View Poll Results: What was Trakovsky's type?

Voters
2. You may not vote on this poll
  • ILE (ENTp)

    0 0%
  • SEI (ISFp)

    0 0%
  • ESE (ESFj)

    0 0%
  • LII (INTj)

    0 0%
  • SLE (ESTp)

    0 0%
  • IEI (INFp)

    1 50.00%
  • EIE (ENFj)

    0 0%
  • LSI (ISTj)

    1 50.00%
  • SEE (ESFp)

    0 0%
  • ILI (INTp)

    0 0%
  • LIE (ENTj)

    0 0%
  • ESI (ISFj)

    0 0%
  • IEE (ENFp)

    0 0%
  • SLI (ISTp)

    0 0%
  • LSE (ESTj)

    0 0%
  • EII (INFj)

    0 0%
Multiple Choice Poll.
Results 1 to 26 of 26

Thread: Andrei Tarkovsky

  1. #1
    suedehead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,101
    Mentioned
    199 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default Andrei Tarkovsky

    Type?



  2. #2
    Creepy-male

    Default

    I'd say Beta NF. I haven't seen as many of his works yet than I would like to. However, the vid with him posing in the woods, sitting on a tree waxing poetic about solitude is so soaked in the image building mentality of beta NF that it isn't even funny.

  3. #3
    Haikus silke's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    TIM
    Ni-IEI sx/sp
    Posts
    4,756
    Mentioned
    415 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    LSI

    on SSS the votes are equally split between LSI, ILI, SLI and EII
    http://sss.socioland.ru/people/view.php?id_people=7283













  4. #4
    suedehead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,101
    Mentioned
    199 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    Bump.

  5. #5
    Haikus
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Location
    Berlin
    TIM
    LSI 5w6 sx/so
    Posts
    5,418
    Mentioned
    144 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    He VIs as a Logical type (somewhere along the lines of SLI-LSI) ...but he's way too visionary in his films to be what he looks like. I'm quite certain he's a Ni type (just like Von Trier) , probably Beta NF.

  6. #6
    suedehead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,101
    Mentioned
    199 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    "Some sort of pressure must exist; the artist exists because the world is not perfect. Art would be useless if the world were perfect, as man wouldn’t look for harmony but would simply live in it. Art is born out of an ill-designed world."

    "A man writes because he is tormented, because he doubts. He needs to constantly prove to himself and the others that he’s worth something. And if I know for sure that I’m a genius? Why write then? What the hell for?"

    "Modern mass culture, aimed at the 'consumer', the civilisation of prosthetics, is crippling people's souls, setting up barriers between man and the crucial questions of his existence, his consciousness of himself as a spiritual being."

    "Never try to convey your idea to the audience - it is a thankless and senseless task. Show them life, and they’ll find within themselves the means to assess and appreciate it."

    "The director’s task is to recreate life, its movement, its contradictions, its dynamic and conflicts. It is his duty to reveal every iota of the truth he has seen, even if not everyone finds that truth acceptable. Of course an artist can lose his way, but even his mistakes are interesting provided they are sincere. For they represent the reality of his inner life, of the peregrinations and struggle into which the external world has thrown him."

    "It is a mistake to talk about the artist looking for his subject. In fact, the subject grows within him like a fruit and begins to demand expression. It is like childbirth. The poet has nothing to be proud of. He is not master of the situation, but a servant. Creative work is his only possible form of existence, and his every work is like a deed he has no power to annul. For him to be aware that the sequence of such deeds is due and ripe, that it lies in the very nature of things, he has to have faith in the idea; for only faith interlocks the system of images for which read system of life."

    "It is obvious that art cannot teach anyone anything, since in four thousand years humanity has learnt nothing at all. We should long ago have become angels had we been capable of paying attention to the experience of art, and allowing ourselves to be changed in accordance with the ideals it expresses. Art only has the capacity, through shock and catharsis, to make the human soul receptive to good. It’s ridiculous to imagine that people can be taught to be good…Art can only give food – a jolt – the occasion – for psychical experience."

    "We can express our feelings regarding the world around us either by poetic or by descriptive means. I prefer to express myself metaphorically. Let me stress: metaphorically, not symbolically. A symbol contains within itself a definite meaning, certain intellectual formula, while metaphor is an image. An image possessing the same distinguishing features as the world it represents. An image — as opposed to a symbol — is indefinite in meaning. One cannot speak of the infinite world by applying tools that are definite and finite. We can analyse the formula that constitutes a symbol, while metaphor is a being-within-itself, it's a monomial. It falls apart at any attempt of touching it."

