INTjs what do you think about school/education?

[Mastermind]

I, personally, like school and hate school. Maybe it's just a personal trait, but I love perfection and I always strive to be as close to it as possible, so when a grade or project turns out to be less than perfect, I get frustrated. Really frustrated. Also, when somebody who hasn't necessarily marked themselves as proficient in a subject where I have announced myself (indirectly) as very good beats me at something I wanted -say on a writing peice I got a 3.5/4 and they got a 4/4 or something similar - that also irks me. But I love to learn and increase the hordes of knowledge stored in my brain, so I also love school.

[oyburger]

I loved school, but hated the rules and the other people.
Given a choice between going to school and working, I pick going to school.

[UDP]

If someone could support me, a patron, while I went to school and studied various things, to learn how to make the world a little better or more effectively efficient, or make sure mankind gets/stays on the right track, I'd like that a lot.

I'm not really looking forward to working every day or so for the next 45 years of my life

[oyburger]

Sigh, me either UDP.

[UDP]

(that's why I am trying to find, desparetly, something I have interest in, and might have a purpose in)

When I get back to college, I am going to make my advisor work for her money

[Logos]

Uni and school appeals to INTjs since it provides a readily available resource to fuel the function. I think INTjs like to learn and be in an environment that allows them to flex their , but may see the grades and assignments as unnecessary or even an impediment to the learning process. INTjs usually have high expectations for themselves, especially if its in a subject they care about, but do not necessarily compete with others so much as they compete with themselves. But as Mastermind said, however, when someone else gets a higher mark than them, they may get irritated if they felt that the grading did not reflect the quality of their work. For example, a writing assignment may have a page requirement, but if the INTj's grade is decreased for being short of that (since they are generally terse) and yet they feel that the quality of their ideas are well beyond their peers, they may be aggrevated that the grader graded the wrong thing.

[oyburger]

I'm waiting for the lottery to fund my research.

[UDP]

Uni and school appeals to INTjs since it provides a readily available resource to fuel the function. I think INTjs like to learn and be in an environment that allows them to flex their , but may see the grades and assignments as unnecessary or even an impediment to the learning process. INTjs usually have high expectations for themselves, especially if its in a subject they care about, but do not necessarily compete with others so much as they compete with themselves. But as Mastermind said, however, when someone else gets a higher mark than them, they may get irritated if they felt that the grading did not reflect the quality of their work. For example, a writing assignment may have a page requirement, but if the INTj's grade is decreased for being short of that (since they are generally terse) and yet they feel that the quality of their ideas are well beyond their peers, they may be aggrevated that the grader graded the wrong thing.

(yes, I agree exactly, 100%. That is me)

That is exactly what happened in one class last year, a manditory reading and writing.

But actually, I took it even further into :ne:, such that I started saying what I think was right, and explaining how the other options were wrong

[Mastermind]

Uni and school appeals to INTjs since it provides a readily available resource to fuel the function. I think INTjs like to learn and be in an environment that allows them to flex their , but may see the grades and assignments as unnecessary or even an impediment to the learning process. INTjs usually have high expectations for themselves, especially if its in a subject they care about, but do not necessarily compete with others so much as they compete with themselves. But as Mastermind said, however, when someone else gets a higher mark than them, they may get irritated if they felt that the grading did not reflect the quality of their work. For example, a writing assignment may have a page requirement, but if the INTj's grade is decreased for being short of that (since they are generally terse) and yet they feel that the quality of their ideas are well beyond their peers, they may be aggrevated that the grader graded the wrong thing.

Wow. That's me to a T. I keep telling people that grades hurt, but no one seems to listen, and I hate page requirements with a pasison.

[Logos]

But I'm not sure how much is actually type related since it is hard to find students who actually like grades and page requirements (though I do think that since INTjs are structure oriented, they like to have a sort of ballpark estimate, but resent the page requirement itself if it's taken literally). The page requirement was just an example. INTjs are generally to the point, but can suffer in other areas when writing.

