to Fi polrs:

[xerx]

For me (assuming I am one), it feels like you're navigating relationships with blinders on.

It's binary. You're either all in, or all out. Small bumps are magnified to feel like catastrophic relationship enders. Friendliness from someone can feel like riding a wave outside of your control.

Unless the consequences don't matter (ie. the person is as bad at relationships as you are, you'll never see them again, etc.), new acquaintanceships can be unpleasant because of the fear of transgressing on someone's values. Meeting new people feels like worlds colliding.


There's a sort of unintentional lethargy when it comes to building relationships - or sharp spikes of relationship-building activity. As was said, it's binary.


And to people who say that Fi Polrs need constant "feedback" because they're inept at reading signals, which is why they have duals who LOLOLOL or all the time: go away! We're not that bad at reading people's intentions. (even though it'd be fun to have a dual like that).


I hope those aren't just my own idiosyncrasies. Or worse, if everyone was like that.

^ Just wanted to add something to this. If this is functionics 101 to you, then sorry:

Feelings of helplessness aren't specific to Polrs. All weak functions create these feelings. The difference between dual-seeking and Polr is that the latter exhibits an insecurity which stems from feeling personally obligated to act in a way that you're incompetent in, the fear of being exposed as a fraud, etc.


Criticism to the Polr is a blow to how you think others perceive you. Even casually mentioning a situation with no hint of offense having taken place can trigger a paranoid reaction.

Exposing the Polr is an easy pain to inflict because of the target's hyper-paranoia and lack of confidence. Your Polr-incompetence is something you try to hide. Some go to elaborate lengths to compensate for their weakness.


Ideally, in-quadra interactions should mitigate most of the above effects because of the assured attitude of indifference to the Polr function by your quadra mates. You can feel relaxed in not having to use it.


I'm still not sure what happens when more "assertive" people choose to flaunt their Polrs. Do they still feel an undercurrent of the above-mentioned insecurities?

[JuJu]

I think SLE's might actually be more in danger of bonding with the wrong people than they are of not bonding. Beta is a pretty closely knit quadra, it's bonded, it's passionate.

keeping things superficial is NOT beta at all.

Yes to SLEs making (occasionally) poor judgments about who to bond with… Touchy subject if it's a current friend or past relationship that hits home… Even if you're trusted not to beat it into the ground, it's disrespect at worst/uselessly critical at best. (Watch how quickly the conversation shifts topic, or into a justification.) Someone who's been written off - that's a different reaction. Bring up a psycho ex and it's good for a laugh, but if you've got a psycho ex, he/she may be thrown back at you in the same spirit.

Also agree about betas - the ones who want to get to know each other, anyway - push past 'superficial' quickly… A wise beta once said: "if there's someone you want to know, the best way to get to know them is by sleeping with them." (Actually, that might've been me who said it… Your mileage may vary

[JuJu]

I'm still not sure what happens when more "assertive" people choose to flaunt their Polrs. Do they still feel an undercurrent of the above-mentioned insecurities?

The answer's not the kinda thing you'd want to get out on the internet… (And by "you" I mean... not me.)

[FDG]

EDIT: Sometimes my friends want to succeed at my expense, that doesn't make them not my friends.

Really? I don't understand how this can be possible.

[JWC3]

Really? I don't understand how this can be possible.

Well for the most part if someone is close to me then any transgressions of theirs just sort of get dealt with at the time. I really don't hold grudges against people when they wrong me, I can't really. For instance my friend in college came home late one night and started screaming at me to do a bunch of his household chores, in that instance he offended me and even if it seems trite I felt wronged, so I tackled him into our wall.

Rather than deal with the possibility that his actions were a long term comment on our friendship, I just set the precedent that if he comes home late at night and starts screaming at me, I tackle him. The next day, he and I were chummy as ever, because why wouldn't we be?

Perhaps that's not quite what you're talking about though.

EDIT: What's an instance where you were betrayed? I could try and think of a similar story from my own history and we could compare.

[Erk]

Being impressionable is a sign of weakness. It's not the lunatics fault you have no sense of self. Stop blaming others for your own problems.

[FDG]

EDIT: What's an instance where you were betrayed? I could try and think of a similar story from my own history and we could compare.

