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Thread: Discussion of LSI-ISTj Subtypes

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Bureaucracy is annoying and a pain in the ass to deal with tbh.
    I really hate having to deal with rules and regulations, especially when they get in the way.
    LSI descriptions always sound like some anal autist.
    I’ve encountered more LSI-Ti types than the Se subtype and most have been through work. The descriptions sound unflattering but I don’t think it should be seen as unflattering. Bureaucracy was created to level the playing field. So if you qualify, your eligibility is based upon fulfilling the criteria (rules) and not because you’re fucking your way through (Fi). LSI wants to ensure the system’s integrity remains intact so that the system operates as it should. Whether the players adhere to the rules or not, that’s not LSI’s concern. LSI is essentially the referee and calls out violations as they see it. What happens to the person who violates the rules isn’t of interest. LSI isn’t an enforcer of consequence, they enforce the structure itself. SLE is actually the corrections officer and likes enforcing consequences.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Northstar View Post
    Well, in MBTI tests I did consistently get ISTP, never ISTJ. They seem way too surface-level. The -Se subtype might be one reason I initially got typed SLI by some people (including you) here.
    Anyone can be anything on MBTI because the test questions are based on dichotomy personal preferences and framed from Barnum Forer effect. It’s the same method as fortunetelling. Do you like alone time? Yes. You're an introvert! The way MBTI defines introvert and extrovert is socially based, which is wrong. That and their description of functions don’t match Jung’s. MBTI Ti is not Jung’s Ti. It’s often a mixture of Te, Fi, diluted Ti. That’s just one example. Se is super fucked up in MBTI- a lot of it is actually Ne and Si. List goes on. It definitely doesn’t help matters much that people are vastly mistyped and perpetuate misinformation and elevate anecdotal shit as their justification for typings, and this goes for MBTI and Socionics.

    It’s common for ISTP of MBTI to remain ISTp in socionics but the functions are different. A lot of MBTI ISTP really hate Fe, and not surprising ISTp are Fe PoLR. They do have 4D Ti but it’s demo. They’re grumpy and bank on their grumpiness like it’s a badge of honor because they believe the stereotype that ISTP/Ti Se means being grumpy and reject outward emotional expression. I’ll bet people typed you SLI because it’s the lazy way, MBTI = Socionics type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Geralt of Rivia LSI-Se



    Lmao, this is definitely something an LSI and EIE would end up doing in my experience. EIE are... hmm highly interesting, but difficult ppl for sure.

    wait, so you think tv Geralt is LSI? Instinctively I kind of thought of him as SLI-Te because he seems to have Te that is motivated by his relations with everyone around him, such as how he feels about monsters and humans and how they treat one another or his disdain for royalty; otherwise he is pretty indifferent. I think an LSI, by their nature, would see value in the authority, even if they don't think much of the person who has it and would get involved with people for more logical reasons and less personal feeling about them. More like Spock perhaps.

    Yennefer also seems to have Fe demonstrative, like she uses it to play a role for whatever her aim or goal is, like Fe is not really an aim in itself like an Fe lead. I wish there was more discussion in the witcher thread now. - https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...cher-(Netflix)
    I'm open to other interpretations, especially from self-typed EIEs, SEEs, and SLIs, and LSIs that might have seen the show.
    ~Fish heads, fish heads, rolli polli fish heads~
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    Quote Originally Posted by SnatchYourWeave View Post
    I’ve encountered more LSI-Ti types than the Se subtype and most have been through work. The descriptions sound unflattering but I don’t think it should be seen as unflattering. Bureaucracy was created to level the playing field. So if you qualify, your eligibility is based upon fulfilling the criteria (rules) and not because you’re fucking your way through (Fi). LSI wants to ensure the system’s integrity remains intact so that the system operates as it should. Whether the players adhere to the rules or not, that’s not LSI’s concern. LSI is essentially the referee and calls out violations as they see it. What happens to the person who violates the rules isn’t of interest. LSI isn’t an enforcer of consequence, they enforce the structure itself. SLE is actually the corrections officer and likes enforcing consequences.
    In that sense, yeah, I don't make exceptions for people. Its more of a "This is how things work here. No exceptions will be made." Snowflakes be damned.I prefer however if rules are simple, logical and make things flow efficiently, rather than convoluted arbitrary rules without sense which exist to get in the way.If some rule is stupid I'm gonna have to know why the fuck it exists and if I don't consider the reason to make sense.. I'll ignore the rule for sure. I argue with my boss sometimes to the point where he gets angry and says "Just do as I say!".. when I think he is being stupid.

    I admit tho I'm not a very good soldier when it comes to being forced to do something I disagree with and react with violence to coercion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    wait, so you think tv Geralt is LSI? Instinctively I kind of thought of him as SLI-Te because he seems to have Te that is motivated by his relations with everyone around him, such as how he feels about monsters and humans and how they treat one another or his disdain for royalty; otherwise he is pretty indifferent. I think an LSI, by their nature, would see value in the authority, even if they don't think much of the person who has it and would get involved with people for more logical reasons and less personal feeling about them. More like Spock perhaps.

    Yennefer also seems to have Fe demonstrative, like she uses it to play a role for whatever her aim or goal is, like Fe is not really an aim in itself like an Fe lead. I wish there was more discussion in the witcher thread now. - https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...cher-(Netflix)
    I'm open to other interpretations, especially from self-typed EIEs, SEEs, and SLIs, and LSIs that might have seen the show.
    Because I relate to how Geralt thinks in both the books and the series. He actually thinks about morality and most other things in a logical way, such as his reasoning against the lesser evil. He is a cynical sob like me as well, often philosophizing. He has his own code or rules by which he does things (Ti) based on his own understanding (something I relate to). I'm no Spock, he is LII. further, Spock's lvl of emotional detachment would be alien to me considering I'm triple reactive in the enneagram. I can go with rage from 0 to 60 in less than 2.3 seconds.



    “Evil is evil, Stregobor,” said the witcher seriously as he got up. “Lesser, greater, middling, it's all the same. Proportions are negotiated, boundaries blurred. I’m not a pious hermit. I haven't done only good in my life. But if I’m to choose between one evil and another, then I prefer not to choose at all.”

    “How do you find cohabiting with neighbors from whom, after all, you do differ somewhat?"
    "I manage." The witcher looked him straight in the eyes, "I manage because I have to. Because I've no other way out. Because I've overcome the vanity and pride of being different. I've understood that they are a pitiful defense against being different. Because I've understood that the sun shines differently when something changes, but I'm not the axis of those changes. The sun shines differently, but it will continue to shine, and jumping at it with a hoe isn't going to do anything. We've got to accept facts, elf. That's what we've got to learn.”

    “Were I to attempt to be good to everyone, to the entire world and to all the creatures living in it, it would be a drop of fresh water in the salt sea. In other words, a wasted effort. Thus, I decided to do specific good; good which would not go to waste. I’m good to myself and my immediate circle.”

    “Why didn't you become a sorcerer, Geralt? Weren't you ever attracted by the Art? Be honest.'
    'I will. I was.'
    'Why, then, didn't you follow the voice of that attraction?'
    'I decided it would be wiser to follow the voice of good sense.'
    'Meaning?'
    'Years of practice in the witcher's trade have taught me not to bite off more than I can chew. Do you know, Vilgefortz, I once knew a dwarf, who, as a child, dreamed of being an elf. What do you think; would he have become one had he followed the voice of attraction?”

    “I don't believe in Melitele, don't believe in the existence of other gods either, but I respect your choice, your sacrifice. Your belief. Because your faith and sacrifice, the price you're paying for your silence, will make you better, a greater being. Or, at least, it could. But my faithlessness can do nothing. It's powerless.”
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 10-13-2020 at 07:21 AM.

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    I don't think LSI bureaucracy needs to be all that genuine in order for it be very effective. I kind of do see LSIs as the governmental glue that keeps the quadra together in ways, even if they themselves would naturally hate the government. (I after all hate 'being good' but I can still play at being good very well.) All Betas (and all the other types) are essentially lying and manipulating to rule the world:

    SLE: Will get power because they can pretend to be tough
    IEI: Will get power because they can pretend to be good
    LSI: Will get power because they can pretend to be bureacratic
    EIE: Will get power because they can pretend to be visionary

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    Quote Originally Posted by SnatchYourWeave View Post
    I’ve encountered more LSI-Ti types than the Se subtype and most have been through work. The descriptions sound unflattering but I don’t think it should be seen as unflattering. Bureaucracy was created to level the playing field. So if you qualify, your eligibility is based upon fulfilling the criteria (rules) and not because you’re fucking your way through (Fi). LSI wants to ensure the system’s integrity remains intact so that the system operates as it should. Whether the players adhere to the rules or not, that’s not LSI’s concern. LSI is essentially the referee and calls out violations as they see it. What happens to the person who violates the rules isn’t of interest. LSI isn’t an enforcer of consequence, they enforce the structure itself. SLE is actually the corrections officer and likes enforcing consequences.
    lol I liked that way of putting it.

    How do you see LSI-Ti different from LSI-Se? The LSI friend you posted a pic of, is she Ti sub?

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I don't think LSI bureaucracy needs to be all that genuine in order for it be very effective. I kind of do see LSIs as the governmental glue that keeps the quadra together in ways, even if they themselves would naturally hate the government. (I after all hate 'being good' but I can still play at being good very well.) All Betas (and all the other types) are essentially lying and manipulating to rule the world:

    SLE: Will get power because they can pretend to be tough
    IEI: Will get power because they can pretend to be good
    LSI: Will get power because they can pretend to be bureacratic
    EIE: Will get power because they can pretend to be visionary
    And I leave the IEIs when they fail to continue pretending to be good

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    In that sense, yeah, I don't make exceptions for people. Its more of a "This is how things work here. No exceptions will be made." Snowflakes be damned.I prefer however if rules are simple, logical and make things flow efficiently, rather than convoluted arbitrary rules without sense which exist to get in the way.If some rule is stupid I'm gonna have to know why the fuck it exists and if I don't consider the reason to make sense.. I'll ignore the rule for sure. I argue with my boss sometimes to the point where he gets angry and says "Just do as I say!".. when I think he is being stupid.

    I admit tho I'm not a very good soldier when it comes to being forced to do something I disagree with and react with violence to coercion.
    Heh tbh if you overdo Ti it's definitely ALL those "convoluted arbitrary rules without sense which exist to get in the way".

    Te (and Se too) see it that way absolutely.

    It counteracts Te logical dynamicism and Se momentum.

    Something like that.

    This was also a higher focus on Te or Se or both: "logical and make things flow efficiently"

    I think most people do like such rules though. Not type related in that way.

    For the rest...

    I personally am not as concerned as you with wanting to know the intuitive why behind the rule. I mean if it's there and it's being enforced...then it's what it is. I don't care to look beyond the surface intuitively, and to me people who want to know why a rule exists are looking to understand the underlying intuitive stuff (Ne/Ni). It's stereotypical of LII supposedly to want to know the why behind all rules.

    It's additionally not my job to decide if my boss is stupid when it comes to a few small stupid rules lol. I decide out of my own will whether I want to work for that boss and that workplace, and the rest matters less. I'll navigate around them if I can, sure, I think most people do that Even the LSI-Ti's themselves can I think : p

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    OCD related issues (ego dystonic/syntonic) seems to be LSX issues. True autism dunno, I rather trust he discoverer of it than trendy psychiatry like in every other issue (it is not a long time when every dysfunctional female had hysteria and slaves suffered from drapetomania, rebellious minds had sluggish schizophrenia) which is very keen local processing [where every non experienced pattern throws you out of handle], abstraction of mind and so on.

