ENFjs/EIEs and using people
Something i wanted to share:
So I just had an EIE confess to me today,
"yeah, I'm really good at spotting peoples' weaknesses, then fixing them for the person so that the person owes me. No one seems to care when I help them, so I keep doing it." *shrugs*
I said, "hmm, and that's why i refuse all your god damn help!"
"yeah..."
hmm, I wonder if the same applies to ENTj's...
I'm good at spotting weaknesses and advising people, but I can't say I've ever done it with the intention of making a person owe me. That seems a bit strange.
LIEs don't do it to make people indebted. (Like they'd care about that.) Mostly they just want their points stand imo. No ulterior motives.
EIEs do seem to value owing as an evidence of good intentions and wills around them. That's not a bad thing. They're generally so nice and wonderfully helpful to many people it's only reasonable and fair for them to have a sense of debts they pass onto others. It kinda messes with my Fi-dominated head though.
I know that kind of behaviour from my grandma. But I think she's the stereotypical ESE.
If you need her help she's very eager to do everything to help you. If I e.g. missed the last train at 1:30 a.m. and was stuck at the Frankfurt main station I could call her anytime and she would drive there to get me.
She even tries to help me out when there's no need, like cooking food for me.
Now, when she is in need for help, e.g. someone needs to help her with the computer or clean up the attic, it must be done immediately. She is very manipulative when it comes to that. She invites me over to lunch, cooks my favorite food, then asks me if I could retrieve something for her from the attic and when I'm up there she suddenly has a lot of ideas what else can be done, moving and rearranging boxes for whatever reason. And I'm trapped there because she's blocking the ladder.
She thinks the whole family owes her - which is true - and I would be happy to help her in return. But it's nerve-racking.
The only one in my family who seems to be immune against my grandma's manipulation skill's is my SLE uncle. I don't know his secret. Maybe it's just not possible to control him because he's constantly off to far away places like the Himalaya. And whenever he really has to help my grandma he only has to do things he enjoys doing - like chopping wood or working in the garden. :/
Last edited by kadda1212; 10-28-2013 at 10:55 AM.
Love is like an energy, rushing in, rushing inside of me...
I read an article on SLE EIE activation, somewhere on this website. It says that SLE's emotions are immovable. in my experience, my mind gets irritated but my body doesn't. Idunno, its hard to explain. When people manipulate me it makes me feel like I'm a waterbed and they are pushing it to no avail. On a mental level I can defend myself immediately, but in person I almost never defend myself or even realize my feelings are affected until 30 minutes later.Originally Posted by kadda1212
ESTj's have often told me that "I don't care," in the most general sense possible. To me, I genuinely don't care about THEM the way they want me to. EIE's get visibly frustrated that they can't get me to worship them with praise, and ESE, not sure. My ESE 8w7 uncle tries to get me radiating with enthusiasm but it doesn't really work, and I just end up feeling like I'm disappointing him somehow. *shrug*
I think Fe egos also need people to tell them their judgements so it reaffirms their identity. So I suspect my EIE friend does nice things for people so that they will tell him how helpful and great of a person he is, when ultimately, he knows exactly who he is and he needs to learn to assert that regardless what people say.
Me on the other hand, I'm kind of ass backwards. I already know who I am and more or less ignore what people tell me, but I also tend to experiment with my Fe and learn how to control others' perception of me the way EIE's can.
Same, although I use it against them. No advising, unless you come to me.
Sure you're not confusing Fe-base behavior with E2 behavior?
Not saying those are the only options, but there are many reasons a person might make those sorts of statements.
Every type does manipulate but in their own way. You will notice that there are certain types of manipulation you will not notice or tolerate more than the others too.
Sincerely Yours,
Beyond the clouds. Beyond the sun.
The Rebel without a cause.
I've never really felt like I owed an ENFj anything. Usually, we just talk to each other and have good conversations, if anything. They often make me feel better emotionally when I'm around them, which is good. This especially applies to ones I get along with. Others can be somewhat augmentive or exacting. But the others are pretty nice and laid back.
hmm. Might be type 2 behavior. He could very well be a type 2. Though 3's can be super helpful too.
