INTjs: friendship, love, dating

[Mastermind]

INTjs on love. On dating. On marriage. On friendship. On having family. On hating family. Please, responses welcome.

[UDP]

There's nobody in my family like me, and I'm really distant from everyone, save for one relationship in my immediate family. I get along 'okay' with people, but there is nothing I can talk about. Most of them are S types, and just interested in day to day stuff. Which is fine, but..... I'm a theory man. (see signature)

[Mastermind]

I love your signature

[UDP]

Thanks. I try to live up to it as best I can. The first two are a default, but I can always make myself tougher and more uncompromising. I'm rather soft right now, I feel.


The Eckhart quote (Tolle) is from "A New Earth" -- you might like it.
The socionics stuff is from the Socionics website, which is linked here. But you probably already knew that.

[Polly_G]

I get along 'okay' with people, but there is nothing I can talk about. Most of them are S types, and just interested in day to day stuff. Which is fine, but..... I'm a theory man. (see signature)

I can emphathise. I am curious about the answers to the other questions though. I just broke up with an INTj. I actually really liked him. I found him awesome to talk to and we would talk for long periods and he ACTUALLY managed to hold my attention span.

He really confused me though. He chased and chased but once he got me, backed right off in a big way. We seemed to have a huge amount in common and all the ingrediants were there for a good relationship. But then he started to doubt everything and didn't think he was really interested in me in 'that way' anymore. I'm not the type to sit back and wait for someone to resolve their confusion so I ended it.

I'm wondering though if this is some type of INTj self-destructive behavior. Things finally came to a complete hault on Thursday of last week. After him hinting for a couple of weeks he was really interested, spending every couple of days with me, sending me messages.....when I finally responded he started having doubts about the whole thing 2 days later.

So after discussing it for a couple of days I decided I was not going to be in a relationship with someone who wasn't even sure apparently anymore if they wanted to be with me. This was on Thursday.

He went away for the weekend and on Monday met some girl on the internet and decided to have coffee with her on impulse. They are now practically living together by the looks of things.

I had some of his things so went over to drop them off and pick up some of mine. He didn't tell me she was there and had invited me over actually to sit for a 'visit'. So here I am...with the new gf and just kind of feeling EXTREMELY awkard.

Then to make things worse, they started to make googly eyes at each other.

I mean you'd have to be a pretty daft INTj to not know that wasn't rude, uncalled for and completely disrespectful to someone's feelings who didn't deserve it.

From an INTjs perspective can you explain this any other way other than maybe he was a complete Narcissist?

This does not seem the logical behavior I would expect from an INTj. I do think he is one though. He's done the test and fits the profile quite well for the most part. Accept he's extremely messy, something I wouldn't think of an INTj.

I have a friend who is a female INTj who just dated a male INTj who had the same thing happen to her. The pursuit and the way things ended were done in an almost cruel way. There was no regard to consequences of boosting someone up, pursuing them...then losing interest quickly.

An intuitive screwing with an intuitive is just well...mean.

[oyburger]

When we get close to someone fast it freaks us out, it doesn't matter if its platonic or not. One way of dealing with that is to back away. When we freak out sometimes it causes us to lose interest, sometimes not.

Inviting you over with the new girlfriend, though, doesn't sound like INTj behavior, at least I wouldn't do that

[UDP]

I am wicked serious about relationships, and don't think I'd be able to those things.


If they really were INTjs, stay away from them, because they aren't properly developed. If it really was an INTj, and their isn't well developed, then look out indeed. They probably won't have any confidence in themselves because their values aren't there, and they don't really have any structure, even though they think they do. They think they should have it, so they assume they have it, but really they don't.

I don't know if that makes any sense, but speaking for myself that is something I can relate to.



Also, if an INTj has a girlfriend quickly following a relationship break up, then he is most likely using it to deal with the realtionship -- which is another childish thing. If he was seeing her whilst being with you, then I don't think I could call him an INTj, or he is at least psychologically unstable, or just very very narcissitic. Most likely, he was either really upset with you and doing it onpurpose, or he was secretly hurt and fell into another relationship very easily. Either way, it doesn't sound like a great person to be around.

But I don't know how you acted in the relationship either. From what you've said, though, he definitely sounds like someone with some relationship problems.

