Tact is so boring. I prefer a direct assault.
Damn I was going to go through and quote all the stuff I liked but theres too much!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Wow this was a pretty stupid comment, but Herzy doesn't care!
The complaints waged against ESTps aren't about them being out to get people. It is simply a matter of certain kinds of people finding the general behavior of ESTps in social situations to be narcissistic. None of the conditions of ESTp interaction listed here are even remotely reasonable. I think a more mature ESTp wouldn't require isolation in order act civil with someone who needs to speak to them. The ESTp described here is just a dick.
In my experience, it is very effective. If an ESTp is being a belligerent jerk, I can humiliate him in seconds. This goes to anyone who acts this way, unless they have a brain problem, like Marcus the Maniac (although I probably did piss him off quite a bit, I can't verify it online).Originally Posted by Herzy
Originally Posted by discojoe
I agree with the bolded part.
The red part, meh. If the ESTp think's they are better, then fine let them feel that way. But if they are going to be an unnesessary dick because of that feeling, instead of treating everyone relatively equally, then there is a problem.
If you say so. I think you're wrong.
Okay, a "generalized" ESTp, who may or may not reflect reality, is making a bunch of people feel uncomfortable by getting into other peoples' "space." He is doing this because he is not aware of the actual emotional dynamics in play here, and instead relies on a kind of idealised conception of how people "should" feel about him.
All you have to do is make the ESTp realize that he is smarter than how he is acting and should feel ashamed. When he gets angry at the "ashamed" bit, ask him why, if you're a jerk, he feels ashamed (because his anger is actually indignation at you knowing how he feels). You'll get a "whatever" response, which translates into "".
I've found that refusing to allow the ESTp to engage you in an aggressive manner works for me if I cannot have a private conversation with him/her. Remain nonchalant and unphased and tell them that you're not going to argue with them right now. If they won't stop, I may ignore them or I may tell them that they're making themselves look like an ass and may get themselves in trouble (I state specifiically how though, not just say "in trouble") and that we should talk about it later and just go about our business for now. I try to appeal to them by pointing out their best interests. If they're just looking for a fight, that won't work, but if that's the case, I tell them to go find someone else to argue with because I'm not interested or don't have time for it right now. A few have threatened me with violence... I tell them to go ahead and do it, because I won't hit them back and they'll either get a fine (before I was 18 if they were an adult) or get in trouble (at work) or I'll sue.
LoL this is pretty much what I do, but I try to seem nice while doing it. I don't accept the "whatever" response and I try to make them not feel bad about acting that way, because there is no need to if they fix it.All you have to do is make the ESTp realize that he is smarter than how he is acting and should feel ashamed. When he gets angry at the "ashamed" bit, ask him why, if you're a jerk, he feels ashamed (because his anger is actually indignation at you knowing how he feels). You'll get a "whatever" response, which translates into "".
Occasionally they will start to feel sorry for themselves and keep saying they are stupid blah blah (probably only around the INFp or whatever in private) and at this point I would just say, "You are NOT stupid, you ACTED stupid, so just fix it and you're good. (incert smile and maybe and kiss or something like that)"
Not just around an INFp. Daniel gets down on himself all the time, but he won't let anyone know about it except me.Originally Posted by aurora_faerie
All Hail The Flying Spaghetti Monster
Herzy, I read your description of how to deal with an ESTp that you're having a problem with, and I must say that it would backfire if used by the average person with most of the ESTps that I have known. It's sorta dependent on catching them in the right mood as well as on their overall opinion of you. There are many people who they simply do not respect.
Ya'll play nice, ya'hear?
Yeah, I see your point. It's pretty much the same as the one I was going for in my thread about dealing with ESTps.Originally Posted by Herzy
Me too. It's annoying.Originally Posted by Herzy
sorry it's a funny face though
Somehow I find this weird. It is as if you or ESTps are incapable of controlling themselves. That they are somehow possessed and forced to act in a certain way and not able to listen to people unless certain exact conditions are met.Originally Posted by Herzy
I mean I can temporarily mimic many types in real life situations. I can decide that "today I'm nice and listen to everyone" or "today I'm a prick and don't listen to anyone" or something. Of course there is a built in behavior that eventually surfaces but I can shut it down temporarily or even for extended periods of time if needed. Are ESTps so hardwired to reality that it is impossible for them to behave differently even if they decide so? Or is it that they just don't want to. You talked long and hard about your capability to produce fake . So why you are unable to listen to someone if there are friends around. You just don't care or?
