Actually the time I posted that comment the videos had not loaded for some weird reason. The sentence was accurate but the woman is neither LIE nor "hyper-msculine".
This woman is the exact female version of these men in stand up comedies and fun clubs constantly trying to give people advice about getting laid and having sex and "cutting the bullshit feelings in a relationship"
There is no way that this woman is LIE, there is 0 intellectual charge
Last edited by Zero; 05-06-2020 at 07:17 PM.
LIE women are rare, potentially the most rare type of all.
Add to that the tendency of Rational Duality being less common than Irrational Duality (based on my impression – and just think about it, do you know of more Rational or Irrational Dual pairs?),
it should be of no surprise that ♂ESI-♀LIE Duality is rare.
As far as I know, most ESI men end up dating a fellow ESI, sometimes an LSI, or an LSE once in a blue moon.
Many people in this thread have commented on male ESIs being more "grumpy" or "masculine". I don't find them any more or less grumpy than their female counterparts. In my experience, the Fi subtype of ESI is generally much more "grumpy" than the Se one. It could have something to do with the -Fi being strengthened. -Fi is not exactly known for "soft" and "accepting" moral judgment, rather the opposite. Also, while their Fi and by that their Fe is "boosted", I find that at the same time the modality of the function itself seems "boosted", too. In the case of ESI-Fi, their Fe seems to be "even more" Ignoring than the Fe of the Se subtype. But this is just my personal perception of the subtype differences.
Regarding the masculinity aspect – Gamma SFs can be fairly "masculine", as long as their Se is strong enough/boosted. I may be biased here as an Se-seeking female, but ESI-Fi men do not seem to fit into the stereotypical "masculine" gender role for the most part. Both Fi and Fe are usually seen to be more "feminine" than Te or Ti, hence an ESI-Fi does not seem to be that masculine, and can be rather androgynous in their gender expression (especially when they are Type 4). I feel like some people might mistake SLI men for ESI men. The former are the silent, logical, "grumpy" (because of Fe PoLR), practical, stereotypically "masculine" (because of being ST) type. ESI-Fi men, not so much. At last, I don't find ESI men rare at all, they are fairly common.
I cannot comment that much on ♂ESI-♀LIE Duality itself because I have not met nor observed a pair like that yet. I can only assume that their interaction would be fairly similar to the one between ♀ESI-♂LIE, with the exception that to onlookers their relationship will follow switched gender roles for the most part. I don't see LIE women being stereotypically "feminine", rather on the contrary. I have actually known one personally for a couple of years in Middle to High school. Just recently I realized she had been an LIE (likely Te sub) all along. We'd have frictions, needless to say. She was very vocal in Philosophy class and good at math. Known for being direct, straight-forward, loud, a bit klutzy (she is quite tall), and pretty smart. Before our interaction turned sour, she would indirectly ask me for dating advice with guys, or simply share how she had no luck with them. I cannot recall her dating anyone in Middle to High School, though she would have secret crushes on guys and not know how to properly act on them. She is currently studying industrial engineering. I have not seen nor talked to her since High school ended. And I honestly don't desire to.
I can give two other examples of what I deem to be female LIEs.
I am assuming those two ladies represent the two main archetypes of the female LIE you will come across.
Either the So/Sp or Sx/So version, essentially.
Here the real life example (likely So/Sp), Amy Webb:
And here the more glamorous, idealized fictional example.
I'd type her as LIE 3w4 Sx/So.
(I believe Jacob is LSI E6 and Shepard is SLE E8.)
Her reaction to the kiss seems pretty Victim to me.
And how she responds to his Aggressor advances before the kiss seems natural and positive.
The most feminine seems are INFP. The farther the type, the lesser they are. Besides types other factors like hormones, pheromones, beatiful body, etc. may affect this too.I don't see LIE women being stereotypically "feminine", rather on the contrary.
As far as I know, most actors and musicians are SF, with a couple of NFs thrown in the mix.