I think a lot of guys have the "I want a relationship!" drive in them, but then when it really comes about they are faced with it, and they get scared. It might not even be anything personal, just something the guy has to deal with on his own. I am once again reminded of what you asid before -- that people were looking for something in you that they could only find within themselves.

[Rocky]

Thanks. I try to live up to it as best I can. The first two are a default, but I can always make myself tougher and more uncompromising. I'm rather soft right now, I feel.


The Eckhart quote (Tolle) is from "A New Earth" -- you might like it.
The socionics stuff is from the Socionics website, which is linked here. But you probably already knew that.

I've always thought the third one was BS for INTJs.

[UDP]

It all depends on what light.

I see what you mean and what you are getting at --- I can easily come across as kind of a pussy.


But knowing that, and knowing my weaknesses, and especially with the "My god, what the hhell is wrong with this world. They all need to be corrected" attitude, I can get into B A UDP mode.

(BA as in Mr T Style --- "Bad Attitdue" )


Heh heh heh.


Keep in mind I'm an INTJ, not an INTP, too.
INTJ seems to be a little more ballsy than some INTP profiles, from what I remembered.

But then I rembere some things that said both were really confident. It all, to me, seems to be how well developed my logic/confidence is.
For what it's worth, I have always been uncompromising, and worked on dealing with difficult things.

I really like the 3rd one, because it reminds me to remember that I've got to have that harder side, the colder side, the side that doesn't give a damn. ((Actually, I got rather carried away with it about 6 months ago... it was a good learning experience, and I don't have to prove so much anymore because of it. But it is something worth maintain, for personal power.)) Or as I saw on some INTJ profiles - self power awareness.



PS: and don't think that I don't know how this post comes across. If I wanted to post like Pedro to prove a point and seem more cold and logical, I could. But I'm not really feeling it right now. I'm rather happy and upbeat at this time.

[Polly]

They probably won't have any confidence in themselves because their values aren't there, and they don't really have any structure, even though they think they do. They think they should have it, so they assume they have it, but really they don't.

This kinds of reminds me of the situation actually.

When we'd speak, he'd say stuff that showed a real lack of awareness as to how society really works. His ideas were logical only when applied to his narrow views of what he considers right and wrong.

His ideas, at least at this point, won't realistically work because there are sometimes more than one right answer (something he vehemently disagrees with as well). You HAVE to value other people's opinions. He says he does...but I don't think he really does.

He wears his IQ and intelligence like a shield and feels that because he is smarter than the rest of the world he should be making their decisions for them. His IQ is 160 (yeah, you'd think it was 260 though with the way he goes on about it) but he has no emotional maturity obviously. That skews a persons logical judgement.

As for how I treated him, actually quite well. When we first started hanging out he hit really ruff times waiting for an invoice to come through. He had barely any food and 2 weeks to wait. I brought him over some food a couple times (we were still friends at this point) because I felt some guy was starving to death with no food.

I invited him over for beers and supper to feed hm and get him out having some fun. The whole time using the word "friend" quite a bit so he'd understand the boundary.

At that point, I sincerely wasn't interested in him for anything other than friendship. He had a crush on another girl and I just got rid of one guy because it hadn't worked out. I didn't actually want to jump right into another relationship.

He kept dropping hints that he was interested in me though and I didn't want to lead him on but I sincerely enjoyed his company at the same time. So after some thought, I decided to go for it and open myself up to him. 2 days later (right before his money comes and he can return some favors)...he changes his mind ....4 days after that...hooks up with another and (just found this out last night) had sex with her one hour after meeting her for a coffee....some stranger off the internet. Now they are practically living together and he's 'in love' yet again.

I sent him a message this morning telling him not to contact me anymore, there was no friendship and that I basically thought he was a discusting little prick who was a completely dysfunctional human being

I'm half tempted to contact his new gf (I met her and she's actually quite nice) and tell her exactly what kind of man she now has.

Obviously I didn't pick up on a lot of this stuff while we were together or thought it was kind of harmless type stuff and some of it just downright amusing.

I was attracted more so to his other qualities like how we could converse so easily, his creativity, his tenacity and he did give me quite the story that played on my sympathies regarding his past.

[UDP]

Hmm... he sounds like someone who needs to grow up, mm-hmm.

• When we'd speak, he'd say stuff that showed a real lack of awareness as to how society really works. His ideas were logical only when applied to his narrow views of what he considers right and wrong.

