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Thread: Signs of Being (Non-) Dualized

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    Default Signs of Being (Non-) Dualized

    How do you think it's easiest to tell if someone has gone through some dualizing experiences or at least is attuned to their dual-seeking function?
    Personally I doubt it has to do with how functional someone is in society, as some Socionics texts go. People are adaptable, they manage to survive and do well even when they lack duals or direct support from others in the area of the suggestive. So far I've been trying to gauge people's reaction to information related to the inferior and I've seen some reject it outright and use only ego functions to form their convictions and their expectations in life, while others seem quite comfortable with info and energy from their suggestive and even actively seek it (often through personal means: e.g. Fi/Fe in music, literature ..). Any other ideas?

    I'm talking mainly of "real-life" people who most often than not have no clue about Socionics.

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    Ne overload ...

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    This is a trickier question than spotting someone who has been dualized. The person could be raised with parents that slant their line of reasoning towards the super-ego, the ID, the super-id, or reaffirm strongly what their ego functions tell them already. The amount of variations that large of a field can spawn is too much to make sense of. If anything it would resemble the variation thats inherent with people in general, as most people aren't dualized.

    I think this question would be better off if you narrowed it down, (Type mentored by their quasi-identical/conflictor/activity, etc...) or look for signs of being dualized, its a smaller pond to find that fish.
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    I re-read the post, the title confused me.

    Spotting a dualized person, i think as a general rule of thumb, you can see a measure of confidence/competency in their Super-ID functions as compared to their peers. It will still come through the lens or filter of that persons type, but they are using the super-id functions to fuel themselves forward. I mean, in a nutshell, isn't that what being dualized is: Having familiarity/control with the functions that fuel your ego?
    Projection is ordinary. Person A projects at person B, hoping tovalidate something about person A by the response of person B. However, person B, not wanting to be an obejct of someone elses ego and guarding against existential terror constructs a personality which protects his ego and maintain a certain sense of a robust and real self that is different and separate from person A. Sadly, this robust and real self, cut off by defenses of character from the rest of the world, is quite vulnerable and fragile given that it is imaginary and propped up through external feed back. Person B is dimly aware of this and defends against it all the more, even desperately projecting his anxieties back onto person A, with the hope of shoring up his ego with salubrious validation. All of this happens without A or B acknowledging it, of course. Because to face up to it consciously is shocking, in that this is all anybody is doing or can do and it seems absurd when you realize how pathetic it is.

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    All dualized individuals are, like myself, better than @William at most things.
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    Not sure what you mean by a 'dualization experience'. Can you elaborate? I've lived with an SEI for 20 years and I don't think I've ever been 'healthy' for a consistent period of time. Si is just Si. Am I confident in it? Somewhat, although it isn't something that I had to learn from her, nor do I see it as a solution to my problems.
    Last edited by suedehead; 05-05-2014 at 01:48 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    I would say you can identify non-dualized people by their lack of successful relationships with others. Usually people who are 'dualized' are more well-rounded, easygoing (not trying to hammer their perspective down others' throats), laid-back, and happier. They're able to get along with more people than someone non-dualized.
    This is right. To rephrase it into Socionics terminology: often non-dualized people use their Mobilizing function too much (hammering down their own perspective down people's throat), dualized people focus on their ego functions and are therefore much more agreeable.

    I wish I could think of good internatiol examples, but right now, only Dutch examples come to mind...
    “I have never tried that before, so I think I should definitely be able to do that.” --- Pippi Longstocking

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    duality isn't a cosmic equalizer that tunes your brain into the right frequency. duality could e.g. make your ego functions even more disproportionately pronounced, so that you end up repressing your unvalued functions even more strongly because your duals keep encouraging your bad habits. this wouldn't improve your relations with other people, or make you more well-rounded, this would only strengthen the one-sidedness of your psyche (which in itself isn't a bad thing but more on that later). duality doesn't necessarily complete you, nor make you a more balanced person; all of these things depend on the person, their circumstances and how they're motivated to adapt to them. these bullshit notions need to be eradicated because they are more COSMO find-your-true-love-compatibility quiz than Jungian in spirit.

    that said, how well your functions are developed depends on what is demanded of you both externally and internally. for some people, being highly differentiated (e.g. Aylen being a fuckton of NF with zero ST capabilities) is possibly more beneficial, while and for others being less differentiated (e.g. lungs, lecky, aquagraph, among others being ambiguously N/S) is more beneficial in adapting to external circumstances. type is psychological one-sidedness by definition, but people have varying levels of one-sidedness depending upon what kind of things they need to deal with, so none of it is inherently any better or worse than the other.

    tl;dr people are not as predictable as socionics claims.
    Last edited by Radio; 05-05-2014 at 08:26 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by William View Post
    No way, Jose! Maybe in the land where you count sheep.
    Alright, you're on! Sheep counting contest, let's go!

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    I agree with @Radio to some extent. Basically imo it boils down to circumstance, a particular person and what one wants to focus on/what one's goals are.
    Duality might mean you meet smn you have a connection with and you both encourage each other to grow and develop and help each other fight your weaknesses and become more well-rounded... but it can also mean two people meeting and saying "ok, you do this and I do that, end of story" and then while they may be a functional tandem, this doesn't make them more well-rounded as separate human beings.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    duality could e.g. make your ego functions even more disproportionately pronounced, so that you end up repressing your unvalued functions even more strongly because your duals keep encouraging your bad habits.
    this is misconstrued. dual's strong functions are opposite to each other. they dampen and balance each other's ego. at least that's what i've read on this theory of dualization. but it made a lot of sense when i read it, take a look at this:

    ILE's all prevalent all encompassing base intuition is opposed by SEIs strong base sensing.
    LIE's all strong logic is opposed by ESI's strength in ethics.
    SLE's strong sensing is opposed by IEI's strong intuition. etc.

    the effect is achievement of balance between two opposite poles. duals make you less preoccupied with your ego functions, while alone each persists in their "bad ego habits".

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    duality isn't a cosmic equalizer that tunes your brain into the right frequency. duality could e.g. make your ego functions even more disproportionately pronounced, so that you end up repressing your unvalued functions even more strongly because your duals keep encouraging your bad habits. this wouldn't improve your relations with other people, or make you more well-rounded, this would only strengthen the one-sidedness of your psyche (which in itself isn't a bad thing but more on that later). duality doesn't necessarily complete you, nor make you a more balanced person; all of these things depend on the person, their circumstances and how they're motivated to adapt to them. these bullshit notions need to be eradicated because they are more COSMO find-your-true-love-compatibility quiz than Jungian in spirit.

    tl;dr people are not as predictable as socionics claims.
    Under this case, wouldn't it just be better for Socionics to either: A. throw out dualization or B. create an extension that shows the long term effects of any intertype relation? Because, theoretically, there would be long term effects to any inter type relation, and the long term effects of duality wouldn't be really any more special compared to the long term effects of any other inter type relation (other than the fact that it's duality).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevero View Post
    this is misconstrued. dual's strong functions are opposite to each other. they dampen and balance each other's ego. at least that's what i've read on this theory of dualization. but it made a lot of sense when i read it, take a look at this:

    ILE's all prevalent all encompassing base intuition is opposed by SEIs strong base sensing.
    LIE's all strong logic is opposed by ESI's strength in ethics.
    SLE's strong sensing is opposed by IEI's strong intuition. etc.

    the effect is achievement of balance between two opposite poles. duals make you less preoccupied with your ego functions, while alone each persists in their "bad ego habits".
    in theory, yes. but not necessarily in practice. people are inherently random and model A doesn't take into account randomness whatsoever, which is why you get this discrepancy between what the theory claims and reality, and i don't see the point in a theory that doesn't accurately represent reality anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuralia View Post
    Under this case, wouldn't it just be better for Socionics to either: A. throw out dualization
    just to be clear, i do agree that duality is the most comfortable of intertype relationships and i do think people on average tend to end up with their own quadra/duals more frequently than others. i just don't agree that 1). duality is always a positive experience 2). duality makes you a more well-rounded person or somehow better at your life than you were before (it makes you more comfortable being yourself, maybe, but functions aren't that simplistic). 3). duality makes you "laid-back, easy-going and happier" as William said. i've been surrounded by duals all my life, and while it's good to have the other person be on a similar wavelength, it doesn't transform you from a troglodyte into a civilized human being. even among duals you probably need to have some other things in common for it to work, etc.

    Quote Originally Posted by Neuralia View Post
    B. create an extension that shows the long term effects of any intertype relation? Because, theoretically, there would be long term effects to any inter type relation, and the long term effects of duality wouldn't be really any more special compared to the long term effects of any other inter type relation (other than the fact that it's duality).
    i agree, and this is an interesting idea. i'll have to mull over this a bit.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Radio View Post
    in theory, yes. but not necessarily in practice. people are inherently random and model A doesn't take into account randomness whatsoever, which is why you get this discrepancy between what the theory claims and reality, and i don't see the point in a theory that doesn't accurately represent reality anyway.
    gotcha. i take part in these discussions premising ceteris paribus, which makes all such extraneous and random random influences of no implication or relevance. otherwise it becomes impossible to discuss socionics (else any socionics discussions could be concluded with "but other extra-model A factors ..."). this seems to be the main difference in our approaches.