It didn't (and doesn't) happen that frequently, mostly because I learnt to avoid situations where it may happen. The fist that comes to mind is the following: I was taking part in an (amateur) race with a friend. A fairly challenging race: 230 kms in the mountains. During the first part of the race, he was having some trouble and I kept on waiting him and placing myself right before him to "cut the wind" so to speak. At a certain point during the final stages, I was the one having some troubles and he told me "I want to finish quickly, see you at the end". Needless to say I was fairly pissed

[JWC3]

It didn't (and doesn't) happen that frequently, mostly because I learnt to avoid situations where it may happen. The fist that comes to mind is the following: I was taking part in an (amateur) race with a friend. A fairly challenging race: 230 kms in the mountains. During the first part of the race, he was having some trouble and I kept on waiting him and placing myself right before him to "cut the wind" so to speak. At a certain point during the final stages, I was the one having some troubles and he told me "I want to finish quickly, see you at the end". Needless to say I was fairly pissed

Did you still talk? I mean I can't think of a specific sports example myself but certainly something like that has had to of happened at one point. I would likely of just called my friends out on it, they likely would joke that if I was better at sports there wouldn't be a problem, then after a day or so at most it would likely just become a funny story.

Then that's just sorta how it goes. Pretty much no matter how pissed I get over time it just becomes a funny story and if there were any initial feelings of betrayal they never last and to that end I don't remember those situations as negative.

[FDG]

Did you still talk? I mean I can't think of a specific sports example myself but certainly something like that has had to of happened at one point. I would likely of just called my friends out on it, they likely would joke that if I was better at sports there wouldn't be a problem, then after a day or so at most it would likely just become a funny story.

Yeah, he's still my friend and I do spend time with him etc. But my trust in him as gone down a notch, at least when it comes to reciprocating in potentially "difficult" situations.

[Satan]

Yeah, he's still my friend and I do spend time with him etc. But my trust in him as gone down a notch, at least when it comes to reciprocating in potentially "difficult" situations.

Two notches, or one?

[Satan]

Being impressionable is a sign of weakness. It's not the lunatics fault you have no sense of self. Stop blaming others for your own problems.

Showing weakness is a sign of strength.

[Satan]

Hmp, If Fi is what you define it as, maybe. (but that definition is far too shallow, narrow and unecompassing for one element)

But than, Fi Polr doesn't mean you have NO Fi, it's just pretty stupid. I think SLE's might actually be more in danger of bonding with the wrong people than they are of not bonding. Beta is a pretty closely knit quadra, it's bonded, it's passionate.

keeping things superficial is NOT beta at all. (i usually point at the gamma's for that, but than, i'm superficial, so alpha's can be too (so probably NTR)).

I'm not sure your response isn't "just theory" and no meat...

I don't even know if I'm SLE, or not, but I really can't be bothered bonding with the wrong people. It sounds like a waste of time that won't go anywhere at all.

But hell I'm talking to you.

[FDG]

Two notches, or one?

One, I guess.

[Satan]

One, I guess.

So it'd mild, and you wouldn't bring it up normally, other than somewhere relevant like this.

Sometimes it's hard not to hold things against people. But it's not always in proportion to the event.

Like it's a kind of double up - that they'd do that, and that they did it.

[JWC3]

@FDG That's completely fair. I do stuff like that all the time. You count that as betrayal? To say you're not going to be breaking wind for this guy anytime soon, but getting a beer together is fine, makes it seem... Not that bad, really.

[Reficulris]

I don't even know if I'm SLE, or not, but I really can't be bothered bonding with the wrong people. It sounds like a waste of time that won't go anywhere at all.

But hell I'm talking to you.

Talking =/= bonding, you should be safe.

[Reficulris]

It didn't (and doesn't) happen that frequently, mostly because I learnt to avoid situations where it may happen. The fist that comes to mind is the following: I was taking part in an (amateur) race with a friend. A fairly challenging race: 230 kms in the mountains. During the first part of the race, he was having some trouble and I kept on waiting him and placing myself right before him to "cut the wind" so to speak. At a certain point during the final stages, I was the one having some troubles and he told me "I want to finish quickly, see you at the end". Needless to say I was fairly pissed

Yeah, something like that would bother me only initially and would probably make me less likely to help him again if the situation ever came up again (although helping people gives me kinda some sense of satisfaction, so I might still do it for my own sake).