  Yes, this is very
  
  It is important for everyone, but ESPECIALLY for types to make sure they're paradigms are good (I made a General Discussion thread about this a while back, but I don't know what it was called). It is very important to constantly update them, and seek out the best ones. Because, really, you can't tell they are wrong. We went over that before. So it really is 's responsibility to seek out this information. You don't tell them what to do, but show them options, and let them pick.
  The truth is, I was REALLY LUCKY to figure this out. How I did it was interesting, and in no way did I directly intend for it to happen.
  
  

• and he did give me quite the story that played on my sympathies regarding his past.

  That's trouble. Again, speaking only for myself, and perhaps for ... that was the root of a lot of my problems. I didn't even realize how attached I was to the past. What I was really doing was using paradigms from 3-4 years ago, when I was a much different (and younger in general) person . I didn't really incorperate anything I learned between now and then into my paradigms. I did worked on how I acted and my behaviors, but not my paradigms. My values were there, but I didn't translate it into modifying the way that I think. ((sidenote: this is why I like Stephen Covey's books alot, because I have actually seen this happn in my life -- paradigm shifting and so forth, and the growth that comes with it. That is why I recommended his books to INTjs in the "advice for" thread))
  

• As for how I treated him, actually quite well. When we first started hanging out he hit really ruff times waiting for an invoice to come through. He had barely any food and 2 weeks to wait. I brought him over some food a couple times (we were still friends at this point) because I felt some guy was starving to death with no food.

  Well, on behalf of an INTj brother, I thank you. There are so many times that I am doing something or caught up in something, and I really just don't feel like making or getting food, or even eating it. So things like that are always nice.

Hmm... I wonder, though -- if an INTj can be 'that bad', I wonder 'how good' a really good ESFp could be......

Oh well.
.....Time for lunch

[Polly]

Thanks for your comments UDP. I know he isn't a typical INTj just because fortunately I have a female friend who is an INTj and she is nothing like him in that regard.

She's actually quite sweet but VERY shy. If she was a guy I'd totally date her

It was so weird though that were both dating INTj guys and went through pretty much the exact same scenario within a week of each other. We were both pretty shocked by the behavior. It all seemed so cruel and yes...illogical.

We were discussing that we think that those with higher intellects may be more prone to narcissism than other types.

[UDP]

You are welcome.

We were discussing that we think that those with higher intellects may be more prone to narcissism than other types.

Very much so, mostly because they have to be. Their thoughts are their strength, and they are their own subjective thoughts, and as such their own ego is involved. (I've never been, but I here there are a lot of quacks at harvard who are essentially ~exemplification maximals~ of this. )


Honeslty, that is why I have my confidence, I believe. I developed my ego block. But I was fortunate enough to realize that I was being way too haughty. Now, at least, I can not be so direct and forward about it. And without considering (which I like a lot), a spiritual perspective of things, there is a side of my that is very arrogant.

From an standpoint -- what do I do? I don't have a bunch of friends, or a lot of social influence. I am not rich. I probably won't be a professional athlete.... so... how I am I going to be confident and go about the world? By having confidence in my thoughts, and being intellectually haughty, at least somewhat. It really, in one way, "isn't anything personal". And as above --- how much more so, if they really Don't have any social skills, etc. Then you have to put all your eggs in one basket, and make that basket be pretty damn important to you.


Another angle is that, since their area of confidence is their logic and how things are interpreted, they will be think of themselves very highly, and be very confident about certain things. A lot of (I)NT profiles have noted that, and I think it is a resonable thing.



Sort of a speculatory guess -- I think when someone gets really haughty and arrogant, that is a sign that they have filled their own cup to the max, so to say, and it is ready to be emptied. As in, they are ready to be humbled. If they can go through the humbling process successfully, then I think they can make major break throughs. Like I was saying in another thread, eventually Logics overlaps into Ethics. And I think for either catagory, you can only reach so many levels if you only stick to one of the dichotomies. So to restate that: if you stick to just logics or just ethics, your ability to really interpret reality, and likely any other understanding, will be limited.

I would imagine, also, that this is very true for all the other dichotomies. (maybe I'll ask tcau about this on his site). Hmm....

[oyburger]

UDP has once again put the thoughts in my head into words.

My only problem, though is that my logic and my ideas are all I have and what I'm confident in, but most people I meet seem to think that I'm nuts because of them.
This makes my confidence in my logic and ideas go down. That’s a bad place when that’s all you've got.