Yesterday he gave me a piece of chicken out of the fridge, and it happened to be my room mate's. lmao. So when She came down she was pissed that her chicken was gone and he was just like, "Idunno what's going on."
But I can see him simmering with anger when I don't accept his offers. it kinda freaks me out.
TAKE THE PIE YOU FUCKING ASS HOLE
No way I'm buying this.
It's not for sales
Last edited by nigh; 10-30-2013 at 03:06 PM.
My boss is EIE. I don't think he does it so that people owe him. But he's terribly pleased when it works and (unless you're not the receptive kind to this kind of revelation) just bursting to tell you how he had a hand in it. He totally loves mentoring, and especially so when he gets a mentee he can simply lay his cards down and tell the mentee what he did/is doing/will do, although sometimes he will delay the telling until he can tell it at a time where it would make for a better story - it's the EIE love for theatricality. I think that's probably why I'm his favourite; I mean, it's not like much escapes me. I can pretty much see most of his plotting in motion anyway, and can get his big picture.
I am good at spotting waeknesses at people, but I am not very interested in helping them... I dislike to manipulate with others, it's their life not mine, everyone has to figure out who they are for themselves.
I think both EIE and LIE's do this but in different ways, but it's not always super malicious. There are times it can get abusive however.
All 4d Te types know that favors don't come for free. They're very wary of favors and debts as their communication style is business like. Types that don't have the same communication style and are much less explicit about this give and take way of communication and this makes it something that earns distrust. However sincere types are able to get past this distrust and get business-like types less wary.
Most business-like types I find requires a kind of I do this for you, you do this for me communication before trust is established, however, trying to change the terms of the deal results in distrust as well.
As a 4d Te type, the communication differences are going to always create a level of independence between the two of you.
I don't see this as enneagram type behavior, but more communication styles. Passionate types do not explicit express the tit-for-tat mechanics of their favors, cold-blooded types await this and see it as a way to establish relations.
The extroverted types I find all communicate mostly because they are seeking favor, assistance and various social desires, sometimes it's simply for company. But passionate types are much less explicit about this exchange than business-like types. I think the behavior that is in the OP is modus for passionate types, these are outgoing people who often pro-actively do favors for others. It could be anything from one to one favor to creating a big charitable organization. There is always a desire for something in return, but the content is implicit and not explicit. Business-like types tend to view this sort of communication as not trustworthy and tend to be more explicit with their demands.
Yeah it's not true for me. For me, it's a way to work in the "opposite direction" of the OP, namely that I can easily avoid having people thinking that I owe them something and thus can always do my own damn thing. I'm talking about work here: in personal relationships I don't keep the score or w-e.
with ixfx types it's a bit easier to balance the act imho because they seem to naturally care about having a fair distribution of duties. exfx types may actively try to do stuff for you, ixtx types may wait until you explicitly tell them that you want them to do something.
Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit
in general I think most EIEs use people effectively, or appropriately. there's a more objective sense of humanity (in the ethos/pathos/logos sense) that allows them to draw relevant boundaries without becoming too imposing. SLEs actually do this less, for them it's simply about the base energy they feel a person should or can exert, so the one-upping that often occurs between them and EIEs makes sense... with the latter it's about the limits of the interaction itself, and this almost self-objectifying maintenance of continuity that prevents 'improper' behavior/expression, in terms of what people 'deserve.' I've never found it that grating, though some of the E3s have this way of implicitly demeaning people based on theirappraisal of them, which I've had to deal with, and counteract... like I don't want to have you acknowledge it but your boundary is there. they temper IEIs conversely.. you don't have to 'be a part' of things, but you're still here. the 7s and 8s are less about using people as such than eliminating bullshit and inciting/effecting things.
I don't really see a relation between them and LIEs in this respect... the latter generally seems more concerned with efficacy. LSEs would be a better comparison, as they have a sense of how people can 'be useful' that's supposedly predicated on a sense of humanity...
4w3-5w6-8w7
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote