Real face of Extroverted Intuition

[XoX]

Is "possibilities" a good characterization of ? Perhaps "conceptualization" would be better? Or "conceptual possibilities"? I mean I tend to be good at seeing concrete possibilities related to a situation or possible courses of action one can take. Do I have because of this?

Then again I'm not sure how good I am at seeing all the possible ways of conceptualizing or abstracting a situation or phenomena. I think I often come up as one (to me) most relevant way to abstract/conceptualize a phenomenon but I'm not very interested/capable of playing around with different levels of abstract concepts or different conceptual viewpoints.

It is hard to evaluate my capabilities objectively but anyways. What do you think? Does PoLR really mean you are stuck with one viewpoint or course of action. Or is it more related to lack of capability to freely abstract and conceptualize and mold abstract concepts to different shapes and forms?

[Rocky]

Does PoLR really mean you are stuck with one viewpoint or course of action.

Just one big time so everyone can see it;

NO

[FDG]

Does PoLR really mean you are stuck with one viewpoint or course of action.

Just one big time so everyone can see it;

NO

IME, PoLR is double-faced; faces corrisponding to negative and positive sides.

+)Certainity in the correctness of the world-view promoted by the base function. ISxjs will fight to implement and see the real-world results of what has their program function tells them without wavering in doubt and/or diverting their path without a specific reason until the goal has been reached. This in normal circumstances.

-)Blindness to eventual inefficiencies in the path of development. Stubborness over lost causes. Intolerancy of what promotes doubt in themselves. If doubt appears, possibility of it becoming gigantic and, ultimately, overwhelming.

P.S. + and - are not meant to signify manifestation of + and - versions of functions.

[FDG]

Or is it more related to lack of capability to freely abstract and conceptualize and mold abstract concepts to different shapes and forms?

I would say, only if the concepts are of an nature, that is, an inquiry into the essence of them and how they are connected with the whole class of phenomena. I've seen - polr types be really succesful in -related topics, such as development of new theories and methods on time-series based market analysis.

Real-life example of Ne polr: ISFj math professor. Extremely fast-minded and smart. She clearly stated the requirments for the course, precisely indicating which theorems were passible of being asked. Nonetheless, one student proved the fundamental theorem of calculs in a different way than the one she had explained. Upon seeing it she immediatly claimed error, without thinking about the possibility of another version of the proof. When presented with the book from which the proof had been taken, she recognized her error, though after some battling.

[XoX]

I would say, only if the concepts are of an nature, that is, an inquiry into the essence of them and how they are connected with the whole class of phenomena.

But isn't also said to focus on the "essence" of things and "(causal) connections" between things. How is this different from the "inquiry into the essence" and "connections" of point of view?

Nonetheless, one student proved the fundamental theorem of calculs in a different way than the one she had explained. Upon seeing it she immediatly claimed error, without thinking about the possibility of another version of the proof. When presented with the book from which the proof had been taken, she recognized her error, though after some battling.

Would you think ISTj is somewhat different to ISFj in this sense? As leading is usually exploratory in nature. For example I dislike studying already made prooves or solutions to problems. I approach these things in a more exploratory attitude. Trying to invent my own perfect method or prooving something in my own way. And in the end I tend to trust my own method more than any predesigned method (perhaps this is a sign of PoLR, reluctance to believe what others proove over what I proove myself).

I can be inflexible if someone claims they have a method which disprooves something I have proven with my own method. My initial and natural reaction is: "their method doesn't work" and I'm quite reluctant in even trying to understand their method if I'm 100% sure my method works (another sign of PoLR? Curiosity towards things that are personally "100% known" to be untrue/faulty is rather limited). I really have to force myself to concentrate on an approach which produces conflicting outcome compared with my own approach. I have learned to do it but it still sucks.

But if someone's method supports my conclusions then I don't mind them using a different method at all. I usually encourage people to use creative methods to solve problems. I would be proud of a student who could proove a theorem using their own method. Do I sound at all ISTj? Perhaps here is where ISFj and ISTj differ? ISFjs are good at learning approaches other people have constructed and proven to work and adopt them as "the best way to do things". ISTjs instead want to create their own approach and method and are very critical to approaches which seem to produce conflicting outcomes to their own approach. Or is my behavior in this sense closer to INTj than ISTj?