For example, I think that when INTjs sometimes present their ideas they see them as being sort of self-evident. This is because they have logically internalized their ideas to such an extent that they have already gone through the arguments in their heads (and often in advance of when they have started the paper). Because of this, INTjs may not properly support their argument with sources and other supplementary reasoning that generally makes for a more cohesive paper. Though I should take this time to say this is merely a level of speculation. Almost all of my high school and collegiate papers have been marked with "Great ideas, excellent analytical and critical thinking, but argument needs more support."

And INTjs may lack the skill to transition between arguments, not because they can't, but because once they finish an argument they immediately follow to the next. A sort of "It's done. I made my point, and if you don't understand what I'm talking about you're an idiot. So on to my next point." This is obviously an exaggeration, but I do think that there is a level of belief that their ideas should be self-evident.

In a sort of odd twist, I think that INTjs may be better with dealing with people one-on-one than they are with papers, because of the different styles between how an INTj may be accustomed to debating with people and the writing style of papers.

[oyburger]

Good points Logos, I seem to have that problem a lot too.

[Polly]

I hated school, the rules, and most of the people. If given the chance between working and going to school, I pick working...haha mirrors

My ideal life would be sitting back while people just sent me problems to solve while putting no pressure on me and allowing me to solve them in my own way. Instead of learning to solve problems, I solve problems to learn.

I am realizing though I had a friend who was INTj in school (maybe ISTj but I'm thinking she swings more INTj). We weren't that close though because she suffered from quite a bit of arrogance.

I hated math mostly because it required some actual memory skills. I was good at grasping all the equations, I would just forget them shortly afterwards.

Well I had her tutor me for a big math exam. I had to score at leas 76 on it or I was going to fail the year (goofed off all year). I remember she got quite pissed off when I scored higher than she did. I was really excited I did so well. I ran up to her telling her my mark thinking she'd be all happy (after all, she provided the structure and managed to get me to focus which is why I was able to get the mark). Then, without acknowleding or congratulating me, she started going on about what a stupid test it was. Sort of took the wind from my sails.

I got a 97 and her something like a 95. We were really close.

I dunno, maybe she had visions in her head she was helping out the poor retarded student because of my marks.

[Logos]

Polly, it really sounds as you have had some bad experiences with people you have identified as INTjs.

[mimisor]

Eh, school ... both a trouble and a bliss for an INTj ...

If I had the chance, for sure i'd choose to go to school for my whole life!

I dislike the competition for grades though. and all unfair, roten and ugly things within the system.

For example, I think that when INTjs sometimes present their ideas they see them as being sort of self-evident This is because they have logically internalized their ideas to such an extent that they have already gone through the arguments in their heads (and often in advance of when they have started the paper). Because of this, INTjs may not properly support their argument with sources and other supplementary reasoning that generally makes for a more cohesive paper

Definetely! something i've realized now as i grew up (quite recently actually) and noticed the outside world. lol. One of the problem of INTjs is the not so good ability to express themselves. (I've generalized this, but i am reffering here to me in the first place). I sometimes envy the easiness of or in expressing ideas loudly and clearly. well, not really "envy" as "envy" but you get right the idea (i hope).It took me some time to realize i need to breakdown my thought process in smaller steps, so that my explanation is also intelligible to other people too, not only to me. I wonder, what good is if i understand some things and accept them as obvious and self-evident, but i can't get my point across in a clear and easy way? Just to keep my understanding for myself, isn't it a bit ...worthless?
But now I've learned i need to explain with more words what i really have in the head, otherwise people won't understand my meaning, or not completely. Still. i need to make a concious effort to remind myself that i need to use more words. This way people would be more receptive and iinterested in what i have to say.

Ehh, i'm sure you are familiar to this what i'described above, i've heard it before from other INTjs.

