in colloquia about how they anxiously write their papers one night before a presentation and stuff like that.

You are applying a sole frame, the DK effect, to evaluate or read individuals in a profession. It's like saying that students who are admitted to the Uni after an exam they passed with the highest grades actually think they suck and have no skills. That's not very realistic. Someone who has concrete proof of not being totally lousy will automatically give some credit to that. Said students may still make errors of judgement when it comes to others (overestimating some of them), but that is another issue. What you were bringing on the table as the DK effect is more a matter of deep psychology than a measure of actual competence. I never hear people talk about how much they suck (or their insecurities regarding their value in a given context) when I attend conferences. I hear them talk about what they have done, the results of their research, what they have written, published etc. Maybe that's more the domain of Te and Ti though and you simply liked talking mostly psychology.

[Creepy-male]

How do you deal with doubting your own talents.

I would actually find life pretty boring if this never occurred, it's actually a crucial part of life in my opinion.

Do you just "know" what you're good at?

I think it's more about what you enjoy and attempting to excel at that, versus what you're good at. I'll leave it to other people to tell me I'm good, because it stings bad to wear around that sort of pride and get it taken from you.

Do you ever question yourself after seeing others proclaiming their talents and think "maybe i'm just as misguided as them?".

I don't know what you mean here. Questioning yourself and striving like I said above I think is just a natural part of life, who really cares if others are misguided. What is important is my own vision and path and people I share that with, everyone else can die in a ditch for all I care. That sounds selfish but if you have any faith in a greater power or something transcendental then it will all work out in the end anyways.

Do you easily commit to one of your talents to develop and nurter it or are you wondering wether or not it's the right one?

I think you just know this intuitively and it's more about a feedback cycle. Doing this thing makes you fulfilled in a deep profound way, you peel away the shell of life's superficialities and get a glance at something deeper. Because of this you are addicted and therefore you must do it and you get better. After a while you may find this slipping away and things feel empty again without it. It becomes a feedback cycle. Before this happens life is empty and you are searching and discovering for that thing. It's like love, you don't write it down on a sheet of paper and plan it out, it's just natural.

Do you develop everything simultaniously or do you try to get to the 10000 hours norm with just one of them?

It all depends, some people are happy developing multiple things. Some people are happy focusing on one thing. Personally I know as a kid I never excelled greatly at any one thing and that was fine, it just didn't click nothing had won me over or captured my interest enough. Discovery is part of life as well, the important thing is to be receptive. What you want to avoid is the attitude of delusion and arrogance, that is wanting to be great without investing the effort. If something is important to you don't hesitate, just do it, carpus diem, etc.

Do you wonder how your life would have been if you'd started practising (or continued practising) from a young age? do you feel like you're too old to really get to excellence in any field or are you confident of where you're going?

I do and addressed this above. You are never too old, just do what you enjoy and realize it doesn't happen over night. Learn to enjoy the journey getting to greatness. Our culture loves to sell people get rich schemes but some of my favorite and profound moments in life have been just throwing myself entirely at something and feeling that great disparity between what I visualize in my mind versus what is actually occurring, it's so validating when it clicks and you arrive, its like the gates of heaven open up or something (not to be corny), like when your running a long way and that runner's high kicks in. I'll be honest it can be a bit frustrating, but ignore the critics, most people are very snide and will judge things as they are and not bother to invest a little imagination to what a person could be or attempt to help another grow or see into their spirit. It can be a great revenge too when you arrive and they are still busy picking away at others, they may not say it to your face because they are jealous, but you'll know. Which one do you want to be in life, the bitter critic or the one who strives? Just pursue after what brings you validation and happiness and let reality be the judge of your efforts not the critic. It builds soul-power to strive against adversity. From my experience in observing reality even the talented have to invest a lot of effort to excel at something or be great, and the effort one puts into something shows. Reality, results, and truth will always transcend the opinion of one snide critic and what produces results in reality so that it may be true is effort and willpower. It doesn't happen over night you have to be willing to be very determined, and that determination can only come if you enjoy what you are doing. Over time the disparity between your vision and reality, especially when you are slipping only builds that soul-power I was talking about. Many people get there soul-power from vampirically feeding on others and with false presentations but in the end the truth will show. I have been on both sides and I have learned my lesson, so I'm not saying this to criticize others.

[Amber]

(i think it's similar and different to academics. In both fields there's conventions and also a drive to superseed conventions. But the ammount of changing bounderies, or filling research gaps or distinguishing yourself from other artists is limitied by what others in the field (and audience/research backers) are willing to accept. But I think there's a lot of external drive, for instance parents and media, that fuel peoples self delusions in performing arts whereas there are not many parents who send their nerd-child to a peagent to present it's self exploding vulcano (maybe i'm just being bitter here that my inventions never got to see the limelight )

lol I've only scanned this. comparing pop culture to science ...I mean, yeah, sure (ILE anyone? ). apples and coconuts?

is there anyone sent by parents in the academia to do research after they're past 25 and they are already specialized and already make career choices? I mean you're not comparing students (freshers) to ppl who want to get into performing arts, but folks who work in the academia already or are already the "select few" urged to stay in research. There's way more limitation in pop culture from the side of the public than in science. You don't really have to please anyone in science, it just has to be original and at most you have to be able to align well with topics/areas that are more likely to be financed.