Anyways I can see the value in your contribution. It might well work. ESTps don't generally annoy me though so I probably don't need it that much. Just that it left the same test in my mouth as Rocky's guide on ISTps. Some kind of "I act how I want and you must adapt or you suck at interacting with me" approach. It is so selfish and...somehow flawed approach
Originally Posted by oyburger
Ah yes well I should have said partner or whatever, I used INFp because of me and Patrick.
I watched an ESTp yesterday while having lunch with my INTj friend. I always people watch when Im eating because it's when people are so relaxed and natural. Plus it is rude to eat with your mouth full He was somewhere around 20 with his family. He was fun to watch because he was so energetic in talking while they all ate and was very dynamic with his stories.
I wish I knew one closely. I know zero. Well I know one IRL by aquaintence but he is a complete idiot. LSD and whatever else he could find did his mind in by the time he finished highschool. The guy I was watching was definitely an athlete and probably did little, if any, substances. Anywho, I think life would be more fun with one around. My brother is most likely an ESFp and we have an extremely difficult time communicating. We obviously annoy each other but we are very diplomatic around each other in order to "keep the peace" for the sake of my mother (INFj). It would be nice to have an ESTp (read: healthy version) around (obviously not around my mother! LOL) because I doubt I would have to walk on eggshells for his or her sake. I also need an exercise buddy =p My ISTp best friend will sometimes do that but he "gets bored," which is when I call him random things and he flips me off lol.
I respect the ESTp a lot. I enjoy watching someone with confidence. It's damn refreshing... I seem to feel the confidence vibe from ESTp and ESTj most of all.
ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)
"And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaïs Nin
Originally Posted by HerzyI've missed something.Originally Posted by Diana
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
Theyre being smartasses and having fun
Herzy, I re-read your initial post and still can't quite wrap my head around the part where you describe how to confront an ESTp. Being calm AND serious AND keeping the mood light... while also giving an explanation of why they're being obnoxious BUT not taking too long about it or the ESTp will get angry... It makes sense, but I can't see what this could look like in real life. Could you give a few examples of what might work? Or, if you're comfortable with that, of situations where someone else confronted you and handled things really well?
Very good description ofOriginally Posted by Herzy
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
cool - thanks - i'm interested abuot how estp's workOriginally Posted by Herzy
yeah, i notice that.We see everything through our base function (duh). Whether it be noticing the things that are there around us, being active, or interacting with others, is what drives us through our daily lives.
I think that most people are like that. Some just get stuck though, and need a little prod.When I'm living my life, I don't really sit back to analyze things; I just do whatever it is I'm doing. I find that I'm the happiest when I'm active, whether it be by myself or with others, rather than sitting in a circle, talking about my feelings towards other people. A quote that I heard another ESTp say: "Do something." If there is something that I want to do, I'd rather just go and do it, rather than wasting time analyzing whether I should or shouldn't do it, and by what means. Inactivity is paralyzing for us. Inactivity usually includes sitting around and doing nothing, when there are obvious, more fun things that I could easily be doing at the moment. For example, even though I am sitting in a chair right now, I am still doing something, as my fingers are moving rapidly across my keyboard. Because I'm sick of people making shallow judgements about me, I'm doing something about it right now, in the form of creating this post. Usually, I prefer more active things than this, though. If I get bored of this and think of something better to do, I'll stop typing this, and go do whatever that is. Sports are a good activity, because they're active, provide excercise, and possibly competition depending on the sport, and are an easy way to channel off any excess that I might have.
How does your body feel when this happens? Do you feel a sensation running up your body and smile? And then if someone asks why you're smiling get kind of ecstatic about the red jacket ! it's a red jacket! it's amazing!! and then start telling people that they should get a red jacket too .. and how amazing it is?Usually, I am not processing words through my head, but rather, I'm just noticing everything that I can, and deciding whether I should do anything with this newly aquired information. For example, I turn around, and I see a bright red jacket. I don't think, "Oh, that jacket is red. I like red." Instead, I see the red, get happy, then move on in life. The same thing
So just in space .. how far away thinsg are from each other, internal movement / rearrangement of objects?goes when I'm making decisions. I'll sort of visualize things, but not actually thinking, "I should do that, rather than that. That would make more sense." Instead, I get sort of a vague sense that one might be better than the other, and I act on it. I don't really like to analyze things any deeper than that. It just seems unnescessary, and a waste of time, when I could be doing something more interesting and rewarding instead.
Point and shoot?When interacting with people, I usually have confidence of steel. Over the years, we've learned that people don't treat pansies well, and that we shouldn't act like one, even if we're feeling like one. Like if I'm ever nervous about something, and I tell a friend, they usually respond with something along the lines of, "Really? It doesn't seem like that at all." We use this to our greatest advantage, and this really helps us get what we want, and ignore any nervousness that we might be feeling. See
this thread for more info on how we can trick ourselves into feeling things. That general principal still applies in the scenario above.
