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    Default Rationals vs Irrationals

    Why is it said that irrationals are very flexible almost up to a fault?

    And similarly why are rationals labeled as driven, supposedly able to stay committed to something almost up to a fault?
    @Jack Oliver Aaron
    #as well as any other serious socionics theorists what do you think?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Why is it said that irrationals are very flexible almost up to a fault?

    And similarly why are rationals labeled as driven, supposedly able to stay committed to something almost up to a fault?
    @Jack Oliver Aaron
    #as well as any other serious socionics theorists what do you think?
    I wouldn't quite describe it that way.

    The rationality/irrationality of a person is ordained by their leading function, so to understand how a rational type is different to an irrational person, we need to see how Logic and Ethics function differently to Sensation and Intuition (as well as what each pair has in common).

    For every Ethical and Logical function, the information being metabolised is based on oughts and shoulds... Ethics tells us how people should feel, what I should do to express my feelings, what is good and what is bad, what I should not say to other people etc. Logic tells us the methodologies by which things ought to be done, whether something is correct or incorrect, what I am legally entitled to have, what should be of use.

    For every Intuitive and Sensory function, we find a distinct absence of these oughts and shoulds. Instead we find affirmations of how things are and will be... This is happening now, this may happen later, we could do this etc. At the same time we have affirmations of our desires for things... I want this, this feels comfortable, that is interesting, I would like to go there.

    As a result, we can now see how rational and irrational types fundamentally differ... The Rational type acts according to what he feels he should do... The irrational type pretty much just does what he wants given what he can do. When the irrational finds that the situation is different and that he might want something else, he will switch. The rational may (depending on his reasons) continue on the belief that he has not fulfilled his ought until he has finished his task.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jack Oliver Aaron View Post
    I wouldn't quite describe it that way.

    The rationality/irrationality of a person is ordained by their leading function, so to understand how a rational type is different to an irrational person, we need to see how Logic and Ethics function differently to Sensation and Intuition (as well as what each pair has in common).

    For every Ethical and Logical function, the information being metabolised is based on oughts and shoulds... Ethics tells us how people should feel, what I should do to express my feelings, what is good and what is bad, what I should not say to other people etc. Logic tells us the methodologies by which things ought to be done, whether something is correct or incorrect, what I am legally entitled to have, what should be of use.

    For every Intuitive and Sensory function, we find a distinct absence of these oughts and shoulds. Instead we find affirmations of how things are and will be... This is happening now, this may happen later, we could do this etc. At the same time we have affirmations of our desires for things... I want this, this feels comfortable, that is interesting, I would like to go there.

    As a result, we can now see how rational and irrational types fundamentally differ... The Rational type acts according to what he feels he should do... The irrational type pretty much just does what he wants given what he can do. When the irrational finds that the situation is different and that he might want something else, he will switch. The rational may (depending on his reasons) continue on the belief that he has not fulfilled his ought until he has finished his task.
    THIS. Just as an addition : irrationals seem chaotic (random) or lazy to rationals. Rationals look high-strung and hard ass to irrationals.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    THIS. Just as an addition : irrationals seem chaotic (random) or lazy to rationals. Rationals look high-strung and hard ass to irrationals.
    True in most cases. Although I find it funny imagining an LII live-at-home philosopher calling an SLE CEO lazy.

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    You have asked this question before. It must be of some concern to you. I really pay very little attention to this trait. Where did you get this notion that rationals are driven and so on? Are you referring to Meyers Briggs Judging and P - ing?

    I never notice this trait really. Perhaps I am blind to it. I think all of these traits are a bit situation based also.

    Can you dig a little deeper into your difficulties with it, so somebody can attempt to give a satisfying answer? Why do you think it is problematical?
     
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    @Saberstorm plus to an extent @Ryene Astraelis
    Sergei Ganin uses that definition of the dichotomy and
    generally various schools tend to have a similar definition to what I've described.