Imo alpha SF women are much more stereotipically feminine than IEI's.
and the ST men are the most stereotypically masculine.
Many Intuitives seem to be in some grey-zone.
The more emphasized their Ethical or Logical IE (look at subtype), the more they will fit into the respective gender role.
Also, SX usually tries to fit into a gender role, trying to appear more "masculine" or "feminine".
ENTJ-Ni female actress
below ENTJ rushing sexual relations (as is typical per some article on wikisocion about ENTJs) with Fi-valuing introvert guy who is not having it and finally loses his shit after months of come-ons.
"Description by V. Meged and A. Ovcharov
The intuitive subtype is pleasant and considerate in dialogue. He can be affectionate and cheerful, possesses a developed sense of humor, often becomes the soul of a company. Inspired, energetic, and optimistic. Mobile, restless, scattered, always in a hurry, aiming to accomplish much in time. Very enterprising, boldly takes risks. It's hard for him to concentrate on one thing for a long period of time. He has many ideas. Always has several points where he can apply his efforts. Diplomatic and gallant with everyone, especially with women, but can show familiarity at closer acquaintance. Due to his inclination to unceremoniousness, his sense of tact often fails him, and he commits ethical mistakes, which he tries to correct and mend with the help of jokes and his services. Behaves himself simply, uninhibitedly, freely and easily. In conversation sometimes like to touch his conversation partner, to hug, to kiss, to make jokes. His gestures and gait lack ostentatious solidity and seem very natural.
This is a person of action with a developed creative beginning. Has an active practical mind, very curious, and boldly experiments. Often constructs far-reaching but concrete plans. Impulsive, cheerful, enterprising, easily takes initiative in new projects and beginnings. Quickly turns to work, inspiring others to get involved with his own enthusiasm. Bravely tackles implementing new ideas to life, as he sees their prospects well into the future. Brave, resourceful, far-sighted and shrewd. Instantly orients in extreme situations and develops an effective plan of action. If he is not involved in some project or activity, he starts to feel bored and his vitality falls, but usually he is able to quickly find application of his abilities in any activity.
Somewhat scattered, inclined to get distracted by secondary and unimportant things, due to which may put off the main work until later, but after a while returns to it. Impatient by nature, may be careless and negligent with details. Dislikes competing, manifesting selfish interests, demanding his right to something. May cede his positions to more obstinate and insistent partners. For the sake of justice or to defend an idea in which he believes, may sacrifice his own interests.
Fluctuates in choosing which decision to go with, due to which it is easy to talk him out of what he has conceived. Due to internal doubts and contradictions he can be unpredictable in his behavior. With difficulty endures the crash of his hopes, but, with the inherent to his optimism, is not averse to start everything anew, not looking back. Gravitates towards new impressions and changes, often changes his hobbies and interests, tries and tests himself in different spheres of activity and occupations. A romantic at heart, enjoys travel, sharp and thrilling impressions, sometimes tests and risks with his fate. Faithful in relations, but not averse to flirting. His personal life is often rather complicated and changeable.
Emotional, fidgety, restless. Tries to do everything in time and feels very worried when he sees that he cannot accomplish everything by the deadlines. He is often in a hurry himself, and hurries and urges others. Negatively refers to those who are lazy, who seek convenience and enjoyment. In conversations, he is lively and welcoming. Seems sincere, original, straightforward, and predisposing towards trust. Attentive towards other people, delves into their problems, gives advice, offers his services, tries to encourage them, make them laugh with jokes. If in the interests of the work or business he finds it necessary to put pressure on other people, tries to do it in inoffensive form, although he may be too direct and pushy. Sometimes his sense of tact fails, and he can inadvertently offend his conversation partner, but then he tries to fix the situation immediately or very soon. He is docile in nature: it's difficult to pick a quarrel with him.