    BTW according to many your ex is likely a psychopath.
    Measuring you right now

    Winning is for losers

     

    Sincerely yours,
    idiosyncratic type

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nobody View Post
    Yennefer also seems to have Fe demonstrative, like she uses it to play a role for whatever her aim or goal is, like Fe is not really an aim in itself like an Fe lead. I wish there was more discussion in the witcher thread now. - https://www.the16types.info/vbulleti...cher-(Netflix)
    Heh, I always thought Yen was a bitch tbh.. kinda annoying. Interesting as a character, but thoroughly unlikable as a person. I have only really seen Yen typed as EIE in socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    I personally am not as concerned as you with wanting to know the intuitive why behind the rule. I mean if it's there and it's being enforced...then it's what it is. I don't care to look beyond the surface intuitively, and to me people who want to know why a rule exists are looking to understand the underlying intuitive stuff (Ne/Ni). It's stereotypical of LII supposedly to want to know the why behind all rules.
    Idk what would be intuitive about that. Intuitive stuff is more like this:


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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Idk what would be intuitive about that. Intuitive stuff is more like this:
    Well it just seems as impractical philosophising as this video lol. Like, who cares why the fuck the rule exists unless you wanna see the underlying cause that's not immediately obvious? That's why this thingy is always in the LII descriptions that they question every rule that doesn't make sense to them, frustrating bosses and themselves about it without a practical purpose.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    lol I liked that way of putting it.

    How do you see LSI-Ti different from LSI-Se? The LSI friend you posted a pic of, is she Ti sub?
    I think the main issue is that people can’t tell LSI apart from SLE. It’s actually quite simple, and has to do with placement of where Se is. Being that LSI’s lead function is Ti, it’s mainly about theoretical logic. LSI uses creative Se to uphold and enforce implementation of the rules, NOT the consequences of violation of rules (ignoring Te). Whereas consequence is the aftermath Te (which LSI ignores), and SLE has Se base which is primarily concerned with enforcement of will but also demo Te. Lead and demo functions are bold, whereas creative and ignoring functions are cautious, so even when an LSI is of any subtype, they’re still Ti lead. The subtypes are not much different from each other, just what I’ve outlined previously with Se subtype being more accepting of explanations and more quick tempered. LSI- Se isn’t going to be more bold than than SLE, because their Se creative, not lead.

    As for my one LSI friend, she’s of the Se subtype. She works as an artist promoter and manages recording studios and she’s very administration gifted. She really means business in her work but she admits she’s really bad at enforcing consequences to her artists because they lack discipline (not talent) and she doesn’t know how to get their asses off the ground. She’s hired me to be her “assistant” which was just her way of making me look legit and I basically do the enforcement. I go in and get her artists to wake up on time, drive them to practice, yell at them for not being focused on their goals. She likes that people get scared of me upon just being in the same room. What I find funny is I don’t think I’m scary or tough, just that I know how to push people into doing what I want and I almost always get my way. So in terms of Se, SLE is all expansive with Se, whereas LSI is very precise with their Se because Se is used to serve Ti. Trust and believe, I love enforcing consequences to the rules. It’s more fun when people feel the gravity of the consequences.

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    A good example of LSI-Se is O-ren Ishii. After she spent her life in service of another, she hires a crazyass SLE-Se bodyguard Gogo to protect her. Certainty not incapable of Se stuff, but there is greater preference for administration for LSI due to Ti lead.

    https://youtu.be/7klfw3gRako

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    Pai-mei is LSI-Se. He’s really amusing.
    ”If you can’t understand me, then I will communicate with you like I would a dog. When I yell, when I point, when I beat you with my stick. Your anger amuses me. Do you believe you are my match?”
    >>No.
    ”Are you aware I kill at will?”
    >>Yes.
    “Is it your wish to die?”
    >>No.
    ”Hahaha! Then you must be stupid, so stupid.”

    https://youtu.be/3VtfqAym5sQ

    No wonder you can’t do it. You acquiesce to defeat before you even begin.

    https://youtu.be/b2dehpRFyLA
    Last edited by SnatchYourWeave; 10-14-2020 at 03:38 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by BandD View Post
    I don't think LSI bureaucracy needs to be all that genuine in order for it be very effective. I kind of do see LSIs as the governmental glue that keeps the quadra together in ways, even if they themselves would naturally hate the government. (I after all hate 'being good' but I can still play at being good very well.) All Betas (and all the other types) are essentially lying and manipulating to rule the world:

    SLE: Will get power because they can pretend to be tough
    IEI: Will get power because they can pretend to be good
    LSI: Will get power because they can pretend to be bureacratic
    EIE: Will get power because they can pretend to be visionary
    That’s nonsense. No type “pretends” to use their ego because the lead function is what drives the person, hence being called the base. Why pretend something when you already know how to use it? It’s the suggestive function which is the pretender to the throne. People “pretend” to use their suggestive function because it’s the weakest but valued and due to its’ weakness, the person doesn’t know how to use it. It’s shooting in the dark so you have to fake it.

    SLE pretends to be introspective (Ni), LSI pretends to be merrymaking (Fe), EIE pretends to be analytical (Ti), IEI pretends to be tough (Se).

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Well it just seems as impractical philosophising as this video lol. Like, who cares why the fuck the rule exists unless you wanna see the underlying cause that's not immediately obvious? That's why this thingy is always in the LII descriptions that they question every rule that doesn't make sense to them, frustrating bosses and themselves about it without a practical purpose.
    Idk I philosophize a lot, for example pondering the nature of consciousness and related ideas is interesting up to a certain point. I agree however, considering I have debated Kantian transcendental idealism with LII (INTP) before and he is way out of my league when it comes to being at home with such abstractions. I eventually get tired of it and question how I can apply the ideas irl to my life, if I can't its annoying.
    I told this to Gulenko, but apparently it isn't intuitive enough, its just Ni-HA. considering he is LII himself.. well, he probably knows.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 10-14-2020 at 06:27 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SnatchYourWeave View Post
    I think the main issue is that people can’t tell LSI apart from SLE. It’s actually quite simple, and has to do with placement of where Se is. Being that LSI’s lead function is Ti, it’s mainly about theoretical logic. LSI uses creative Se to uphold and enforce implementation of the rules, NOT the consequences of violation of rules (ignoring Te). Whereas consequence is the aftermath Te (which LSI ignores), and SLE has Se base which is primarily concerned with enforcement of will but also demo Te. Lead and demo functions are bold, whereas creative and ignoring functions are cautious, so even when an LSI is of any subtype, they’re still Ti lead. The subtypes are not much different from each other, just what I’ve outlined previously with Se subtype being more accepting of explanations and more quick tempered. LSI- Se isn’t going to be more bold than than SLE, because their Se creative, not lead.

    As for my one LSI friend, she’s of the Se subtype. She works as an artist promoter and manages recording studios and she’s very administration gifted. She really means business in her work but she admits she’s really bad at enforcing consequences to her artists because they lack discipline (not talent) and she doesn’t know how to get their asses off the ground. She’s hired me to be her “assistant” which was just her way of making me look legit and I basically do the enforcement. I go in and get her artists to wake up on time, drive them to practice, yell at them for not being focused on their goals. She likes that people get scared of me upon just being in the same room. What I find funny is I don’t think I’m scary or tough, just that I know how to push people into doing what I want and I almost always get my way. So in terms of Se, SLE is all expansive with Se, whereas LSI is very precise with their Se because Se is used to serve Ti. Trust and believe, I love enforcing consequences to the rules. It’s more fun when people feel the gravity of the consequences.
    Ah lol, interesting. I thought it's really easy to tell LSI-Ti apart from any kind of SLE though...at least the guys, like they really are pretty introverted, unemotional and Ij-rigid. But the LSI-Ti girls I've known, also none of them look like SLE at all, too rigid again for that. With your friend I wasn't sure of subtype, she does pay attention to looks, but sometimes Ti subs do that pretty fine too, and she did overall seem like Ti sub to me with how she holds herself and her facial expression being kinda restricted like that. And if she's Ti sub she would again fit the subtype descriptions in that she is not well able to discipline / enforce the rules for others. LSI-Se is described as being able and willing to do so. In your first video (of that LSI-Se woman) too lol... As per your description your friend comes off very precise and into administration like Ti subtype for sure. LSI-Ti seems like the bureaucrat/administrative stuff, and LSI-Se seems like the hands-on manager (not in the same way you do it tho ofc). So can I ask what makes you type her Se subtype?

    Anyway all that typing aside, it was actually interesting what you said about consequences. I wouldn't mind the role that you took up for her, would be able to do it just fine and would be way more willing to do it than the purely administrative tasks. Administrative tasks, organisation, .... I can do it but if that's the only thing to do then it's soul killing eventually lol. ... I do agree that without tangible & enforced consequences the rules mean nothing lol & that it's fun to enforce them


    SLE pretends to be introspective (Ni), LSI pretends to be merrymaking (Fe), EIE pretends to be analytical (Ti), IEI pretends to be tough (Se).
    Not bad lol god I pretend so much lately

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Idk I philosophize a lot, for example pondering the nature of consciousness and related ideas is interesting up to a certain point. I agree however, considering I have debated Kantian transcendental idealism with LII (INTP) before and he is way out of my league when it comes to being at home with such abstractions. I eventually get tired of it and question how I can apply the ideas irl to my life, if I can't its annoying.
    I told this to Gulenko, but apparently it isn't intuitive enough, its just Ni-HA. considering he is LII himself.. well, he probably knows.
    Agree the way you do this/your preferences you described here do not sound like an intuitive type. I was only pointing out that in that situation as above you may be using a focus on intuitive stuff for some reason. Doesn't make one an intuitive type

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Agree the way you do this/your preferences you described here do not sound like an intuitive type. I was only pointing out that in that situation as above you may be using a focus on intuitive stuff for some reason. Doesn't make one an intuitive type
    Ti+Ni-HA tho makes LSI kind of think they are intuitive in a sense, it was only made clear to me after meeting several real intuitive ppl, that I'm not.
    Imo this is especially true if one spends too much time in Ti-Ni loops: https://personalitygrowth.com/istp-t...to-break-free/

    weird
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 10-14-2020 at 04:41 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Ti+Ni-HA tho makes LSI kind of think they are intuitive in a sense, it was only made clear to me after meeting several real intuitive ppl, that I'm not.
    Imo this is especially true if one spends too much time in Ti-Ni loops: https://personalitygrowth.com/istp-t...to-break-free/

    weird
    A real intuitive knows how to draw meaning and interpretation out of seeming nothingness (lol... kinda bullshitting). But the ISTP's practical applied philosophical approach to life is a breathe of fresh of air to someone who can get too esoteric. Some rad philosophically-minded ISTPs were James Dean and Bruce Lee.

    (starting at around 2:00, he gets into Ti-ish explanations about how he applies his acting method )



    James Dean was VERY Ti-Ni. He was very famous for the movie Rebel Without A Cause (his character seems 6w5ish).
    Last edited by SojournInLimbo; 10-14-2020 at 05:34 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stance View Post
    A real intuitive knows how to draw meaning and interpretation out of seeming nothingness (lol... kinda bullshitting). But the ISTP's practical applied philosophical approach to life is a breathe of fresh of air to someone who can get too esoteric. Some rad philosophically-minded ISTPs were James Dean and Bruce Lee.