    In studying socionics I'm now at the stage of rationally challenging all its claims in order to separate the wishy washy idealist crap from real knowledge that has objective basis with really good evidence behind it. Rationality is simiply the tip of a very huge iceberg of questions I have about the evidence behind the core theory itself. I'm also learning Russian and reading some of messier stuff; they treat it like a science and even offer degrees in it as you know.

    I class MBTI in the same league as the less logically orientated socionics schools. I just ignore them for the most. However the interesting stuff is more to do with the logical schools who aren't as fond of each other nowadays as DarkAngelFireWolf69 has been stating that the TIMs definitions are continuing to diverge as difference logical models arise.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    they treat it like a science and even offer degrees in it as you know.
    Talk to Yaaroslavl about that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Talk to Yaaroslavl about that.
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    I agree with @Saberstorm; that sounds more like MBTI notions of J/P than Socionics. Not all Rationals are driven and focused. I'm a Rational yet fairly distractable, lazy as hell, and prone to dropping/switching personal projects at a whim. I originally rejected the idea of being a Rational because I couldn't see myself as one, and I didn't (and don't) fit IJ temperament descriptions, but I've come to realize that I do very much identify with base, and that's the most important thing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    I agree with @Saberstorm; that sounds more like MBTI notions of J/P than Socionics. Not all Rationals are driven and focused. I'm a Rational yet fairly distractable, lazy as hell, and prone to dropping/switching personal projects at a whim. I originally rejected the idea of being a Rational because I couldn't see myself as one, and I didn't (and don't) fit IJ temperament descriptions, but I've come to realize that I do very much identify with base, and that's the most important thing.
    The trouble with your axonim there is that you define yourself as a measuring rod for what rationality can be. As opposed to starting with an impartial definition for what rationality or irrationality is objectively meant to be. This so that when you formally diagnose yourself or others through a respectable means like an interview. You can work from an impartial ''scientific'' blueprint that can objectively identify and classify real facts about your personality or anybody else's; your claims would have to be falsifiable.

    If you believe that socionics is logically FUBR then there is no point taking the perspective seriously since its core flaw is the assumption there exist a formal way of discerning rationally the claims it asserts.
    Last edited by Soupman; 01-09-2014 at 08:42 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    The trouble with your axonim there is that you define yourself as a measuring rod for what rationality can be. As opposed to starting with an impartial definition for what rationality or irrationality is objectively meant to be. This so that when you formally diagnose yourself or others through a respectable means like an interview. You can work from an impartial ''scientific'' blueprint that can objectively identify and classify real facts about your personality or anybody else's; your claims would have to be falsifiable.
    I was typed EII by a practicing socionist (Rick DeLong) as the result of various videos, an interview, and further correspondence; he told me not to worry about the temperament not matching. (I later changed to ESI, obviously.) So no, this isn't just me spouting crap. And I am not setting myself up as the standard for all Rationals, merely stating that we clearly are not all as you say.

    If you believe that socionics is logically FUBR then there is no point taking the perspective seriously since its core flaw is my assumption there exist a formal way of discerning rationally the claims it asserts.
    I don't believe it's entirely screwed up; I just find some aspects of it more importance and worth noting than others.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    I was typed EII by a practicing socionist (Rick DeLong) as the result of various videos, an interview, and further correspondence; he told me not to worry about the temperament not matching. (I later changed to ESI, obviously.) So no, this isn't just me spouting crap. And I am not setting myself up as the standard for all Rationals, merely stating that we clearly are not all as you say.