ESTP ... being pain in the ass. Saying "You're being a pain in the ass" doesn't do anything. They keep being a pain in the ass - stand up, tell them that they're a pain in the ass, and to stop. And then they throw "sideways" insults. Now what? (well, I think he was ESTp ... I'd been drinking, and I didn't want to have to listen to him trying to be emotional around me. .. as I had enough of my own shit to deal with at the time, and he wouldn't go away when I told him to. I ended up reacting to one of his insults, and getting that feeling of enough is enough and realised that he was on the ground and that I was punching him in the head .. afterwards I was like Well, maybe a different solution could have worked. But when I tried to ask anyone else, how to do it better they seemed to a) dislike the idea of using violence to solve problems, b) be concerned about my intensity of conviction, c) somehow think that condoning my actions is somehow applicable. Although somehow people seemed to be magically attracted to me afterwards, as they considered him a dick, and would have liked to do the same to him)I highly suggest you check out that thread (if you haven't already) for more info on how ESTps think, because I don't have the time to type it all out here again.
If an ESTp is bothering you, think of a way that logically sums up what they're doing, and tell it to them. Don't try to make any one-sentence insults, because the ESTp will probably either: A) ignore it, and keep doing what they're doing, or B) Get pissed, and retaliate in a manner which would backfire on you. Instead, come up with a little explanation of what they're doing, and tell them specifically what they should stop doing. Assuming you do this in a calm manner, it should work, assuming that they have any regard for you whatsoever. For example:
Well, I find that when this shit happens I can just get irritated. And so naturally I get short with my words. And so "telling them exactly" when they've got "communication problems" seems to be like cutting lawns with a pocket knife)Stupid ESTp behavior: ESTp is making fun of your mannerisms, personality, etc.
Good solution: When the ESTp is alone, tell them EXACTLY what they're doing, and why it's pissing them off. Say it seriously, or else they won't take you seriously. If they comply, be agreeable, but make sure that they know that it's an official request that they stop, which will create the impression that you know who you are, and what you want. They'll treat you like a person.
I've often actually noticed that ESTp's seem to want to try impress me.. and it's when this doesn't work, and I kind of reject them that they go apeshit.
Hmm.. I find that when actually engaged with ESTp's that it's difficult to do reasoning. It stimulates me - but not towards reasoning. In order to reason, I need to encourage for them to disappear. Is it reasonable to ask an ESTp to do something for you when they're busy being all wily?Pointers: If the ESTp is around other people (IE friends), and you tell them this, they'll probably blow you off with some kind of cutting remark, or ignore you all together. In their eyes, they're focused on their friends, who happen to be of primary importance at that moment. If you want yourself to be their primary concern, make sure that you approach them when there will be nothing else to take your place.
Also, If you take a minute to explain your reasoning, the ESTp will figure that you took some time to think out whatever you were talking to them about, and therefore, put it in higher regard than a one-sentence remark. However, don't stretch it out, or else the ESTp will become agitated, and might start yelling and go on offense. You don't want this to happen, because you will not get your point across this way. A direct and to the point explanation will work wonders.
Hmm, the thing here that I find is that I read this hesitation after I say something to an ESTp .. like a drop in intensity. And I can't decrease my intensity to match their doubt very well. It's kind of like when you ask someone what the time is, and they say they don't know, and you tell them to look at their watch that is right on their hand. It's like they seem slightly confused, and out of place often to me.Remember to keep the mood relatively light too. This will make it so that the ESTp won't yell in order to break your intensity. If you make a closing point at the end, the ESTp will consider your request as official, and take it into consideration and think it through. Make sure that they acnowledge at the end.
I just figure that if I keep repeating what's important, that they'll get it after a while even if it seems that they're dismissing it.I notice that the only people who have sucessfully used this tactic on me have been other ESTps (go figure ). They would do it just how I described, and when they do it, I understand where they're coming from. That's the key - that the ESTp understands where you're coming from.
Heh, maybe if you guys use this technique to deal with these "ESTps" you all complain about on here, maybe you will notice that we're not all out to get you, and that we'll actually take note of what you say. Sheesh.
I might post more later. This is enough for now.
I'm all for people saving face. And telling people things in private. But if they come out with bullshit in a public arena, then they deserve to fall.
I think you're wrong. This actually suggests you are very -focused yourself. Your "little prod" is precisely what supervision is about -- a person trying to help a PoLR person but actually just nagging them.Originally Posted by Benny
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
Originally Posted by implied