    (starting at around 2:00, he gets into Ti-ish explanations about how he applies his acting method )
    Nice, he seems like LSI-Se yeah. Kinda...more emotional&expressive and aware than LSI-Ti yeah but still quite controlled and contained. He does sound very logical in the things he says

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Ti+Ni-HA tho makes LSI kind of think they are intuitive in a sense, it was only made clear to me after meeting several real intuitive ppl, that I'm not.
    Imo this is especially true if one spends too much time in Ti-Ni loops: https://personalitygrowth.com/istp-t...to-break-free/

    weird
    lol interesting. I also thought for a short time that I was maybe an intuitive type lol but then figured out nah. (I thought ENTP and ILE but really not for long)

    I quoted the above article in a spoiler below bc I was interested in seeing how I relate to it, bc on some level I did relate but something was very off too about it, if you want to add anything feel free to ofc, I'm curious how you relate or don't relate uless you meant it applies literally from first word to last word, lol

    I also analysed it out for myself bc I typed LSI-Se for a while even if now I think I'm not that kind of person really (Still, I used to so this is how this is on topic for the thread lol)

    The ISTP Ti-Ni loop causes them to focus only on their introverted functions, neglecting their extraverted ones entirely.

    I'm capable of this but I feel terrible if I'm like that, I really don't like to "turn off" "Se"...I'm better off engaging in some way with the world and even my thinking works better if discussing with others or if someone's at least - actively - listening to me

    The ISTP normally uses their auxiliary extraverted sensing function in order to take action and actually focus on the world around them. When they are stuck in this loop they neglect this function entirely, and this is what causes their behavior to be so different from the norm.

    Yes in the most unhealthy ever period on my life I did this and it plain killed me. Do you tolerate this better?

    It also felt like disintegrating from E8 to E5 if that makes sense, in enneagram. If that's my type anyhow, I'm not that deep into enneagram

    They become hyper focused on future ideas, and can struggle to really see things in a clear and logical manner. Their minds start to analyze every detail about something, and this can create this loop which keeps the ISTP locked inside of their own minds.

    Hell no, I can't uh, become "hyper focused on future ideas", what's that even. In the horrible period I just had a vague sense of doom and stuff, not actual conscious ideas on the future. OK sometimes I got ideas for 1-1 second and they were vivid but actually irrational while I believed them until I realised it's all bullshit lol. I know that's how Ni inferior is supposed to be though. Reading about Ni inferior made so much sense to explain this period of mine in retrospect.

    I know you type LSI-Se, I'm going to generalise to xSI-Se now, I did ask my ESI-Se friend once if he is able to stay in his mind considering future plans and ideas for long. He said yes he can for a while. I was like WOW I absolutely can't do that normally. I stay with it for one second lol. That's fine tho' because I'm like I immediately know what I want concretely and meanwhile I love that feeling of envisioning it strongly for a second, it really boots me up for the goal and gives me motivation. And I don't need to stay with it to plan details out like he does. I'll just adapt in the moment.

    In that period I did have problems with seeing the logic for tasks right away. And I did analyse every detail about my internals. But not my future. My past maybe yes though. I normally hate to remember the past, it drains me immediately (well, after that customary one single second of recalling the past memory). So you can imagine how crappy that period felt lol

    Also during this bad period I did develop a way to look and kinda even see the future KINDA. I can still kinda hypnotise myself into it sometimes. But if I go there it's still draining pretty soon. And I have to use constant emotional drama (Fe HA?) to be able to do anything in the imagination there. That's how I somehow get to access some "future ideas" then eventually.

    While they are introverts who enjoy time inside of their thoughts, ISTPs are also about action and living in the present.

    I mean no I don't enjoy time inside of my thoughts. If I really gotta kill time then I can enjoy thinking about my concrete goals though. Just to kill the time only. It's barely about planning it out still, I just enjoy the feeling that I want the goals and will be able to get to them

    For the ISTP extraverted sensing is an important part of how they process and respond to the world around them. This helps the ISTP to not remain stuck in their own thoughts and analysis, but instead helps them to take action and move forward. The ISTP enjoys living in the present moment, rather than obsessing over future or past situations. They can view their surroundings and actually enjoy taking action and experiencing a bit of thrill in life. They dislike stagnancy and want to feel free to continue moving forward, and even like to take the occasional risk in life. While most of the time these are calculated risks for the ISTP, since they do analyze the situation and come to logical conclusions, there is still some perceived risk involved and they thrive off of that. ISTP dislike feeling stuck or trapped inside of their own little world for too long, and want to actually experience things as well. They use their introverted thinking and combine this with their extraverted sensing, and this helps them to actually make use of their analysis. They can see the most logical path to take using the information they gather and analyze, and then proceed to moving towards this goal. This helps them to remove the sense of doubt they might otherwise feel and instead trust in themselves and their ability to get things done and problem solve.

    I don't have the sense of doubt this mentions. I do do see the most logical path and course to the goal and I do use analysis of information I gathered for this purpose. But I will not think of the future itself beyond the 1 sec of envisioning. It's just logical analysis for orienting and for logistics and whatever else that may be needed logically.

    The risk stuff sorta fits for me. That was pretty close really. Except I think maybe I do take (not crazy big) risks more often than I notice, others point it out to me instead or I realise like months or years later that "hey damn, that thing I did there was actually pretty risky."

    No danger really about getting stuck in thoughts and analysis, I get too mad and impatient fast if I can't take action

    I mean unless it comes to people and their attitudes sometimes lol which is what the whole bad period was about anyway besides kinda figuring out my life and future on a higher level than before, again based on emotions rather than practicalities though.

    When the ISTP becomes stuck in their Ti-Ni loop, they lose sight of themselves and don’t have that same trust that they can get things done. They take in information and analyze it, but combining this with their Ni can cause them to doubt the information.

    That is plain foreign to me. I hate all doubts and worries lol, and passive aggression too, I really repress/reject all those for myself

    In the bad "Ti-Ni" period what I had instead was I plain was overloaded and emotional about the tasks, not doubting the information, just being overemotional and then that was why I was fighting to find the trust again that I can get the thing done. Usually lasting for a few seconds before removing the intense emotions/negative feelings but on worse days the emotions could last for hours until I got IEI-like insights from them I think

    Is that relatable for you at all in a "Ti-Ni period"? The emotional part?

    They continue to cycle all of this information and their conclusions through their introverted intuition, which can create stagnancy for the ISTP. They keep seeing how things will likely go wrong in the future, and become hung up on this path. They continue to foresee the negative outcomes, and so they go back towards analyzing the information in hopes of solving the problems.

    No...practical life issues are just not like this for me. With people oh I just ignore doubts again (when I'm my normal self). I don't really have an ability to sit and think up negative outcomes beyond what's immediately logical. Maybe I get a flash of one sometimes, rarely. And then I usually choose to ignore it lol bc it just feels unreal and like a stupid worry

    Becoming so obsessed with the details and struggling to get out of their own heads can be rather frustrating for the ISTP who normally enjoys taking action. The ISTP spends all of their time thinking and analyzing and none of their time is spent actually doing anything about it. They can come up with ideas and ways to solve problems, but seem incapable of actually moving forward with them. Instead they become obsessive over the future, and sometimes take in past situations as well. Their minds are constantly running through things and want to analyze even the smallest of details which would not ordinarily be important to them. They get hunches or ideas about how things are going to turn out, but this can often be entirely accurate and start to lean towards paranoia for the ISTP. Their fear of how things will turn out sends them back into a tailspin of obsessive thoughts. The stagnancy keeps them trapped in those thoughts, rather than feeling free to take action and experience things in the way they normally want to.

    I mean yeah this is the E8 to E5ish thing. BUT not about practical life. Only about relationships, people's attitudes towards me. That was the whole bad period for me

    But I wasn't as stagnant as this describes. I mean for a while yes but then it was always like I just naturally reconnected with the "Se" action focus and decided quickly on concrete action and went and did it. But I was trying to also learn how with relationships I can't always just do that, I was trying to learn how to introspect about them. I consumed a lot of IEI materials during this too I think lol

    For the ISTP the only way to really escape this loop is to focus on their extraverted functions, mostly their auxiliary extraverted sensing. While taking action can be difficult when the ISTP is stuck in this loop, it is really the only way to break themselves free.

    Doesn't fit for me. I read somewhere that your Mobilising function can mobilise you. And maybe yeah... for me engaging with the emotional dynamics (Fe) was always what mobilised me again. That's always how it worked out above with the natural reconnecting with actions and the tangible world (Se) as the end result.

    They need to consciously seek out ways to take action on their ideas, even if they might fail to accomplish the end goal in the ways they hoped to. Starting small can be useful for the ISTP, just seeking out the physical world around them. Focusing on their senses and the things which excite them, whether this be going outside or trying out a new restaurant. Focusing on those senses and allowing themselves to live in the present, is really the best way for the ISTP to escape this endless loop. When they find themselves trapped in this cycle it is important to take those first steps towards action, rather than allowing stagnancy to control their behaviors and thoughts.

    I mean... to me this part feels like the ISTP is some intuitive type.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Ah lol, interesting. I thought it's really easy to tell LSI-Ti apart from any kind of SLE though...at least the guys, like they really are pretty introverted, unemotional and Ij-rigid. But the LSI-Ti girls I've known, also none of them look like SLE at all, too rigid again for that. With your friend I wasn't sure of subtype, she does pay attention to looks, but sometimes Ti subs do that pretty fine too, and she did overall seem like Ti sub to me with how she holds herself and her facial expression being kinda restricted like that. And if she's Ti sub she would again fit the subtype descriptions in that she is not well able to discipline / enforce the rules for others. LSI-Se is described as being able and willing to do so. In your first video (of that LSI-Se woman) too lol... As per your description your friend comes off very precise and into administration like Ti subtype for sure. LSI-Ti seems like the bureaucrat/administrative stuff, and LSI-Se seems like the hands-on manager (not in the same way you do it tho ofc). So can I ask what makes you type her Se subtype?

    Anyway all that typing aside, it was actually interesting what you said about consequences. I wouldn't mind the role that you took up for her, would be able to do it just fine and would be way more willing to do it than the purely administrative tasks. Administrative tasks, organisation, .... I can do it but if that's the only thing to do then it's soul killing eventually lol. ... I do agree that without tangible & enforced consequences the rules mean nothing lol & that it's fun to enforce them




    Not bad lol god I pretend so much lately
    With her specifically? I know her and observed her, and we worked together. There’s 2 basic ways to know someone very quickly and well- work with them and/or live with them. I’ve done both. She’s not a character or archetype which can be easily spotted. Besides, LSI-Se are the more common LSI type. She’s excellent at enforcing on an administrative level where she aggressively fights to have her artists get the most benefits. LSI-Se are very aggressive when it comes to bargaining. They handle leadership better but they don’t like being tested on their authority. They operate on very absolute terms. Point is, the explicit written rules are easy to enforce when one side don’t pull their weight. The hard part is how do you get someone to cooperate if they’re slacking? When it comes to dealing and managing people especially those who are unpredictable, she gets enormously frustrated (LSIs in general do). She’s not going to cut them off and she doesn’t want to threaten them even though inside she does. She hired me not because it was planned, but because she’s already observed how I am in the public sphere and knows how I am with people that gave her the idea I could enforce the rules and make sure the consequences stick when it comes to this line of work. She does know on the professional level that I am very qualified, because I worked as a production assistant (for a large network). Much of it goes to the fact that I easily impose my will on others without any thought behind it and don’t give a shit who says no. She doesn’t operate that way and doesn’t bypass rules and she won’t coerce. But to me, if you want this result, you’ll do as I say. And I don’t give orders and not participate. I’m present, coordinate activities that would be conducive to the goals and I would also be there doing what they’re doing- I went to the gym consistently and worked out with them, kept on top of their diets and even ate the same as them when in company, sat there during recording sessions and gave them suggestions and how to implement it, etc. I categorized and enforced regiments. I made sure they had some order in their life to make it conducive to carrying out their contracts. LSIs in general are very bad when it comes to getting others to cooperate. They let people run amuck and when ppl get totally outta control; they purge them. To them, due to Ti being lead, “The rules should be adhered to and your actions should fall in line with those rules. I shouldn’t have to tell you what to do, you should know it already.” SLE works the other around- “I will do this and then legitimize my actions.”

