Subtypes and a Structural Explanation

[Waddlesworth]

The concept of sub-types has been a little bit fuzzy for me, but with my recent change in perspective I have been able to come up with a conclusion which should explain many questions which have frequently been brought up on the board.

Someone may have already touched on this in the past.


Introverted behaving extraverts, extraverted introverts:

Now, they are out there. This implies the extravert conserves more of its energy, the introvert expends more of its energy. This, however, may not necessarily imply strength of the 7th function relative to the 1st(although there may be something here), so, a quiet ENTp isnt going to be very INTp, but rather something else.

In reality this could have to do with a producing/creative subtype. This could explain why, for example, withdrawn extraverts may tend to be more "creative" than the louder ones.

so it really has to do with a fusion of the j/p and e/i scales, rather than a linear MBTI style "degree of expression".

These subtypes may not actually exist in individual functions, but rather in the aspect of accepting or producing functions(j/p). So, with this said, the concept of a "quiet extravert" could imply that they have a strong judgement/creative capacity. The function you notice more is the one receiving more stimulation for whatever reason.

And with introverts, for an INTj to have an subtype they must also expend more energy, and, I would assume, have an even better developed subtype as well- One subtype automatically implies that the other corresponding inhibited function must also be strengthened.

So, since energy is being expended there is a price that the accepting functions(or producing, if the accepting functions are the subtype) must pay.

An Extraverted Perceiver with a perceiving subtype will be more forceful, sensual, and general in behavior and less conscious of their creative logical and ethical capacity.

You should get the drift now.

For me to have a strong ethical sub-type perhaps I must actually have a strong creative sub-type which would include logic, which would imply energy conservation and therefore withdrawl.

Of course, stimulation of functions by outside forces can and does cause this.

This is only an Idea, but its structural and I think that it's one of the best explanations available for us right now.

[Smilingeyes]

I think you're right on track Ww. On this site the subtypes are called by name of the first and second functions in each case separately. Yet another nomenclature is also in use in which the subtypes are called not eg. intuitive and thinking but terminal and initial corresponding to whether the person is preferring his first or second function.

I think your observation of what you call increased creativity of "introvert" extroverts is correct and important. I think there are at least two matters related to this. First, the introversion slows the person down, thus giving more time to invest in quality rather than quantity of things produced. The other matter is of course that with greater use of the second function, the person's opinions and deeds reflect a greater amount of informational input. To make it simpler... Te < Te+Ni = more useful results.

Now I would expect that the situation was transposed for primary introvert types. I would expect preference of the second function to then correspond to increased productivity, but not necessarily better quality. This of course can also be called increased creativity.

As the creative function of authority is connected and energized by the 4th function of phobia you can also postulate that subtype actually corresponds with self-confidence and good self-image. Whether this is true... I don't know.

Anyway, when I contrast myself as an intuitive with many Te-type ENTJs I see they create much more results but commit a lot more errors and produce many things that I consider, well... substandard.

Is this in concordance with your experiences Ww?

-Smilex

[Waddlesworth]

From what I have read Introversion and extraversion are described as such. Introversion is enerergy conserving, Extraversion is energy expending.

I'll try and find a better source to cite in regards to that, but I'm certain the definition is out there.

[Waddlesworth]

Anyway, when I contrast myself as an intuitive with many Te-type ENTJs I see they create much more results but commit a lot more errors and produce many things that I consider, well... substandard.

Is this in concordance with your experiences Ww?

Unfortunately I don't have much time to elaborate right now, but yes, this is according to my experiences. As a more reserved ENTp I find my thoughts to be better composed, but also that my ethical dealings are more considerate of the needs of others. I do feel I have greater confidence in myself, yet strangely it rarely manifests as arrogance. My Se is definitely less notable than in many ENTp's.

[Waddlesworth]

I'll have to think of this question a bit, because naturally you're seeing another side of it. I think that it has to simply do with strength. strength activates weakness.

But I'll have to think about it.

[discourse]

Could it be like this? I will explain it with the example of ENTP. When ENTP is Intuitive Sb, it has near by and it makes it's stronger. When ENTP is Logical, it has near by and this makes ENTP more introverted and rational. So for example when being with ISTP ENTP is more likely to be Intuitive subtype and with INFP ENTP might morel likely be Logical subtype.

[Waddlesworth]

I think that we aren't quite ready to make too many assumptions about what makes a person develop into a type. All we know is that at some point the type becomes manifest through the behavior of an idividual. It could have to do with the mind alone, the experience, or the body, mind, and experience. So a persons physical build, their intellectual strengths, and how their scenery is structured might have an effect.

From my understanding it is the organism itself which concludes what is and or and or and etc...

This is based on its inherent sensitivities. So if you put some sensing type in a room, like an ESFp, and started stimulating them with alot of what you call their would be dominant accepting, still. I think that its the organism/person which decides what is what. Each function is just a side of reality, an angle, or approach.

But this stuff is pretty complicated. much thinking to do.

[Waddlesworth]

Could it be like this? I will explain it with the example of ENTP. When ENTP is Intuitive Sb, it has near by and it makes it's stronger. When ENTP is Logical, it has near by and this makes ENTP more introverted and rational. So for example when being with ISTP ENTP is more likely to be Intuitive subtype and with INFP ENTP might morel likely be Logical subtype.

This has made me think. I agree with it so long as the is producing, and not accepting, when it is accepting, from my own experiences, it seems that I am more extraverted and irrational(when in terms of activity partner). But yet, when Im supervising an ENFj i definitely am quite rational, yet still extraverted, and find myself discussing spiritual aspects of things more.

I'm sort of in a rush now, the above is more of an intuitive glance. Ill look into it more specifically.

This is a good thought though. I'm glad we're on the same page.