For instance, no one can follow my logic; therefore to them I'm illogical. When I try to explain how I got from point A to point 5, they roll their eyes and call me a know-it-all.

The other day I was explaining to a friend I hadn't seen in a year about how to pronounce certain vowels in Japanese (we were at a sushi bar) and she said "wow, your really, really smart (why is this considered smart?). My other friend who I see frequently groaned and said, "don't tell her that, now she'll never shut up”.

I don't mean to sound like a know-it-all but I seem to drive everyone around me crazy with all of my useless knowledge. Apparently no one wants to know the things that I do, so I end up shutting down and quit communicating altogether.

[/ramble over]

[UDP]

Ah, you just need better friends!


Actually, I know just what you mean. I get that way a lot, with a lot of people.

I guess, if you want to stretch it, I've learned some "social skills", in terms of how to say less, or say nothing at all, really. Or how to try to hint at what I am thinking about without getting into it.

Once someone asks me to 'explain something to them', I have to be careful. I try to ... disclaim myself, by saying something to the effect of "do you want the long version or short version?", etc. That, and knowing the other person helps, but that isn't always an easy thing. Knowing how much they might care about what you are talking about, etc.


The majority of people I come across don't seem to care about my theories, or the future. This is somewhat depressing --- if I begin to rely on them for my well being. But thank god for the internet and places like this. Socionics gives me a sort of safe harbor to coninue my analysis of human beings, as well as where we are and where we can go (which, ultimlately it seems, will be a major part of my life). Furthermore, it made me realize that I probably need to be in a sort of leadership position or facilitator -- of getting us from where we are to where we can/need to go.

((ANY SUGGESTIONS about how I can do that are always welcomed - please pm me or write them here. I know this sounds strange, but more about it elsewhere))


going back to the original topic...

My only problem, though is that my logic and my ideas are all I have and what I'm confident in, but most people I meet seem to think that I'm nuts because of them.

Oh well.

Sometimes I feel like I really am in a world where most people are a slightly ... off. I guess the best thing for me to say is that I see a lot of room to grow, so much possibility.

[Polly]

Well, just to give you an update. I sent him a beyond scathing email. I don't analyze everyone, but when I do I can pick out their faults and I assualted his intelligence, physical appearance, and emotional maturity in the email (I was ever so slightly buzzed and just got home from a party with my friend who had also had a bad INTj experience).

I even told him his over-confidence is a complete joke. Whenever he expressed it, people burst out laughing at him behind his back. (cruel yes, but he was cruel too...tit for tat).

The goal of the email was, if I was kicking him out of my life and burning that bridge, I was going to cause a few bruises to him on the way out...simply because he deserved it.

I haven't been home much all weekend so just got his message this morning asking to talk to me all about this because he still wants to be my friend really bad.

First...I can't believe he'd want to be friends with me after that email. I know it hurt because all the jabs were based on truth. I just mingled it with sarcasm and arrogance.

Secondly...why would he think I'd want to be friends with someone who had so little respect for my feelings? I have far too much pride and self-respect for that.

I haven't replied yet and dunno if I'll bother.

ok...NEXT!!!!

Re Intellectuals and arrogance I actually wrote a post about that in another forum. I'll see if I can find it and cut and paste it here.

In regards to the INTj social skills. I actually get along and appreciate INTjs very well and never really could understand why they rub so many people the wrong way.

There were a few things I have noticed that may/may not be INTj related but which harm them in social situations...

1. When excited about an idea, overwhelm those around them with their enthusiasm. The level of intensity they are putting out requires that the person they are speaking to can give that level of intensity back. Not many can. Basically, be more choosey as to who you are share your exciting ideas with.

2. Sometimes, thought is better left unspoken. I find that INTjs sometimes have trouble differentiate between the two. Good thing is, there are certain rules you can learn to apply that will help you get along better.

a) Don't talk about your 'superior' intelligence unless you are speaking to someone who has an equal level of awareness and intelligence. To everyone else, you are boasting and its not attractive. To another intellect, we find it kind of fascinating.

b)Don't always force the conversation into areas of information and theory. In many cases, you will be the only one able to converse about the topic. You are no longer in a social situation but a teacher/student situation. These people want to go out to supper/dancing..whatever. The last thing some want to have to do is have to learn new things.

