Country types

[consentingadult]

Perhaps this has been discussed before:

I recall reading about countries and the relationship of their cultural values to type. What do you think is the Socionic type of your country?

I think the Dutch are ESTjs: a sort of Germans (ISTj), but different: just as opinionated, but this is expressed more verbally (Germans do it more non-verbal), but even then, at the end of the day most Dutch will have a live-and-let-live-attitude and say: "if you don't interfere with my business, I won't interfere with yours (but I still think you're an idiot)."

[Nessy]

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/...=109718#109718

I think cultural or social type is just apparent originated with popular thinkers, politicians and artists.

[consentingadult]

Of course there is no such thing as cultural type, but there certainly are inclinations in culture that can be talked about from a Socionic perspective. If there wasn't, there would have been no such thing as "culture".

[pesto]

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=125

(I remember yet another thread about this.)

[consentingadult]

http://the16types.no-ip.info/forums/viewtopic.php?t=125

(I remember yet another thread about this.)

Interesting thread! I read that the Fins "are" ISTp, which fascinates me, because when I was there for business, me and my American and Italian colleagues where surprised about the "unhospitable" nature of the Fins, although they were not unfriendly or so. Wherever I went in Europe for business, to some extent we were always taken care of, e.g. lunches and dinners. The more south you go, the better it gets. Hungary is very hospitable as well. But the Fins, they did nothing, zero! But like I said, this did not feel as them purposely ignoring our needs. Do the Fins on this forum recognize themselves in this description?

I'm asking because this might be a key to understanding ISTp behavior for me, as I don't know how to recognize ISTps. Could one say that ISTps are good at taking care of themselves in a unselfish way that ignores other people?

[XoX]

Interesting thread! I read that the Fins "are" ISTp, which fascinates me, because when I was there for business, me and my American and Italian colleagues where surprised about the "unhospitable" nature of the Fins, although they were not unfriendly or so.

Do the Fins on this forum recognize themselves in this description?

Could you explain what kind of unhospitable behavior you mean? Generally Finns try to be very hospitable to foreigners because they hate it if they leave a bad impression. Perhaps you were taken care by some Finnish INTps

Once I was in a conference trip in Sicily and talked to a Canadian fellow who had travelled all over Europe and said in Finland people were way more friendly or hospitable than in e.g. France or Italy. I have been in France once and it left more or less a sour taste in my mouth. Finnish are not generally into small talking though so if "hospitable" means that people didn't start spontaneously talking to you in streets, shops etc then that is probably true. But make a test. Take a map and go to a French city and try to get someone to show you the way to where you want to go. Then go to Finland and try the same thing. I'm sure you will be surprised.

But we are generally not good at smalltalking with strangers and the "always smile to strangers" attitude is not yet landed here. Initially we seem more introverted than our socionics type would suggest I guess.
I have heard a comparison that Finnish people are coconuts where e.g. US people are more like peaches. It may be a bit hard at first to "break the ice" with a Finnish person but once they start to trust you and accept you they open up completely. American is like a peach. Seems soft and open on the surface but if you dig deeper they are hard and impenetrable. I'm not sure how sure this is but possibly the peach thing would hold true for Dutch too. My brother-in-law studied in Holland and he said people are more likely to come to talk to you in pubs etc but it is much harder to create lasting relationships there. I'm not sure if that is true. Sounds like national I/E difference to me.

[consentingadult]

Could you explain what kind of unhospitable behavior you mean? Generally Finns try to be very hospitable to foreigners because they hate it if they leave a bad impression. Perhaps you were taken care by some Finnish INTps

Very much possible :wink:

What I mean by it: take the French, the Spanish, The Italians, The Hungarians, The Turks etc.: when you're their guest, they'll pamper, perhaps even to the extent that it starts to get annoying for a North-West-European. They'll take you everywhere, out to lunch, out do dinner, out to bars etc. This is also what the Dutch do in business (because it's good for business).

American is like a peach. Seems soft and open on the surface but if you dig deeper they are hard and impenetrable.

With Americans, there is no "deeper"...

I'm not sure how sure this is but possibly the peach thing would hold true for Dutch too. My brother-in-law studied in Holland and he said people are more likely to come to talk to you in pubs etc but it is much harder to create lasting relationships there.

This is true, but to a lesser extent than with Americans, is our opinion. In fact, Dutch people are very much afraid they interfere with other people's live, and I definitively think we can improve on that, by adapting a more Southern-European style of socializing (having international experience, I already do that, but many Dutch misunderstand the needs of expats). Which is difficult, because the essence of the mediterranean way of doing things, is that people take care of each other, instead of themselves, which in turn is experienced as "intrusive" by northerners and leaves less room for individualism.