    I don't believe it's entirely screwed up; I just find some aspects of it more importance and worth noting than others.
    You know never mind. Though one simple fact about Rick De Long, is that he finally woke up and realised his socionics theory was rubbish, he couldn't ''lie in his own bed'' if you get the expression. He is quite bitter now for obvious reasons. He comes from the less logical socionics school of thought and there are many of those. I'm not being insulting it's just the truth. Your diagnosis will be different depending on the socionics school of thought you employ, logical school have a higher probability of type convergence but that is never guaranteed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    You know never mind. Though one simple fact about Rick De Long, is that he finally woke up and realised his socionics theory was rubbish, he couldn't ''lie in his own bed'' if you get the expression. He is quite bitter now for obvious reasons. He comes from the less logical socionics school of thought and there are many of those. I'm not being insulting it's just the truth. Your diagnosis will be different depending on the socionics school of thought you employ, logical school have a higher probability of type convergence but that is never guaranteed.
    We are not professional socionics people here. That given, you ask very poorly thought out questions: It is as if you do not know what you are looking for. Could you brainstorm some thoughts on rationality and propose some issues to discuss about it? Yes, propose something thought provoking and see if our thoughts unveil anything worthwhile to pursue in greater depth. You are seeking depth, but you are asking strangely surface questions, Go deep to get deeper.
     
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    You know never mind. Though one simple fact about Rick De Long, is that he finally woke up and realised his socionics theory was rubbish, he couldn't ''lie in his own bed'' if you get the expression. He is quite bitter now for obvious reasons. He comes from the less logical socionics school of thought and there are many of those. I'm not being insulting it's just the truth. Your diagnosis will be different depending on the socionics school of thought you employ, logical school have a higher probability of type convergence but that is never guaranteed.
    And you apparently consider Sergei Ganin to be an authority although he focuses on physical VI, writes tests based on overy-simplistic dichotomous concepts, and appears to be the one responsible for everyone's confusion/delusion about the j/p switch. We're even, then.
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    In socionics, Aushra has irrational as cyclotyme and rational as shizotyme.

    I like these terms better than others.

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...gustinaviciute.

    I would check out this article, because it has some fairly unique thoughts on the topic of rationality/irrationality as pertaining to socionics.

    Ausra uses brain hemisphere to explain it although that explanation is outdated. In her days, analytical thinking was left brain and creative thinking was right brain.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lateral...brain_function

    However, modern research suggests this is not all there is.

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    This isn't a set of concepts that is easy to define or describe. Concepts such as intuition is not well understood in psychology or philosophy, intuition for a long time wasn't even taken seriously in psychology and philosophy.

    Recently I have been studying intuition and I came upon this site, which actually coincides with a book I am reading.

    http://artificial-intuition.com/

    This is the site.

    As far as the book.

    This is the book.

    http://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Esc.../dp/0465026567

    The ideas presented on the site is fairly good about intuition, and how it's implementation might be achieved artificially, as well as problems and pitfalls. I think his use of Artificial Intuition is mostly but it's still a valid look at intuition in general and it's usage.

    This site also deal with the problem of intuition vs logic, a subset of the classic problem of perception vs logos, and many variations of irrational vs rational. The problem is probably central problem of different modes of cognition. It's not trivial.

    BTW from what I can tell of this project, it is likely a total failure. From even a glance at how it was approached, I can say it was dead endish from a exploratory standpoint and useless from a commercial one. However this doesn't mean the thoughts aren't a useful puzzle piece. And if they actually made something that work it might be usable. Also this individual in my opinion totally misread the book I talked about amongst other texts which she references.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    This isn't a set of concepts that is easy to define or describe. Concepts such as intuition is not well understood in psychologyI
    ophy, intuition for a long time wasn't even taken seriously in psychology and philosophy.

    Recently I have been studying intuition and I came upon this site, which actually coincides with a book I am reading.

    http://artificial-intuition.com/

    This is the site.

    As far as the book.

    This is the book.

    http://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Esc.../dp/0465026567

    The ideas presented on the site is fairly good about intuition, and how it's implementation might be achieved artificially, as well as problems and pitfalls. I think his use of Artificial Intuition is mostly but it's still a valid look at intuition in general and it's usage.

    This site also deal with the problem of intuition vs logic, a subset of the classic problem of perception vs logos, and many variations of irrational vs rational. The problem is probably central problem of different modes of cognition. It's not trivial.

