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Article: Mirror Relations INTp and ENTj by Stratiyevskaya
You can view the page at http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...Stratiyevskaya
Mirror doesn't look pleasant and it seems true, the quadra bias is dispelled there
From this description, it's pretty clear that Stratiyevskaya thinks that the ILI is actually correct in his criticism. The description looks like a supervision relationship, not a mirror.
I wouldn't say so. She's pointed out that via his typical tactics the ILI runs himself into dead ends, and that's when the time comes for the LIE to criticize him.Originally Posted by FDG
Though this position very often leads Balzac to a dead end. When this happens, time comes for Jack to correct him, which he does, and in especially harsh manner. In LIE's view a person who is intelligent and observant shouldn't stand idle - he should do something, anything, especially if he is so well-versed in the experience of others.
There are notes of supervision to this dynamic, but that's because interaction between mirror types is conceptualized as mutual supervision.
Similarly, Mirror is supervision/audit of one another, and in Conflict both partners are expecting to be supervised/audited. (ref.)
Just one instance, whereas I can count at least 10 instances in which the ILI is painted in a positive light in his criticism.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Strat's just jealous of the ENTj's inherent superiority.
One of my closest friends is an ILI-Ni and this description is spot on in comparison with my experience. I showed it to him and we both agreed it was very accurate. He pointed out that I am in fact reckless and take control of everything we do, and I agreed that he is a lazy ass and never does anything but judge everyone quietly in a corner. We only see each other about once a week and it's just the right amount. The difference the position Ni makes in the ego is astonishing in this respect, because he is the most patient person in the universe, and I won't even purchase something at a store if I have to stand in a line for more than 30 seconds. Great article.
FDG, listen dude, don't fight it.
ILIs rule LIEs drool
of course i can view it
From my experience with this relation, it is like supervision.
Strats is always putting the LIE down. Every time i read one of her descriptions i get even more annoyed with her b.s.
Like, how fxxn ne polr can you get. Way to exemplify the negative characteristics of your type rather than improving yourself through knowledge of your weakness.
Then you´re wrong, because it´s a mirror relationship.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
Oh my god you're right. What a mind blowing analysis.
Let's try this again. Mirror relationships, in my opinion, are similar to supervision relations (with repeated close psychological distance) for a few reasons. The lead function is seen as most important. The creative gets worn out with repeated use. The sporadic use of the role function of the two partners places frustration on the other. One is irrational and the other is rational. Basically each person thinks they need to reroute the other person and inform them of how they are using their lead and creative poorly which results in each person slightly shifting their behavior if on friendly terms. This causes psychological stress.
You're free to disagree, I don't mind. Please don't troll me. I mean, if you have something to argue about, be my guest, but at least have the self respect to back up your opinion with something that doesn't make you look like you have nothing worth adding. Thats just a suggestion though.
smh. Is that so?
Strats never has anything nice to say about the LIE. wut gives
In many ways, I wish I had never read this. I have some good ILI friends, and work with some other ILI's, and I know an ILI who works for another LIE, and this description of the interpersonal relationships is spot-on and disheartening. I have been ignoring much of the reality that Strat talks about, thinking that the ILI's are simply planning, and maybe they just aren't that good at doing, but they are good planners. In the worst cases, the ILI's simply sit back and do nothing but criticize the plans of the LIE's. If the other LIE and I weren't over the ILI's at work, business would grind to a halt, because nothing would actually get done. (I absolutely cannot see myself working for an ILI, although I did briefly consider doing more than dating one once. I guess I dodged a bullet there.) When the ILI's are assigned work, they try to pass it off onto someone else. When they can't pass it off, they do, however, get the work done on time, which is something that I don't always manage to do.
A good ILI friend of mine also has the messiest house I have ever been in. Dirty dishes in the sink, clothes and books dumped randomly on the floor, not one inch of counter space left uncovered by some piece of junk, the floor hasn't been washed in a very long time, he sits in a chair or in front of his computer all day, and his dog lives in the house and badly smells like an unwashed dog. His car smells like his dog. But, he shares this house with his ESI wife, who works for both of them. (Another ILI friend lives alone and his house is immaculate. Also, my bachelor ILI financial advisor has a very neat office.) The mess in the house belongs to the ILI, not to the ESI, because when I visited, I did the dishes and cleaned up part of the kitchen, and she then swept through it like a tornado and cleaned the rest of it.
I agree with Rhaegar's comments regarding the dispositions and time-sense of the ILI and LIE. I can wait patiently in line, but I am very impatient when people slow down my progress while driving.
I don't agree with FDG that Strat is criticizing LIE's unfairly, or is painting the ILI with a more favorable brush than the LIE. I don't see much here to disagree with. Unfortunately.
Last edited by Adam Strange; 09-28-2015 at 03:02 AM.
Aww c'mon @Adam Strange, it's not like everything's set in stone. Once you know the dynamics you can act to subvert or circumvent them. For instance, if you know that the ILI will try to pass off a given task then present the work to him in a way that heavily implies that there isn't really anyone else who's competent enough to handle it but themselves. If he starts criticizing you as reckless point out all the times such behavior has worked out well. You can't argue with results after all. Sometimes, make a token submission to his Ni. He'll probably return the favor by submitting to your Te every once in a while, especially if they see you as a friend.
Just because socionics says that a given relationship is negative doesn't mean it has to be. People can get along with anyone, it's even possible to get along with the conflictor, but you have to know which buttons to push and what to avoid getting adamant about. If you just "go with the flow" in these situations things will turn out badly for everyone. But, if you know what's likely going through their head and compensate for it you should be able to at least get along if not make the other person a more effective pawn/co-worker.