[UDP]

But I'm not sure how much is actually type related since it is hard to find students who actually like grades and page requirements (though I do think that since INTjs are structure oriented, they like to have a sort of ballpark estimate, but resent the page requirement itself if it's taken literally). The page requirement was just an example. INTjs are generally to the point, but can suffer in other areas when writing.

For example, I think that when INTjs sometimes present their ideas they see them as being sort of self-evident. This is because they have logically internalized their ideas to such an extent that they have already gone through the arguments in their heads (and often in advance of when they have started the paper). Because of this, INTjs may not properly support their argument with sources and other supplementary reasoning that generally makes for a more cohesive paper. Though I should take this time to say this is merely a level of speculation. Almost all of my high school and collegiate papers have been marked with "Great ideas, excellent analytical and critical thinking, but argument needs more support."

Hell yeah--- look at some of my earlier threads, and even some of my more recent ones. What I underlined at the top is actually the reason why I started the "thread of many small questions"... because I was writing a lot of threads that were so self evident. I played through them so much already that there was nothing to ask, but there was still something I wanted to say, or ask, or thought was important to say, etc, so I posted it anyways.

And INTjs may lack the skill to transition between arguments, not because they can't, but because once they finish an argument they immediately follow to the next. A sort of "It's done. I made my point, and if you don't understand what I'm talking about you're an idiot. So on to my next point." This is obviously an exaggeration, but I do think that there is a level of belief that their ideas should be self-evident.

In a sort of odd twist, I think that INTjs may be better with dealing with people one-on-one than they are with papers, because of the different styles between how an INTj may be accustomed to debating with people and the writing style of papers.

Totally true for me. Because, (......and maybe this has something to do with why Pedro mentions a "mental internet"), I can convey my abstract thoughts best in person, when I can gauge and understand who I am talking to, and relate my concepts to their concepts. Me just stating words really is kind of inefficient, because there are connotations and denotations and all other variables. But at least, in person, I can more easily figure out how to connect my concept to one in your head, and as such actually communicate what I am thinking of. This is especially so when it comes to deeper and more complex things.

[mimisor]

In a sort of odd twist, I think that INTjs may be better with dealing with people one-on-one than they are with papers, because of the different styles between how an INTj may be accustomed to debating with people and the writing style of papers.

hmm..not sure i understand what is meant by this ^^

As for me, i clearly communicate better in writing than in speaking, because i have more time to formulate my answer and think about it. I do poorly if the questions are adressed verbally and i must give my response on the spot. Generally i need time to prepare my answer first.

[oyburger]

For me I think I "seem" more normal in one on one conversation because it forces me to be spontaneous and not over think my ideas into oblivion. On a paper I might come off as vauge and it seems like I'm pulling ideas out of nowhere. In a one on one conversation the other person has an opportunity to question me etc.

[mimisor]

I do enjoy one-on-one conversations. And i'm not against being spontaneous really, it's just some ideas will strike me in the head long after the conversation is over and there's always so many topics that i would have liked to elaborate further on

[oyburger]

I do enjoy one-on-one conversations. And i'm not against being spontaneous really, it's just some ideas will strike me in the head long after the conversation is over and there's always so many topics that i would have liked to elaborate further on

Oh yes, there's always that missed opportunity that you kick yourself for later

[Logos]

hmm..not sure i understand what is meant by this ^^

As for me, i clearly communicate better in writing than in speaking, because i have more time to formulate my answer and think about it. I do poorly if the questions are adressed verbally and i must give my response on the spot. Generally i need time to prepare my answer first.

If given plenty of time, INTjs may prefer to write, but at the same time it presents something of a problem. As Oyburger said, "in a one on one conversation the other person has an opportunity to question me," and it may come off as being vague and lack the full support of the argument.