    Now that I think about it further, I understand why LSI likes to partner up with SLE. It’s like Stalin (LSI) and Zhukov (SLE), Diocletian (LSI) and Maximian (SLE). The brains behind the power needs the enforcer with brains to exact the consequences of the power.

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    @grumpyvic81

    The ISTP Ti-Ni loop causes them to focus only on their introverted functions, neglecting their extraverted ones entirely.

    I'm capable of this but I feel terrible if I'm like that, I really don't like to "turn off" "Se"...I'm better off engaging in some way with the world and even my thinking works better if discussing with others or if someone's at least - actively - listening to me

    The ISTP normally uses their auxiliary extraverted sensing function in order to take action and actually focus on the world around them. When they are stuck in this loop they neglect this function entirely, and this is what causes their behavior to be so different from the norm.

    Yes in the most unhealthy ever period on my life I did this and it plain killed me. Do you tolerate this better?
    No, I don't. For me its like I turn into a depressed and withdrawn ILI.. if it gets bad I might go into IEI territory. Nihilistic depression... completely unsatisfying.

    It also felt like disintegrating from E8 to E5 if that makes sense, in enneagram. If that's my type anyhow, I'm not that deep into enneagram
    I'm a 6, so can't relate. I always live in my head, thinking.

    They become hyper focused on future ideas, and can struggle to really see things in a clear and logical manner. Their minds start to analyze every detail about something, and this can create this loop which keeps the ISTP locked inside of their own minds.

    Hell no, I can't uh, become "hyper focused on future ideas", what's that even. In the horrible period I just had a vague sense of doom and stuff, not actual conscious ideas on the future. OK sometimes I got ideas for 1-1 second and they were vivid but actually irrational while I believed them until I realised it's all bullshit lol. I know that's how Ni inferior is supposed to be though. Reading about Ni inferior made so much sense to explain this period of mine in retrospect.
    Yeah, idk, I don't fret about the future either. Its more like just depressive nihilism and overthinking for me.. stuck in my head, removed from the world.

    I know you type LSI-Se, I'm going to generalise to xSI-Se now, I did ask my ESI-Se friend once if he is able to stay in his mind considering future plans and ideas for long. He said yes he can for a while. I was like WOW I absolutely can't do that normally. I stay with it for one second lol. That's fine tho' because I'm like I immediately know what I want concretely and meanwhile I love that feeling of envisioning it strongly for a second, it really boots me up for the goal and gives me motivation. And I don't need to stay with it to plan details out like he does. I'll just adapt in the moment.
    Imo its pointless to think about wtf will happen in the future or plan for it, because no plan survives contact with reality, so I just set a rough goal and improvise the rest based on the situation I encounter. I'm a 6 so its very easy to imagine worst case situations and mentally prepare for them, but I don't plan otherwise.

    In that period I did have problems with seeing the logic for tasks right away. And I did analyse every detail about my internals. But not my future. My past maybe yes though. I normally hate to remember the past, it drains me immediately (well, after that customary one single second of recalling the past memory). So you can imagine how crappy that period felt lol

    Also during this bad period I did develop a way to look and kinda even see the future KINDA. I can still kinda hypnotise myself into it sometimes. But if I go there it's still draining pretty soon. And I have to use constant emotional drama (Fe HA?) to be able to do anything in the imagination there. That's how I somehow get to access some "future ideas" then eventually.
    I have no idea wtf I did the day be4 yesterday much less in the past. For me the past is nebulous and uninteresting. I focus on goals and and what I want to do or accomplish / getting there. I don't necessarily want to see the future, for me its more like I crave meaning, to be part of something bigger than myself, bigger than mere survival. To fight nihilism and achieve something of value.

    While they are introverts who enjoy time inside of their thoughts, ISTPs are also about action and living in the present.

    I mean no I don't enjoy time inside of my thoughts. If I really gotta kill time then I can enjoy thinking about my concrete goals though. Just to kill the time only. It's barely about planning it out still, I just enjoy the feeling that I want the goals and will be able to get to them
    I'm a 6 so I'm always thinking, connecting the dots, figuring stuff out. It cannot be stopped, its not voluntary. I analyze absolutely everything and everyone, categorizing, problem seeking and solving and so on. I'm like this by default, always was.

    For the ISTP extraverted sensing is an important part of how they process and respond to the world around them. This helps the ISTP to not remain stuck in their own thoughts and analysis, but instead helps them to take action and move forward. The ISTP enjoys living in the present moment, rather than obsessing over future or past situations. They can view their surroundings and actually enjoy taking action and experiencing a bit of thrill in life. They dislike stagnancy and want to feel free to continue moving forward, and even like to take the occasional risk in life. While most of the time these are calculated risks for the ISTP, since they do analyze the situation and come to logical conclusions, there is still some perceived risk involved and they thrive off of that. ISTP dislike feeling stuck or trapped inside of their own little world for too long, and want to actually experience things as well. They use their introverted thinking and combine this with their extraverted sensing, and this helps them to actually make use of their analysis. They can see the most logical path to take using the information they gather and analyze, and then proceed to moving towards this goal. This helps them to remove the sense of doubt they might otherwise feel and instead trust in themselves and their ability to get things done and problem solve.

    I don't have the sense of doubt this mentions. I do do see the most logical path and course to the goal and I do use analysis of information I gathered for this purpose. But I will not think of the future itself beyond the 1 sec of envisioning. It's just logical analysis for orienting and for logistics and whatever else that may be needed logically.
    I doubt others and sometimes my won thoughts as well, always thinking and trying to narrow down options to the most worth while and workable given the situation I'm facing, trying to see what makes the most sense. I feel best when I can take charge and do what I think is best, to go and get shit done, to actually be moving or pushing my way towards a goal or solution. Stagnation is death and Ni-Ti loop is stagnation.

    The risk stuff sorta fits for me. That was pretty close really. Except I think maybe I do take (not crazy big) risks more often than I notice, others point it out to me instead or I realise like months or years later that "hey damn, that thing I did there was actually pretty risky."
    I'm very cautious, risk averse and think things through be4 doing anything. I rarely if ever make uninformed decisions.

    No danger really about getting stuck in thoughts and analysis, I get too mad and impatient fast if I can't take action

    I mean unless it comes to people and their attitudes sometimes lol which is what the whole bad period was about anyway besides kinda figuring out my life and future on a higher level than before, again based on emotions rather than practicalities though.
    Analysis-paralysis happens form me frequently tbh.

    When the ISTP becomes stuck in their Ti-Ni loop, they lose sight of themselves and don’t have that same trust that they can get things done. They take in information and analyze it, but combining this with their Ni can cause them to doubt the information.

    That is plain foreign to me. I hate all doubts and worries lol, and passive aggression too, I really repress/reject all those for myself
    Yeah, I doubt a lot, I'm a 6 after all. This is common.

    In the bad "Ti-Ni" period what I had instead was I plain was overloaded and emotional about the tasks, not doubting the information, just being overemotional and then that was why I was fighting to find the trust again that I can get the thing done. Usually lasting for a few seconds before removing the intense emotions/negative feelings but on worse days the emotions could last for hours until I got IEI-like insights from them I think

    Is that relatable for you at all in a "Ti-Ni period"? The emotional part?
    Idk, I mainly feel nothing (grey dullness) unless I'm engaging with other people and those ppl trigger some emotion in me. On my own I'm rather bland in terms of internal emotional landscape. IEI sates are usually triggered by negative experience with ppl during Ni-Ti loop and I mainly feel annoyance to outright rage. I rarely feel happy tbh. Positive emotions are often quite the rarity, but they do happen outside of Ni-Ti states. Usually I'm confused as to what I feel and on very rare occasions I get blindsided by a torrent of feelings under a lot of stress and I have 0 idea from where or why the feelings are happening.

    They continue to cycle all of this information and their conclusions through their introverted intuition, which can create stagnancy for the ISTP. They keep seeing how things will likely go wrong in the future, and become hung up on this path. They continue to foresee the negative outcomes, and so they go back towards analyzing the information in hopes of solving the problems.

    No...practical life issues are just not like this for me. With people oh I just ignore doubts again (when I'm my normal self). I don't really have an ability to sit and think up negative outcomes beyond what's immediately logical. Maybe I get a flash of one sometimes, rarely. And then I usually choose to ignore it lol bc it just feels unreal and like a stupid worry
    Yeah, this is the source of my procrastination. This happens 100%.

    Becoming so obsessed with the details and struggling to get out of their own heads can be rather frustrating for the ISTP who normally enjoys taking action. The ISTP spends all of their time thinking and analyzing and none of their time is spent actually doing anything about it. They can come up with ideas and ways to solve problems, but seem incapable of actually moving forward with them. Instead they become obsessive over the future, and sometimes take in past situations as well. Their minds are constantly running through things and want to analyze even the smallest of details which would not ordinarily be important to them. They get hunches or ideas about how things are going to turn out, but this can often be entirely accurate and start to lean towards paranoia for the ISTP. Their fear of how things will turn out sends them back into a tailspin of obsessive thoughts. The stagnancy keeps them trapped in those thoughts, rather than feeling free to take action and experience things in the way they normally want to.

    I mean yeah this is the E8 to E5ish thing. BUT not about practical life. Only about relationships, people's attitudes towards me. That was the whole bad period for me

    But I wasn't as stagnant as this describes. I mean for a while yes but then it was always like I just naturally reconnected with the "Se" action focus and decided quickly on concrete action and went and did it. But I was trying to also learn how with relationships I can't always just do that, I was trying to learn how to introspect about them. I consumed a lot of IEI materials during this too I think lol
    This is a stereotypical unhealthy type 6 thing and it happens to me exactly as described here. Stagnation through overthinking = no action, just procrastination & paranoia.

    For the ISTP the only way to really escape this loop is to focus on their extraverted functions, mostly their auxiliary extraverted sensing. While taking action can be difficult when the ISTP is stuck in this loop, it is really the only way to break themselves free.

    Doesn't fit for me. I read somewhere that your Mobilising function can mobilise you. And maybe yeah... for me engaging with the emotional dynamics (Fe) was always what mobilised me again. That's always how it worked out above with the natural reconnecting with actions and the tangible world (Se) as the end result.

    They need to consciously seek out ways to take action on their ideas, even if they might fail to accomplish the end goal in the ways they hoped to. Starting small can be useful for the ISTP, just seeking out the physical world around them. Focusing on their senses and the things which excite them, whether this be going outside or trying out a new restaurant. Focusing on those senses and allowing themselves to live in the present, is really the best way for the ISTP to escape this endless loop. When they find themselves trapped in this cycle it is important to take those first steps towards action, rather than allowing stagnancy to control their behaviors and thoughts
    It works for me as it takes me out of my head and grounds me in getting shit done. This then clears up the brain fog. The only way to escape my mind is being in a flow state engaged with external reality.

