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    Default Socionics and Gender Roles

    One nice thing about Socionics is that it recognizes the existence of men who prefer to be chased and women who prefer to do the chasing. What about when it comes to relationships? Do you find that you prefer to lead as a woman or follow as a man? Do you prefer equal division of power? What is your type? Do you think your type influences this?
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    I think, what you've learned from your family has a bigger impact on this. I'm from a family that is neither patriarchal nor matriarchal. Nobody really needs to force their will on someone, sometimes of course compromises have to be made. The one who leads is the one who is the wisest and most responsible.
    There are different ways of leading. A tyrannic way on one hand, on the other a humble way.
    I'm not that extremely emancipated to the point that I would overpower and henpeck the man. I would be ok with him being the leader in the relationship, but only if he's capable of doing that. Probably because I don't want to be in the same situation like my mother. My father is extremely irresponsible when it comes to money and actually almost everything. I wouldn't want to have the same problems again.
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    coming on too strong in the beginning has been an issue for me since i was like twelve, lol. its one of those things where i can blame it on socionics even though its a personal problem, i doubt all female aggressors deal with the same thing. the tension and ambiguity and wanting to know how the other person feels just isn't something i can sit and savor like some people can. it drives me insane. and sometimes it makes me think i feel more intensely than i do. and once all that tension dissipates and the amibuigity is over i realize my feelings weren't as strong as i thought.

    i need to feel like i'm autonomously making my own decision romantically and that i'm not just going along with somebody elses decision. so if i feel any pressure i lose interest. sometimes that "pressure" can just come in the form of them reciprocating too enthusiastically. which i guess is where a victim "hard to get" thing might come into things but i don't like that idea...of playing games, or whatever. and ideally it would just be the right chemistry where it feels natural without the pressure just because of compatibility.

    its annoyingly complicated and i think its part of what prevents me from wanting to deal with dating.

    then again every relationship is different and none of them fit into any generalized template i could describe. this is just a loose attempt.

    also it seems like people see me as either this pushy independent woman bitch or as a meek and timid submissive girl and i feel like nobody ever really sees that i'm both at the same time. sometimes i get a kick out of a guy bowing to what i want and other times i feel like a damsel in distress. but i guess supposedly it has to be like some kind of either/or thing. but for me its not. there are certain aspects in a relationship that i take more control over because it just feels natural to do so but not because i get any enjoyment out of having control or whatever. and certain things i'd rather be passive about.

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    I see it as more of a tug-oh-war than a chase. I lay out bait, they may take it and I'll pull it back to see if they stop coming. If they don't take the bait, I'll move it around for attention and see if they respond that time, and keep at it until I reel it in all the way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    coming on too strong in the beginning has been an issue for me since i was like twelve, lol. its one of those things where i can blame it on socionics even though its a personal problem, i doubt all female aggressors deal with the same thing. the tension and ambiguity and wanting to know how the other person feels just isn't something i can sit and savor like some people can. it drives me insane. and sometimes it makes me think i feel more intensely than i do. and once all that tension dissipates and the amibuigity is over i realize my feelings weren't as strong as i thought.

    i need to feel like i'm autonomously making my own decision romantically and that i'm not just going along with somebody elses decision. so if i feel any pressure i lose interest. sometimes that "pressure" can just come in the form of them reciprocating too enthusiastically. which i guess is where a victim "hard to get" thing might come into things but i don't like that idea...of playing games, or whatever. and ideally it would just be the right chemistry where it feels natural without the pressure just because of compatibility.

    its annoyingly complicated and i think its part of what prevents me from wanting to deal with dating.

    then again every relationship is different and none of them fit into any generalized template i could describe. this is just a loose attempt.

    also it seems like people see me as either this pushy independent woman bitch or as a meek and timid submissive girl and i feel like nobody ever really sees that i'm both at the same time. sometimes i get a kick out of a guy bowing to what i want and other times i feel like a damsel in distress. but i guess supposedly it has to be like some kind of either/or thing. but for me its not. there are certain aspects in a relationship that i take more control over because it just feels natural to do so but not because i get any enjoyment out of having control or whatever. and certain things i'd rather be passive about.
    OMG, this sounds like a nightmare.
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    Gender roles seem to be just one of many myths that we get brainwashed or pressured into living up to.