Yeah, @End, I agree with you. My friendships and work relationships are not in danger. I just got bounced out of my happy-ignorance land and am not happy about that. Probably because it closes off some of the possibilities I hoped for by making things much more predictable. I'll get over it.
I actually have been operating as you suggested. The ILI's really are the best at what they do, and I have no problem appreciating them for their superior skills in those areas and telling them that. The communication and understanding is so good that I'm not going to let Strats assertion (accurate tho it may be) that ILI's resist doing stuff when they think they could be criticized for it, affect how much I like them. Heck, no one wants to be criticized.
As for them criticizing me, they either don't or we've come to an understanding. I welcome, seek out, and actually need open criticism of my plans, but for a while, one guy was critical of me but not to my face, and that is not acceptable. We had a discussion, came to terms, and we're good now. Actually good. It turns out he thought I was criticizing him. (I didn't see it that way, but I changed my approach, and things are working very well.)
Mirror relations are not like supervision relations..... I've a number of close SEE friends and it's easy-going relation with neither trying to change the other.
But hey, that is just my relationships. Overreacting much @carrina?...
Also, @Adam Strange I know how I'd use you as an underling. Work wouldn't grind to a halt, far from it. I'd see you like to "lead a team" and I'd give ya one with the authority you'd likely request of me. We both value results so I'd give you a team of good people to complete a vital task. I'd trust in your leadership abilities, you'd complete the task with the team and I'd tell you/expect as such. The best leaders don't lead, they delegate intelligently. If I had a LIE under me I'd know that's what he wants and I'd be sure to accommodate as much as I could.
ILI knows how to plan, usually because he knows what he has and how it could best be used intuitively. A good LIE is a good team leader, so give em' a good team then sit back and enjoy the favorable results. So long as the LIE wants the same things you do the partnership will be quite profitable.
Hi, @End.Also, @Adam Strange I know how I'd use you as an underling. Work wouldn't grind to a halt, far from it. I'd see you like to "lead a team" and I'd give ya one with the authority you'd likely request of me. We both value results so I'd give you a team of good people to complete a vital task. I'd trust in your leadership abilities, you'd complete the task with the team and I'd tell you/expect as such. The best leaders don't lead, they delegate intelligently. If I had a LIE under me I'd know that's what he wants and I'd be sure to accommodate as much as I could.
ILI knows how to plan, usually because he knows what he has and how it could best be used intuitively. A good LIE is a good team leader, so give em' a good team then sit back and enjoy the favorable results. So long as the LIE wants the same things you do the partnership will be quite profitable
I've thought about this before, and I agree that the partnership could be very profitable.
I don't think i was reacting at all but rather "acting" which requires one to choose his words before replying. You're free to disagree though. And given our past history, i can imagine why you'd be calling me out here.
Last edited by bg; 10-02-2015 at 01:55 PM. Reason: don't use real names all creepy like this.
I agree. It's great to be aware of how things can play out but Socionics is just one determining factor. I'll admit that understanding some of these relations had highlighted some previously unknown dislike of multiple people in my life. That said though, i wouldn't take this this description and let it change your perception of anyone you get along with. The people in this Quadra will be great for kinship when you need it. The positives far outweigh the negatives compared to other relations. I also know a few ILIs that aren't slobs for whatever that is worth.
I'd say that of all my friends, the ILI's are some of the most durable and compatible friends I have. I both like and understand them (mostly), and greatly admire the way they think. I guess that my initial adverse feelings regarding the article's information was a result of having Strat point out that there can be problems in the relationship that are inherent. Also, I guess I didn't make it clear that the house and office of the two respective single ILI's I described are the cleanest and most orderly of any houses I've recently been in. So ILI's are not automatically slobs at all. Maybe undualized married ILI's are just expecting to be motivated by their dual to action, and their un-dualized mate can't apply the exact kind of pressure that they want. IDK, just guessing. But I did want to validate, at least in my limited experience, Strat's assertion.
And I agree that same-quadra members are most compatible. Now that I know ESI's exist as a type, I've been looking for them and interacting with them whenever I can find them, and spending time with them invariably makes me happy. (Although the few I've found irl are not suitable for romance, they make great friends.) It is something that surprised the hell out of me. All my life I've been associating with logical types and ignored ethical types out of hand. Duality really is hard to find, especially if you don't know it exists.
Yeah totally. Knowing to pay more attention to ni and te egos is like a godsend.
Now for my ne superego rant: I'd be careful with strats. She makes money with dating services in Socionics but.. How can i say this.. I've never really read anything positive from her. It's always the negative. My warning (maybe silly) is to take what she says with a grain of salt and use your own experiences instead. Her words aren't very motivational. Really the opposite. Many of the very positive things between these types, she didn't mention
Well said. Her activity description of ESI/ILI reads like the two pathetic and worthless people on earth on a express train to murder suicide. All negative. Glass is half empty vs half full.
Dismissing ethical types out of hand, so true for me as well. Demonstrative self righteous Fe irritates me to no end...........I actually resent it, I can feel myself becoming angry. Not just that they are expressing a group morality, but are doing so unashamedly. I once had an argument with a woman at work about office morale, and I said I felt we were at work to work, not to feel good about ourselves, and she told me that I was crazy and should get help because no effective work can be done unless people first felt good about themselves. She was in my face screaming this at me, and I dismissed her as reactionary and too emotional on the spot. This was unwise and ignorant, because we later became very good friends and I love this women. I always struggle with this. What I see on the surface is often wrong. Socionics and age helps.
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