    I mean... to me this part feels like the ISTP is some intuitive type.
    I thought I was ILI or IEI, others saw ILE. So yeah.. according to the Ni-Ti loop I'm a stereotypical MBTI ISTP.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 10-16-2020 at 06:56 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SnatchYourWeave View Post
    With her specifically? I know her and observed her, and we worked together. There’s 2 basic ways to know someone very quickly and well- work with them and/or live with them. I’ve done both. She’s not a character or archetype which can be easily spotted. Besides, LSI-Se are the more common LSI type. She’s excellent at enforcing on an administrative level where she aggressively fights to have her artists get the most benefits. LSI-Se are very aggressive when it comes to bargaining. They handle leadership better but they don’t like being tested on their authority. They operate on very absolute terms. Point is, the explicit written rules are easy to enforce when one side don’t pull their weight. The hard part is how do you get someone to cooperate if they’re slacking? When it comes to dealing and managing people especially those who are unpredictable, she gets enormously frustrated (LSIs in general do). She’s not going to cut them off and she doesn’t want to threaten them even though inside she does.
    That's pretty weird to me for how I understood how LSI-Se is. LSI-Ti I can see having issues with using "too much" direct force or adapt to what they did not expect/predict, but LSI-Se is described as not having issues with it:

    - "Can apply pressure on his subordinates if he is in a leadership position, forcing them to work conscientiously; inclined to "tighten the screws" giving instructions in imperative intonation; will check if his orders have been carried out. If his arguments are not taken under consideration, may flare up and try to force others to do everything as it should be done."

    - "Orients quickly in extreme situations, displaying considerable willpower, endurance, and practical resourcefulness."

    (Wikisocion LSI subtypes)

    I really had a sense from your pic that she's the Ti subtype but you know her better obviously.

    Maybe those artists are slacking so much that the above LSI-Se methods don't work on them tho yeah


    She hired me not because it was planned, but because she’s already observed how I am in the public sphere and knows how I am with people that gave her the idea I could enforce the rules and make sure the consequences stick when it comes to this line of work. She does know on the professional level that I am very qualified, because I worked as a production assistant (for a large network). Much of it goes to the fact that I easily impose my will on others without any thought behind it and don’t give a shit who says no. She doesn’t operate that way and doesn’t bypass rules and she won’t coerce.
    That's the thing, my understanding was Ti subtype doesn't do much coercion but Se subtype will if needed. In your video too it went beyond just idle Ti moralising, umm.....that wasn't a bad example there lol

    Also LSI-Se is described as not always keeping to the rules lol, they can get impulsive. Ti sub is the one that doesn't bypass rules and Ti sub is the real administrator/bureaucrat type.


    But to me, if you want this result, you’ll do as I say. And I don’t give orders and not participate.
    That's good lol, no hypocrisy there then


    I’m present, coordinate activities that would be conducive to the goals and I would also be there doing what they’re doing- I went to the gym consistently and worked out with them, kept on top of their diets and even ate the same as them when in company, sat there during recording sessions and gave them suggestions and how to implement it, etc. I categorized and enforced regiments. I made sure they had some order in their life to make it conducive to carrying out their contracts. LSIs in general are very bad when it comes to getting others to cooperate. They let people run amuck and when ppl get totally outta control; they purge them. To them, due to Ti being lead, “The rules should be adhered to and your actions should fall in line with those rules. I shouldn’t have to tell you what to do, you should know it already.” SLE works the other around- “I will do this and then legitimize my actions.”
    That again just sounds Ti subtype to me. What you said about SLE makes sense lol

    One thing I do want to ask you - as an SLE - about though. So you said you categorise, create and enforce the regimens, but when does your "P-ness" come out, your spontaneity and wanting to make change and variety etc? Does it not get to be too much of a burden after a while to keep and enforce the consistent regimens as an SLE-Se? Even SLE-Ti is described as getting unhappy with having to keep it up after they already lost interest. Or for you money or something else keeps you interested? What is it exactly if so?

    - "Grows bored if he doesn't find an application to his abilities, or if he has to finish something he's lost an interest in or that which has no practical interest for him. Only new experiences and impressions and frequent changes in activity raise his vitality."

    (Wikisocion SLE-Ti subtype desc)


    Now that I think about it further, I understand why LSI likes to partner up with SLE. It’s like Stalin (LSI) and Zhukov (SLE), Diocletian (LSI) and Maximian (SLE). The brains behind the power needs the enforcer with brains to exact the consequences of the power.
    Tbh I'm talking about all this bc previously I was not all that clear on what LSI-Se is really like in practice. I had the impression they were an enforcer type pretty much but ofc not in the same way as SLE.

    And, "enforcer with brains" I like that for either one lol

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    No, I don't. For me its like I turn into a depressed and withdrawn ILI.. if it gets bad I might go into IEI territory. Nihilistic depression... completely unsatisfying.
    Ah ok for me completely IEI territory, lol. But IEI stuff is not nihilistic depression to me


    Imo its pointless to think about wtf will happen in the future or plan for it, because no plan survives contact with reality, so I just set a rough goal and improvise the rest based on the situation I encounter. I'm a 6 so its very easy to imagine worst case situations and mentally prepare for them, but I don't plan otherwise.
    I don't plan even in the sense of mentally preparing

    Yeah rough goal and improvising/adjusting otherwise


    I have no idea wtf I did the day be4 yesterday much less in the past. For me the past is nebulous and uninteresting. I focus on goals and and what I want to do or accomplish / getting there. I don't necessarily want to see the future, for me its more like I crave meaning, to be part of something bigger than myself, bigger than mere survival. To fight nihilism and achieve something of value.
    I relate to all that very well

    Tho for meaning I don't know if it feels like being "part of something bigger than myself". But yeah, bigger than mere survival. And I don't worry about nihilism


    I'm a 6 so I'm always thinking, connecting the dots, figuring stuff out. It cannot be stopped, its not voluntary. I analyze absolutely everything and everyone, categorizing, problem seeking and solving and so on. I'm like this by default, always was.
    The involuntary connecting the dots would fit the Ni HA perhaps


    I doubt others and sometimes my won thoughts as well, always thinking and trying to narrow down options to the most worth while and workable given the situation I'm facing, trying to see what makes the most sense. I feel best when I can take charge and do what I think is best, to go and get shit done, to actually be moving or pushing my way towards a goal or solution. Stagnation is death and Ni-Ti loop is stagnation.
    Yeah I like your "Se/Ni" there lol


    Yeah, I doubt a lot, I'm a 6 after all. This is common.
    Gotcha lol, I hate anxiety, passivity & paranoia in addition to the things I listed, just to make that list complete


    Idk, I mainly feel nothing (grey dullness) unless I'm engaging with other people and those ppl trigger some emotion in me. On my own I'm rather bland in terms of internal emotional landscape. IEI sates are usually triggered by negative experience with ppl during Ni-Ti loop and I mainly feel annoyance to outright rage. I rarely feel happy tbh. Positive emotions are often quite the rarity, but they do happen outside of Ni-Ti states. Usually I'm confused as to what I feel and on very rare occasions I get blindsided by a torrent of feelings under a lot of stress and I have 0 idea from where or why the feelings are happening.
    IEI state I don't associate with annoyance or rage, so Iguess we are talking about very different things under the same three letters lol

    Lol I relate to the feeling nothing without engagement (tho I usually don't explicitly feel dull, just comfortably emotionally neutral), and torrent of feelings lol I liked that description. I had to be on BCP (birth control pill) though for having actual torrents of feelings.


    Yeah, this is the source of my procrastination. This happens 100%.
    Gotcha...would it help methodically exploring the worst possibility and then methodically toning it down to the realistic worst possibility, which then would no longer be catastrophising and would allow you to actually figure out some course of action or reframing or whatever other useful perspective to be prepared?


    This is a stereotypical unhealthy type 6 thing and it happens to me exactly as described here. Stagnation through overthinking = no action, just procrastination & paranoia.
    Ne PoLR huh? My ESI friend does this a lot, I think he's probably 6 too. My LSI friend is 1 and he doesn't do it. He instead calls himself cruel and I can see what he means by it: he has a focus on the tasks and will ignore his internal states/feelings even when others would view that a cruel treatment to emotions. If that makes sense. He basically ignores his internal emotions, ignores the impulse to ruminate, and just does his tasks and clockwork schedules and even volunteers to help others so he can have even more tasks to engage with to be able to keep ignoring the internal stuff. He's just a cold machine lol


    It works for me as it takes me out of my head and grounds me in getting shit done. This then clears up the brain fog. The only way to escape my mind is being in a flow state engaged with external reality.
    Hm when it's not an option to seek excitement, you could try what LSI friend does then... focus on tasks.


    I thought I was ILI or IEI, others saw ILE. So yeah.. according to the Ni-Ti loop I'm a stereotypical MBTI ISTP.
    I do def see it as standard Ne PoLR + E6

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    That's pretty weird to me for how I understood how LSI-Se is. LSI-Ti I can see having issues with using "too much" direct force or adapt to what they did not expect/predict, but LSI-Se is described as not having issues with it:

    - "Can apply pressure on his subordinates if he is in a leadership position, forcing them to work conscientiously; inclined to "tighten the screws" giving instructions in imperative intonation; will check if his orders have been carried out. If his arguments are not taken under consideration, may flare up and try to force others to do everything as it should be done."

    - "Orients quickly in extreme situations, displaying considerable willpower, endurance, and practical resourcefulness."

    (Wikisocion LSI subtypes)

    I really had a sense from your pic that she's the Ti subtype but you know her better obviously.

    Maybe those artists are slacking so much that the above LSI-Se methods don't work on them tho yeah

    That's the thing, my understanding was Ti subtype doesn't do much coercion but Se subtype will if needed. In your video too it went beyond just idle Ti moralising, umm.....that wasn't a bad example there lol

    Also LSI-Se is described as not always keeping to the rules lol, they can get impulsive. Ti sub is the one that doesn't bypass rules and Ti sub is the real administrator/bureaucrat type.
    I think you're trying to understand how the subtypes are based from theory first and trying to match them to my real life example and you don't know the context. The descriptions aren't supposed to be taken literally. She knows how to apply pressure in her sphere, as all LSIs know how to apply pressure because Se is used in a precise and specific manner, but she is not their "leader" nor are they her "subordinate." She represents them and is therefore their advocate, so in all Ti technicality, she works for them and is actually under them. Although she wants to strangle them, she knows that if she does, she won't get anywhere good. She's not impulsive but she's also not avoidant of taking uncalculated chances. If anything, according to the wikisoc description, she was my boss because she hired me and she didn't have any reason to flare up against me.

    Keep in mind, Se subtype doesn't make the LSI more bold in an arena when they know they're not good at it, they are just able to loosen up on some of the Ti rigidity but they won't bend Ti not the way that SLE does. I'll say this again, LSI is Ti lead. People do NOT compromise their lead function and Ti is not about coercion, even if it is paired with Se. Creative function is strong, but cautious and used in a precise and specific manner to establish the lead function's authority because everything is about the lead function.

    Just because LSI-Se tends to flare up faster than LSI-Ti, that don't mean that they will. They don't flare up without justification of actually being in the right position to flare up. With my friend's case, she was not within her rights of doing so, which was why she wanted to but won't (not publicly/not to them, but vent to me). Keep in mind, her Ti is stronger than mine. This is the part where she knew she needed someone who's more adept at bending Ti than she is and she asked me to help. As another thing, she's got about 8-10 years on me and she's been in the business for a very long time, since she graduated college so about 12+ years but we've been friends 3 years. I don't know what she was like before I met her, so I am only speaking of what I know and the information that I've assessed since knowing her and I know she is Se subtype. Again, she's a real person, not an archetype.


    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    One thing I do want to ask you - as an SLE - about though. So you said you categorise, create and enforce the regimens, but when does your "P-ness" come out, your spontaneity and wanting to make change and variety etc? Does it not get to be too much of a burden after a while to keep and enforce the consistent regimens as an SLE-Se? Even SLE-Ti is described as getting unhappy with having to keep it up after they already lost interest. Or for you money or something else keeps you interested? What is it exactly if so?