[XoX]

What I mean by it: take the French, the Spanish, The Italians, The Hungarians, The Turks etc.: when you're their guest, they'll pamper, perhaps even to the extent that it starts to get annoying for a North-West-European. They'll take you everywhere, out to lunch, out do dinner, out to bars etc. This is also what the Dutch do in business (because it's good for business).

Ok. You by hospitality you mean somekind of ESFj typical behavior. I agree Finnish don't naturally do that (unless they are ESFjs ). I would characterize us more as friendly and "ready to help" but not "nurturing". I guess we have a more "let's skip the socializing and go straight to business" attitude which might seem rudish to some people who are used to different kind of attitude. Personally I guess I'm a stereotypical Finn in that I like people to be friendly to me and if I ask for help I like them to help me but I don't like people force "hospitality" to me. If I just want to get something done it bugs me if I first have to spend several hours small-talking, eating and drinking. I would rather do that AFTER the deal is done and not before. So I would say these things are good for the business if the business partner appreciates these things. Which might be the common case but does not always hold true.

With Americans, there is no "deeper"...

Heh. Well I'm not anti-American as many Europeans nowadays seem to be so I can't completely agree with that. Actually in many cases I would say I'm more anti-European than anti-American. In the end I guess I'm mostly just pro-Finnish

[Expat]

With Americans, there is no "deeper"...

Heh. Well I'm not anti-American as many Europeans nowadays seem to be so I can't completely agree with that. Actually in many cases I would say I'm more anti-European than anti-American. In the end I guess I'm mostly just pro-Finnish

I disagree with it too. It's rubbish.

[Nessy]

There!

If a culture has its type, it may influence people brought up in it. What will happen then?
Family can be regarded as a smaller set with its own culture, e.g., but then why does some people have family members of same quadra (or sometimes even dual) while others don't?

[Creepy-pokeball]

With Americans, there is no "deeper"...

Gee, thanks? wtf.

[consentingadult]

With Americans, there is no "deeper"...

Heh. Well I'm not anti-American as many Europeans nowadays seem to be so I can't completely agree with that. Actually in many cases I would say I'm more anti-European than anti-American. In the end I guess I'm mostly just pro-Finnish

I disagree with it too. It's rubbish.

Very good that you both have an opinion! Would you care to elaborate?

[consentingadult]

I think a bunch of Socionists did something on this, and there's an article on it somewhere. I wish I could recall where. I know the USA got typed as an "ENTj country." (I realize no such thing exists, but it's still fun to think about).

I've read this too, and I wonder if this is not how Americans like to see themselves, instead of what they actually are, as a nation. It's what they would like to be, but only a few actually get there.

You often will see such an effect in bad MBTI-tests: S-people turning out as N-types because they overestimate their intuitive capabilities, as their self-concept is biased by cultural preferences. Noboby wants to be a John Doe, but the truth is, most of us are...

[consentingadult]

Ok. You by hospitality you mean somekind of ESFj typical behavior. I agree Finnish don't naturally do that (unless they are ESFjs ). I would characterize us more as friendly and "ready to help" but not "nurturing". I guess we have a more "let's skip the socializing and go straight to business" attitude which might seem rudish to some people who are used to different kind of attitude. Personally I guess I'm a stereotypical Finn in that I like people to be friendly to me and if I ask for help I like them to help me but I don't like people force "hospitality" to me. If I just want to get something done it bugs me if I first have to spend several hours small-talking, eating and drinking. I would rather do that AFTER the deal is done and not before. So I would say these things are good for the business if the business partner appreciates these things. Which might be the common case but does not always hold true.

This matches my own experiences with the Finnish: like I said before, it's not that they are unfriendly, quite the opposite, which is why it seemed so odd why they didn't take care of the "nurturing". Can we conclude from this, that the Finnish attitude could be described as ISTp?? Or perhaps something else?? Perhaps nothing at all?

A totally different but related question: could it be that Finnish suicide rates are so high exactly because you don't have the tendency to "take care of each other"?? Let me elaborate on this:

When a Dutchman needs a new TV-set, he goes on the Internet looking for a good one, next he goes to the store and perhaps ask specific questions (i.e.: he is asking for help, but not to be taken care of) and then decides which one he's going to buy. Now when an Egyptian person needs a new TV-set, he goes to a friend, and this friend will say: "Don't worry, I know what kind of TV you want". No information gathering up-front, the Egyptian typically will let others "take care of it". The difference is clear: Egyptians have better support networks when compared to the Dutch (who are more self-sufficient), which accounts for less psychological problems in Egypt society. The flip side is, of course, that this also causes the Dutch to be a more high-achiever nation than the Egyptians.