    BTW from what I can tell of this project, it is likely a total failure. From even a glance at how it was approached, I can say it was dead endish from a exploratory standpoint and useless from a commercial one. However this doesn't mean the thoughts aren't a useful puzzle piece. And if they actually made something that work it might be usable. Also this individual in my opinion totally misread the book I talked about amongst other texts which she references.
    I'm an AI researcher btw and all I can say from a bit of a point of ignorance, her central idea is a bit rubbish and not even new. Prolog is a system already implemented that mimmicks the form of logic she is attempting to describe. The problem with classic AI generally is that the algorithms present don't take into account the chaos of reality seriously hence no wonder why they fail at seemingly ''real Inteligence''
    Last edited by Soupman; 12-10-2013 at 01:35 PM.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    I'm an AI researcher btw and all I can say from a bit of a point of ignorance, her central idea is a bit rubbish and not even new. Prolog is a system already implemented that mimmicks the form of logic she is attempting to describe. The problem with classic AI generally is that the algorithms present don't take into account the chaos of reality seriously hence no wonder why they fail at seemingly ''real Inteligence''
    Yea, but we're not talking AI here, but simply what rationality and irrationality is. In my particular example what Intuition is. There aren't many new ideas in the world, if Prolog mimmicks the implementation of intuition she is attempting to create that's a pro not a con in this discussion. However I'm not sure this is the case.

    What is here is just someone who has made a clear differentiation between intuition and logic and place her flag in the house of intuition. I don't think you really read what she's writing because she's mostly talking about chaos and too complex scenarios and how to deal with it. As I said before, I think she made many mistakes and what she's written to be a misunderstanding of things, however this was not the point of my post but rather it shows the divide that people take on Irrationality vs Rationality. Why is that? Why does she go down here rabbit hole? Why do you go down yours?

    So anyways, back to rationality and irrationality and your question. There are concepts and ideas about what rationality and irrationality are, having rationality or irrationality as the base function in socionics can have a lot of variation. Socionics descriptions are an attempt at a normative statement concerning various non-uniform topics.

    So essentially your question in the beginning is "Why are these normative statements not always true?"
    The answer would be, "Why do you expect them to be always true?"

    You probably should ask another question.

    P.S What AI are you researching and where?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Yea, but we're not talking AI here, but simply what rationality and irrationality is. In my particular example what Intuition is. There aren't many new ideas in the world, if Prolog mimmicks the implementation of intuition she is attempting to create that's a pro not a con in this discussion. However I'm not sure this is the case.

    What is here is just someone who has made a clear differentiation between intuition and logic and place her flag in the house of intuition. I don't think you really read what she's writing because she's mostly talking about chaos and too complex scenarios and how to deal with it. As I said before, I think she made many mistakes and what she's written to be a misunderstanding of things, however this was not the point of my post but rather it shows the divide that people take on Irrationality vs Rationality. Why is that? Why does she go down here rabbit hole? Why do you go down yours?

    So anyways, back to rationality and irrationality and your question. There are concepts and ideas about what rationality and irrationality are, having rationality or irrationality as the base function in socionics can have a lot of variation. Socionics descriptions are an attempt at a normative statement concerning various non-uniform topics.

    So essentially your question in the beginning is "Why are these normative statements not always true?"
    The answer would be, "Why do you expect them to be always true?"

    You probably should ask another question.

    P.S What AI are you researching and where?
    Currently toying with other means of utilizing support vector machines, but as well as every other AI enthusiast out there the trouble I have is trying to be realistic yet adventurous. Recently I was talking to a professor who's to say that the field can break people when the ideas they've slaved for years refuse to work.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Currently toying with other means of utilizing support vector machines, but as well as every other AI enthusiast out there the trouble I have is trying to be realistic yet adventurous. Recently I was talking to a professor who's to say that the field can break people when the ideas they've slaved for years refuse to work.
    I think anyone building an AI and trying to make a human AI is better off thinking about AI and thought experimenting how the mind works. The caveat is unless you're getting paid a lot of money to do it, then make the $$$.

