Why do you think there are so few ENTps on this forum?

[Polly]

I see many different representations of types on this forum in particular there seems to be quite a few INTjs, ENTjs plus a host of other types but only a few ENTps.

I can see ENTps being drawn to all this just as much, if not more so than other types so I'm curious why many wouldn't end up here.

I know from a personal persective, I tend to come and go from sites. I lose interest quickly (no offence to the brilliant posters) and tend to wonder off. If its a good site though, I'll always eventually wonder back.

Considering ENTps also seem the type to be attracted to the internet I was wondering if any wanted to speculate on why so few here or even in person for that matter.

[Joy]

yeah, I think it's the losing interest thing

[Creepy-aurora_faerie]

I think that ENTp's just don't really care that much, same as most ESTp's don't care (Herzy is exception). But you see a little more ESTp's because their partners get them into it and ESTp's tend to try and please their partners in that sort of way.

[Ch4r]

Hmm, I'm ENTp as far as I know. But I haven't acquired a very comprehensive knowledge of Socionics, so I generally try to keep my mouth shut and not contribute excess ignorance. Losing interest could be a big part of it though, as I know that I tend to join a lot of forums just to have my activity spiral down to zilch pretty quickly.

[UDP]

..... I think some NTps aren't really that into 'introspection', or as it were, thinking about themselves (or trying to define themselves). Not all of them, no. But for instance, some INTps really dislike being pidgeon holed in a catagory. I would assume some ENTps also feel that way. Even more so, if, especially intitially, Socionics comes off as "advanced zodiac stuff", which can seem like a lot of bullshit to some people, NTps included.

Now, that certainly isn't based on empirical data or facts, but that is my experience.

[Polly]

I'm ENTp as far as I know. But I haven't acquired a very comprehensive knowledge of Socionics, so I generally try to keep my mouth shut and not contribute excess ignorance

I don't have a detailed knowledge of socionics either. Even if I did, I don't tend to remember details. Instead I think I make a lot of subconscious connections and the details are not usually required...when they are, I can kind of sense it.

I usually get two reactions:

They either believe or
They don't believe (ISFj *cough*)

But for instance, some INTps really dislike being pidgeon holed in a catagory. I would assume some ENTps also feel that way. Even more so, if, especially intitially, Socionics comes off as "advanced zodiac stuff", which can seem like a lot of bullshit to some people, NTps included

I've run into this a lot with both MBTI and Socionics but haven't dealt with enough other ENTps to know if that's the case. I would definately agree with the introspection part. For me though, I've never run into other people much like me in my life. So when MBTI came along I was actually quite happy that I fit into some group and finally knew there were others out there who shared these same quarky traits. I felt like an alien who just found out he/she wasn't the only one on the planet.

Many ENTps are naturally drawn to psychology I think. I want to know why people do the things they do. I would think that a lot of ENTps would naturally expect, after their experiences, that people could some how be categorized.

What gets on my nerves is when people try to tell me I'm supposed to behave a certain way because of my type. I think of it more in terms of tendencies. We tend to behave in one way or another but its a real crap shoot as to how we will actually behave.

[pesto]

It could simply be a dynamics of the forum thing.

[Bubba Priest]

I think that once an ENTp has gotten what he/she needs from a site like this, he/she will move on and perhaps forget to return at a later date, despite intentions to do so. I know I will probably not post much after this, because I am mainly here to read other's opinions and theories, and develop a few of my own, perhaps.

[Kristiina]

There are quite many ENTps here, but the problem is that ENTps tend to get bored with their types and then they type themselves again and again...


Joy - this post is not only about you.

[Joy]

http://the16types.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=5318

[Cone]

There used to be many ENTps here. In fact, here's some official statistics from 2005: http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...pic.php?t=1812

If they left, then it was probably because of the Great Migration of ENTjs to the forum which happened some time ago.

[Polly]

I'm not sure of the relevance of the ENTj migration. I don't tend to see eye to eye with them many times but its nothing that really upsets me in anyway.

I will blow off their opinions sometimes as I'm sure they blow off mine.

[dreamer]

Seems like ENTPs are only really concerned about themselves so when they get what they want, they don't stay around and spend the time to help others. And since they're the 'inventors', this already has been invented so...boredom, disbelief even...

[Polly]

Seems like ENTPs are only really concerned about themselves so when they get what they want, they don't stay around and spend the time to help others.