    - "Grows bored if he doesn't find an application to his abilities, or if he has to finish something he's lost an interest in or that which has no practical interest for him. Only new experiences and impressions and frequent changes in activity raise his vitality."

    (Wikisocion SLE-Ti subtype desc)
    I don't think in socionics there is such thing as "P-ness" like how MBTI makes the dichotomies of P vs. J. So you read on the literal level that because I'm able to categorize, create, and enforce regiments on others, whom I was hired to do that it sounds like I would be a J and that J means routine? The P or the J is to signify if the type is irrational (perceiving, P) or rational (judging, J). All types categorize and organize information, they just do differently and rational types can be spontaneous as well. Irrational types don't corner the market on spontaneity. I was speaking from a general standpoint.

    My work is work. My philosophy is I do what I like and is good at it. It's never only about the money, but the money is that tangible compensation that I deem worthy in exchange for the quality of work I produce and if I accept a job, I know I'll deliver. I do what I do base upon the given circumstances that lay before me. Obviously, it depended upon my charge's personality and some I was able to be more loose and some I had to tighten the rope. It's not like I was a dictator and told them they HAVE to workout at 9am every Monday, Wednesday, Friday and no exceptions. If they weren't feeling well or certain things come up, then there's reasonable adjustments made. The point was to get them to be more orderly and establish consistency. I wasn't there to run their lives and whatever it was, it wasn't for long-term. I was there for short periods to get them motivated by giving them a starting point. Some people have trouble starting so I helped them on that score. They weren't children and I'm not a babysitter.

    I would have thought that since you align with SLE that you would have Ti reasoned all this out and not placed what I've said in such a literal box and keep probing for more details. I don't think anything I've said in the past is anything below clear.
    Last edited by SnatchYourWeave; 10-17-2020 at 12:37 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Gotcha...would it help methodically exploring the worst possibility and then methodically toning it down to the realistic worst possibility, which then would no longer be catastrophising and would allow you to actually figure out some course of action or reframing or whatever other useful perspective to be prepared?
    Nope. What works is sweeping aside the thoughts (which have a life of their own) and just acting on what makes the most sense in spite of everything. Its like making a leap of faith and then improvising to make sure it works out well. By the time this happens I have already over-analyzed things and know the right move, doubt is just in the way of acting on it.


    Ne PoLR huh? My ESI friend does this a lot, I think he's probably 6 too. My LSI friend is 1 and he doesn't do it. He instead calls himself cruel and I can see what he means by it: he has a focus on the tasks and will ignore his internal states/feelings even when others would view that a cruel treatment to emotions. If that makes sense. He basically ignores his internal emotions, ignores the impulse to ruminate, and just does his tasks and clockwork schedules and even volunteers to help others so he can have even more tasks to engage with to be able to keep ignoring the internal stuff. He's just a cold machine lol
    That sounds like enneagram type 7. Sevens like to escape their inner negative world and they do this by desperately engaging with something external, while at the same time ignoring internal negative states.

    E1s are critical, idealistic and very much in touch with their negative states & esp anger which comes out as both internal and external criticism. They typically hold themselves to an even higher standard than they do other people, so their internal critical voice will be rather strong. People who beat themselves up over things most others would not.

    It is a misconception imo that thinking types have no emotions or ignore these with ease.

    Hm when it's not an option to seek excitement, you could try what LSI friend does then... focus on tasks.
    It isn't excitement seeking for me tbh. Its more like I anchor myself into reality via Se and just keep pushing forward despite the automatic negative thoughts in my head. Being in motion, getting somewhere inspire of obstacles in the way, improvise adapt overcome.
    Imagine yourself haunted by voices, some mocking, some doubting, some of them encouraging.. but you do what you need to do in spite of them being there. A kind of "Grit your teeth and push into the darkness"

    If you have ever played Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice, its like her voices, but without the auditory hallucinations. Senua in the game imo is a very good example of a core E4-6-8 Sx/Sp in that order.



    I do def see it as standard Ne PoLR + E6
    There is a song about type 6, the lyrics go somehow like this:

    I want to believe
    No, I choose to believe
    That I was made to become
    A sanctuary
    Fear won’t go away
    But I can keep it at bay
    And these invisible walls
    Just might keep us safe
    With vigilant heart
    I’ll push into the dark
    But I’ll learn to breathe deep
    And make peace with the stars
    Is that courage or faith
    To show up every day?


    For a six courage and faith are sort of the same thing.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 10-17-2020 at 03:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SnatchYourWeave View Post
    I think you're trying to understand how the subtypes are based from theory first and trying to match them to my real life example and you don't know the context. The descriptions aren't supposed to be taken literally.

    I would have thought that since you align with SLE that you would have Ti reasoned all this out and not placed what I've said in such a literal box and keep probing for more details. I don't think anything I've said in the past is anything below clear.
    Alright look. I was friendly to you, so take your sucky personal criticism somewhere else. Like, up your ass, it would fit well there.

    Also, pot calls the kettle black about being literal and black&white ......... I'm (was) just more patient with you about it because it's a thread about discussion of LSI subtypes and not a thread about criticising the other person.


    She knows how to apply pressure in her sphere, as all LSIs know how to apply pressure because Se is used in a precise and specific manner, but she is not their "leader" nor are they her "subordinate." She represents them and is therefore their advocate, so in all Ti technicality, she works for them and is actually under them. Although she wants to strangle them, she knows that if she does, she won't get anywhere good. She's not impulsive but she's also not avoidant of taking uncalculated chances. If anything, according to the wikisoc description, she was my boss because she hired me and she didn't have any reason to flare up against me.

    Keep in mind, Se subtype doesn't make the LSI more bold in an arena when they know they're not good at it, they are just able to loosen up on some of the Ti rigidity but they won't bend Ti not the way that SLE does. I'll say this again, LSI is Ti lead. People do NOT compromise their lead function and Ti is not about coercion, even if it is paired with Se. Creative function is strong, but cautious and used in a precise and specific manner to establish the lead function's authority because everything is about the lead function.
    What I said was that I have a different image of LSI-Ti/LSI-Se than you. Which I shared with you. So what?

    Yep, I still have a different image of it. To me it's still the Ti sub that's all the stuck up shit that doesn't like breaking the rules, can't adjust to a little unpredictability and is never impulsive. Though tbh even my friend (Ti sub) is able to adjust e.g. his schedule no problem, otherwise yeah he's not impulsive or adaptable.

    Also you said I'm the one who uses theory first, while you seem to be the one going by theory primarily, not me ..... I mean I really don't believe that people ACTUALLY fit in these neat boxes, like "people do NOT compromise their lead function", lol. I see that compromising all the time just fine. Life is not Socionics, pardon me, Astronics. Alot of people are ambiverts and "ambirationals" and all kinds of "ambi".

    What I try to do instead is see patterns and images (but not the archetypes shit, thanks), but I don't expect everything to neatly fit for those, even when I'm actively exploring the patterns/images like I have been in this thread.

    Anyway I was originally willing to engage on discussion on the patterns but I can't be bothered now to actually think about this discussion so all that's my final statements and I'm not interested if you agree or disagree. It's not worth the pain in the ass to remain patient with it.


    Just because LSI-Se tends to flare up faster than LSI-Ti, that don't mean that they will.
    Now who's the one taking things literally and using literal boxes? Bc I never said that in the way you thought I did.


    They don't flare up without justification of actually being in the right position to flare up. With my friend's case, she was not within her rights of doing so, which was why she wanted to but won't (not publicly/not to them, but vent to me). Keep in mind, her Ti is stronger than mine. This is the part where she knew she needed someone who's more adept at bending Ti than she is and she asked me to help. As another thing, she's got about 8-10 years on me and she's been in the business for a very long time, since she graduated college so about 12+ years but we've been friends 3 years. I don't know what she was like before I met her, so I am only speaking of what I know and the information that I've assessed since knowing her and I know she is Se subtype. Again, she's a real person, not an archetype.
    And what the fuck is this about archetypes?

    Overall fuck Socionics rabbitholes if it creates schizophrenic disagreements, lol.


    I don't think in socionics there is such thing as "P-ness" like how MBTI makes the dichotomies of P vs. J. So you read on the literal level that because I'm able to categorize, create, and enforce regiments on others, whom I was hired to do that it sounds like I would be a J and that J means routine? The P or the J is to signify if the type is irrational (perceiving, P) or rational (judging, J). All types categorize and organize information, they just do differently and rational types can be spontaneous as well. Irrational types don't corner the market on spontaneity. I was speaking from a general standpoint.
    Who the fuck cares if Socionics uses the word "P-ness". You are taking me too literally again. I was just curious how you are with these things so IDK what you got so stuck about here.


    My work is work. My philosophy is I do what I like and is good at it. It's never only about the money, but the money is that tangible compensation that I deem worthy in exchange for the quality of work I produce and if I accept a job, I know I'll deliver. I do what I do base upon the given circumstances that lay before me. Obviously, it depended upon my charge's personality and some I was able to be more loose and some I had to tighten the rope. It's not like I was a dictator and told them they HAVE to workout at 9am every Monday, Wednesday, Friday and no exceptions. If they weren't feeling well or certain things come up, then there's reasonable adjustments made. The point was to get them to be more orderly and establish consistency. I wasn't there to run their lives and whatever it was, it wasn't for long-term. I was there for short periods to get them motivated by giving them a starting point. Some people have trouble starting so I helped them on that score. They weren't children and I'm not a babysitter.
    No, it was not obvious, because you didn't say anything before about this part. With your description, I see now what you were/are doing, I'm not a psychic so I'm not gonna guess without actual info. You said I shouldn't go by theory, there you go because I wasn't, I asked you instead about how the actual reality of this is for you. So it's really ironic you'd complain like that. Thanks.
    Last edited by grumpyvic81; 10-17-2020 at 09:27 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Nope. What works is sweeping aside the thoughts (which have a life of their own) and just acting on what makes the most sense in spite of everything. Its like making a leap of faith and then improvising to make sure it works out well. By the time this happens I have already over-analyzed things and know the right move, doubt is just in the way of acting on it.
    Ah alright, I thought you got stuck sooner as in getting to figure out the right move. That's where we are different because if I figured out the right move, I don't doubt, I just go ahead with acting on it. That's where it kinda is alien to me and is hard to imagine what it is like for you. But you described it in an interesting way, almost possible to imagine kinda, lol


    That sounds like enneagram type 7. Sevens like to escape their inner negative world and they do this by desperately engaging with something external, while at the same time ignoring internal negative states.
    LOOOL if you ever saw him, you'd laugh at your own suggestion here.

    Lol, he's anything but a 7.


    E1s are critical, idealistic and very much in touch with their negative states & esp anger which comes out as both internal and external criticism. They typically hold themselves to an even higher standard than they do other people, so their internal critical voice will be rather strong. People who beat themselves up over things most others would not.
    That's 1 sp you are talking about. He's either 1 soc or 1 sx, not sure which. So he ignores that and focuses outside. 1 sp is the one that focuses inside fully. But yes he's a very critical person with high standards and is aware of how he has negative stuff internally but like I said he chooses to ignore it by doing tasks instead.

    BTW only 1 sx is really aware of their anger because they are the countertype to 1. 1s by default have poor awareness of their anger and that's exactly the catch for them.


    It is a misconception imo that thinking types have no emotions or ignore these with ease.
    Obviously everyone has emotions, but some people do repress them more than others. Type doesn't really predict this in detail on the individual's level, but there is definitely that general tendency that thinking types will ignore the emotions sooner than feeling types.