  7. #7
    suedehead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,101
    Mentioned
    199 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default

    “This world is not a place where we can be happy. It wasn’t created for man’s happiness, though many believe this is the reason of our existence. I think we are here to fight, so that good and evil can clash within us, and good may prevail, thus enriching us spiritually. It’s difficult to say whether we are happy or not: it doesn’t depend on us…There are times when one regrets being born, but life also gives us surprising things that, alone, are worth living. The issue of happiness doesn’t exist for me: happiness as such doesn’t exist.”

    “It is because the twentieth century has seen the rise of a kind of emotional inflation. When we read in a newspaper that two million people have been butchered in Indonesia, it makes as much impression on us as an account of our hockey team winning a match. The same degree of impression! We fail to notice the monstrous discrepancy between these two events. The channels of our perception have been smoothed out to the point where we are no longer aware. However, I don’t want to preach about this. It may be that without it life would be impossible. Only the point is that there are some artists who do make us feel the true measure of things. It is a burden which they carry throughout their lives, and we must be thankful to them.”

    “Let everything that’s been planned come true. Let them believe. And let them have a laugh at their passions. Because what they call passion actually is not some emotional energy, but just the friction between their souls and the outside world. And most important, let them believe in themselves. Let them be helpless like children, because weakness is a great thing, and strength is nothing. When a man is just born, he is weak and flexible. When he dies, he is hard and insensitive. When a tree is growing, it’s tender and pliant. But when it’s dry and hard, it dies. Hardness and strength are death’s companions. Pliancy and weakness are expressions of the freshness of being. Because what has hardened will never win.”

  8. #8
    suedehead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,101
    Mentioned
    199 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default


  9. #9
    suedehead's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2014
    Posts
    3,101
    Mentioned
    199 Post(s)
    Tagged
    1 Thread(s)

    Default


  10. #10
    Impermanence para's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    976
    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    SLI i think.
    “Not to understand is profound; to understand is shallow. Not to understand is to be on the inside; to understand is to be on the outside.”

  11. #11
    Kill4Me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    TIM
    SLE-Ti 8w7 so/sp
    Posts
    2,316
    Mentioned
    228 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    ILI-Ni 5w6 sp/sx

    https://stackemup.livejournal.com/3887.html

    https://www.pinterest.com/socionics/ili-ni/

    For his enneagram type, I initially had him as 4w5. He presented superficially as the 4w5's sensitive and emotionally refined gestalt. That doesn't work because 1) he's ILI-Ni and 2) another gestalt fits him better. After watching some more interviews, the solitary, self-sufficient, detached gestalt of 5w6 is a better fit. The energy is too dry for a 4w5. Sp/sx is still clear. He has that alone/fortressed-off quality of sp/sx, highly selective of the people he associates with if anybody, and is entirely self-possessed and authentic in his artistic pursuits. There's no social in sight.

    For his socionics type, Ni-dom is obvious. He has a rich, highly nuanced, detailed inner world, a penchant for counter-intuition, and strong subjective component in his work. His movies have that one-of-a-kind, never been done before quality that belies a unique inner reality. Counter-intuition is an intrinsic feature of Ni. Tarkovsky also sucked at at real world, practical stuff. This is most typical of Ni-dom. However, when Ni-doms find a way to bridge their inner world with the outer world, that's where you largely see them coming out of their inner world to interact with the external environment and what they typically bring is something original and unique. So many of the Ni-subtypes of Ni-dom find this bridge through artistic creation and/or philosophy (though not as a rule). [On a sidenote, this is what makes typings like IEI for Obama so ridiculous. Obama is highly competent at outer world stuff....as just one example, he was an energizer-bunny star fundraiser for the democratic party just as a freshman senator.]

    The question is whether Tarkovsky's counter-intuitions are expressed by virtue of Te-creative or Fe-creative. Ni/Te converts inner worlds into new modes of thought. Ni/Fe converts inner worlds into new modes of expression. Te-creative is right there. Tarkovksy's work doesn't purge out the counterintuition through a passionate, intense Fe-creative; it supports the counterintuition through a dry, cerebral external structure. The last scene of Stalker is a classic example. Tarkovsky constructed the scene at the end of Stalker such that you cannot really determine whether Monkey the Cripple is moving the glasses through telekinesis or whether its being moved by the rumbling of the train. This external structure cuts into the philosophical core of the movie and externalize his own inner world, yet consists of nothing more than props, timing and movement. Ni/Te cognition underscored.
    Last edited by Kill4Me; 11-12-2018 at 04:35 PM.