These are people you can have a lot of fun with. They may never become your bosum buddies but having fun and getting out in the world is important too. Making friends with these types can help you do that. Learn from them their superior social skills.

c) If you are sitting there thinking a person's ideas are completely stupid. You aren't really listening to them. You're blocking them out because there are usually good ideas to be had from even these conversations. Learn to appreciate other perspectives....even the ones you disagree with.

3. Acting odd, bizarre and out of place. I like this too much about the INTj to get them to stop

4. You are smart enough to be able to differentiate between those who are more the intellectual type who you can share your ideas with and those who are not. When with another intellectural type, its ok to let your guard down a lot more. However, if you don't relax....neither will they and you might miss out on a new great friend.

[Expat]

He really confused me though. He chased and chased but once he got me, backed right off in a big way. We seemed to have a huge amount in common and all the ingrediants were there for a good relationship. But then he started to doubt everything and didn't think he was really interested in me in 'that way' anymore. I'm not the type to sit back and wait for someone to resolve their confusion so I ended it.

I'm wondering though if this is some type of INTj self-destructive behavior. Things finally came to a complete hault on Thursday of last week. After him hinting for a couple of weeks he was really interested, spending every couple of days with me, sending me messages.....when I finally responded he started having doubts about the whole thing 2 days later.

So after discussing it for a couple of days I decided I was not going to be in a relationship with someone who wasn't even sure apparently anymore if they wanted to be with me. This was on Thursday.

He went away for the weekend and on Monday met some girl on the internet and decided to have coffee with her on impulse. They are now practically living together by the looks of things.

He sounds Irrational to me, not an INTj.

I had some of his things so went over to drop them off and pick up some of mine. He didn't tell me she was there and had invited me over actually to sit for a 'visit'. So here I am...with the new gf and just kind of feeling EXTREMELY awkard.

Then to make things worse, they started to make googly eyes at each other.

I mean you'd have to be a pretty daft INTj to not know that wasn't rude, uncalled for and completely disrespectful to someone's feelings who didn't deserve it.

From an INTjs perspective can you explain this any other way other than maybe he was a complete Narcissist?

This does not seem the logical behavior I would expect from an INTj. I do think he is one though. He's done the test and fits the profile quite well for the most part. Accept he's extremely messy, something I wouldn't think of an INTj

When we'd speak, he'd say stuff that showed a real lack of awareness as to how society really works. His ideas were logical only when applied to his narrow views of what he considers right and wrong.

, not perhaps .

His ideas, at least at this point, won't realistically work because there are sometimes more than one right answer (something he vehemently disagrees with as well). You HAVE to value other people's opinions. He says he does...but I don't think he really does.

or

He kept dropping hints that he was interested in me though and I didn't want to lead him on but I sincerely enjoyed his company at the same time. So after some thought, I decided to go for it and open myself up to him. 2 days later (right before his money comes and he can return some favors)...he changes his mind ....4 days after that...hooks up with another and (just found this out last night) had sex with her one hour after meeting her for a coffee....some stranger off the internet. Now they are practically living together and he's 'in love' yet again.

Again, sounds Irrational.

I sent him a message this morning telling him not to contact me anymore, there was no friendship and that I basically thought he was a discusting little prick who was a completely dysfunctional human being

I was attracted more so to his other qualities like how we could converse so easily, his creativity, his tenacity and he did give me quite the story that played on my sympathies regarding his past.

I'd say ENTp is more likely than INTj.

[Polly]

I actually thought he might be an ENTp too at first. He reminds me of a really out of control me sometimes. I definately have more social skills though.

As I got to know him I saw more differences. One of the things we enjoyed doing was talking about our ideas about the world and changes which could be made to improve things. His plan and my plan were MUCH different. His was about control and taking thought away from people and getting them to function following a system. To me, that would hault human evolution and take away individual freedoms which he had no right to take away.

My system was more socialist with capitalism mixed him. I found his more totalitarian in nature. Its not a society I would function well in.

I'm seeing much more of an introverted way of thinking than I tend to look at things. He definately seems far more judgmental and sees things in a far more black and white fashion than I do. I found I liked his ideas and found them interesting but all faulted in some major way because they lacked a certain awareness of how the world really is.

He definately sees himself as a mastermind. Although a really smart guy, I find him idealistic. I am idealistic too...but realistic as well. I'm not the dimmest but I'm also not the brightest bulb in the box...I'm content with that.