    My friend is stereotypical thinking type with ignoring them. I am too btw


    It isn't excitement seeking for me tbh. Its more like I anchor myself into reality via Se and just keep pushing forward despite the automatic negative thoughts in my head. Being in motion, getting somewhere inspire of obstacles in the way, improvise adapt overcome.
    Imagine yourself haunted by voices, some mocking, some doubting, some of them encouraging.. but you do what you need to do in spite of them being there. A kind of "Grit your teeth and push into the darkness"

    If you have ever played Hellblade: Senua's Sacrifice, its like her voices, but without the auditory hallucinations. Senua in the game imo is a very good example of a core E4-6-8 Sx/Sp in that order.
    Again that was a cool description, thanks.

    For me this is a default mode - easier for me I think because I don't have the automatic negative thoughts. I do associate the presence of automatic negative thoughts with feelers more but I'm not saying thinkers don't ever have them. (I'm not pushing some retyping on you) I had them too when stressed. The idea is just that automatic negative thoughts are thinking produced by (negative) feelings/emotions, that is why they are automatic. And negative because they reflect the mood/the emotions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Ah alright, I thought you got stuck sooner as in getting to figure out the right move. That's where we are different because if I figured out the right move, I don't doubt, I just go ahead with acting on it. That's where it kinda is alien to me and is hard to imagine what it is like for you. But you described it in an interesting way, almost possible to imagine kinda, lol

    LOOOL if you ever saw him, you'd laugh at your own suggestion here.

    Lol, he's anything but a 7.
    yeah, I probably am wrong about this. I read that lvl 5 disintegration to e4 of enneagram type 1 actually looks like what you described your friend as. Enneagram type 1s however are for the most part MBTI ISTJs.. because its the pure melancholic type. I'm no ISTJ tho, despite some similarities, such as being melancholic myself.



    That's 1 sp you are talking about. He's either 1 soc or 1 sx, not sure which. So he ignores that and focuses outside. 1 sp is the one that focuses inside fully. But yes he's a very critical person with high standards and is aware of how he has negative stuff internally but like I said he chooses to ignore it by doing tasks instead.

    BTW only 1 sx is really aware of their anger because they are the countertype to 1. 1s by default have poor awareness of their anger and that's exactly the catch for them.
    Yeah, I can't relate. I'm rather easy going and do not like controlling people, so I don't do it to others either tbh, not a e1 bone in my body. My boss tho, she is like this. Our situation is more like I tolerate her until it's too much and then I blow up and tell her to go fuck herself. Your friend sounds unhealthy, that isn't a good coping mechanism.

    Obviously everyone has emotions, but some people do repress them more than others. Type doesn't really predict this in detail on the individual's level, but there is definitely that general tendency that thinking types will ignore the emotions sooner than feeling types.

    My friend is stereotypical thinking type with ignoring them. I am too btw
    .

    Anger is the one emotion I'm really aware of in me tbh. (E8 gut fix I guess). I don't really ignore emotions, I'm triple reactive as I said and I can't seem to disengage from Fe emotional appeals of other people either (seems to be an LxI thing based on descriptions, Fe Suggestive?). Normally on my own however I'm emotionally flat-lined. It takes interacting with other ppl to feel anything that would even register. Usually music is good for this.
    I can get angry extremely fast and cool down fast as well or at least it seems that way, maybe because I'm not aware of the slower buildup.

    There was a question I had to answer on video: 7. In what situations are you alive and emotional?
    Here is what Gulenko wrote in his analisis of me in terms of T & F:

    Logic is more than ethics
    The respondent is good at systematization and comprehension of complex information. He approaches everything that happens from the logical point of view - he tries to find regularities and draw reasonable conclusions. When memorizing, he relies on connections between the data to build a biger picture. He is good at solving problems where there is a system, including technical ones.
    Judging by his facial expressions, his smile is more like a role smile, i.e. consciously represented. Perhaps, he is learning some communication techniques on purpose. Emotions rarely capture him to such an extent that he loses self-control.


    Again that was a cool description, thanks.

    For me this is a default mode - easier for me I think because I don't have the automatic negative thoughts. I do associate the presence of automatic negative thoughts with feelers more but I'm not saying thinkers don't ever have them. (I'm not pushing some retyping on you) I had them too when stressed. The idea is just that automatic negative thoughts are thinking produced by (negative) feelings/emotions, that is why they are automatic. And negative because they reflect the mood/the emotions.
    If that is true every E6 is a feeler.

    LSI described in terms of emotions. Abstract from Gulenko's book , end of page 147, beginning of page 148:

    LSI is often in a gloomy, serious mood. She accumulates negative
    emotions. She periodically pours them out on someone else and
    feels temporarily relieved. To be in good condition, she needs frequent
    fluctuations of emotional background. She cannot stand to be pressured by
    negative emotions — crying, whims, accusations, etc. — and it is easier
    for her to give in than to ignore them. Internally, she is rather touchy and
    vulnerable, although she does not show this, considering it to be a
    weakness.


    I guess there is a difference between having emotions and being emotionally expressive. I'm rather incompetent at expressing feelings outside of anger or annoyance or maybe when I'm rly happy and its hard to contain. Otherwise just keep stuff on the inside.

    role Fi for LSI is also kinda interesting:

    Rational logical introverts — the Analyst and the Inspector .8
    These types balance their natural commitment to structure and logic
    with the demonstration of relationships to surrounding people. Moreover,
    the manifestations of relational ethics (function R) are differently colored
    in them. The Analyst demonstrates alienation, a distant psychological
    distance and a negative attitude. The Inspector though, is strict and
    intolerant of illogic manifested by people. The Inspector plays out
    involvement, maintains a close distance, and has a good attitude towards
    .everybody


    This kind of explains why I'm friendly on a more superficial level.
    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 10-18-2020 at 04:45 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    yeah, I probably am wrong about this. I read that lvl 5 disintegration to e4 of enneagram type 1 actually looks like what you described your friend as. Enneagram type 1s however are for the most part MBTI ISTJs.. because its the pure melancholic type.
    Yep it's kinda e4 shit and that's how he "deals" with it lol.

    He's ISTJ in mbti. But I don't think he's a pure melancholic type. People are not that simple in real life, not like that chart.


    Yeah, I can't relate. I'm rather easy going and do not like controlling people, so I don't do it to others either tbh, not a e1 bone in my body. My boss tho, she is like this. Our situation is more like I tolerate her until it's too much and then I blow up and tell her to go fuck herself. Your friend sounds unhealthy, that isn't a good coping mechanism.
    I agree he's not the most healthy but he has had a lot of shit he had to go through in his life...not long ago.

    He's the stereotypical control freak LSI so lol he wasn't the most healthy before it either. You probably would blow up at him too like at your boss. I have too before


    Anger is the one emotion I'm really aware of in me tbh. (E8 gut fix I guess). I don't really ignore emotions, I'm triple reactive as I said and I can't seem to disengage from Fe emotional appeals of other people either (seems to be an LxI thing based on descriptions, Fe Suggestive?). Normally on my own however I'm emotionally flat-lined. It takes interacting with other ppl to feel anything that would even register. Usually music is good for this.
    I can get angry extremely fast and cool down fast as well or at least it seems that way, maybe because I'm not aware of the slower buildup.
    It just sounds like you got a Choleric streak too. They get angry fast and cool down fast if the problem is solved lol. I got it too actually, I mean, the Choleric bits - I have more of it than the LSI friend, he is truly emotionally constricted so he doesn't display so much choleric anger nah.

    I think inability to disengage from emotional appeals of others just means you are being nice or you care about them/love them. Or if it's unhealthy then it's being a people pleaser. Inability to keep boundaries even when it would be really necessary to keep them (having love/care doesn't mean you should drop all your boundaries).

    I don't actually think that that is type related at all. F and T types do it differently on the surface but the people pleasing thingy is still the same underneath IMO
    Ie being too open to other people's emotional needs and trying to take care of them in whatever way one can do that (T way, F way...).


    There was a question I had to answer on video: 7. In what situations are you alive and emotional?
    Here is what Gulenko wrote in his analisis of me in terms of T & F:

    Emotions rarely capture him to such an extent that he loses self-control.
    Lol that's true of the LSI friend....I've never EVER seen him lose any self-control. He's so flat with emotions but yeah also not very Choleric (secondary Choleric at best because he does keep his anger controlled.... he's probably 1 soc actually, 1 sx would be less controlled)


    If that is true every E6 is a feeler.
    No no, what I said was that everyone can have this mode, thinkers too. Kinda like there are thinker women too even tho women are feelers more often. ... So I can see a thinker E6 doing this when falling into their enneagram trap or whatever. Even if thinkers are more stereotypically E1/E3/E5 (competency triad)


    LSI described in terms of emotions. Abstract from Gulenko's book , end of page 147, beginning of page 148:

    LSI is often in a gloomy, serious mood. She accumulates negative
    emotions. She periodically pours them out on someone else and
    feels temporarily relieved. To be in good condition, she needs frequent
    fluctuations of emotional background. She cannot stand to be pressured by
    negative emotions — crying, whims, accusations, etc. — and it is easier
    for her to give in than to ignore them. Internally, she is rather touchy and
    vulnerable, although she does not show this, considering it to be a
    weakness.


    I guess there is a difference between having emotions and being emotionally expressive. I'm rather incompetent at expressing feelings outside of anger or annoyance or maybe when I'm rly happy and its hard to contain. Otherwise just keep stuff on the inside.
    Are you different online? Because here online (plus in your video as far as I recall) you are pretty easily expressive with these little bursts of excitement and other expressions.

    And yeah, that description fits my friend really well except he hides the gloomy stuff. Because he compulsively focuses outside on those tasks... So he just looks cold/detached when focusing on those but I know he has feelings inside lol (he is more aware of his feelz than I am actually...no Fi PoLR for him!! Able to internalise better)


    role Fi for LSI is also kinda interesting:

    Rational logical introverts — the Analyst and the Inspector .8
    These types balance their natural commitment to structure and logic
    with the demonstration of relationships to surrounding people. Moreover,
    the manifestations of relational ethics (function R) are differently colored
    in them. The Analyst demonstrates alienation, a distant psychological
    distance and a negative attitude. The Inspector though, is strict and
    intolerant of illogic manifested by people. The Inspector plays out
    involvement, maintains a close distance, and has a good attitude towards
    .everybody


    This kind of explains why I'm friendly on a more superficial level.
    I dunno, I don't see this as terribly type related. Lots of people are friendly on a superficial level, for various reasons, like, to get liked, to fit in, to please people (people-pleasers), to get something out of the other person, to network, to keep to social norms by mirroring (be friendly in a friendly situation, hostile in a hostile one), to avoid social shame, .....

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Yep it's kinda e4 shit and that's how he "deals" with it lol.

    He's ISTJ in mbti. But I don't think he's a pure melancholic type. People are not that simple in real life, not like that chart.
    The chart is made by an INTP I met on Personality Cafe.

    I agree he's not the most healthy but he has had a lot of shit he had to go through in his life...not long ago.

    He's the stereotypical control freak LSI so lol he wasn't the most healthy before it either. You probably would blow up at him too like at your boss. I have too before
    Xd most likely.

    It just sounds like you got a Choleric streak too. They get angry fast and cool down fast if the problem is solved lol. I got it too actually, I mean, the Choleric bits - I have more of it than the LSI friend, he is truly emotionally constricted so he doesn't display so much choleric anger nah.
    Yeah, I can't deny that.