    Personally, I sometimes think that love for the other person and wisdom about life in general are more important than power dynamics for a happy relationship.



    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    coming on too strong in the beginning has been an issue for me since i was like twelve, lol. its one of those things where i can blame it on socionics even though its a personal problem, i doubt all female aggressors deal with the same thing. the tension and ambiguity and wanting to know how the other person feels just isn't something i can sit and savor like some people can. it drives me insane. and sometimes it makes me think i feel more intensely than i do. and once all that tension dissipates and the amibuigity is over i realize my feelings weren't as strong as i thought.
    I used to be like this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    coming on too strong in the beginning has been an issue for me since i was like twelve, lol. its one of those things where i can blame it on socionics even though its a personal problem, i doubt all female aggressors deal with the same thing. the tension and ambiguity and wanting to know how the other person feels just isn't something i can sit and savor like some people can. it drives me insane. and sometimes it makes me think i feel more intensely than i do. and once all that tension dissipates and the amibuigity is over i realize my feelings weren't as strong as i thought.

    i need to feel like i'm autonomously making my own decision romantically and that i'm not just going along with somebody elses decision. so if i feel any pressure i lose interest. sometimes that "pressure" can just come in the form of them reciprocating too enthusiastically.
    Jesus christ you're difficult.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Jesus christ you're difficult.
    i'm impossible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i'm impossible.
    Well the combination "want to be absolutely certain" + "don't like the other party to show much interest" is kind of hard to synchronously satisfy.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well the combination "want to be absolutely certain" + "don't like the other party to show much interest" is kind of hard to synchronously satisfy.
    yeah ive thought about sucking it up and just going along with somebody who is obviously interested because it seems a lot more healthy but if i don't feel it then its a good way to lead somebody on. somehow i've managed to have relationships in the past. so...eventually... maybe the stars will align. or not. oh well.

    i dunno i kind of think when its the right person i don't think so much and this stuff isn't as much of an issue. and it just kind of happens. ive just been overanalyzing lately because i haven't dated so long and i don't know exactly why.

    (sorry for derail)

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    i need to feel like i'm autonomously making my own decision romantically and that i'm not just going along with somebody elses decision. so if i feel any pressure i lose interest. sometimes that "pressure" can just come in the form of them reciprocating too enthusiastically. which i guess is where a victim "hard to get" thing might come into things but i don't like that idea...of playing games, or whatever. and ideally it would just be the right chemistry where it feels natural without the pressure just because of compatibility.
    I dealt with this shit with an ESI girl recently and it was fucking infuriating.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Narc View Post
    I dealt with this shit with an ESI girl recently and it was fucking infuriating.
    haha, i'm sorry, but this makes me feel like less of a freak.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    haha, i'm sorry, but this makes me feel like less of a freak.
    Congratulations.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    coming on too strong in the beginning has been an issue for me since i was like twelve, lol. its one of those things where i can blame it on socionics even though its a personal problem, i doubt all female aggressors deal with the same thing. the tension and ambiguity and wanting to know how the other person feels just isn't something i can sit and savor like some people can. it drives me insane. and sometimes it makes me think i feel more intensely than i do. and once all that tension dissipates and the amibuigity is over i realize my feelings weren't as strong as i thought.

    i need to feel like i'm autonomously making my own decision romantically and that i'm not just going along with somebody elses decision. so if i feel any pressure i lose interest. sometimes that "pressure" can just come in the form of them reciprocating too enthusiastically. which i guess is where a victim "hard to get" thing might come into things but i don't like that idea...of playing games, or whatever. and ideally it would just be the right chemistry where it feels natural without the pressure just because of compatibility.
    This is my experience as well!

    As for me, I prefer to be the one initiate relationships. I just wrote a long post about why in my topic in my thread in Delta, so I won't repeat myself. In a relationship, I think I have more control than my partner, but I take my partner's wishes into account much more than my own. My boyfriend calls me "the boss", lol. He says, "You're the boss," to me when we're deciding what to do, and he tells other people, "Let me check with the boss." When someone asks me if I'm free on a certain date, I say, "I think so, but I'll have to check with my secretary," in reference to him. >_< Maybe I shouldn't do that...