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    The best sign someone is not dualized is that they believe in the mask they created for themselves and others. In other words, they don't know who they really are
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    Quote Originally Posted by Amber View Post
    How do you think it's easiest to tell if someone has gone through some dualizing experiences
    It's doubtful there is clear way to tell had someone significant good IR communications or not.
    This should reduce the possibility to try bad IR friendship and pair relations. As the human should understand that can be better.

    > or at least is attuned to their dual-seeking function?

    anyone is
    in case of having significant good IR experience this should be more conscious to understand what you want and value the most
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    In my opinion, all types will eventually aspire to be similar to their dual

    The primary difference between dualized and non-dualized, is that dualized types receive optimal support. This means they receive support from someone who isn't forcing themselves.

    For example, if you are an EII chances are you may aspire to be LSE in some ways. For an LSE, using Te & Si is as simple as taking a breath. An EII/LSE bond, ideally, can be beneficial for both parties.

    So yeah, basically, non-dualized aren't receiving optimal support for who they aspire to be

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    Good question, I've been trying to solve this question myself. I assumed it'll be in how favorable the person is to your own conversation. I've found that two people who say similar things from a dramatically different point of view do indeed work well together, but I have no way to confirm or deny this.

    I don't know that a person is made better by conversing with the right person. I do know however, that some people understand some concepts better than others. But what do I know? It's not me, unfortunately, if it was, we'd have some miraculous feats of engineering occuring.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stray Cat View Post
    In my opinion, all types will eventually aspire to be similar to their dual. The primary difference between dualized and non-dualized, is that dualized types receive optimal support. This means they receive support from someone who isn't forcing themselves.

    For example, if you are an EII chances are you may aspire to be LSE in some ways. For an LSE, using Te & Si is as simple as taking a breath. An EII/LSE bond, ideally, can be beneficial for both parties.

    So yeah, basically, non-dualized aren't receiving optimal support for who they aspire to be
    I'm not fond of EIEs.. and have never thought of aspiring to be like them. I don't really understand the appeal.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGF View Post
    I'm not fond of EIEs.. and have never thought of aspiring to be like them. I don't really understand the appeal.
    Gulenko seems to like them. Maybe he has some explanation on his website.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    DarkAngelFireWolf69 seems to like them. Maybe he has some explanation on his website.
    From the many EIEs he has typed I can only get along with Suspiria tbh. A lot of the female EIEs he types seem to think of themselves as SLE, some have... problems, such as being bipolar. They can be irritating to say the least. EIEs seem to be ppl of extremes, when something is wrong it is VERY wrong and when things are well with hem they seem to be exceptional and do interesting things.. however I don't find myself wanting to be like them. They can keep the spotlight and be social and so on.. I don't really care to usurp that, prefer to be in the background making sure things work as they should. I'm very comfortable just being a stereotypical MBTI ISTP doing my thing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGF View Post
    From the many EIEs he has typed I can only get along with Suspiria tbh. A lot of the female EIEs he types seem to think of themselves as SLE, some have... problems, such as being bipolar. They can be irritating to say the least. EIEs seem to be ppl of extremes, when something is wrong it is VERY wrong and when things are well with hem they seem to be exceptional and do interesting things.. however I don't find myself wanting to be like them. They can keep the spotlight and be social and so on.. I don't really care to usurp that, prefer to be in the background making sure things work as they should. I'm very comfortable just being a stereotypical MBTI ISTP doing my thing.
    I don't want to BE one of my Duals, but I like every one that I've met.

    Some more than others, though.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I don't want to BE one of my Duals, but I like every one that I've met.

    Some more than others, though.
    maybe your duals don't have more red flags than a Chinese communist parade.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGF View Post
    I'm not fond of EIEs.. and have never thought of aspiring to be like them. I don't really understand the appeal.
    I hear ya. I was actually talking from a pure functional perspective. According to my theory, LSIs would desire to be in atmospheres where others are positively predisposed to them (Fe), but only be in conjunction with Ni, where such an atmosphere provided personal meaning to the LSI. This isn't necessarily something the LSI would be aware of consciously.

    With an LSI being TiSe, they'd require the FeNi balance to "feel whole" or adequately complimented. Again, this isn't about LSI wanting to be EIE, but about LSI feeling inspired by what the FeNi functions bring to his/her life.