When I am talking about one-on-one, I am not talking about answering school questions verbally (or in front of class) so much as I am talking about how INTjs normally engage in their natural style of debate and discussion, how an INTj makes an argument, or how they present an idea. Since INTjs enjoy this leisure-banter, they are often the ones who start debates with others or at least have a habit of provoking them (sometimes unintentionally). Because of this, INTjs usually start a conversation with a set of possible expectations and directions () that the discussion may go, and may have some of their arguments developed in advance. An INTj discussion involves a great deal of refinement of ideas and trying to match concepts with the other person. As UDP II puts it, "...at least, in person, I can more easily figure out how to connect my concept to one in your head, and as such actually communicate what I am thinking of." This is the first part of the discussion, and of course involves the introduction of the central ideas and generally the provocation.

While this is going on the INTj is almost trying to guide the discussant to step out of the box, see the big picture, and try and strip away certain societal prejudices that may interfere with seeing the idea (or at least the idea according to them). In this manner, this is probably very similar to an INTp's style of debating with bouncing questions and forcing the discussant to find their own answers. But again, the problem may be that once the INTj gets the other person to this point, they may expect the discussant to undergo a sudden epiphany which will not always happen. In which case, the INTj will either delve deeper or simply give up in frustration if they feel as if they have made little progress.

I do enjoy one-on-one conversations. And i'm not against being spontaneous really, it's just some ideas will strike me in the head long after the conversation is over and there's always so many topics that i would have liked to elaborate further on

Oh yes, there's always that missed opportunity that you kick yourself for later

Thankfully INTjs have the uncanny ability to pick up a conversation in the same spot long (sometimes weeks) after the initial conversation has ended. :wink:

[oyburger]

Thankfully INTjs have the uncanny ability to pick up a conversation in the same spot long (sometimes weeks) after the initial conversation has ended. :wink:

Yes, but I found out at an early age that this ability annoys other people.

[UDP]

Check out my signature, and then, as a group, let's work on this......





When someone brings this up:

Yes, but I found out at an early age that this ability annoys other people. Very Happy

respond with



Don't you know who I am? I'm an INTj, BITCH!

[FDG]

I think I had an INTj math teacher and I had absolutely no problem understanding him/passing his tests. I even liked the fact that he presented the material trying to convey us an understanding instead of a mere step-by-step procedure. I don't think that transmitting information via mental images is a bad means: it worked wonders for me. Though I've seen especially ISxjss stuggling with it.

The real pain was the ISTj one: he kept telling me that all the lines I had to trace on the blackboard had to be STRAIGHT. So every time I had to do an oral little examination, half of the time was spen by him telling me "STRAIGHT LINE!". Of course I didn't do that well in the class. He was really funny though.

[olduser]

The real pain was the ISTj one: he kept telling me that all the lines I had to trace on the blackboard had to be STRAIGHT. So every time I had to do an oral little examination, half of the time was spen by him telling me "STRAIGHT LINE!". Of course I didn't do that well in the class. He was really funny though.

In america you can say, "pass." Would you say there was a strong career emphasis in your education?

[FDG]

The real pain was the ISTj one: he kept telling me that all the lines I had to trace on the blackboard had to be STRAIGHT. So every time I had to do an oral little examination, half of the time was spen by him telling me "STRAIGHT LINE!". Of course I didn't do that well in the class. He was really funny though.

In america you can say, "pass." Would you say there was a strong career emphasis in your education?

Since I went to a business-related school, there was a certain blend of career orientation. However, Italian schools aren't particularly oriented towards teaching purely practical skills.

[olduser]

Since I went to a business-related school, there was a certain blend of career orientation. However, Italian schools aren't particularly oriented towards teaching purely practical skills.

Do they teach you to be a beauiful unique soul like american schools?

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[oyburger]

Since I went to a business-related school, there was a certain blend of career orientation. However, Italian schools aren't particularly oriented towards teaching purely practical skills.

Do they teach you to be a beauiful unique soul like american schools?

I think you might have mixed up American schools with somewhere else.

[aestrivex]

i don't think he was being entirely serious...