    What I see happening is pretty good as the various algorithms are perfected, although I can imagine how disheartening it is for most AI researchers. IME, there's a lot of lego blocks of the mind being built and once the algorithms are built up there will need to be some assembly required.

    I figure the advancement is going to come from

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_intelligent_system
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/A.I._Systems_Integration

    IMO you should read someone like if you haven't already, this is a LII

    http://www.amazon.com/G%C3%B6del-Esc.../dp/0465026567

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    since this thread is already derailed i'm curious how you're defining "logically oriented" socionists versus less "logically oriented" socionists?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    since this thread is already derailed i'm curious how you're defining "logically oriented" socionists versus less "logically oriented" socionists?
    I got the term from DarkAngelFireWolf69 actually, he has been talking about that recently as he was being attacked for his radical ideas, plus generally he stating that amongst, the logical schools TIM definition has even diverted and now you get arguments from socionics schools insulting each other about how their diagnostic methodology is flawed compared to theirs.

    Sorry for beating around the bush there but to put it succinctly, the logically orientated schools create frameworks for both identifying and diagnosing Type Information Metabolisms, which can be challenged and are falsifiable. In this you'd have thought that TIMs would converge and for the most they tend to have a higher probability of converging which gets to a point where socionics can be treated more like a science.

    However the trouble is that the instrument of falsifiability, humans, is a every difficult tool since people are very dynamic and thus difficult to classify. DarkAngelFireWolf69 has been stated recently that at times you get 2 ''logical'' schools typing the same person differently which leads them to insult each other's logic (were the biggest insult is to not call them logical at all lol). However the second option of challenging your socionics model it self, as opposed to insulting other schools logic, has landed DarkAngelFireWolf69 in trouble since he's got to a point where he is challenging sacred socionics cows like model-a, he is disliked more by other schools as his new theory turns their diagnosis and general understanding upsidedown.
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    Last edited by Soupman; 12-10-2013 at 04:50 PM.

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    I got the term from DarkAngelFireWolf69 actually, he has been talking about that recently as he was being attacked for his radical ideas, plus generally he stating that amongst, the logical schools TIM definition has even diverted and now you get arguments from socionics schools insulting each other about their diagnostic methodology flawed compared to theirs.

    Sorry for beating around the bush there but to put it succinctly, the logically orientated schools create frameworks for both identifying and diagnosing Type Information Metabolisms, which can be challenged and are falsifiable. In this you'd have thought that TIMs would converge and for the most, they tend to have a higher probability of converging which gets to a point where socionics can be treated more like a science.

    However the trouble is that the instrument of falsifiability, humans, is a every difficult tool since people are very dynamic and thus difficult to classify. DarkAngelFireWolf69 has been stated recently that at times you get 2 ''logical'' schools typing the same person differently which leads them to insult each other's logic (were the biggest insult is to not call them logical at all lol). However the second option of challenging your socionics model it self, as opposed to insulting other schools logic, has landed DarkAngelFireWolf69 in trouble since he's got to a point where he is challenging sacred socionics cows like model-a, he is disliked more by other schools as his new theory turns their diagnosis and general understanding upsidedown.
    Post
    I would like to know what frameworks are out there for identifying and diagnosing TIM. It would be interesting to do a meta-analysis of the various schools.

    http://socionics.kiev.ua/article/energ_model/

    This is his DarkAngelFireWolf69's energ_model right? It seems he has grouped cautious/bold functions together(aka E/I functions) and put them in two separate transformation rights. So is his typing methodology starting from E/I method?

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    programmers once considered assembly a high level language, being a set of human-readable instructions mapped to machine code... which proves how old school the old school really was.

    I actually know someone who programmed in machine code as part of his job when writing applications that required extreme optimization.