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    Quote Originally Posted by JadaeRat View Post
    I am almost entirely the complete opposite, to the point that someone (family) has to essentially remind me to compliment. In my mind, I think, "Well, of course she looks wonderful."


    derp! :[
    lol, i have no idea what this has to do with what i said...
    i think you grabbed the string of the intuitive leap balloon and flew way over my head.

    i dunno if i compliment any more or less than other people.

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    I expect to do all the work and take all the risk.


    The interaction between socionics and an underlying biological phenotype is 100% the most interesting question about the typology for me. How do the different hormonal balances which presumably affect personality seep into the different uses of socionics functions and information elements? How about more fundamental genetic factors which influence personality?

    Or we can skip gender altogether and ask how socionics layers over a fundamentally neurologically different personality like a psychopath's, whether the theory even applies to them and so on. Apes and animals?

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    hahaha. that's why i'm single and spend so much time here.

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    To be clear, I'm not talking about the chase before a relationship; I'm talking about the accepted or expected roles once in a relationship. I started the thread because of people on another forum making statements like "men should be the leaders in a relationship", "men like to be the leaders in a relationship", and "men tend to ultimately resent a female who takes the lead in a relationship". This seems awfully simplistic to me, and I think it's probably placing too much emphasis on gender and not enough on personality, so I thought I'd check for feedback here.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    To be clear, I'm not talking about the chase before a relationship; I'm talking about the accepted or expected roles once in a relationship. I started the thread because of people on another forum making statements like "men should be the leaders in a relationship", "men like to be the leaders in a relationship", and "men tend to ultimately resent a female who takes the lead in a relationship". This seems awfully simplistic to me, and I think it's probably placing too much emphasis on gender and not enough on personality, so I thought I'd check for feedback here.
    Yes, and I also think this creates unnecessary pressure. I believe in straightforward communication about preferences, necessities, etc. and then making decisions together (or making decisions autonomously if the situation calls for it - you can't agree on everything). I am good at some things, he will be good at other things, so why would anyone need to be the leader by default?

    Come to think of it, I never found men who want to be the leader in a relationship particularly attractive. I don't like to be told what to do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    To be clear, I'm not talking about the chase before a relationship; I'm talking about the accepted or expected roles once in a relationship. I started the thread because of people on another forum making statements like "men should be the leaders in a relationship", "men like to be the leaders in a relationship", and "men tend to ultimately resent a female who takes the lead in a relationship". This seems awfully simplistic to me, and I think it's probably placing too much emphasis on gender and not enough on personality, so I thought I'd check for feedback here.
    This is a good question, but what do you mean by "leaders"? I used to know a married guy with a terrible temper. One day I come over to his house and his wife brings up that they have no place for their new treadmill in the living room so she wants to put it by his jacuzzi. He jumps up and starts yelling at her "I said no! what are you deaf woman?" and swings about like he's about to hit her. She backs away from him "ok honey, we won't place it there". I drop by their place a few weeks later. The treadmill is standing by his jacuzzi. Who is the leader in this relationship?

    Most guys I have known don't like women who act helpless and expect the man to make all decisions for them. They prefer a gal who can firmly stand on her own two feet and be able to support their children if anything happens to her husband.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nevero View Post
    This is a good question, but what do you mean by "leaders"?
    As I've mentioned previously in this thread (on the first page), it seems to vary from person to person.

    I used to know a married guy with a terrible temper. One day I come over to his house and his wife brings up that they have no place for their new treadmill in the living room so she wants to put it by his jacuzzi. He jumps up and starts yelling at her "I said no! what are you deaf woman?" and swings about like he's about to hit her. She backs away from him "ok honey, we won't place it there". I drop by their place a few weeks later. The treadmill is standing by his jacuzzi. Who is the leader in this relationship?
    Well, first of all, I feel bad for the woman. Looks like she has some splendid passive rebellion going, though, if that's a typical situation in the house. It sounds like she has the power in the relationship (again, if this is typical). I personally would have difficulty calling her the "leader", though, even if the man clearly doesn't fit the part either. To me, "leading" is a bit more overt than that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    I remember reading an interview with a Russian woman who ran a coaching college for young women who wanted to marry CEOs and so on (I think she referred to them as "real" or "quality" men, who have money and power). The advice was basically - become the stereotype of an IEI. Be emotionally changeable, cry for no reason, ask for cake then when he brings it, tell him you don't feel like it anymore (do this sort of shit twice a week), drop stuff on the ground and let him help you pick it up, talk about how you have strong intuitions about stuff, be submissive, if he asks you to make a decision, coyly redirect it so he ends up making the final choice etc. I suppose in Russia there might be an overrepresentation of SLEs in powerful positions, so it could conceivably work...