For me betrayal would need to be fairly "bad" for me to actively cut someone out of my life. Once a friend slept with someone I was involved with, that was the end of the friendship. Also, active undercutting of my goals has been a reason to drop someone in the past. Finally, I kinda suffer people who talk behind my back fairly badly, one occasion isn't enough to sever bonds but if it's a theme i'll get them out of my social environment.

Interesting enough, borrowing money and never repaying it is not betreyal to me, i think most of my friends owe me large sums of money if i'd bother to keep tabs and i'm usually contributing more than others to social events. I think i'm operating under the assumption that if I ever have less money than I do now they'll take up their part of the expenses, but its not explicit and i'm not sure if it's likely either.

[FDG]

Interesting enough, borrowing money and never repaying it is not betreyal to me,

Yeah I wouldn't care about that either, don't know exactly why.

[Aylen]

Talking =/= bonding, you should be safe.

http://www.truthaboutdeception.com/a...ttachment.html



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[FDG]

@FDG That's completely fair. I do stuff like that all the time. You count that as betrayal? To say you're not going to be breaking wind for this guy anytime soon, but getting a beer together is fine, makes it seem... Not that bad, really.

Well, I used to consider him one of my closest friends (perhaps wrongly so), and after that I didn't anymore, and I consider it "bad" from that point of view. But yes sure I don't have feelings of hatred towards him.

[JWC3]

Well, I used to consider him one of my closest friends (perhaps wrongly so), and after that I didn't anymore, and I consider it "bad" from that point of view. But yes sure I don't have feelings of hatred towards him.

Well in that sense I completely empathize. I guess I got caught up in the more grandiose connotations of the word.

[Reficulris]

@lungs:
i also think it shows in kinda a naief orientation towards potential partners. I usually am not aware if someone likes me (leading to "I like you" ->"lolwut?!" moments). Alternatively, when I like someone I'll go into full fledged counter factual thinking mode (see
"he's just not that into you" for great examples).

Finally i I think it shows in a distaste of moral judgements in the categorical sense. While I do have intense dislikes for certain persons I rarely categorize them as "bad".

[ashlesha]

@lungs:
i also think it shows in kinda a naief orientation towards potential partners. I usually am not aware if someone likes me (leading to "I like you" ->"lolwut?!" moments). Alternatively, when I like someone I'll go into full fledged counter factual thinking mode (see
"he's just not that into you" for great examples).

i've seen this in eii descriptions, though. attributed to weak Se.

Finally i I think it shows in a distaste of moral judgements in the categorical sense. While I do have intense dislikes for certain persons I rarely categorize them as "bad".

does it just not occur to you, or is it something you actively resist doing?
not trying to stir shit, but i'm reminded of you telling another poster that the only correct way to deal with someone here is to put them on ignore..to me, that looks like a categorical judgment?

[Reficulris]

i've seen this in eii descriptions, though. attributed to weak Se.

Se wouldn't be my forte either, ok, meh so i thought that might be Fi polr

does it just not occur to you, or is it something you actively resist doing?
not trying to stir shit, but i'm reminded of you telling another poster that the only correct way to deal with someone here is to put them on ignore..to me, that looks like a categorical judgment?

It does not occur to me to make some kind of identity statement. So I don't go from user X has been agressive to me on the forum to user X is bad. I DO go to "I'll put him on ignore and advice others to do the same". I also feel bad for not being able to get through to them myself, but I'll tell myself that's it going to be pain so I ignore. But maybe you are right, there was something spite-like in that message, trying to make my distaste clear, so...dunno, maybe i'm more alergic to others' use of it and doing it myself hypocritically ;-)

Not sure if that's categorial. For instance, user Y might do exactly the same thing as user X but the timing is different. This time I don't ignore him and we proceed to have nice relations.

I think it's basically arbitrary, or maybe more due to instinct/feeling/luck that I categorize people into "for me" and "not for me". The second category is everyone who didn't capture my attention or alternatively, captured it in a bad way.

I can say that it shows up in my consciousness as either fear/repulsion or love/attraction whereas strangers trigger the first response until they talk to me and than i'll usually either click (put them in the loved catagory) or not click and i'll continue to avoid them.... maybe that's not too different from good/bad though, although it's certainly completely subjective and there is no logic or reason to it...

hmmm food for thought could be that i'm just not aware of my use of categories.