[consentingadult]

Is "possibilities" a good characterization of ? Perhaps "conceptualization" would be better? Or "conceptual possibilities"? I mean I tend to be good at seeing concrete possibilities related to a situation or possible courses of action one can take. Do I have because of this?

is not about conceptualizing possibilities, but about "seeing" them, at least, that is how I experience it, it is a visual thing. Of course it can be argued that this is exactly what "conceptualization" is all about, a matter of the definition of concepts. Now I'm not big time into philosphy, but Ayn Rand ordered conceptualization as a mental integration of perceptions:

sensation -> perception (integrated sensations) -> concept (integrated perceptions).

Rand considered the integration of sensations into perception an automatic function, whereas conceptualization requires conscious effort (Source: Introduction to Objectivist Epistemology).

I think is about perceptions, the concept follows as a function of , sometimes in the negative form of a rationalization.

BTW: You finally found out you're ISTj? That explains a hell of a lot!! I apologize for misunderstanding you :wink:

[XoX]

BTW: You finally found out you're ISTj? That explains a hell of a lot!! I apologize for misunderstanding you :wink:

Don't be so fast! I already lost it I have found almost 16 types so far and lost each But we shall see how this will end up. Perhaps I will go back to being ISTj if I can explain away a couple of serious contradictions people have pointed out to me today.

[consentingadult]

BTW. perhaps it clarifies matter to make a distinction between "possibilities" and "opportunities". I have noticed that e.g. Se types are perfectly capable of "seeing" opportunities, whereas Ne types perceive "possibilities". In fact. Ne types might be a bit blind towards "opportunities".

The difference between the two is that opportunities ar already "in existence", or in the process of coming into existence, they are philosophical "necessities", whereas possibilities are non-existant (yet).

So if an Ne type perceives a "possibility", this does not necessarily mean that he sees something that really exists, not even something that can exist.

Example: there is always the possibility that my girl friend someday could cheat on me, but that does not prove that she ever will. The possibility is currently non-existent (I hope...)

[Rocky]

Ne?

[consentingadult]

Does it confuse you? I know N-types have all kinds of rationalizations to explain intuition that make them seem superior, but the best way to characterize the nature of N is to show what happens when it's taken to extremes: unwarranted speculation!

Do you think Ne or Ni evidence would stand up in court?

[Rocky]

I was refering to Pedro calling me Ne when I said I wanted to see more. I wonder if he's right or if others disagree.

[Rocky]

Do you think Ne or Ni evidence would stand up in court?

There is no such thing as Ne or Ni evidence, since all "evidence" is the Thinking functions.

[consentingadult]

Do you think Ne or Ni evidence would stand up in court?

There is no such thing as Ne or Ni evidence, since all "evidence" is the Thinking functions.

Exactly!

But anyway, the misunderstanding "proves" the point I was trying to make :wink:

[Slava]

Ne seems somewhat like pattern recognition of amplitudes over an independant axis. A human dancing would yield certain termporal patterns of motion. Emotional tension patterns right before a fight is about to break out. This is why Ne people take thingts out of context, because they hear Raw unfiltered signals through their senses and dont filter out context. Pain is hard to ignore because of this. This is why Ne people have trouble hearing one person speaking when there are many speaking in a room. Parts of songs will remind Ne people of other parts of songs. Potential is based on imagining the given object/person in action. Potentials are assembled from interconnected sub potentials seamlessly to create a live model. Walking past an object that has moving components yields another objects where all the components are swung open to their maximum range. This is one reason I walk around fire escape ladders. Because I visualize their range of motion and do not like to walk through it. Better be safe than sorry. Past experience yields models of things based on possibility and the probability of something happening. My body tenses up when potential danger is near. Ne is also good for short duration timing, and fast reflex. I think Ne people have the fastest reflexes when there is physical danger. Ne can also memorize force/displacement graphs, textures, hardness, britalness, and general feel of materials as playin with them yields graphable relationships and paterns, sometimes part of a song will remind me of a stress/strain curve for a material, sometimes songs sound sexual because of the tones + sexual rhythmic beat. A dart board might make me think... bell curve. Or I might visualize what kind of density graph can be made from the sample points. Scuff marks on public equipment are statistical gold mines, damage to display electronics is an indicator of durability levels. sometimes the coolest problems Ne will solve are the ones where you begin to see a familiar pattern, out of context, so you curiously explore the potential remainder of it, and find that you predicted it correctly, and arrive at a new conclusion! this is the most exciting Ne feat. Fractals are a bitch. you get the point.