Interested in various unsolved and unexplored phenomena. Tries to comprehend the essence of various events and manifestations. Reflects and thinks over scientific, moral, and philosophical questions. In his soul he is somewhat suspicious and superstitious. At home undemanding, can do with very little. Loves children and animals. Pays little attention to his appearance. Wanting to be loved not for his appearance, but for his inner qualities. In need of a person who can keep him from committing rash actions."
Last edited by nanashi; 01-31-2018 at 08:13 AM.
I don't see ENTJs as masculine nor as feminine.
I don't see feelers as feminine nor masculine.
My dad is ESI
My mom is LIE
They're gamma type. My mom is really social and productive , meanwhile my dad is serious and sorrow.
Baggage should be separated from type before valid analyses can be done; and most baggage is associated with hormones, testosterone, sex and or sexual orientation, which drives perspective and experience. The cognitive processes of males and females of the same type should be the same, and hence cognitive interaction with duals should essentially be identical - if it weren't for the baggage. Unfortunately, type is hidden under the baggage and baggage often occupies more of the personality than does type. I have noticed that much of the observable interaction between duals isn't type related.....
Possible female LIE
Either way , there's a female LIE I know and she's married to an LSE. They are a pretty much a power couple.
Random facts about her
She's attractive for her age and walks around with an air of confidence, very good posture and since she has high status in the group she seems to walk around with that as well, but when you speak to her she always comes off as down to earth and kind. Her kindness does seem like a professional behavior though, not 100%fake but of course not the real her. The real her comes out in small moments, but she's usually quiet in group meetings like she's preoccupied thinking about something more important or just straight up jaded and bored with what we are talking about like she knows all this already, but when she does speak she usually speaks with authority and kinda sounding like a motivational speaker.
There's some power struggles between her and her husband, sometimes he asks her to get him something to drink, and she looks like she has to bite a bullet everytime she does it. Also he tries to give her directions on how to do something and it's she just does what she thinks is best anyway. She doesn't seem to try and control him, he seems to try and control her and she seems to resist to keep her independence.
She doesn't know about socionics and only briefly knows about MBTI, enough to know her own type. I've spoken to her about it before and she's told me back in school her teachers would tell her to soften her tone or something whenever she gave a speech. There have been times in our group where she's started to speak and then said " let me shut up because sometimes when I say something it doesn't come out right", like if to say she didn't want to offend anyone.
There's an LII(possibly) in our group that at first glance appears autistic because he is way too introverted and quiet, like an extreme case. She frikkin adores him, kisses him on the cheek so hard her face smushes into it. It's freaking strange, she also likes children and playing with them, but everyone gets the professional kindness. I caught her one time in a group meeting just watching a kid play and smiling and when she saw that I caught her she looked embarrassed.
The only person she talks extensively with in our group is an old LSI woman, when everyone is talking as a group, she's off in the corner speaking to the LSI woman quietly (Sx?).
I remember one time I was depressed to the point it was obvious on my face, and she looked me in the eye and quickly looked away like it made her uncomfortable to look at me.
I also remember my LSE friend telling her he was gonna drive back home, which is a 16 hour drive out of state, and she looked up at him with much respect on her face.
After talking to her about MBTI she started talking to me about books she eventually wants to write and she started getting really excited in the conversation, and she got on a roll of non stop talking, I didn't mind since I never seen her talk so much and so lively. There were points in the conversation where she would forget the last thing she just said when I would refer to it later. example, she spoke to me about a few books, then leave off with talking about a specific book, I would say "that book" to refer to the very last book she just spoke about and then she would ask me "which book?" I'm like, uh the one you were just talking about lady are you crazy lol. Anyway it was weird, maybe her mind was moving a mile a minute. The books she wants to write are about how at her age, she mid 50s, you can still find love, she thinks it will help out alot of women she knows that are successful but still single, saying the money isn't someone you can build memories with. But she says she doesn't have the time to write them yet.