Another difference between us is that I seemed to have a higher respect for other cultures. He didn't undervalue any particular culture but felt the world's problems would just be solved if we were all the same one and culture should be kind of done a way with. This makes me gasp.

Variety and individualism are the same things which would actually allow him to accomplish his goals. Why would you take that way from other people once you did? God complex? Control issues?

The only thing we agreed on was that people should not be able to move forward in life based sheerly on their social, financial or family status.

[Mariano Rajoy]

polly, i don't think you are too far off in your typing of intj for your friend. i will say that i have been guilty of chasing then backing off quickly, and other things that you mention. some things don't fit into socionics profiles. intj's that actually have a social life is one of them. not that intj's are always bumbling social idiots, but given a sex drive governed by polr Se paired with emo prone Fi, and you have potential for disaster and/or awkwardness. i am sorry to hear that you had to see him with someone else, that is always unpleasant, but at least it was short term so as to not get too involved.

i will make a general suggestion for anyone that cares to read it: only date intj's that have had 1. a low number of long term relationships, or 2. very few/zero relationships. both are better than an intj that has a large number of short term relationships. 1) and 2) are not damaged goods, so to speak.

[UDP]

Hmm, maybe that is how I should advertise for myself --- "Undamaged Goods"


It is actually quite true. I don't have nearly as much baggage as everyone else seems to... which is something I'm happy about --

[Mariano Rajoy]

Hmm, maybe that is how I should advertise for myself --- "Undamaged Goods"


It is actually quite true. I don't have nearly as much baggage as everyone else seems to... which is something I'm happy about --

the flip side is, women can tell you are inexperienced, and don't see you as a potential.

[UDP]

Yeah, I know. I was being light hearted.

[Polly]

the flip side is, women can tell you are inexperienced, and don't see you as a potential.

Unfortunately this is correct. I wouldn't mind dating someone who was in one long term relationship but guys who haven't been able to have a successful relationship screams RED FLAG for me.

'Teaching' someone to be in a relationship is a huge amount of work. When you are single for a really long time you become very set in your ways. Its hard to adapt to another individual.

The baggage some of these people have is that they have had a very long time to think about self and what self wants and needs. They aren't used to taking into consideration another person's feelings.

At least that's how I tend to think of things when I hear someone has spent an inordinate amount of time being single.

Keep in mind here, I'm 33 too. I do expect that men I would date would have AT LEAST one serious longterm relationship by that time.

P.S. The INTj in question actually did have a social life. He was very awkward but constantly put himself out there. He would do things out of character and found out he loved them....like dancing. He loves to dance and takes Capoiera (sp?) which is a style of dancing/martial arts.

He also played the Harmonica. He used it as a tool to get to know people in situations where he couldn't draw attention to himself in a positive way otherwise.

Even then...it was all sometimes a bit weird. But people liked him for the same reason they like Napolean Dynamite. He might be odd but he was definately an interesting character. But 'like' was in extremes. People either really liked him or really disliked him.

[UDP]

The majority of people I come across do not know how to opperate in relationships, regardless of type or 'experience'



That's all I'll say

[Polly]

This is true. A thorn in my side actually.

A red flag though doesn't mean I won't date someone. It just means its definately something I'll watch out for.

If I'm attracted to someone physically and mentally and they treat me right, they probably wouldn't have anything to worry about red flag or no.

I ended all my serious relationships after a lot of work. Its when it gets to the point where the work is going to cause so much resentment and pain between the two people, that trust is affected that I tend to throw in the towel.

Top reasons I've broken up with a guy are: Selfishness, lack of respect for me, lack of attention to me, and taking me for granted.

[UDP]

I'm trying to balance between being selective and having values. I don't like it, because I prefer to be uncompromising . But really, I just want someone who is relatively sane. A hot Ixfj would be really cool, and maybe an ESFj, or ENFj. Gotta be j, though. It's just the way it is.

This year at college I am going to be on the look out, though. Anyone who i see as having potential I'm going to at least investigate. Good people are hard to come by.

[Polly]

Just be careful not to get too focused on the 'j" thing. There are a lot who balance their j/p quite nicely so they might be harder to pick out.

There are also p's who you might find you have so much in common with and appreciate your j factor because its their weakness. It might annoy them sometimes, but they still value it.