[consentingadult]

I've actually been pondreing that myself, but having read on anthropology, I also know that cultural behaviors and attitudes can have their origin in environmental influences. I.e. why are we "North Europeans" so much more productive and economically succesful than southeners? Some of it has to do with climate.

[XoX]

A totally different but related question: could it be that Finnish suicide rates are so high exactly because you don't have the tendency to "take care of each other"??

I think it's actually because of the lack of sunlight during the winter months, because they're so far north.

Lol. Yeah. I don't have any statistics so I can't compare how high or low our suicide rates are but if we assume they are really high (which might be possible) I think it is greatly affected by our climate. Half the year you don't really see the sun and you have to walk in rain or snow. I mean this would drive FDG to suicide in about a week Personally I like it to have four very different seasons.

The thing is the climate might be the initial cause of everything. Nature is rough, the land area is big (bigger than UK or Italy I think), population is low. So in the old days when there were no cities you had to survive in dark and cold and the nearest neighbour was FAR away. So I guess that developed our ISTp genes. And it is very true that asking for help in any problem is seen as a personal defeat to a traditional Finnish man. Even in the information age, there are many many Finnish men who think that if they are not able to build a house for their family with their own hands without help they are loosers and deserve to die (I guess ). Well I'm not part of that tradition I feel a bit looserish for that though, lol. It is the ultimate test for manhood...for example building something like this would proove you are a MAN:

But ok, now that that half the young people are getting an academic degree the skills of the hand are vanishing rapidly. Young people just laze around in cities and drink beer.

Now you can say...but Swedish are different...ok...they may have similar climate but their history is very different. They were already wealthy when Finland was just learning to be a nation so they haven't struggled as much. Perhaps the fact that we used to be poor nation has effect too in addition to rough climate.

Ok. I end with an old Finnish saying..."In the beginning there was just a man, a swamp, and a hoe/shovel...". In the end there of course was a successful and productive farm or something. I guess this kind of sums it up. But well...the young generation is getting more American, European and whatever than Finnish so things are changing pretty rapidly. We might even become hospitable in the long run Oh and now I can see why we could be seen as an ISTp nation. A general "take care of yourself and craft your own life" attitude (creative ), not too hospitable ( PoLR), be friendly to everyone ( hidden agenda) and of course...eat well and drink a lot of booze (leading ).

[Creepy-pokeball]

But ok, now that that half the young people are getting an academic degree the skills of the hand are vanishing rapidly. Young people just laze around in cities and drink beer.

Yeah, that'y why degrees like architecture and businesses like Lowe's and Home Depot are so popular?

... quit it before I bop you with the mortar trowel that Ive been using all week However, it is true that things are becoming less and less rural. But these "unskilled hands" are quite skilled, tyvm You would be amazed at how much DIY (Do It Yourself) enthusiasm is out and about.[/quote]

[consentingadult]

...there are many many Finnish men who think that if they are not able to build a house for their family with their own hands without help they are loosers and deserve to die

Take Egypt, for example: when you need a new house, the whole community comes to help WITHOUT asking! I wouldn't be surprised if they would be offended if the help offered was declined.

BTW, many psychologist feel that "asking for help" is a key to a better, less neurotic life. Unfortunately, many of us grow up in countries with a "you should be able to do it all by yourself" morale...

[XoX]

lol (was for jadae, i haven't yet read the post above..it was posted while I wrote this )

[XoX]

Take Egypt, for example: when you need a new house, the whole community comes to help WITHOUT asking! I wouldn't be surprised if they would be offended if the help offered was declined

Well..actually...that kind of thing is allowed and kind of common too. You could say it is even mandatory. Helping someone in need. We even have a separate word for voluntary work which the whole community does together. Hmm..let me think again...asking for help is a sign of weakness and a bad thing...but receiving help without asking is ok I guess...and helping people in need is mandatory or you are considered to be "evil". That might be a better description even if it conflicts with what I wrote earlier

(P.S. Everything I write in this thread is just a humorous caricature of well known and funny stereotypes not a realistic description of any sort. It seems as if it is taken too seriously There are even humoristic songs about house building projects where men who don't have the skills try to desperately build a house and refuse to ask for help)

[Creepy-pokeball]

BTW, many psychologist feel that "asking for help" is a key to a better, less neurotic life. Unfortunately, many of us grow up in countries with a "you should be able to do it all by yourself" morale...

I agree. Things such as this are often attributed to a small gain in lifespan for various tiny reasons as well.

[XoX]

BTW, many psychologist feel that "asking for help" is a key to a better, less neurotic life. Unfortunately, many of us grow up in countries with a "you should be able to do it all by yourself" morale...

I agree. Things such as this are often attributed to a small gain in lifespan for various tiny reasons as well.

Probably true That is why the Swedish speaking minority (6% of population) in Finland lives longer and is happier. They have a pretty strong and tight community which tends to live in their own areas where you rarely hear Finnish at all and they have a very different mindset. Ok..they might be "better people" as it is said here but they still suck!

[consentingadult]

asking for help is a sign of weakness and a bad thing...but receiving help without asking is ok I guess...and helping people in need is mandatory or you are considered to be "evil". That might be a better description even if it conflicts with what I wrote earlier

I think this is common for most of the Western world (i.e. North-Western Europe, US) and has its root in Christian morality. The thing is, this morale is psychologically wrong. It is said it works like this:

If you see someone in need and help them voluntarily, the emotion of being needy (not a pleasant emotion) is associated with the person offering help, which is, paradoxically a bad thing for the person offering help. Now if you are the person in need of help, it's a good thing to ask for it: this will allow someone to use their competence to help you out, which makes them feel good about themselves, and this feeling is associated with you! If you want somebody to like you, don't offer them help, ask them for it! Screw christian ethics!

[Creepy-pokeball]

asking for help is a sign of weakness and a bad thing...but receiving help without asking is ok I guess...and helping people in need is mandatory or you are considered to be "evil". That might be a better description even if it conflicts with what I wrote earlier

I feel it is the opposite. I feel that bull-headed people are weak for not asking. They need to get over themselves.

[Creepy-pokeball]

I think, ideally, it should be encouraged to go both ways - people should be encouraged to be the most capable and self-sufficient individuals they can be - while simultaneously sharing that strength with others. Disparaging individualism for the sake of collectivism is bad. It's like the chain benefits the most when each of it's links are as strong as possible.

In my utopia, yes.

[XoX]

asking for help is a sign of weakness and a bad thing...but receiving help without asking is ok I guess...and helping people in need is mandatory or you are considered to be "evil". That might be a better description even if it conflicts with what I wrote earlier

I think this is common for most of the Western world (i.e. North-Western Europe, US) and has its root in Christian morality. The thing is, this morale is psychologically wrong. It is said it works like this:

You are free to adopt Egyptian ethics if you want to...but I think I will pass...at least until they have something concrete results to show. I think whole Egypt is pretty much one big mess nowadays. Starting from traffic and ending in politics.

[consentingadult]

I think, ideally, it should be encouraged to go both ways - people should be encouraged to be the most capable and self-sufficient individuals they can be - while simultaneously sharing that strength with others. Disparaging individualism for the sake of collectivism is bad. It's like the chain benefits the most when each of it's links are as strong as possible.

There is a very simple solution to that: if you see someone in need of help, offer it in a way that allows them a graceful way out and the oppertunity to explicitly ask you for it. Say to them: "Just let me know if you need assistance."

Good listening is also required: my girlfriend told me that today she exploded at work and was angry with ther boss. But this is not what I heard, what I heard was: "I really need you to give me a hug right now"...

[consentingadult]

asking for help is a sign of weakness and a bad thing...but receiving help without asking is ok I guess...and helping people in need is mandatory or you are considered to be "evil". That might be a better description even if it conflicts with what I wrote earlier

I think this is common for most of the Western world (i.e. North-Western Europe, US) and has its root in Christian morality. The thing is, this morale is psychologically wrong. It is said it works like this:

You are free to adopt Egyptian ethics if you want to...but I think I will pass...at least until they have something concrete results to show. I think whole Egypt is pretty much one big mess nowadays. Starting from traffic and ending in politics.

Like I said before: there is a trade-off. Us europeans being more self-sufficient got us where we are: we do well economically, and mid-life crisisses are thrown in as an added bonus :wink:

[XoX]

asking for help is a sign of weakness and a bad thing...but receiving help without asking is ok I guess...and helping people in need is mandatory or you are considered to be "evil". That might be a better description even if it conflicts with what I wrote earlier

I think this is common for most of the Western world (i.e. North-Western Europe, US) and has its root in Christian morality. The thing is, this morale is psychologically wrong. It is said it works like this:

You are free to adopt Egyptian ethics if you want to...but I think I will pass...at least until they have something concrete results to show. I think whole Egypt is pretty much one big mess nowadays. Starting from traffic and ending in politics.

Like I said before: there is a trade-off. Us europeans being more self-sufficient got us where we are: we do well economically, and mid-life crisisses are thrown in as an added bonus :wink:

Yeah but the crisis stuff comes because we submit to the morals only partially