[oyburger]

I know

[Mastermind]

Totally true for me. Because, (......and maybe this has something to do with why Pedro mentions a "mental internet"), I can convey my abstract thoughts best in person, when I can gauge and understand who I am talking to, and relate my concepts to their concepts. Me just stating words really is kind of inefficient, because there are connotations and denotations and all other variables. But at least, in person, I can more easily figure out how to connect my concept to one in your head, and as such actually communicate what I am thinking of. This is especially so when it comes to deeper and more complex things.

Heck, yeah.

[Mastermind]

respond with



Don't you know who I am? I'm an INTj, BITCH!

THAT's IT! =] THE ANSWER TO ALL OF LIFE's MISUNDERSTANDINGS!

[UDP]

If nothing less, it is a good way to forgive others for their insolence -- understanding you are an INTj.


But yes, it would be very appealing to just declare that to someone, who doesn't know. It's just like the Juggarnaut video.

[intjguy]

Did you guys seriously have respect for your teachers? How about for the mundane futile general education?
Honestly, I thought of high school as a free daycare center created to keep kids off the streets during business hours or from competing in the job market.

The only teachers I respected were ones that respected my apathy. The rest didn't bother to realize that I was there because I was forced to show against my will and that I found their teachings useless to me (or more specifically, to my master plan )

And I'd just like to say that quite to the contrary of school allegations about marijuana... well, if I had smoked pot back then, I would've endured and stayed in school (and guess what? They'd still be making $$ off of my attendance too[which is what they truly care about, not my brain]).

Haha, I remember when I quit 9th grade.. one girl asked me "Don't you get lonely?"
I figured she asked a weird question and replied with a simple "no".
Now I understand that it was my answer which was weird, not her question.
To me, school is only important up to 8th grade. To everyone else... whatever.

[intjguy]

Did you guys seriously have respect for your teachers? How about for the mundane futile general education?
Honestly, I thought of high school as a free daycare center created to keep kids off the streets during business hours or from competing in the job market.

The only teachers I respected were ones that respected my apathy. The rest didn't bother to realize that I was there because I was forced to show against my will and that I found their teachings useless to me (or more specifically, to my master plan )

And I'd just like to say that quite to the contrary of school allegations about marijuana... well, if I had smoked pot back then, I would've endured and stayed in school (and guess what? They'd still be making $$ off of my attendance too[which is what they truly care about, not my brain]).

Haha, I remember when I quit 9th grade.. one girl asked me "Don't you get lonely?"
I figured she asked a weird question and replied with a simple "no".
Now I understand that it was my answer which was weird, not her question.
To me, school is only important up to 8th grade. To everyone else... whatever.

[Kirana]

Thankfully INTjs have the uncanny ability to pick up a conversation in the same spot long (sometimes weeks) after the initial conversation has ended. :wink:

yes, this sometimes irritates people, although i suspect it's because they don't remember the topic anymore and/or don't understand why i bring it up again. but i mean, if the discussion wasn't finished, you just hafta carry it through to an end, you know.

[Kirana]

Thankfully INTjs have the uncanny ability to pick up a conversation in the same spot long (sometimes weeks) after the initial conversation has ended. :wink:

yes, this sometimes irritates people, although i suspect it's because they don't remember the topic anymore and/or don't understand why i bring it up again. but i mean, if the discussion wasn't finished, you just hafta carry it through to an end, you know.

[Kirana]

Did you guys seriously have respect for your teachers? How about for the mundane futile general education?

depends. some teachers i respect for their patience, some for being understanding, some for surviving at all, some for kindness (i remember those who were kind to me, because few people are) ... oh, you mean, intellectually? few. i remember one who lost my respect for not being able to explain a physics concept (which i later reasoned out on my own) even though she supposedly has a masters degree.

don't know about your school system, but my school system was/is a bit rote. however, i understood that scoring as highly as possible makes it much easier to get my degree of choice in university so i played by the system (and sometimes, played the system) in order to get it. they say lots of students who scored in lower education don't do so well in high school, and those who excelled in high school don't always do well in bachelor's degree, and those who did well then don't always do well in a research degree - because the way you're taught differs at each stage. but i managed to adapt to all of them. i think the thing that enables me to do so is that i understand what is required, and why, and what i'm expecting to gain, and so each time i could work out a suitable 'how' to suit the system - both to give others what they expect, and to extract from it what i need. it was a long time ago, and time heals all wounds, including irritations. but i seem to remember, when in school, being very annoyed at times with some inanities and irrelevancies in the system itself. i learned early on that grown-ups are mostly idiots. and now that i am a grown-up myself, that opinion has not changed.

i think i've mellowed a bit, though.