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    I've always dumbed it down to:
    rationals are most mobile during stability
    irrationals are most mobile during chaos
    Perfect<------------------------------------------------------------------------------>Loops and Tings



    Ambivert / Aggressor / Trailblazer / Nomad / Alpha Caretaker / Free Spirit / Kevlar Speed Demon / Ninja

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    Quote Originally Posted by DJ Arendee View Post
    I've always dumbed it down to:
    rationals are most mobile during stability
    irrationals are most mobile during chaos
    then i would be irrational. theres less reason to run around when everything is fine.

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    hmm,

    Type A vs Type B?
    Perfect<------------------------------------------------------------------------------>Loops and Tings



    Ambivert / Aggressor / Trailblazer / Nomad / Alpha Caretaker / Free Spirit / Kevlar Speed Demon / Ninja

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    I really cannot observe this trait. I appear to be rational, but I need a lot of encouragement to take genuine action. I need people to be enthusiastic about my contribution or I find it very hard to take action. I need something terrible. I need love. Then I am focused. Because of dysfunctions in my immediate family, I tend to get almost no love, and thus I cannot really focus. I am almost in a state of being crippled. I behave like an irrational but I do not think I am one.
     
    God is most glorified when we are most satisfied in Him.
    - John Piper


    Socionics -
    the16types.info

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    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    I think a lot of people are this way I have often thought like this Saber.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    Why is it said that irrationals are very flexible almost up to a fault?

    And similarly why are rationals labeled as driven, supposedly able to stay committed to something almost up to a fault?
    @Jack Oliver Aaron
    #as well as any other serious socionics theorists what do you think?
    Rational = the world as it should be
    Irrational = the world as it is . This makes Rationals driven, committed and demanding . And irrationals relaxed, go-with-the-flow and adaptable.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AshSun View Post
    Rational = the world as it should be
    Irrational = the world as it is . This makes Rationals driven, committed and demanding . And irrationals relaxed, go-with-the-flow and adaptable.
    The idea that being a P is laziness is something that doesn't make sense to be honest. Anyway the version I currently have is that rationality is a proactive before reactive information gathering; whilst irrationality is reactive before proactive information gathering.

    Both processes can be used to actively control a situation and they are critical needing to function in tandem.

    I'm a very driven, committed and demanding irrational type so I wouldn't fit your dichotomy. Plus the process and result dichotomy made things clearer

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    Humanist Beautiful sky's Avatar
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    Rationals want things to be defined and fit into category or understanding
    Irrationals just observe things as they happen either experiencing them internally or externally
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Rationals want things to be defined and fit into category or understanding
    Irrationals just observe things as they happen either experiencing them internally or externally
    I want both.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero11 View Post
    I want both.
    You want a lot

    Here's what I observe in my SEE friends:

    *Drinks a beer, relaxed and laughing; having fun*
    Then starts talking about how she thinks that it's wrong that people in China should be subjected to slave labor like environment...doesn't get stuck in that mode, quickly goes back to drinking beer and having fun.
    -
    Dual type (as per tcaudilllg)
    Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
    Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx


    I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE

    Best description of functions:
    http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html

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    SORRY THIS MESSAGE HAS A SLIGHTLY PATRONIZING FEEL, I DIDN'T MEAN TO DO THAT. If you can look past that I'd be interested in your point of view.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Rationals want things to be defined and fit into category or understanding
    Irrationals just observe things as they happen either experiencing them internally or externally
    ILI Dominant
    The way I explain it is that through my dominant Ni, which is reactive I take into all the possibilities as they forcing them into a world a worldview, a category, understanding. My Ti instead then proactively looks at how I can concretely subordinate core details to build onto the Ni vision I've set as a structure to lean onto.

    LII Dominant
    Whereas the way my quasi identity works is that they begin by proactively extracting concrete details to begin a construct of a worldview, category and understanding, they jump back and forth between such details till they feel their structure is good. And from that their Ni reactively begins to search actual possibilities they can subordinate their given structure of the world to, they form a worldview, category, understanding that fleshes out the idea they want.