I'm not offended by this but I think this a big misconception of ENTps and see it on here regularly. I do care about other people and actually tend to place my needs and wants last in most of my relationships and at work. Because I put my feelings aside so easily, I'm usually the only one doing it to make unbiased decisions and more often than not, get the short end of the stick because of it. I will put my own wants and needs aside for the greater good more so than I see other people ever doing it. I have this ingrained sense of responsibility that when things are going wrong and no one is acting then it is my responsiblity to act.

I am easily bored by many people though. I like unique people who stimulate my thought. I don't care about gossip of the minute details of what's going on in other people's lives. I have little patience for people I see who shoot themselves in the foot and scream drama. If you are the type to manipulate others into doing work for you that you should be doing, I'll look at you in discust and think you are weak.

I have very high standards for those I let close to me. You have to be independent and self-sufficient. Its not because I don't want to help, its because I have people who will use me to solve of their problems and suck me dry if I let them. Server types are pretty bad for this with me. They will use me to help them serve other people without any regard for me as a person but rather a tool.

I do help others, quite a bit actually. I will shy away though if I find people are coming to me for help rather than even trying to do things themselves. Basically, they are using me because they are too lazy to think. It is selfish and monopolizes my time not to mention, I don't think its actually in their best interest. The whole teach a man to fish thing.

If the above comment was actually true about ENTps than we wouldn't be so successful in leadership positions. Basically, from everything I've read, the above is actually very common behavior of ENTps and its not the exception but the rule.

Also kind of interesting that I have volunteered to help so much in my life that I was just recruited by a not-for profit to work with volunteers. Doesn't quite fall into that stereotypical ENTP mold many around here seem to promote.

P.S. Another way to get on my badside is to volunteer my time without asking me. I find that most often, the person volunteering me is trying to save the day but instead of them actually saving it they get me to then give themselves a big pat on the back for being so useful. Its a no brainer how inconsiderate it is but because I'm so nice and helpful, I tend to get targeted by this kind of behavior a lot.

edit..still thinking about this lol...ok one more thing...I promise this is it

When people think of 'help' quite often its from their own perspective. I'm horrible at helping in sensing and detailed areas and know this about myself. If you need help or guidance when it comes to something like awareness...I will be enthusiastic and actually feel very useful.

If someone comes to me and says I have a problem I just can't solve, will you help? SHWING. I'm again, downright eager to help. This even included things like doing my older sister's homework assignments for them as a kid. If they ran into trouble or needed to make a good grade to pass the term, I'd do book reports for them, that kind of thing.

Ask me to mop the floors or do the dishes? I will procrastinate like there is no tomorrow.

[Blaze]

Another entp back from the land of the lost! :-)

I agree with what you said Polly.

[Matt]

I do care about other people and actually tend to place my needs and wants last in most of my relationships and at work. Because I put my feelings aside so easily, I'm usually the only one doing it to make unbiased decisions and more often than not, get the short end of the stick because of it. I will put my own wants and needs aside for the greater good more so than I see other people ever doing it. I have this ingrained sense of responsibility that when things are going wrong and no one is acting then it is my responsiblity to act.

Fantastic comment.

I'll share a story..
I was involved in a disagreement with an ESTJ friend this week. The cliff notes version is that she was wrong and I was right. She eventually came to that conclusion as well.. At first, she wouldn't admit anything or attempt and resolve it. Instead, she abandoned ship after writing a ranting email. My response? I conceded everything that I thought was true in what she said, then proceeded to calmly rationalize point by point through her arguments. I was so interested in reaching resolution, I found myself forgetting that I was the one that was wronged, not her.
By resolution, I don't mean peace, I mean, I need to find the truth of the matter. Peace is sometimes a biproduct, and a welcome one, but not necessary.
I separated myself from my feelings so much, that I forget my personal involvement in the argument, as, to me, it is just a collection of thoughts unattached to any single individual. Just bunch of facts bouncing around in space that I am sifting through in order to find the correct solution to the disagreement. In this case, and in many others, I found myself letting her off pretty damn easy, then catching myself, then pushing back. I have a strong history of making too many concessions to keep the disagreement rational. The argument usually ends with me feeling a bit cheated, because I let them off too easy.

The upside to emotional detachment in a conflict is that it enables us to reach a conclusion, whether it benefits us or not. Translated: I'm going to find the truth, whether I was in the wrong or the right, is nearly inconsequential. I will admit fault where appropriate, every time.