Duality is an interesting concept but nature would not have made so few NTs if it was necessary to carry on a successful relationship.

I guess for me, Duality is the one concept of socionics that doesn't make as much sense to me just because of my beliefs when it comes to balance in nature. Statistically speaking the SFs outnumber the NTs greatly so that means there would be a large portion of SFs who had no balanced match.

Something about this seems wrong to me.

[UDP]

Yeah, I know what you mean, and I've wondered about that myself. I am glad you brought it up.

[Polly]

Well MBTI theory says that my perfect match is actually an INFJ or INTJ.

It's hard to say how these two types would transfer to socionics (if they even do) but my experience is that intuitives tend to remain intuitives even after the conversion. Whether they convert I think just depends on the individual and their strenghts in various functions....so they will be similar to their MBTI type at least usually...

I haved dated (and/or been friends with) both the INFj/J and and INTJ/j and have to say I felt a much deeper connection with them than any S type I ever dated. It had to do with awareness and understanding. They both seem to appreciate my intelligence in a way others can't and I can talk to them about things and get feedback that I actually appreciate and have faith in.

I am not detail oriented. I suck at math (well never really bothered with it actually). I'm more interested in the concepts which are produced by other's uses of mathematics. I understand the concepts without understanding the details behind it.

This went completely unquestioned by the INTj. INTjs trust my intuition in a way others don't and it feels pretty nice actually. We teach each other a lot and I value each other's opinions. They don't pay as much attention to my feelings though as I'd sometimes like.

The INFj would challenge me quite often to prove my ideas and tell him how I knew what I knew (eg what book did I study that from). But our values and many of our beliefs were very similar. I had to learn to respect his feeling type of logic just as he had to learn to respect the way I perceive information.

I find when it comes to sensing types, I have no problems really understanding or getting them but they don't get me. In truth, many make fun of how disconnected I am with my environment. Not in a malicious way but I can't say I enjoy it. There is a difference between laughing with someone and at them.

Sensing types will anger me when they try to apply rules like, if someone is messy that must mean they are not responsible or because I'm late quite often that I can't be on time if the situation demanded it.

I don't know anyone who is definitively an ISFp though so can't really compare these relationships with someone who was my so-called dual. I find it kind of strange though....if this my dual and they outnumber me, then how come I've never been attracted enough to date one?

Yet, I seem to be able to hone in on INFjs like they have a beacon on their head despite them being so few in number. INTjs I find are a bit harder to pick out in a crowd. There are many who appear INTjish but actually aren't when you get to know them better. It's the lack of awareness that appears in these INTj look-a-like's that gets to me and will turn me off.

I find INTps and INFps kind of attractive but am more interested in working with an ENTj than being in a relationship with one.

I think for me the (IN) is what's most important when I'm looking for a mate.

[Ms. Kensington]

This is true. A thorn in my side actually.

A red flag though doesn't mean I won't date someone. It just means its definately something I'll watch out for.

If I'm attracted to someone physically and mentally and they treat me right, they probably wouldn't have anything to worry about red flag or no.

I ended all my serious relationships after a lot of work. Its when it gets to the point where the work is going to cause so much resentment and pain between the two people, that trust is affected that I tend to throw in the towel.

Top reasons I've broken up with a guy are: Selfishness, lack of respect for me, lack of attention to me, and taking me for granted.

what did you count as selfish? etc

[Expat]

The majority of people I come across do not know how to opperate in relationships, regardless of type or 'experience'



That's all I'll say

I fully agree with you but, unfortunately, Polly's "Red Flag" has become part of the conventional wisdom:

'Teaching' someone to be in a relationship is a huge amount of work. When you are single for a really long time you become very set in your ways. Its hard to adapt to another individual.

The fallacy of this argument is as follows -- after spending years in a long-term relationship with one individual, you adapt to that one individual, and become as "set in your ways" as when single, if not more so.

The fact that you reached a level of accomodation with one person means absolutely nothing about reaching the same level with another, different individual.

My parents lived together for 34 years. Yet they still had the same daily quarrels about petty matters at 60 as they had at 40. And I very much doubt that their having lived with each other for so long prepared them in any way to live with anyone else.

Still, I have heard the "red flag" comment often enough to know that most women do believe in it.

[Polly]

The fallacy of this argument is as follows -- after spending years in a long-term relationship with one individual, you adapt to that one individual, and become as "set in your ways" as when single, if not more so.