She had a child like enthusiasm especially when talking about her accomplishments, almost like a child saying " Mommy look what I did!" not those exact words, but a similar tone of voice. Example, she used to be in the military and got to ride in a tank, I was amazed and asked did she really do that and she replied " Yup!" With this huge giddy smile like a proud kid lol. Not the first LIE I've seen do that either, it's surprising but funny.
Anyway, after her telling me about her hopes to want to write a book one day, the next time I see her she sat next to me at the table, she never does, and my guess was because she wanted to continue the conversation. I couldn't because it felt like bonding and she's married so I stayed silent, and she didn't try to initiate any conversation, maybe she was hoping I would because I got no other clue why she sat next to me. The next time I see her after that she says hi to me standing in the doorway of the room I'm working in, and that's all we say to each other, but she just stays standing in the doorway facing me but looking down for a while before she decides to leave, I interpreted it 9 ways to Sunday but who knows what that was about, I brought it up to MBTI ENTJs online and the ones the replied said yea something was up. I never had a long conversation with her again after that day, because even though she's much older than me I can't deny that she's attractive, so I just chose to keep my distance.
I remember that after I told her my MBTI type the next time I saw her she was like "HIIIII HOW ARE YOU?" with extra sugar on top and that made me uncomfortable real quick, maybe she read something about F types and thought that's the way they liked to be talked to lol.
Another thing was, she constantly changed her appearance and hair, constantly, everytime I saw her she had a new look. She's finally settled on a hair style but she always wears very bold colored dresses and jewelry that makes a statement. She's high status in the group and she definitely makes her self look like it.
In a group meeting where we were talking about how to attract people to our organization, she revealed her grand plan to save an entire township that was abandoned, rebuild the property from the ground up and get support from her company to do it, like what? Lol. She had this huge idea in her mind the entire time?
She seems to want to help a large group of people, having some actual impact on a grand scale, like a hero or something. She wanted to send towels to nursing homes because she heard they run out of towels.
Her day job is head of some operation at a military district of defense company. Her husband likes to point out that at work she's the boss but when she comes home she sleeps on his chest.
I remember I talked to her about a movie plot one time, and she cut straight to the point and was like " This is not new they've been doing that all throughout history". Said with a straight and jaded look on her face.
Someone brought up space travel in a conversation and she jumped in and said " you know they are trying to find a way to colonize other planets, that's what that's all about."and she repeated it to see if it would open the door for conversation, but she was talking to an ESE so no lol.
At home she's very different thennin public, for one she doesn't not smile nearly as much, of course she's not dressed up either, she's like idk how to explain. Like a rock or something. She's got the hugest freaking husky that looks half polar bear and she plays with the monster like it's a puppy, it was a stray that came to their front door, fully grown btw, and decided to keep it. Her husband thinks it's a burden though. At home she heard her IEE grandson whining in a very femenine tone of voice and she tells him " Hey, don't talk like that, don't you want to sound like a man?" lol The boy says " No, I want to sound like me." Lol, she just looks dumbfounded. Her filter seems lowered at home for sure.
She claims she's a human lie detector.
That's all I got. My bad if it was a mess lol.
Last edited by Lord Pixel; 05-06-2020 at 12:18 AM.
Him, at 10:00: "One thing that we know about each other now is that we can actually go through a rocky point and still be in an interaction."
Her, thinks: This guy is a clown.
Him: "Now, we're still undecided about each other..."
Her, thinks: No, I'm not.
She was being minimally polite to him because she left her flame thrower at home.
Lord Pixel, subjectively this feels like my on-line dating experiences without the feedback from the ESI’s. I say to them, “I’ll be your man about town. All I want is for you to make love to me.” And in return, what I seem to be getting back in return is, “We are so different. Never in a million years, with you. I have to feel deep, deep feelings and you don’t have any.”