    Have you seen Blue Jasmine? Seemed like an American version of this to me, with Alec Baldwin and Cate Blanchett representing the SLE-IEI power couple that inevitably blows up all over everyone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by octo View Post
    ask for cake then when he brings it, tell him you don't feel like it anymore (do this sort of shit twice a week)
    lol

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    what does it even mean to take the lead in the relationship? being responsible for major decisions like where to live? i guess i'm more stereotypical as far as that stuff is concerned because i usually don't have a very strong opinion unless i can see it having an obvious negative effect. and if the guy just goes ahead its easy to be lazy and go along with it if i don't have a problem, even if it might be better sometimes to inject myself just for the sake of having a voice.

    i was noticing the other day how a few women who seem really independent and like they wear the pants in their relationships were dropping hints on facebook about marriage like posting weddings rings and stuff and how that seems to be sort of a last taboo, like women to some degree can get away with asking guys out or initiating sex but proposals...no. but then marriage is usually seen as like a gift that men begrudgingly give to women.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    what does it even mean to take the lead in the relationship?
    To be quite honest, it seems to vary from person to person. Some see it as having the last say or being the ultimate authority in a relationship. Others see it as who brings home more money. And there are probably more views than that.
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    i only have one real LTR to draw experience from. with an SLI. umm. it was a struggle. with remodeling the house, for example, he'd single-handedly decide on a room and i wouldn't want him to start on that room until he was finished with the room he was doing before. but he'd have his reasons and then he'd ask me to pick out some paint trying to appease me because he was letting me "get involved." he naturally took the lead on things and i didn't mind enough of the time so that he basically could do so.... but that fucked it up for the times that i did mind because it set a precedent for him just making all the decisions. ideally i would like something with more equality than that, but i also just don't care enough to invest myself in everything. i guess i just wanted him to listen to my input and finish the first room to begin with so i don't mind taking more of a support role as long as i'm actually listened to, lol.

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    it's rarely ever so simple as having a designated leader and explicitly being told what to do. i think in most relationships there's an understanding that decisions and responsibilities are shared but things get muddy and conflicts arise surrounding power imbalances anyway.

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    I would stay far, far away from anyone who displayed any sort of tendency towards wanting that kind of power over another person. I realize I'm reacting quite strongly because of childhood experiences but I honestly don't see how it would ever be a healthy or desirable attitude even at more moderate levels. What sort of relationship would it be anyway if one person demanded final authority and power? Not any kind of equal partnership at least. Anyway, I thought we got rid of this sort of attitude 100 years ago. :-/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zola View Post
    Anyway, I thought we got rid of this sort of attitude 100 years ago. :-/
    I'm guessing you haven't been in many churches. The concept of the man having the final say and being the ultimate authority is definitely alive and well.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    I'm guessing you haven't been in many churches. The concept of the man having the final say and being the ultimate authority is definitely alive and well.
    I grew up in a church (father was a pastor), that's part of the reason I'm so allergic to that kind of attitude. I live in a secular country where few people go to church and the church I grew up in was fairly small and considered fringe, but it's larger in other parts of the world, makes it easy to think that kind of attitude is rare I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zola View Post
    I grew up in a church (father was a pastor), that's part of the reason I'm so allergic to that kind of attitude. I live in a secular country where few people go to church and the church I grew up in was fairly small and considered fringe, but it's larger in other parts of the world, makes it easy to think that kind of attitude is rare I guess.
    OK. I understand that. My stepfather is pretty overbearing and fixated on his authority as given to him by God, which is part of why I'm so averse to the idea myself. (That, and I really hate being hemmed in by someone else's authority.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    OK. I understand that. My stepfather is pretty overbearing and fixated on his authority as given to him by God, which is part of why I'm so averse to the idea myself. (That, and I really hate being hemmed in by someone else's authority.)
    Mine still has some extreme views but has mellowed considerably since I grew up, to the point that he had no issues with me and my sisters living with men outside of marriage. That would not have been remotely possible when I was 16 and I remember how it used to be very well and don't want to get into anything remotely like it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    I'm guessing you haven't been in many churches. The concept of the man having the final say and being the ultimate authority is definitely alive and well.
    I'm Christian, so I know that passage in the Bible, Ephesians 5. But I think it's mostly misinterpreted. Many men only like to read the first verses saying:

    "22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

    But it goes on, which is kind of interesting:

    "25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..."