    I think inability to disengage from emotional appeals of others just means you are being nice or you care about them/love them. Or if it's unhealthy then it's being a people pleaser. Inability to keep boundaries even when it would be really necessary to keep them (having love/care doesn't mean you should drop all your boundaries).
    I don't actually think that that is type related at all. F and T types do it differently on the surface but the people pleasing thingy is still the same underneath IMO
    Ie being too open to other people's emotional needs and trying to take care of them in whatever way one can do that (T way, F way...).
    Hmm, its more like I can't help but react to it one way or another. Asking nicely and lacing it with positive Fe works.. attempting to be manipulative, guilt tripping, accusing, twisting my words and causing drama only has one result tho: a definite NO. Its relatively easy in such a situation to cause me to get very stubborn or worse to blow up, get angry and smash shit as being reasonable and rational becomes pointless without reciprocity. I don't really give much a fuck about Fi in such a situation and burning that Fi bridge with such a person is quite satisfying. This is probably a unhealthy response I developed to deal with my grandmother and her side of the family, who is a manipulative old sociopathic bitch.

    If someone tells me to do something and I'm not under contractual agreement its much more convenient to just say no, coercion is also a bad idea as it makes me aggressive just like attempted manipulation. Asking me to do something without Fe and no details again results in a immediate NO. Persuasion works, esp if the other person has good Fe. If ppl want to get me to do something I either have to like them, agree with them or they have to persuade me or a contract needs to be in place.

    when I still don't know ppl I tend to be nice by default, but getting to know them does away with the surface niceties as I tend to relax.

    Are you different online? Because here online (plus in your video as far as I recall) you are pretty easily expressive with these little bursts of excitement and other expressions.
    I was the same in the video I sent to Gulenko as I was in the type me video here and otherwise on the forum. No difference, I am like that IRL. Compared to an ESE tho or even ESI, its very subdued. by comparison I'm .. artificial.. would be the right word. Its all surface level mostly learned stuff. IF social interaction goes on long enough I will actually not have the energy to maintain the facade and power down into "serious and bored" mode. Thats when ppl start asking if something is wrong.. annoying. Its weird that Gulenko picked up on me learning communication techniques. I had to do it tbh as the social sphere is where my weakness is, I'm not very competent at building and maintaining relationships or emoting, much less so if it involves more than one person to interact with. One to one it can go decently well and I don't seem to turn into that low battery robot. I have talked with ppl before one to one almost an entire day non stop about rather heavy topics and it didn't drain me.

    Introverted feelers are rather "soulful"..



    Extroverted feelers are "passionate"

    Last edited by shotgunfingers; 10-19-2020 at 06:17 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post
    Hmm, its more like I can't help but react to it one way or another. Asking nicely and lacing it with positive Fe works.. attempting to be manipulative, guilt tripping, accusing, twisting my words and causing drama only has one result tho: a definite NO. Its relatively easy in such a situation to cause me to get very stubborn or worse to blow up, get angry and smash shit as being reasonable and rational becomes pointless without reciprocity. I don't really give much a fuck about Fi in such a situation and burning that Fi bridge with such a person is quite satisfying. This is probably a unhealthy response I developed to deal with my grandmother and her side of the family, who is a manipulative old sociopathic bitch.

    If someone tells me to do something and I'm not under contractual agreement its much more convenient to just say no, coercion is also a bad idea as it makes me aggressive just like attempted manipulation. Asking me to do something without Fe and no details again results in a immediate NO. Persuasion works, esp if the other person has good Fe. If ppl want to get me to do something I either have to like them, agree with them or they have to persuade me or a contract needs to be in place.

    when I still don't know ppl I tend to be nice by default, but getting to know them does away with the surface niceties as I tend to relax.
    All that just sounds like a normal reasonable human being who doesn't want bad drama. I relate a lot lol.

    OK, extreme anger is extreme, lol. I usually use my anger on the offensive ie to get something, rather than on the defensive like you seem to be (to refuse requests or the offensive from another person). Would be in line with Se creative for you supposedly (that's the one that tends to use anger like that; Se lead goes on the offensive instead)


    I was the same in the video I sent to Gulenko as I was in the type me video here and otherwise on the forum. No difference, I am like that IRL. Compared to an ESE tho or even ESI, its very subdued. by comparison I'm .. artificial.. would be the right word. Its all surface level mostly learned stuff. IF social interaction goes on long enough I will actually not have the energy to maintain the facade and power down into "serious and bored" mode. Thats when ppl start asking if something is wrong.. annoying. Its weird that Gulenko picked up on me learning communication techniques. I had to do it tbh as the social sphere is where my weakness is, I'm not very competent at building and maintaining relationships or emoting, much less so if it involves more than one person to interact with. One to one it can go decently well and I don't seem to turn into that low battery robot. I have talked with ppl before one to one almost an entire day non stop about rather heavy topics and it didn't drain me.
    I don't feel it's very subdued but it's all relative. You're definitely not like some over the top diva. (Yeah I know some male divas lol...)

    Also I didn't feel you were very artificial per se in the video, I did feel you were strongly trying to be "ingratiating" but it didn't feel totally un-genuine or whatever.

    I do associate some kinds of being ingratiating with LSI Fe suggestive + something else, because LII stereotypically doesn't really do it, I met maybe one likely LII who did it a little (unless idk if he was LSI maybe). My ESI friend is also very ingratiating tho different from LSI...so it could even be some xSI thing lol I don't know tbh if it's related to type whatsoever, these are just my observations from limited data.

    You do sound like an introvert alright with the shutting down after a while. I don't look very socially extraverted but I don't recall having such an experience myself with socialising so I'm more extraverted in that way.


    Introverted feelers are rather "soulful"..

    Extroverted feelers are "passionate"
    Yeah I'm glad people are not just black and white templates of this stuff. It would be so boring. When "skimming", I did see the first video does mention how real people do actually do more than just "Fi" or just "Fe" so that's okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by shotgunfingers View Post

    I want to believe
    No, I choose to believe
    That I was made to become
    A sanctuary
    Fear won’t go away
    But I can keep it at bay
    And these invisible walls
    Just might keep us safe
    With vigilant heart
    I’ll push into the dark
    But I’ll learn to breathe deep
    And make peace with the stars
    Is that courage or faith
    To show up every day?
    Its both and more. Determination. Hope. Belief. No matter what.
    Last edited by raTG13; 10-20-2020 at 03:54 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by raTG13 View Post
    Its both and more. Determination. Hope. Belief. No matter what.
    I would go with this up until "no matter what" 'cause you gotta stay in touch with actual reality too lol

    Do all this while it benefits you. Not further. Determination, hope, belief, do all of it only as far as it still benefits YOU, YOU TOO.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    I would go with this up until "no matter what" 'cause you gotta stay in touch with actual reality too lol

    Do all this while it benefits you. Not further. Determination, hope, belief, do all of it only as far as it still benefits YOU, YOU TOO.
    You mis read my "no matter what".

    I could explain it, but I'm burnt out from explaining myself.

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    Quote Originally Posted by grumpyvic81 View Post
    Alright look. I was friendly to you, so take your sucky personal criticism somewhere else. Like, up your ass, it would fit well there.

    Also, pot calls the kettle black about being literal and black&white ......... I'm (was) just more patient with you about it because it's a thread about discussion of LSI subtypes and not a thread about criticising the other person.




    What I said was that I have a different image of LSI-Ti/LSI-Se than you. Which I shared with you. So what?

    Yep, I still have a different image of it. To me it's still the Ti sub that's all the stuck up shit that doesn't like breaking the rules, can't adjust to a little unpredictability and is never impulsive. Though tbh even my friend (Ti sub) is able to adjust e.g. his schedule no problem, otherwise yeah he's not impulsive or adaptable.

    Also you said I'm the one who uses theory first, while you seem to be the one going by theory primarily, not me ..... I mean I really don't believe that people ACTUALLY fit in these neat boxes, like "people do NOT compromise their lead function", lol. I see that compromising all the time just fine. Life is not Socionics, pardon me, Astronics. Alot of people are ambiverts and "ambirationals" and all kinds of "ambi".

    What I try to do instead is see patterns and images (but not the archetypes shit, thanks), but I don't expect everything to neatly fit for those, even when I'm actively exploring the patterns/images like I have been in this thread.

    Anyway I was originally willing to engage on discussion on the patterns but I can't be bothered now to actually think about this discussion so all that's my final statements and I'm not interested if you agree or disagree. It's not worth the pain in the ass to remain patient with it.




    Now who's the one taking things literally and using literal boxes? Bc I never said that in the way you thought I did.




    And what the fuck is this about archetypes?

    Overall fuck Socionics rabbitholes if it creates schizophrenic disagreements, lol.




    Who the fuck cares if Socionics uses the word "P-ness". You are taking me too literally again. I was just curious how you are with these things so IDK what you got so stuck about here.




    No, it was not obvious, because you didn't say anything before about this part. With your description, I see now what you were/are doing, I'm not a psychic so I'm not gonna guess without actual info. You said I shouldn't go by theory, there you go because I wasn't, I asked you instead about how the actual reality of this is for you. So it's really ironic you'd complain like that. Thanks.
    AHAHAHAHAHA I knew you’d show your true colors. You’re the one who kept asking me repetitive hand-holding questions and idiotic remedial MBTI dichotomy nonsense while I was being patient and friendly towards you by answering everything in good faith. Now you lash back like a whiny little bitch because you felt attacked that my explanation made you look like a fool. You’re the one who opened the door. Not my fault you’re dense and not SLE. You’re not even a Ti ego. I’ve explained the logical reasoning multiple times and all you could do is keep parroting someone else's words as if they’re your own. All you do is keep circle jerking and repeating the same shit over and over as if that’ll make become the truth. I’ve expounded a truth on you, any Ti ego would have already reasoned out theory without any verbatim adherence to Te quotes. You can't even come up with your own arguments to validate your stance which is the most pathetic part.

    In reality, I didn't criticize you, I just allowed you to reveal how incompetent you are. You’ve got shit for brains, you can’t articulate your thoughts because you haven’t got any and rely on regurgitating someone else’s words. That’s not criticism. That’s just a matter of fact.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SnatchYourWeave View Post
    That’s nonsense. No type “pretends” to use their ego because the lead function is what drives the person, hence being called the base. Why pretend something when you already know how to use it? It’s the suggestive function which is the pretender to the throne. People “pretend” to use their suggestive function because it’s the weakest but valued and due to its’ weakness, the person doesn’t know how to use it. It’s shooting in the dark so you have to fake it.

    SLE pretends to be introspective (Ni), LSI pretends to be merrymaking (Fe), EIE pretends to be analytical (Ti), IEI pretends to be tough (Se).
    Various semi-random thoughts: I would say that I saw people most often 'pretend' or 'try hard' on super-ego functions, and that 'pretending' is not exactly 'healthy'. It can also often happen in super-ID region as you mentioned (tho I see it more as genuine efforts at valued functions, but tbh you can also genuinely try in non-valued regions). There is that benefactor/supervisor influence Gulenko has written about (both-way, as in a friendship beneficiary can actually influence benefactor with his thoughts and so on; either way, it should 'bring more' super-ego/ID); accommodating or just being among other quadra people for a longer time would put stress/accentuation on super-ego/ID usage. Mental strain and problems can imo lead to increased (poor) usage or faked usage of non-ego functions in general, rarely complete disintegration.

    There is also difference between 'pretending' (to use, to be a type, because you want to) and 'trying hard' but genuinely (because you don't know better or what). SLE may try hard at Ni, but it's not really pretending as much as reallllly trying and failing (usually, without help and/or experience).

    No one pretends to be their ego tho, 100% true - they /are/ their ego.


    ('Faking' that Se in me till I make it, but I don't think I'm pretending either way)

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