((as aside, or more elaboration on the above; I kinda see "Bad" as something that's...linked to rules, or regularities. Doing X is always bad, doing Y is always good etc etc. I have always had problems with rules in such sense and have always pointed out exceptions, reasons why rules like that were stupid (see my small outing in the religion threads, i most certainly have moral feelings about religious rules).

In that sense i'm not easily persuaded that someone is bad. However, when i meet someone I usually have a feeling or instinct about that person and i've learned to trust it. It usually filters bad people out. Not BAD as in the above, cuz i hang with a lot of sinners. but Bad people as in...not good for me, hard to explain... people who might betray me people who are not authentic in a way people who are not real...

So it's not like I'm arguing that I'm without moral taste, or without prejudice or without hate or spite, i'm not. It's just the a priori use of moral statements that gets on my nerves...))

[ashlesha]

are you bothered by retypings? more and more its harder to see you as not IEE but it could be confirmation bias ofc.

[lemontrees]

Final edit: I have seen Fi-PoLR overcompensation manifest and it looks sort of like... occasionally trying too hard and being controlling about things like values, behaviors, in situations in which it doesn't truly matter, or misreading and thinking that others' actions are a result of specific positive communications whereas they might not be rooted in these things (i.e. still using Fe-HA to read situations.)

It also kind of looks like going through all the motions of being very diplomatic but still not really knowing how you stand with others, nor knowing how to react to others' positive reactions to your behavior. So basically, like solving the Fi-PoLR on a "surface" level but still not managing to make deeper connections.

[DaftPunk]

It didn't (and doesn't) happen that frequently, mostly because I learnt to avoid situations where it may happen. The fist that comes to mind is the following: I was taking part in an (amateur) race with a friend. A fairly challenging race: 230 kms in the mountains. During the first part of the race, he was having some trouble and I kept on waiting him and placing myself right before him to "cut the wind" so to speak. At a certain point during the final stages, I was the one having some troubles and he told me "I want to finish quickly, see you at the end". Needless to say I was fairly pissed

LOL such an asshole. Even most Pros are more sportsmanlike during competition than your "friend"

[Becca]

Fi polr just has to do with being uncomfortable around groups of people. They are quote well in their relations but place them in a room with people unlike NFs and SFs that are social and connect to others they are uncomfortable and stand by the sidelines and don't interact much.

This is so true I see it in SLEs I know...It's cool about them because I feel that way too sometimes so it's like we have something in common. When this happens, we both give each other knowing looks that say "get me out of here".

[Becca]

I was friends with an SLE for years, and I noticed that although she loved being the center of attention, many times she felt awkward when meeting new people. Yet I was the only one who realized it because I was her friend. She was SOO insecure it was as bad as me. But she covered it up with her fake niceness and engaging them in conversation. I never had as much patience to talk for as long as she did

[Olduvai]

I believe the desire/need to have friends is pretty universal/human, and not necessarily type-related. I don't see that as being necessarily related to Fi. I view Fi as having better ability to perceive and gauge subjective feelings of like/dislike, not necessarily to be inclined to want more friends.

#1 - In Fi-POLR, and in the case of any type, people would likely perceive friendship through their Ego functions: an ILE may view someone as a friend if they open-mindedly allow more exploration of thought, or an SLE may view a friend if they do what the SLE says or follows/supports the SLE's agenda rather than opposing it. In this sense, friends are generally made with like-minded people.

More specifically, to answer #2, I would say SLEs care a lot about people being loyal. Their Fi-POLR is more or less manifested as their not knowing how others will feel about what they say or do. I have an SLE friend who, before giving a speech to a group, will jokingly apologize in advance if he offends anyone. He's said things in front of a group of people before like "tennis is a weak sport", not really thinking that there may be people in the audience who like tennis and might be offended by that. He was simply thinking in an Se/Ti frame of mind about how a sport is perceived from style and respect and analyzing why it wouldn't be as tough or require as much physical energy, force, etc.