    If you really follow these words, it doesn't mean that the man just does whatever he wants to do, but he actually has to be self-sacrificing and humble. I suppose, if a man is able to love you in that kind of way, it's alright to follow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    I'm Christian, so I know that passage in the Bible, Ephesians 5. But I think it's mostly misinterpreted. Many men only like to read the first verses saying:

    "22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

    But it goes on, which is kind of interesting:

    "25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..."

    If you really follow these words, it doesn't mean that the man just does whatever he wants to do, but he actually has to be self-sacrificing and humble. I suppose, if a man is able to love you in that kind of way, it's alright to follow.
    Maybe, but she still has to submit to his will. If he makes a bad decision which he interprets as a good one, she has to follow his lead even if she know it is not a good way to go.
    Last edited by Kim; 11-05-2013 at 07:41 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    Maybe, but she still has to submit to his will. If he makes a bad decision which he interprets as a good one, she has to follow his lead even if she know it is not a good way to go.
    Yes, but the real Christian of course has to pray and listen to what God says. xD And maybe God's answer appears through the voice of female intuition.
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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    I'm Christian, so I know that passage in the Bible, Ephesians 5. But I think it's mostly misinterpreted. Many men only like to read the first verses saying:

    "22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

    But it goes on, which is kind of interesting:

    "25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..."

    If you really follow these words, it doesn't mean that the man just does whatever he wants to do, but he actually has to be self-sacrificing and humble. I suppose, if a man is able to love you in that kind of way, it's alright to follow.
    Sorry I have OCD about symmetry. It's kinda of my affliction... mental illness you know... these passages are very unsymmetrical, so I think it needs to be altered... God will forgive me...

    "22 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..."
    "23 Husbands, love your husband, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for him..."
    "24 Wives, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave herself up for her..."
    "25 Wives, love your husband, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..."

    It's symmetrical now, I got rid of the offending passages... God bless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kadda1212 View Post
    I'm Christian, so I know that passage in the Bible, Ephesians 5. But I think it's mostly misinterpreted. Many men only like to read the first verses saying:

    "22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything."

    But it goes on, which is kind of interesting:

    "25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her..."

    If you really follow these words, it doesn't mean that the man just does whatever he wants to do, but he actually has to be self-sacrificing and humble. I suppose, if a man is able to love you in that kind of way, it's alright to follow.
    1.) My parents are Christians, and my mom insists that she obeys my dad, but it's really obvious that it's she who's actually dominant in their relationship.

    2.) This sort of thing is a big part of the reason I began seriously questioning the religious teachings I was raised to believe, and I ultimately decided not to take the Bible literally. I don't believe in a deity, and I believe that any truth that's there must be taken in context to the time and culture for which it was originally written.

    3.) Deep rage and resentment over this is also a big part of the reason I ended up in several relationships in a row (totaling 10+ years) where the guy either didn't have a steady income or didn't have any at all. My 20's were really rough.

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    pretending it's not an issue doesn't mean it isn't....
    there's no such thing as perfect 50/50 in anything about relationships

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    pretending it's not an issue doesn't mean it isn't....
    there's no such thing as perfect 50/50 in anything about relationships
    That's true, it's more the desire for power over another person that bothers me than who actually makes the decisions. In reality I'm fairly easy going and if I don't have an opinion or only have a weak opinion I'll go along with what someone else wants rather than try to come up with an alternative. On the other hand I've ended friendships with people who've shown disregard for my opinions/wishes or who have had an attitude of 'well, I want this, so this is what we're going to do.'

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    Making lesser decisions than one's partner doesn't mean the person has less power in the relationship, I think. I wouldn't mind my partner making more decisions. Of course it's not exactly easy for me cos I'm a control freak. (Bound to make a disaster cos all relationships I've had were with 8s lol) I learned a long time ago that I have to let go of my imaginary authority to shove my perfectionism into other people's throat. And it didn't took my 'power' away in relationships.

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