The downside to emotional detachment, is that we can be pretty cold in arguments and forget that, unlike us, the one we are arguing with still has their emotions attached to these ideas/actions. So, when we attack their idea/action, they feel as though we are attacking them.

Anyway, great assessment Polly.

This discussion compelled me to register, just found the site today.
Greetings all, new ENTP on board.

[Polly]

Another ENTP!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

..and yes, the above scenerio has happened to me A LOT. So much so I was really being taken advantage of by others. I don't attach my own wants and needs when making a decision which impacts other people.

I started to realize about 2 years ago that this is not exactly appropriate when it came to my closer relationships. That how "I feel" about something is sometimes important too.

Its not easy though. My whole life I felt extremely guilty and selfish if I ever acted on the way I felt vs taking all factors into consideration. I literally felt like I bad person for even thinking about doing it.

For some reason though, I do not place these expectations on other people. I'm very tolerant of sometimes quite selfish behavior (well until it gets to a certain point and there is a blow out).

One of the funniest arguments I ever got in was with this woman (have no clue and don't really care what her type was) who was jealous of me and was harassing me. She was recruiting people to her side to come after me in a social way. She would not confront me directly on anything.

I don't do this kind of stuff. I don't need to. I'm confident enough that I'll take someone on all by myself. I kind of just sat back and let her do her worst. Making note and analyzing all of the behavior and categorgizing what possible psychosis she was suffering from.

Then in a very public place proceeded to diagnose her in front of everyone exposing her behavior and destroyed any credability she would ever have with anyone in that room.

Then I went from someone she was describing and trying to get her in secret (she told people all kinds of weird stories about me) to someone she described as a moralistic goody goody. She too abandoned the situation.

P.S. Its not like I plan to do these things or think about them beforehand (well sometimes in a fantasy way but not realistically). It just happens very naturally. I usually feel a bit guilty and ashamed afterwards for over-reacting. But at the time, I think I'm doing the world a favor. I have very little pity for poisen people. I actually enjoy taking on bullies and showing everyone else just how weak they really are. Hmm maybe its a vent for pent up aggression I feel for being pretty passive most times.

[Matt]

That how "I feel" about something is sometimes important too.

Its not easy though. My whole life I felt extremely guilty and selfish if I ever acted on the way I felt vs taking all factors into consideration. I literally felt like I bad person for even thinking about doing it.

I've never actually gotten to this point. I don't allow myself to act on a feeling, I continually feel compelled to justify everything I do rationally. If I can't justify it, then I determine that I was at fault for giving into the irrational and feel a bit inferior for it. I'll have to chew on what you said for awhile, sounds wise.

For some reason though, I do not place these expectations on other people. I'm very tolerant of sometimes quite selfish behavior (well until it gets to a certain point and there is a blow out).

I can relate to the extreme tolerance of others. This becomes an issue because the more people get to know me, the more they exploit it. Ultimately, a double standard develops. They are given a lot of room for error, whereas I am given a very narrow tolerance band to operate within. In the back of my mind, that's the way I think it should be... that is, I come to expect that treatment and don't see it (without effort) as a problem. That may have a lot to do with my strict SJ upbringing. My family has always been more than happy to exploit this weakness.

P.S. Its not like I plan to do these things or think about them beforehand (well sometimes in a fantasy way but not realistically). It just happens very naturally. I usually feel a bit guilty and ashamed afterwards for over-reacting. But at the time, I think I'm doing the world a favor. I have very little pity for poisen people. I actually enjoy taking on bullies and showing everyone else just how weak they really are. Hmm maybe its a vent for pent up aggression I feel for being pretty passive most times.

There isn't one time that I've argued with someone and not questioned my actions later. Do you ever feel like a grizzly bear in a chicken coop? It seems that the angrier I get, the more articulate I become. I just go on these really long monologues covering every square inch of ground. Sometimes, the carnage is so severe, that it could be compared to Van Damm beating up a 4th grader for lunch money. But, mind you, I put up with an extremely large dose of extended brutality from that individual that led up to the final confrontation.

Now, I know that some of the readers may interpret this as bottling up emotions, but it isn't. It's called restraint. Honestly, if I had my way, I'd love to tell each person off immediately, but something inside me won't let me do it until I establish enough evidence to feel justified. I think it's that whole commitment to truth thing. I'm not going to get into a confrontation until I feel that, without a doubt, I am justified to move in. Maybe it's also because I want to avoid that guilty feeling when it's over.