[consentingadult]

This is why Ne people have trouble hearing one person speaking when there are many speaking in a room.

Are you serious? This is exactly me, I never understand how people are capable of having in conversation in a noisy atmosphere (i.e. noisy when a lot of people are speaking or when there is loud music, others kinds of noise are okay), I can never hear them, people think there's something wrong with my ears, but there isn't...

[oyburger]

This is why Ne people have trouble hearing one person speaking when there are many speaking in a room.

Are you serious? This is exactly me, I never understand how people are capable of having in conversation in a noisy atmosphere (i.e. noisy when a lot of people are speaking or when there is loud music, others kinds of noise are okay), I can never hear them, people think there's something wrong with my ears, but there isn't...

Or a TV, radio, yeah.

[consentingadult]

This is why Ne people have trouble hearing one person speaking when there are many speaking in a room.

Are you serious? This is exactly me, I never understand how people are capable of having in conversation in a noisy atmosphere (i.e. noisy when a lot of people are speaking or when there is loud music, others kinds of noise are okay), I can never hear them, people think there's something wrong with my ears, but there isn't...

Or a TV, radio, yeah.

Not tv: I put Discovery Channel on and sleep like a baby all nite long. Without it, I lie awake...

[consentingadult]

But actually, this is quite a relief, now I don't have to see a doctor, which I've been thinking about for 20 years now. On the other hand, if I'm now going to explain to to people as me being Ne, they are going to think I'm not just hearing impaired, but crazy as well!

[oyburger]

But actually, this is quite a relief, now I don't have to see a doctor, which I've been thinking about for 20 years now. On the other hand, if I'm now going to explain to to people as me being Ne, they are going to think I'm not just hearing impaired, but crazy as well!

I used to sleep with the tv on too but now its a distraction for me. The one I've got is collecting dust.

[consentingadult]

Yeah, I know, my new girlfriend, who had me move the TV to the bedroom, is the one who wants it turned off too...

[Slava]

Down with ADD meds!

[consentingadult]

Down with ADD meds!

David Keirsey wrote a couple of interesting articles on that, including an article on how to deal with ADD kids without using shit such as retalin:

click here...

[Joy]

ADD meds aren't for everyone, but it's foolish to make such a blanket statement

[consentingadult]

Of course, there are kids that are so extreme, that they need to be drugged. But the trend is that more and more psychologists are starting to realize that we've grown unaccepting of kids that are less than "perfect" and everything is organized towards the average kid and there's no more room for kids that are either too active or too passive.

Just turn on the TV, and you'll see programms wiuth Nannies teaching parents how to deal with their kids: no more drugs!

[Creepy-pokeball]

When I was a teen and worked for Fred Meyers (it's like Safeway meets Lowe's meets Target), I worked as a cashier. When I came home at 11pm, I had really bad trouble sleeping because it still felt like people were coming up to me. I found it really distracting that I couldnt disconnect the feeling that nameless people were coming up to me one after another. I thought it was creepy, in fact.

Two weeks ago my INTj friend and I went to a clearance sale as a select plant nursery. There were so many people there by 9AM. Everyone was zooming here and there within about 1/2 an acre worth of area. I had trouble making decisions or trying to invision what I wanted because I could only concentrate on dozens of conversations and people. Every time I see someone, I see more than what is in front of me. I imagine their past, what their life is like now and what may happen. Ive done his since I was a child and I honestly wish I did not. I wish I was like my best friend sometimes. I wish all I saw was physical dimensions. I was telling all this all to my INTj friend and he felt the same (but maybe for different reasons?). At any rate, the feeling was exactly the same as the above paragraph but from a different scenario/perspective. It is also the same feeling of vertigo from being in somewhere like Costco. It is mentally exhausting.

I always thought this was Fe lol. But maybe not? Ne? :/ It's not a panic attack. I dont feel anxious. I feel weird, drained and overextended.

[Slava]

If any has ever heard of scientology, started by an ENTp L. Ron Hubbard, ull find that he was against all kinds of drugs, but he took it a bit too far. ENTj's tend to despise him and his movement. If you ever want to experience an ENTp society go to Clearwater, Florida. I always wondered though if the whole medicine industry was just something that fed the economy, or do they actually care, the NTJ answer to almost any problem that someone has is... "chemical imballance". Its very similar to how TJ's deal with car problems, doesn't work take it out and replace it, no need to dig in the details, even engine unrelated modifications are used as an excuse for voiding a waranty. Its interesting how doctors always seem to come up with inconsitent diagnostics results, if you visit a few for the same problem. People just need to learn to trust each other and communicate, but for that society needs to change the way they view things.... on the other hand this country has already established its viscious cycles that keep it alive, so there really isn't much that can be changed without a collapse.