    I believe in the subtypes theory and I find that I mistake LII for being my identical when I find their values really aligning with mine, and this is especially true for LII who share my enneagram type. Whereas conversely I find that I'm so different to some ILI that at first I'd thought socionics was a bit broken since I couldn't get them to fit into a clear model but DarkAngelFireWolf69 has really helped in such regards with DCNH.

    I'm cool that you have a different understanding, I'm not interested in ramming my Weltanschauung down other people's throats. Though because I don't quite know your subtype I'm not sure whether we could clash or not. Going by the energomodel your functions would be FiNi whilst mine are NiTi, the heightened Ti I have could cause incompatibilities on a purely functional level; most times that can easily lead people into nasty arguments but personally I just try to be good to everyone.

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    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    I'm cool that you have a different understanding, I'm not interested in ramming my Weltanschauung down other people's throats.
    I've only ever come across one person who insists on using that pretentious German term when there are far simpler and more accessible ones available. You are Boolean11 from PerC, aren't you?
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    I've only ever come across one person who insists on using that pretentious German term when there are far simpler and more accessible ones available. You are Boolean11 from PerC, aren't you?
    You stopped talking to me the other time, at least I thought it was clearly implied and pretty much explained to you that we don't think alike at all, then why would you bring some shallow assumption about me. You are the second person since @Saberstorm to accuse me of being someone else, Sorry, but your vocabulary is quite shallow if you think weltanchauung is an exotic word, I'm being honest here.

    How stupid are you? I'm being frank here. I would have ignored this response due to the sheer stupidity behind it, but I'm convinced you simply can't read between the lines.

    I also noticed your trouble with interpersonal skills and I'm bewildered as to why after 4 years of looking at the personality theory nonsense, which it is for the most given the poor research behind it. You haven't even decided to learn about how fucking irritating and insensitive you are mistakenly judging others as if they are yourself, jesus christ are you that much of a slow learner. You always harass some poor soul and your arguments are closed minded and abrasive.
    Last edited by Soupman; 01-09-2014 at 04:37 PM.

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    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Soupman View Post
    You stopped talking to me the other time at least I it was clearly implied, then why would you bring some shallow assumption about me without much evidence. You are the second person since Saberstorm to accuse me of being someone else.
    If I was going on assumption, I would simply decide that it was you and proceed from there without seeking to first confirm my suspicion. I have given you the consideration of first consulting you rather than falsely and unjustly mislabeling you to other people. You are welcome to deny my question if it is not true. And it doesn't seem that you have thus far, just expressed outrage that I dare to ask if you might be so-and-so from a completely different forum. That's not accusing you of being someone else. If you were simply offended by my tone, I would understand, but you're even upset that I asked at all, which makes absolutely no sense.

    Sorry, but your vocabulary is quite shallow if you think weltanchauung is an exotic word, I'm being honest here.
    In all of my time socializing IRL and online, I have come across one or two people who have used that word, be they American or foreigner. These boards pull in people from all countries. So yes, I do have reason to think it an unusual word that the majority of people probably have not been exposed to or at least do not toss around in common conversation. Perhaps in your community, this is a common expression; I'll give you that possibility. The fact remains that, to quote a friend, you are using a five-dollar word when a fifty-cent one would suffice.

    How stupid are you? I'm being frank here. I would have ignored this response due to the sheer stupidity behind[...]"
    Nice to know that wondering whether you are someone else and criticizing your vocabulary shows sheer stupidity. Then again, you only respect people who recognize your incredibly impressive intellect (as you informed me in that PM), so perhaps I should not be surprised at this.

    but I'm convinced you simply can't read between the lines.
    What lines exist to be read between? You are welcome to point them out.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    So fluffeh. Cuddly McFluffles's Avatar
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    Also, rest assured that this contact is an exception rather than an indication that I wish to converse with you habitually. I'm not that masochistic.
    Johari/Nohari

    "Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."

    Fruit, the fluffy kitty.

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    When talk about people turns into talk about computer logic you can be sure there is a case of professional deformity at hand.

    logic doesn't get you laid soupman!

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