Something else popped into my mind just now. Do you ever come across to others as being a bit timid? Not to people that know you well enough, but mostly new people. This ESTJ that I got into an argument with had really treated me poorly for a long time, playing very aggressive and sort of bullying me. Because I avoid confrontation until justified, I believe she got the impression that I was rather passive and incapable of standing up for myself. Consequently, as time went on, the offenses began to increase, thereby, leading to the latest confrontation.

It's just something I've been mulling over. On the surface, you wouldn't expect we could level someone so easily, as we are quite mild in our demeanor, until sufficiently challenged. I believe that many are surprised when they see the articulate blasting that proceeds when we're finally ready to confront.

Man, this was supposed to be a short response.

[Polly]

It's ENTP Analogy Time!!!

Do you ever feel like a grizzly bear in a chicken coop?

ALL OF THE TIME - Pretty good analogy. We just need to work on the part where the Grizzly is actually a very kind and gentle bear but will eventually lose his patience with the chickens if they treat him like chicken feed too long. Then oops...I ate some of the chickens. I feel really bad about eating them too. They sure tasted good at the time though. Uh oh, feel guilty for that too. Why? Because it wasn't a fair fight...I'm a grizzly bear and they are just chickens.

Put me up against another Grizzly bear...and I would have loved to duke it out win or lose and would not feel guilty afterwards.

I don't allow myself to act on a feeling, I continually feel compelled to justify everything I do rationally. If I can't justify it, then I determine that I was at fault for giving into the irrational and feel a bit inferior for it.

Think of it more like this. You have a level of intuition at your disposal that other people don't have. To not trust it at all, would be denying one of your most valuable tools (not to mention dull it from lack of use).

In some situations, we deal with people whom we know put their wants and needs at the forefront, they may be manipulative of us. If your intuition is telling you a situation is wrong there is a good probability of it being right. Normally, that probability is a loose end we start questioning. In this type of interpersonal situation though we have to take the chance we are right. If you wait every single time to be sure you are right, you will most likely not deal with the situation rather than bring up later on that you felt you had been wronged.

You will fear it will provoke a conflict you just don't want to deal with....with things moving steady at the time you are unlikely to worry about it. Keeping the peace is more important.

End scenario, situation is not dealt with and allowed to escalate.

If your intuition is wrong, what is the worse case scenario? OH MY GOD...you were wrong. Just like a lot of other people are every day. You don't have to be perfect in other areas of your life and you don't have to be perfect in this one either.

It's called restraint.

Exactly and its NOT easy. I just won't answer bad behavior in kind. I feel like I'm lowering myself. Not to mention the whole fair fight thing. I don't just fight back, I crush my opponent. I try to warn people but they either think I'm bragging or disbelieve. The only people who actually believe it are those that have seen me in action. I change.

I go from being this laid back, calm type who seems eager to help anyone but intimidates few to this very articulate lawyer type who can make anyone they pretty much feel like, shake in their boots. I don't even have to think when responding to people, I start spouting off laws I didn't even think I remembered and explain to them a few possible scenarios as to how I'm about to take them down. I deflect any attack and respond with twice the force. I really don't know how far I could take this, it would be scary to find out.

I don't really run into anyone who can take me on in this way. Despite all the comments about manipulative ENTp behavior, ENTps are not bullies. We don't respect them or their behavior.

The brunt of the attack is usually left completely shaken and feeling like, "holy fuk...what just hit me...omg...what did I provoke". Then like the stages of death, comes their bargaining. I then consider myself the victor and will loosen my grip and maybe even let go. I want to see them swallow a little pride first though.

Do you ever come across to others as being a bit timid?

They are, a very large portion of the population are very easy to manipulate. They don't trust themselves to think for themselves and will follow pretty much whatever they are told. It sounds rude but I'm sorry its true, they are sheep. I let the sheep roam free but wolves are running around preying on them all the time. I sometimes protect the sheep from the wolves.

Some of the sheep don't respect me until they see me take on a wolf. Then they follow me like I'm their sheppard. I don't want them to follow me though, I want them to roam free and be independent, happy and well adjusted sheep. Then I hurt their sheep feelings because they feel rejected.

Man, this was supposed to be a short response.

ENTPs don't do short responses. Well we can, but its a struggle.