I respectively disagree.

The key there is, that you have actually adapted to one individual before. You know the level of compromise involved in a relationship and its not as unfamiliar territory to you as it would be for someone who has never been in a serious relationship. You adapt to your partner in a way you do not adapt to other people in your life.

I would say to use the excuse, "you're not my ex"....is a pretty poor one for not being able to adapt to a new partner. I would think there were other issues there. It's like riding a bike for the first time in a long time. You are a bit jittery at first and unsure of yourself but after awhile you get comfortable and start enjoying the ride. (Ok perhaps a bicycle was a poor metaphor here )

Waiting until your mid 30s to mid 40s to get into your first serious relationship is an extreme. I tend to think extremes are unhealthy when it comes to people.

[Expat]

Waiting until your mid 30s to mid 40s to get into your first serious relationship is an extreme. I tend to think extremes are unhealthy when it comes to people.

1) This is a bit of self-contained logic, since you yourself define the criteria to reach the conclusion -- "it is unhealthy because it is an extreme, and it is extreme because I say so".

2) My point is that adapting to one individual says little about your ability to adapt to another individual -- as for the bicycle, it is like saying that learning to ride a bicycle helps you to ride a horse (ok, this metaphor is also stupid). I think that the number of failed second marriages or relationships, or the number of stupid mistakes people do in that area, is an indication of that.

But we can agree to disagree

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Polly]

I'm not giving up yet

I agree one relationship is not equal to another and I don't say it couldn't possibly work...I'm saying "Red Flag".

It was a different time after WWII. A time where a man had to make his own way in the world first so he could make a good husband and tended towards women who could be a good wife and mother to his children. Not to mention, everyone seemed to be getting married around that time.

The idea of sex before marriage or pregnancy was very taboo around time of WWII.

It used to be ok to marry off your 15 year old child. Times change.

All I'm saying is that to live so far outside cultural norms, can be one indicator of social dyfunction....which can lead to a whole host and variety of problems. Then again, it might be an indication of religious beliefs.

You can get to know someone and if they do suffer from some kind of issue that prevents relationships, you can usually find out pretty quick (its why they've never had a long term relationship - you don't have to wait longterm to figure it out).

[Fry]

hi friends,

I am talking to this new chick, she is very cool, out going, she has a lot of friends including guy friends.

I haven't met her yet, but I am feeling insecure. Because she has lot of guys who are better than me, in terms of looks, jobs. It makes me wonder why she would like me.

How do i deal with this situation? has anyone been through this kind of situation? Why would someone extrovert like to date someone introvert and quiet? I mean, to their eyes, i maybe boring, no?


i am intj by the way,

[cracka]

I haven't met her yet, but I am feeling insecure.

Dude. Unless the two factors in this sentence do a complete 180 then this relationship, whatever exists... is doomed from the start.

Because she has lot of guys who are better than me, in terms of looks, jobs. It makes me wonder why she would like me.

Go into it thinking that she's talking to you for one reason, she likes YOU...JUST HOW YOU ARE. If she wanted one of the other guys you mentioned she wouldn't be talking with you. Think about it that way and lose that insecurity or you're screwed. :wink:

[Blaze]

hi friends,

I am talking to this new chick, she is very cool, out going, she has a lot of friends including guy friends.

I haven't met her yet, but I am feeling insecure. Because she has lot of guys who are better than me, in terms of looks, jobs. It makes me wonder why she would like me.

How do i deal with this situation? has anyone been through this kind of situation? Why would someone extrovert like to date someone introvert and quiet? I mean, to their eyes, i maybe boring, no?


i am intj by the way,

be confident. confidence is sexy. and you can't compare yourself to other guys - i'm sure you've got a lot of strengths which you can focus on and play up. keep your mind focused there.

extraverts love introverts, by and large. it's like we're intrigued by ya'll, ya draw us in, we want to find out more.

[UDP]

You are going to have to learn how to deal with women and relationships sooner or later, just start learning now.

[oyburger]

I agree with cracka, by going into a relationship with that kind of attitude you're damning yourself right from the begining. If she didn't find something about you that she prefered over the others then there would be no relationship to begin with, not even friendship. If you tell her you're no good to be around, she'll start to believe that too. Just let go and have fun with it. If you get hurt, you get hurt; it happens to absolutly everyone no matter how they look or how great of a job they have.