For #3, I would say most people, even Fi-POLRS, value being a good person and generally doing something to help others. I read in a book recently that only 0.5% of people are generally wackos or destructive. Heck, even in the other thread on this socionics forum, people were saying a good portion of the psychopaths, who can be up to 1% of the population, are still good people if they have been raised in a good environment. In general, we as humans have evolved to give positive value to each other's lives, otherwise we wouldn't have survived as a species. Of course there are exceptions, but for the most part people are good by nature. I view that more as a need/trait of humans as opposed to be a socionics function, or the kind of information that would be perceived.

well said! this should be an eye-opener to people who think being an Fi-type simply means "trying to be nice" or "caring about being a good person"

[Olduvai]

I believe the desire/need to have friends is pretty universal/human, and not necessarily type-related. I don't see that as being necessarily related to Fi. I view Fi as having better ability to perceive and gauge subjective feelings of like/dislike, not necessarily to be inclined to want more friends.

this!

although I might simplify it to say, "having better ability to perceive and gauge subjective feelings".

[bolong]

Being impressionable is a sign of weakness.

No, it's not.

[FDG]

LOL such an asshole. Even most Pros are more sportsmanlike during competition than your "friend"

Yeah see, I totally agree lol. I understand it may be an exaggerated reaction but that really diminished my trust in him.

[ConcreteButterfly]

Ti valuers want "the truth" as understood by them to be strongly emotionally validated by everyone around them. Sometimes this leads to people being kind, not backstabbing them, etc. but that's not what they actually seek. They want their truth to be ascertained, one way or another. The quiet, subtle Fi valuer is like a loose thread in a scarf, a deviation. Something that can destabilize the whole structure. The more passiveness and ambiguity a Ti valuer meets in response to their logical categorizing, the more insecure they become and the more they will push for emotional clarity. This sometimes has the effect of destroying bonds. So in general, Ti valuers don't seek to be good people or not, it's just not the way they think, but at the most they can become "evil" when they consistently meet with emotions that differ from what they logically expect.

[RedMarquee]

i'm curious about something. not sure how to phrase it.
i think its obvious pretty much everyone cares about having close friends and not wanting to be backstabbed and things like that. i'm just wondering how exactly that plays out in the case of Fi polrs.

1. is that sort of information processed with Ti instead? a different fx?
2. do you just not think about or care whether people you know are loyal or how much you care about them or whatever..? or do you think about it in a paranoid sort of way, or...?
3. do you feel an obligation or inclination to be a good friend or a "good person"? for what reason?

ILE here, fi polr, NeTi ego.

Information like that is usually actually routed through my ego block. If I see someone upset, I will deduct through my knowledge of the person probable things that could have went wrong. It works the same way where I actually know where a conversation is going 5 words in lol. I do want a close friend, but I don't really have any, almost all are acquaintances. I have no understanding of where I sit in people's eyes at all, so I route through ego block once again and ask myself if this person is doing friend like things or showing signs of not-friendly actions. I frequently get called selfish or heartless, but I am actually very kind, I just don't know how to connect, and duals are really the only people who see this in me. I'm paranoid everyone hates me, or stands me to be polite. I really dislike Fi statements about other people in general, because I feel they are really cruel, or stereotypes. It might have to do with not really connecting with someone, so I can't comprehend how you'd know that other person so well that you can make statements like that.
I am a good person, I'm inclined to love everyone because I put emphasis on Fe, if people make up the Fe, then they must be adding to it, so they're good (Te detemining worth of individuals I guess).

[lemontrees]

Who are these people that go around calling people selfish or heartless to their face?

[Aeroscorp]

There's a lot that comes to mind when reading this thread, so I'll try to get it all out here.

Getting backstabbed, to me, is grounds for immediate dismissal from the "friend" category. I'm very selective as it is with who I put trust in, so betraying that is a very quick way to get the cold shoulder from me. I can think of one person who's earned their way back into my inner circle after cheating on her boyfriend (who was also a friend of mine). Only after finding out that she had already broken-up with him did I finally let it all go.

I'm absolutely horrible when it comes to meeting new people and finding something in-common to talk about. I always thought something was wrong with me and that maybe I wasn't as extroverted as I've always thought. Hearing that this might be a Fi-polar thing is actually a relief.

If someone's blatantly wrong about something, I'm usually one of the first to call them out about it - usually really bluntly. I'd rather be right than to make someone feel good.

Also, being Fi-polar doesn't mean that we're not good people, it's just that our values don't come from some soft, mushy "feeling" about things. They usually come from more concrete sources - in my case, The Bible, the law, or social norms (in that order).

Anything else?