    All according to theory, obviously

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGF View Post
    From the many EIEs he has typed I can only get along with Suspiria tbh. A lot of the female EIEs he types seem to think of themselves as SLE, some have... problems, such as being bipolar. They can be irritating to say the least. EIEs seem to be ppl of extremes, when something is wrong it is VERY wrong and when things are well with hem they seem to be exceptional and do interesting things.. however I don't find myself wanting to be like them. They can keep the spotlight and be social and so on.. I don't really care to usurp that, prefer to be in the background making sure things work as they should. I'm very comfortable just being a stereotypical MBTI ISTP doing my thing.
    You might be disliking the bipolar disorder instead of the TIM. Other aspects could be responsible for it also, furthermore I think some of Gulenko's typings can be distorted because of nonverbal classifications taking priority when dichotomies are present in the subject on equal measure, which is a method that can fasten up the process but it can easily fuck it up too (The classic "Up right EJ, Up left EP, Down right IJ, Down left IP, I think I have read a forum member's G results where nonverbal took priority over functions and as a result she got ENFj-H).

    More things to take into account are the fact that @Suspiria is second emotions while you are probably third emotion, and the rest of those EIE's are first emotion, some of them may even have a contradictory logical function to you. That's the thing with ITR, it can be present almost only under the specific circunstances that would make two TIMs like or appreciate each other.

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    Quote Originally Posted by RBRS View Post
    You might be disliking the bipolar disorder instead of the TIM. Other aspects could be responsible for it also, furthermore I think some of DarkAngelFireWolf69's typings can be distorted because of nonverbal classifications taking priority when dichotomies are present in the subject on equal measure, which is a method that can fasten up the process but it can easily fuck it up too (The classic "Up right EJ, Up left EP, Down right IJ, Down left IP, I think I have read a forum member's G results where nonverbal took priority over functions and as a result she got ENFj-H).

    More things to take into account are the fact that @Suspiria is second emotions while you are probably third emotion, and the rest of those EIE's are first emotion, some of them may even have a contradictory logical function to you. That's the thing with ITR, it can be present almost only under the specific circunstances that would make two TIMs like or appreciate each other.
    I guess. I don't like drama & ppl who cause drama: reasons I hated my grandmother as well. A lot of "Fe" unless well done seems cringe, disingenuous and embarrassing to me. Personally I tend to be blunt, and upfront, my Fe is absolutely terrible. My Fi in comparison is actually very good. On top of that I avoid people who have problems upstairs. I don't wish to end up like my IT buddy where he got a call that his bipolar wife jumped out the window, landed on a kid, open fractures in both legs and both are in the hospital. The only upsides to that happening was that nobody died and when she went manic again, she was confined to bed and couldn't go out on a spending spree like usual. He has a kid and the kid has bpd as well (19 yo). Just goes to show how one mistake can ruin one's life, lineage and legacy.

    I prefer sane down to earth people, the less drama and trouble the better.
    Last edited by SGF; 04-27-2021 at 04:42 AM.

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    I realize that my words may be hurtful so I'd like to clarify a few things:

    1. I don't think all EIEs are "bad".
    2. Having problems does not make people morally reprehensible, its just unfortunate imo.
    3. I may be SLI with Fe PolR and EIEs are my conflictors. Maybe Gulenko was wrong and I'm not LSI-H, I'm just a standard SLI.
    4. The cutting conclusions I make regarding this topic stem from decades long personal experience. I chose to be like this fully aware of the consequences. It is my subjective/personal choice.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SGF View Post
    3. I may be SLI with Fe PolR and EIEs are my conflictors. Maybe Gulenko was wrong and I'm not LSI-H, I'm just a standard SLI.
    You seem to prefer IEI over EIE's.
    I find ESE's much more interesting people than SEI's. It is just case of it creative has much more immediate influence. I have to tell ESE's that I do not want stress my Ti that much [which would also mean self suffocating Ni - and I would fall into non verbal autistic state - so no thanks].
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    Quote Originally Posted by BrightDemonSheep96 View Post
    You seem to prefer IEI over EIE's.
    I find ESE's much more interesting people than SEI's. It is just case of it creative has much more immediate influence. I have to tell ESE's that I do not want stress my Ti that much [which would also mean self suffocating Ni - and I would fall into non verbal autistic state - so no thanks].
    ^^' I do like IEIs and SEI.

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    For the record, I don't start drama but I have a tendency to continue it. Keep that in mind, I might not be that pleasant, @SGF.

    My whole track record here is of being lighthearted but that's not all there it is to me.

    Even though I'm still a clown :^)
    Last edited by Suspiria; 04-27-2021 at 01:40 PM.
    "хотите —
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  31. #31
    Haikus SGF's Avatar
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    TIM
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    Quote Originally Posted by Suspiria View Post
    For the record, I don't trust drama but I have a tendency to continue it. Keep that in mind, I might not be that pleasant, @SGF.

    My whole track record here is of being lighthearted but that's not all there it is to me.

    Even though I'm still a clown :^)
    Xd lol ok.


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