I don’t have much experience with ESI’s, but the thing that seems to make relations possible with them at all is that they will jump at the rabbit if they like you. But their liking you depends on you matching up on a deep level with their previous Se experiences, and that just doesn’t happen on line. All they can see in a dating site profile are the differences.
And their low Ni means they can read the words in front of them, but they can’t predict where the sentence is going.
I've been thinking about that video. That woman's approach is pretty similar to mine. "I've been watching you for a while and I like you enough to have sex with you, which means "a lot", so let's do it. I'll start."
This approach is not universally successful, I can tell you that.
I complain a lot about my online dating experiences - or lack of responses - and I just looked up the statistics of how many messages a male has to send out in order to get a single response from a woman. The average number is 114. Well, in two years, I've sent out 22. And I had to lower my standards to do that many.
This explains a lot.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 05-06-2020 at 04:29 PM.
Last edited by nanashi; 05-08-2020 at 05:15 PM.
also, this can be because we don't want you seeing that we see your pain to be partly a cause of pain to you ...[/U] "I remember one time I was depressed to the point it was obvious on my face, and she looked me in the eye and quickly looked away like it made her uncomfortable to look at me.
" (it's sympathy and respect, ime)
Last edited by nanashi; 05-11-2020 at 11:01 PM.
Yea that approach doesn't seem to take the other person's mutual or lack of feelings into account as much and also seems to skip the whole bonding process which would create the mutual feelings. She just jumps the guy and he has all these glaring signs she never considered, she likes him but has got know idea how he feels about it. But I don't know exactly how these things occur or don't occur for Se valuing. I think Aggressors aren't as concerned if the other person is interested in them or not, their main concern is their own interest in the person. So maybe that approach works for those types.
Lol damn. And the whole thing is so skewed in the favor of the girl, I knew an ILI girl who used a dating app and she got exhausted with how many guys she had to turn down, she had a date every week.I complain a lot about my online dating experiences - or lack of responses - and I just looked up the statistics of how many messages a male has to send out in order to get a single response from a woman. The average number is 114. Well, in two years, I've sent out 22. And I had to lower my standards to do that many.
This explains a lot.
It still makes me smirk at myself
Spot on. The funny thing is the ESI I knew didn't know himself. He once told me: "I don't know what's wrong with me I want to fall in love but meet only on weekends"What might be different also, he doesn't try to keep me close all the time. We can spend together a lot of time but we can do many things alone and it's perfectly fine.
This was of course an exaggeration of his own feelings due to him being surprised about an inner paradox.
He had many inner paradoxes and was not good at detecting them. Once he did he would start noticing it in everything he did and panicking about it, googling about mental illnesses, talking to really close people about it to see what they think etc. He thought he had the Madonna-whore complex because one of his friends had told him he had and it eased his guilt ridden pain to think something was actually mentally wrong with him to be able to do what he did.
Was the same with meFor me it's hard to do all the things connected to the relationship. I love spending time with him but I need to work and to do many things at once. I feel an inside pressure if I don't so part of me doesn't really want to meet up. But we do.
So trueNot sure if I'm more fi-oriented than other LIEs as the 5th function goes like crazy. He buys me clothes, helps me to chose them, goes with me to buy schoes, etc. He tries to limit my activities to those money-able
I judged mine as not having ethical stability due to being interested in an open long distance relationship (there was no other choice, he "had his needs")And I really like that ethical stability.
so I asked him to "keep me from contacting him". And he did. I regret it but it was the best choice.
Female ENTJ :3 hi !!!
I feel like hyperactivity is a common trait in LIEs
I found this girl on an article or something. Her name's Fabiola Mann, and she apparently had an extreme high IQ. She VIs like an LIE, and her hobbies appear very NT. I think there's a high chance she's actually one.
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCYK...mBrmAuXVtgMgWw > She also made a youtube video.
Btw, how do I make pictures and videos visible so everyone can see?
Last edited by Surreal; 06-28-2020 at 04:24 AM.