[Kirana]

Did you guys seriously have respect for your teachers? How about for the mundane futile general education?

depends. some teachers i respect for their patience, some for being understanding, some for surviving at all, some for kindness (i remember those who were kind to me, because few people are) ... oh, you mean, intellectually? few. i remember one who lost my respect for not being able to explain a physics concept (which i later reasoned out on my own) even though she supposedly has a masters degree.

don't know about your school system, but my school system was/is a bit rote. however, i understood that scoring as highly as possible makes it much easier to get my degree of choice in university so i played by the system (and sometimes, played the system) in order to get it. they say lots of students who scored in lower education don't do so well in high school, and those who excelled in high school don't always do well in bachelor's degree, and those who did well then don't always do well in a research degree - because the way you're taught differs at each stage. but i managed to adapt to all of them. i think the thing that enables me to do so is that i understand what is required, and why, and what i'm expecting to gain, and so each time i could work out a suitable 'how' to suit the system - both to give others what they expect, and to extract from it what i need. it was a long time ago, and time heals all wounds, including irritations. but i seem to remember, when in school, being very annoyed at times with some inanities and irrelevancies in the system itself. i learned early on that grown-ups are mostly idiots. and now that i am a grown-up myself, that opinion has not changed.

i think i've mellowed a bit, though.

[Exodus]

But I'm not sure how much is actually type related since it is hard to find students who actually like grades and page requirements (though I do think that since INTjs are structure oriented, they like to have a sort of ballpark estimate, but resent the page requirement itself if it's taken literally). The page requirement was just an example. INTjs are generally to the point, but can suffer in other areas when writing.

For example, I think that when INTjs sometimes present their ideas they see them as being sort of self-evident. This is because they have logically internalized their ideas to such an extent that they have already gone through the arguments in their heads (and often in advance of when they have started the paper). Because of this, INTjs may not properly support their argument with sources and other supplementary reasoning that generally makes for a more cohesive paper. Though I should take this time to say this is merely a level of speculation. Almost all of my high school and collegiate papers have been marked with "Great ideas, excellent analytical and critical thinking, but argument needs more support."

And INTjs may lack the skill to transition between arguments, not because they can't, but because once they finish an argument they immediately follow to the next. A sort of "It's done. I made my point, and if you don't understand what I'm talking about you're an idiot. So on to my next point." This is obviously an exaggeration, but I do think that there is a level of belief that their ideas should be self-evident.

In a sort of odd twist, I think that INTjs may be better with dealing with people one-on-one than they are with papers, because of the different styles between how an INTj may be accustomed to debating with people and the writing style of papers.

While [the discussion] is going on the INTj is almost trying to guide the discussant to step out of the box, see the big picture, and try and strip away certain societal prejudices that may interfere with seeing the idea (or at least the idea according to them). In this manner, this is probably very similar to an INTp's style of debating with bouncing questions and forcing the discussant to find their own answers. But again, the problem may be that once the INTj gets the other person to this point, they may expect the discussant to undergo a sudden epiphany which will not always happen. In which case, the INTj will either delve deeper or simply give up in frustration if they feel as if they have made little progress.

All of this describes me perfectly.

It seems to me like INTjs have one of two attitudes toward school: either a) become an perfectionistic overachiever, sacrificing focus on long-term goals for short-term success, or b) become a slacker and do a half-assed job, enough to do well, but not so little as to fail. Kirana, the way you describe yourself I assume you fell into the first category?