  12. #12
    Kill4Me's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2011
    TIM
    SLE-Ti 8w7 so/sp
    Posts
    2,316
    Mentioned
    228 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    My revision of Tarkovsky's enneagram type (see above) confronts the same instinctual distinction that got Nietzsche tagged and bagged in the 5w6 bin. Nietzsche is ILI-Ni 5w6 sx/so --- the solitary gestalt of 5w6. The self-sufficient, solitary gestalt of 5w6 can take on overlapping behaviors with the sensitive, refined gestalt of 4w5 so its important to grasp the instinctual distinctions. Avoidance by 4w5 is rooted in a deep emotional sensitivity. Avoidance by the 5 is just based in the natural place of comfort in their mind and deeper worldview of a gulf/separation between themselves and others. Detachment is central to the five fixation. [my piecemeal enneagram descriptions make for a better primer than R & H's descriptions because R & H's descriptions entangle multiple types into single types....my descriptions gives you each character type in its purest form....the type four description has yet to be released but will clear up all the misconceptions that has just about ever INFx girl typing themselves 4w5]

    On the level, enneagram doesn't implicate behavior in a broader context, so typically there are other types in the enneagram model that can do a better job explaining a person's behavior for a particular occasion. Rather, good typing is based upon the finer instinctual distinctions between the types....what makes a lot of people terrible at enneagram typing is they just look for the type descriptions that best explains a person's behavior at a general level. They don't grasp the instinctual distinctions (EIIs have this problem). Keep in mind that each enneagram character type conveys its own particular instinctive truth. That instinctive truth presents physically and psychologically through a gestalt. I discovered and documented the gestalt for each character type (wing included) sufficient to produce the only valid breakdown for each type, wing and stack. Types are nature, not nurture.

  13. #13

    Join Date
    Sep 2018
    TIM
    EIE-Ni
    Posts
    137
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    IEI-Ni 4w5

  14. #14
    Impermanence para's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    976
    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Why is he typed as Ni lead?
    “Not to understand is profound; to understand is shallow. Not to understand is to be on the inside; to understand is to be on the outside.”

  15. #15
    soundofconfusion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Berlin
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    405
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

  16. #16
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    3,298
    Mentioned
    228 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    too cool for typing

  17. #17
    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Posts
    3,165
    Mentioned
    77 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    IEI.

    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

  18. #18

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    10,751
    Mentioned
    966 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    too cool for typing
    he mb LSI. should be pleasant for you

    he's difinetely J type. "Stalker" movie was several times remade from the start.

    I was much impressed by this movie after 1st watching in ~18 yo. Probably, partly because of Kaidanovskiy, which can be my dual EII.
    The most, I've liked is art work and acting - which create an overal impression of abandon place beyond the time and reason.
    Much of Ni there. Everything passes. Only holy senses stay.
    USSR was anti-religious until the end of 1989-1991. In Stalker the main idea is religion-like, while it was made 10 year before that. Ideological obstacles needed to use indirect forms and this has made the movie's ideas passing easer to the unconsciousness, to the region of imagination. This is an example, when a fight of the opposites was needed to make a decent.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  19. #19
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    3,298
    Mentioned
    228 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    SLI more probably, there's just not Se in his movies, nor Ti. it's all sensations, slow pace, recalling the past (Si), tons of references to someone else's art (Te), experimental ideas (Ne), potential in everything (Ne), involvement to human nature (Fi).

    Te-Fi HA: to love.

  20. #20
    soundofconfusion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Berlin
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    405
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    “We can express our feelings regarding the world around us either by poetic or by descriptive means. I prefer to express myself metaphorically. Let me stress: metaphorically, not symbolically. A symbol contains within itself a definite meaning, certain intellectual formula, while metaphor is an image. An image possessing the same distinguishing features as the world it represents. An image — as opposed to a symbol — is indefinite in meaning. One cannot speak of the infinite world by applying tools that are definite and finite. We can analyse the formula that constitutes a symbol, while metaphor is a being-within-itself, it's a monomial. It falls apart at any attempt of touching it.”

    he's a romantic and a dreamer and he wrote a book called "sculpting in time". he's a Ni dom (intuition of time) that doesn't value Te.

    “I have always liked people who can't adapt themselves to life pragmatically.”

    IEI, without a doubt.

    an example of ILI filmmakers would be godard and kubrick.
    Last edited by soundofconfusion; 05-30-2019 at 04:49 PM.