[Matt]

If your intuition is wrong, what is the worse case scenario? OH MY GOD...you were wrong. Just like a lot of other people are every day. You don't have to be perfect in other areas of your life and you don't have to be perfect in this one either.

Yeah, I'll have to say that don't allow myself room for error. I am incredibly hard on myself. I appreciate the perspective here.

I don't just fight back, I crush my opponent. I try to warn people but they either think I'm bragging or disbelieve. The only people who actually believe it are those that have seen me in action. I change.

I go from being this laid back, calm type who seems eager to help anyone but intimidates few to this very articulate lawyer type who can make anyone they pretty much feel like, shake in their boots. I don't even have to think when responding to people, I start spouting off laws I didn't even think I remembered and explain to them a few possible scenarios as to how I'm about to take them down. I deflect any attack and respond with twice the force. I really don't know how far I could take this, it would be scary to find out.

Yep, you just described the entire experience perfectly. If the other person failed to relent, I'm not sure to what extent I would go either. Once again, I feel like my mouth is a lethal weapon... I have to keep it under control and not point it at anyone. While one side of me can deal a fatal blow, the other side of me is so extremely diplomatic... so they are always at odds. The arguing side is the warhawk and the diplomat is the pacifist. I think it's the diplomat that makes me feel guilty when I go to war.

I don't really run into anyone who can take me on in this way. Despite all the comments about manipulative ENTp behavior, ENTps are not bullies. We don't respect them or their behavior.

I have a ton of respect for people who will just stick around to solve something. I've never found anyone that will square with me. Since my tactics usually inspire people to flight, I work hard to throttle it down as best I can.
Those reading this may be envisioning a name-calling fest when I reference a powerful argument. In fact, it's nothing like that. I think that may be the intimidating part of it... that I don't attack the person, I always focus my attacks on the argument. The response is often an attack at me personally, but I just can't bring myself to reciprocate.

The brunt of the attack is usually left completely shaken and feeling like, "holy fuk...what just hit me...omg...what did I provoke". Then like the stages of death, comes their bargaining. I then consider myself the victor and will loosen my grip and maybe even let go. I want to see them swallow a little pride first though.

Okay, mine end completely different usually. The other person gets pissed because they are answering rational thinking with the irrational sort. They get frustrated that I don't go there, I back them into a corner until they cry, and then they usually just run... disappear. Then the talking behind my back begins, about how much of an asshole I am. Man, I was just trying to solve the thing. Unless I make the next move, the people usually don't return.

[Polly]

Okay, mine end completely different usually. The other person gets pissed because they are answering rational thinking with the irrational sort. They get frustrated that I don't go there, I back them into a corner until they cry, and then they usually just run... disappear. Then the talking behind my back begins, about how much of an asshole I am. Man, I was just trying to solve the thing. Unless I make the next move, the people usually don't return.

Hmm I wonder if this is a guy/girl thing. Women can tend to talk about people more so by this time, they've already been going on about me behind my back for quite sometime. All this information gets fed back to me.

I ignore it for the most part and don't react. Thinking, well anyone who is actually worthwhile won't believe it anyway.

It is still hard for me to adjust to that some women are actually jealous of me and will go to great lengths to destroy my reputation out of that jealousy. I get attention because of my skills when I go into an environment, not my ability to shmooze.

But I'm also a really genuinely nice and helpful person. I'm thought of as highly competant.

This just does something to a lot of other women. I don't know what it is but they get jealous. Then comes the slanderous remarks behind my back (that do sometimes make it back to me). I try to ignore it and just think anyone who is worthwhile just won't believe it. I don't respond in kind.

Because I'm not responding, they take even more liberties with their bad behavior until it gets to the point, they are actually trying to force me out of the work environment (60% of workplace bullies are women bullying other women).

I think this is where many ESTPs might get into merky water. If its an ESTP proned to paranoia and jealousy they will use their people skills to out you. They see their power of popularity as a weapon to get rid of those they don't want.

People think I should get along well with my ESTP comparative, but in reality I'm ESTP cautious because they won't fight battles by themselves, they recruit as many people as they can against you and not always ethical in the way they deal with these situations.

It may even be our similarities that make me seem like a threat to them. They wouldn't remotely identify with me if they didn't see similarties.

If I walk into a situation where there is an ESTP at the helm as social head honcho, they either try to recruit me as their friend or are jealous of me. In a work situation, I want to be neither with them. I'm there to do my job, not to socialize.