[Logos]

ENTj's tend to despise him and his movement.

Believe me, a loathing of Hubbard's Scientology movement is not exclusive to ENTjs. :wink:

[oyburger]

ENTj's tend to despise him and his movement.

Believe me, a loathing of Hubbard's Scientology movement is not exclusive to ENTjs. :wink:

Nope

[Rocky]

Umm... not to butt in, but does anyone think the thread I posted is an example of Ne? I know Pedro was just making an observation... by claiming that being curious as only an Ne thing seems to be... disrespectful?... to a lot of people.

[implied]

This is why Ne people have trouble hearing one person speaking when there are many speaking in a room.

Are you serious? This is exactly me, I never understand how people are capable of having in conversation in a noisy atmosphere (i.e. noisy when a lot of people are speaking or when there is loud music, others kinds of noise are okay), I can never hear them, people think there's something wrong with my ears, but there isn't...

Or a TV, radio, yeah.

probably not a thing as much as part of the cocktail party effect.

[consentingadult]

Umm... not to butt in, but does anyone think the thread I posted is an example of Ne? I know Pedro was just making an observation... by claiming that being curious as only an Ne thing seems to be... disrespectful?... to a lot of people.

I never noticed there was a link, you ISTps should speak up more! :wink:

I've clicked the link, but I don't see what you are getting at or want from us. Can you elaborate?

[consentingadult]

I got it, I think.... nah, just horny wishful thinking! Unless we take the psychoanalytic path... :wink:

[implied]

ENTj's tend to despise him and his movement.

Believe me, a loathing of Hubbard's Scientology movement is not exclusive to ENTjs. :wink:

lol agreed. i think i actually meet more INTjs who even give a shit about him, in a positive or negative sense.

[Rocky]

I did! My first two post on the first page of this thread. And to answer your question again...

I was refering to Pedro calling me Ne when I said I wanted to see more. I wonder if he's right or if others disagree.

[Joy]

I can listen to a few conversations at once. This came in very handy when I was bartending.

[consentingadult]

I can listen to a few conversations at once. This came in very handy when I was bartending.

In work I can focus on something or have a conversation with someone, while other people around are talking too. I don't hear what they are saying, until someone says something that signals danger and I feel the need to intervene. Seems like although I think I'm not listening, I am actually listening on some "subconscious" level, because "danger" never escapes me...

[Creepy-pokeball]

I did! My first two post on the first page of this thread. And to answer your question again...

I was refering to Pedro calling me Ne when I said I wanted to see more. I wonder if he's right or if others disagree.

I dont know. I could visually turn it 3-D inside my head so I really didnt need to. It may be Ne, though. Ne dominates seem to get their panties in a bucnh when they only know half the story. I used to tease Kim by telling her half a story and then stopping. Of course, I was nice enough to finish after telling her I was just playing. I learned to do this with my RL ENFp friend. The expression on her face was always priceless. The reaction was even better with, "One time I remember when... oh shit, I forgot."

[Creepy-pokeball]

I can listen to a few conversations at once. This came in very handy when I was bartending.

It's not that I cant. It's all about energy consumption. It's mentally draining to me because it overloads my very vivid imagination internally.

I was sharing this hoping someone could compare/contrast. Others here must experience this, too. ???

[Ms. Kensington]

I can listen to a few conversations at once. This came in very handy when I was bartending.

In work I can focus on something or have a conversation with someone, while other people around are talking too. I don't hear what they are saying, until someone says something that signals danger and I feel the need to intervene. Seems like although I think I'm not listening, I am actually listening on some "subconscious" level, because "danger" never escapes me...

yes i think slava meant you can't have a singular convo because you can hear all of them. you could have more though, internally.

myself, Im not sure what i could do. I have listened to two convos at once though on two phones. I would say there was slight switching of attention span though.

[Slava]

I just read the article aboput to cocktail party effect, and i disagree with it. i assumes that pattern recognition occurs right at the auditory areas of the brain. I think focus is a much higher level function and so is pattern recognition. S people focus on conversations much differently than N people, if you don't believe me try talking to an Se person while they are doing something and youll see how much harder it is to get their attention than an Ne person.