  21. #21

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    10,751
    Mentioned
    966 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    SLI more probably, there's just not Se in his movies
    there is Ni - the main and in good form

    > recalling the past (Si)

    imagination - N.
    the movie's genre would be mystic sci-fi - N also. more Ni in this case, as it's more philosophical, than technological

    > tons of references to someone else's art (Te), experimental ideas (Ne)

    it's supportive, not the main there

    > potential in everything (Ne), involvement to human nature (Fi).

    the movie is about what is above people and their reason. not about human nature and it's possibilities. it's about a human is alike insect - rather limited being compared to others and to this complex world. in the "zone" rational mind is useless - this zone represents the world and the place of people in it

    I recommend you to read the original book to understand the movie better.

    it's not deltish. it's Ni movie which no Si type would make so good
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  22. #22
    ooo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2017
    Location
    the bootie
    Posts
    3,298
    Mentioned
    228 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    good analysis, but somewhat too specific. he's made 2 films based on sci-fiction novels in his life, and he changed the plot of the books somehow: in Stalker, when the room of desires is approached, every character thinks of themselves only, there's no space for "collective good", which is instead the aim in the original Roadside Picnic book; in Solaris other things were changed, indeed Tarkovskij didn't really appreciate the sci-fi genre and was willing to bring more depth with a new kind of sci-film, he changed the plot of Solaris too.

    I liked your analysis, it's true that we are like insects in Tarkovsky's Stalker, yet there's something greater inside of us to which we submit, without knowing and understanding it, we act based on our needs, desires, and it's this biological nature to awaken our conscience (Si). there's a great deal of psychological insight in T.'s work, in Stalker the characters keep asking themselves why do they do and want the things they do an want. the characters are in a mission to realize all their potential, ultimately it will be devoid of collective meaning, and relying on one's inner nature only (Ne-Fi).

    this speech:

    "let everything that's ever been planned come true, let them believe, and let them have a laugh at their passions, because what they call passion is not some emotional energy, but it's just the friction between their souls and the outside world. and most important, let them believe in themselves. let them be helpless like children, because weakness is a great thing, and strength is nothing. when a man is just born he is weak and flexible, when he dies, he's hard and insensitive. when a tree is just born, it's tender and pliant, but when it's hard and dry, it dies. hardness and strength are death's companions; pliancy and weakness are expressions of the freshness of being. because what has hardened will never win."

    This is all Si, Ne, Fi. Te is in his use of innovative methods, the real time sequences, the alternation of colors, the special effects, are all meant to bring the Si experience into life in the most appropriate way. It might look like all visionary stuff, and it is, but he achieves this with an excellent technique and knowhow of the tools used.

    ***



    Last edited by ooo; 05-31-2019 at 08:47 AM.

  23. #23
    soundofconfusion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2019
    Location
    Berlin
    TIM
    LII
    Posts
    405
    Mentioned
    12 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I've rewatched Stalker yesterday, such an immensely beautiful film. the dialogues of the "writer" feel almost autobiographical for Tarkovsky. SLI seems like such a weird typing for him, especially since he was very often critical of laws and pragmatism in his films. the fillm made me even more convinced that he's an IEI.

  24. #24
    Impermanence para's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2018
    Posts
    976
    Mentioned
    38 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    > recalling the past (Si)

    imagination - N.
    Is recollection and manipulation of sensory/experential images in the mind classified as N in your opinion? To think of something not related to current sensory experience, but may be a 'replay' of a previous one?
    “Not to understand is profound; to understand is shallow. Not to understand is to be on the inside; to understand is to be on the outside.”

  25. #25

    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Posts
    10,751
    Mentioned
    966 Post(s)
    Tagged
    3 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    To think of something not related to current sensory experience, but may be a 'replay' of a previous one?
    S is the current sensations only
    when you dream about your past - it's your imagination works, based on contents of your memory
    the most what you get should be created by your imagination which tries to construct the whole picture and missed details from some points of facts (traces of real sensations) you may keep still. also your mind can't understand what is real or not there

    how bad is peoples memory know in police work with witnesses
    normal people may easily give different discription of what happened even recently. and they often sure in what they say. they do not distinguish own imagination and facts - as for the mind it's all the same. the past is gone, you reconstruct it in the imagination

    at best to S may be related current/operative type of memory on sensations. it's not more than minutes. the longer time - the more doubtful to relate that to S

    S types should to have lesser of sensory facts distortions when think about the past. but when they think about other time - it's N, anyway
    Last edited by Sol; 08-17-2019 at 03:41 PM.
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

  26. #26
    a two horned unicorn renegade Heretic 007's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2015
    Location
    Logical supermacy torturing So(u)ls
    TIM
    ILE-C-I
    Posts
    4,564
    Mentioned
    196 Post(s)
    Tagged
    2 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by para View Post
    Why is he typed as Ni lead?


    Sounds like he is heavily captured in subjective flow of time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Groucho Marx
    I don’t care to belong to any club that will have me as a member.


    Due to Fi PoLR do not send PM's, please. 50/50 likelihood to get a reply if I'm going to even read your messages. Let's keep things public.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •