ENTj driving friends and co-workers away

[Creepy-Big Dan]

OK I'm new to this board, so if this topic has been discussed previously, I apologize for not finding it:

I'm a 26 year old ENTJ who's beginning to wonder about everyone around me, and whether or not I'm doing/saying/acting certain ways that would drive people away. I've always been the kind of person who enjoys having lots of friends, and being very friendly with everyone around me. Lately (i.e. last year or so?), it seems like several friends of mine have withdrawn, and there seems to be a negative attitude floating around amongst them towards me, based on tidbits I've heard here and there.

In addition, I've noticed almost during the exact same time frame that my workmates have gone in the same direction. I don't get the interaction from them that I seem to remember having, such as not getting invited to go out to lunch, quiet falls over their conversation when I do approach, etc. When I do talk to them it's almost as if everything is fine, but I can't help but notice or pick up on subtleties that would imply otherwise.

I can't seem to pinpoint an exact event that would have caused this, if it is in fact true, and not just paranoia on my part. My approach with some has been to just directly ask them, but that's not gotten me anywhere, and in a way, may have contributed towards their feelings or conversations towards/about me.

I am a typical ENTJ, very self confident, always in the leadership role, and always more than willing to share my advice to them on personal or business matters. In several cases I've seen it succeed and have helped numerous friends & workmates better themselves as a result of the guidance I have offered. So what's with the seclusion I'm suddenly feeling from them, and how can I approach it or repair it without driving them off further? These aren't just acquaintances, I'm talking long time friends and workmates. Are they worth the trouble (my first reaction is no, but my wife (INFS) disagrees. Thoughts? Help? Recommendations?

Thanks for any and all advice. And please be as blunt as necessary to drive the point home. I'll provide further details without getting too personal if requested. This board is a great resource, just from my past several hours of browsing the forums I've found it very helpful. :wink:

[Earl60861]

Fancy how we all have the same problem. I have used the same techniques Eidos has listed often and they work 95% of the time whenever you follow #4 first.

This is another reason I posted the morality listing, especially the one where I posted "act properly in public". ENTJs have somewhat of a difficult time acting "properly" in public because we have an extreme amount of energy. We're also highly social almost to the point of suffocating others. We come off as arrogant because we sound superior. However, this clearly isn't the case. No one is superior to another in any way. We sound so because we tend to "command" people more than anything, placing ourselves in a leader role whenever possible.

I'm not currently having the same problems you are having with friends, mainly because I "learned" how to act. Mostly now, I've seemingly abandoned my type whenever the conversation doesn't highly interest me. Even then, I'll cut back on immediately responding. In groups, I'm the one sitting nonchalantly while everyone else is arguing. The funny thing is that now whenever I speak, it is like the wise Chinese philosopher speaking his great wisdom. Everyone seems to listen. However I'll admit I do have problems working with the cut back conversation method. I often feel as though I'm not telling all I know and axiety will build up over time from not speaking so long. Further, I do have occasional bursts of "ENTJ-ness" where I'll speak for hours on end and still not finish. This may be why I spend hours a day in forums speaking, because the ENTJ type is highly, highly social. Sort of seems sad that to be accepted you have to be what you aren't. However, with the magic of the Interenet, I can spread the tendency to speak constantly over 200 or so forums and still seem "normal".

Feel free to speak as you will Dan, we are all of the same basic type here in Gamma, so you won't feel criticized because everyone has the "incessant need to speak constantly". Of course, Gamma has been slow lately because we all try to act "normal" even "among our own kind". However, I just take my laissez-faire attitude that it's their problem, not mine. Once you stop caring about how others feel about you, you feel a lot happier.

[Smilingeyes]

Delta sleep is what the brain craves to restore itself from the previous day's activity.

[WVBRY]

I have a tendency to do the same thing to ENTJs and ESTJs. I guess they can be overwhelming because they constantly use and it gets suffocating even for me. It seems like they constantly push their knowledge on others and its intimidating for others to contradict them. And even if we do contradict them, it can be energy consuming to do it over and over. This post sounds like a cry for help with your . ENTJs need help in this area, and dualization helps balance them out, so if you find a dual you could at least get help in this area. I now better understand ENTJs and try not to give them the impression Im running away from them when trying to withdraw from them, im afraid theyd interpret it as cowardliness like "all this stuff Ive done for him and now he wants to withdraw from me? WTF?"I understand that reaction. But I guess they need to understand people's need for independance too, sometimes I feel ENTJs dont get that some people might just want to figure something out on their own or stand on their own two feet. Weak, . Is your inner feelings of sympathy towards others, and if ENTJs dont get help with this, they can try and help others without really putting themselves in that person's shoes, thus giving the impression they lack tact.

And Im sorry your friends are withdrawing from you. I hope things will work out, maybe if you give them some time out theyll get get closer to you again. Other than that im not sure what kind of advicve to give you. Good luck. :wink:

[Creepy-]

In a nutshell, I would say that ENTJ's (especially the males) have a bad problem with looking down their nose at everyone. They are the classic "Know It All". They assume that they are correct (about everything)
from the very beginning, and must be proved (argued) wrong. Anyone who is intellectually honest knows that no one can really know it all, therefore it is totally illogical to take such a position.

Not many people I know would care to waste their time trying to convince some arrogant, incorrigable ENTJ that they are wrong. It is more efficient and productive for them to let the ENTJ have their delusions of correctness, distance themselves, and let the school of hard knocks do the rest. I have had to take this course many times with ENTJ's that I have known.

This same arrogance, or "superiority complex", tends to make them want to try to categorize and systemize (control) everything and everyone they come in contact with. In my dealings with them, I have often been
made to feel as though I was merely some object, not an individual with any intellectual merit.

Another problem is manipulation. An ENTJ that I've known for years told me that "if you want to get people into your system, you have to manipulate them with things that they like". He has done this to all kinds of unsuspecting people for years,and these people think that he actually cares about them and can relate to their needs. He cares about them, but not for the reasons that they think. In reality, he is only after
their time, their money or their contacts. Humor, and the other tactics described previously, will work until people understand you are not sincere and only doing it to manipulate and control them. Once they
figure it out, they will shun you and rightly so. This isn't what true friendships are made of.

This same ENTJ complains that since he gives of himself to others all the time, and they may have enjoyed some success from his advice, people have no right or reason to criticize him for anything. He couldn't be
more wrong. Just because he gave someone advice and it worked, doesn't mean he has a license to be arrogant and put himself above ever doing anything wrong. Furthermore, there is no reason to believe that the next
time he gives advice, success will occur.

When others try to tell him there is a problem, they are met with a fierce argument of "this isn't my fault", not a humble attitude of "maybe I'm wrong". As mentioned before, he is always correct and to change
his position you must win the argument. Honestly, who would care? Any competant person knows that no one ever really "wins" an argument anyway. Even if your position prevails, you have suceeded in humiliating the other person by making them lose face, but you haven't necessarily changed their mind. Not exactly what I would call a smart strategy. But then again, I'm not an ENTJ.

My advice would be to learn how to sincerely value others with humility and mutual respect, not look down at them with the idea that they are incompetant and constantly in need of correction or organization.

Don't manipulate. Be sincere. If you aren't sincere about what you are doing or saying, then don't do it as it will only cause people to not trust you.

If you give people advice and it works, don't give yourself credit for it or demand recognition, let them "give" you credit for it when they are ready. Anyone can give good advice from time to time, not just
ENTJ's. Besides, if you are in the position to give yourself credit, you don't need any.

Try sharing the leadership role. It's best if the same person isn't always in power, else others think of you as a tyrant.

You might also read this article
http://www.staubleadership.com/article4.lasso

[Eidos]

Another problem is manipulation. An ENTJ that I've known for years told me that "if you want to get people into your system, you have to manipulate them with things that they like". He has done this to all kinds of unsuspecting people for years,and these people think that he actually cares about them and can relate to their needs. He cares about them, but not for the reasons that they think. In reality, he is only after
their time, their money or their contacts. Humor, and the other tactics described previously, will work until people understand you are not sincere and only doing it to manipulate and control them. Once they
figure it out, they will shun you and rightly so. This isn't what true friendships are made of.

I'm sorry but ENTj's do not manipulate, at least I never do and the 5 others I know don't either + the ones on this board probably don't. ENTj's are too blunt and speak their mind too quickly. You can't generalize to all ENTj's based on ONE ENTj that you know.

[Smilingeyes]

Another problem is manipulation. An ENTJ that I've known for years told me that "if you want to get people into your system, you have to manipulate them with things that they like". He has done this to all kinds of unsuspecting people for years,

I'm sorry but ENTj's do not manipulate, at least I never do and the 5 others I know don't either + the ones on this board probably don't. ENTj's are too blunt and speak their mind too quickly. You can't generalize to all ENTj's based on ONE ENTj that you know.

I don't believe his comments for a minute either. IPs are the most astute manipulators and he's just projecting himself to the actions of others. Now on the other hand... I have suggested to others that manipulating people is an effective way to get friends, power and influence, but that's pretty much the point. How bloody good a manipulator can a person be, if he advertises manipulating? Besides, manipulating people is a short term answer, which means Si, and Fe.

I usually analyse politics with an INTP who likes the amount of analysis I can bring to the table but scoffs at my actual political ability. He tells me I'm too soft and more an artist than a politician.

Your posts were right on the mark, Eidos.

- Smilex

[DSA4130]

I agree with the last couple of posts. Categorizing all ENTJ's as manipulators based off of one example is a little biased. Several of those comments ring true, and I can admit to sounding arrogant or haughty at times when discussing topics where I feel more knowledgeable. This has been pointed out to me and as a result I'm actively working on 'toning down' my need to discuss business (or turn things into business) at all times with friends.

I recently asked my wife from her perspective what she might perceive as things that I could do differently when we’re socializing with others. Her reply: "You talk business all the time with everyone. Sometimes you go non-stop on how they could do this or do that, and it seems a little overwhelming."

So I tried an experiment. We went out to dinner on a Friday night with a few of our good friends. I was determined going in to the night NOT to bring up business, just to talk about social things, have a good time, etc. 3 TIMES during the course of the evening (twice at the dinner table and once later) the others asked me direct questions on business related themes they were thinking of, and how they might go somewhere with it. I would answer their questions briefly, and directly, then try to switch subjects to something off-topic, yet they kept coming back up. It was exasperating trying NOT to be myself and discuss something that I really wanted to run with.

I'm an ENTJ, and I do have a good circle of friends. From the original post, I can relate to having run some of them off, and probably some for reasons the 'guest' poster listed. I do realize though that my 'true friends' are the ones who realize and appreciate who I am, and accept the 'good' with the 'bad'. If I had to completely abandon who I am to gain or keep a friendship with a person, then are they really worth befriending? That’s probably an arrogant viewpoint, but I know I’m willing to overlook ‘bad’ qualities from many of my friends, so can’t I expect the same?

[WVBRY]

I'm not sure about the last advice. I suspect the last person was INFP/INTP (they LOVE criticizing ENTj's whenever they can - it makes them feel better about themselves )

Sharing the leadership role? I mean It's a tough world out there. You have to be strong and take challenges head on. ENTj's are great at that. Basically the "guest" is asking ENTj's to stop being ENTj's and behave like... INxP's. He's asking ENTj's to stop being strong. I believe ENTj's should not listen to this advice.

With all good comes some bad. We have the positive aspects of our faults. There is no "perfect" personality. You have to be willing to compromise certain things for others.

The ENTj qualites of enthusiasm & decisivenes, might come off terribly annoying to some people in a conversation. People who haven't got the same strength and energy as the ENTj might get tired with him. Yet, if the ENTj adapts and starts being "mellow, considerate, etc". not only will he lose the first 2 qualities temporarily, but other people will have more power over him.

A Leader, by definition, will be someone trying to "force down" his views about things. He will be someone who has to be decisive. He has to KNOW what to do and be SURE about it. No self-doubt. You see, ENTj's are people of ACTION - they want to get things done. They don't just sit for hours and think about things that have no practical use, and that will bring them nowhere - just to arrive to "logic". They have a practical mind. "Will it work?". This, naturally, comes at the expense of other attitudes. But it's the price to pay.

I'd say ENTj's should never lose sight of their strengths. They shouldn't start changing themselves too much for other people. We only have one life. There are lots of people who will appreciate the ENTj for what he is and what he has to offer. I think ENTj's should choose those people well. Or as Smilingeyes said, have a large circle of friends who don't expect too much from him. ENTj's are very principled people that can be counted on. Alot of people value highly this quality. They shouldn't waste time with people who won't appreciate them.

I agree with you that ENTJs should not have to change their leadership oriented personality and that you shouldnt be ashamed of who you are and whatnot . And that many people do appreciate and need the ENTJs leadership.

But I still think ENTJs could listen to the poster above you. Ive been made to feel like I was just an object by some ENTJs. They just sledge hammer orders like a machine without considering more about subtle aspects of a person's well being(avoidance of ). I dont mean to criticisize you, so dont take it that way. But im being honest here: ENTJs can be inconsiderate to other human beings, treating them like objects to acheive their objectives- or at least this is the impression they give, if they dont have a dual near them. Why? The ENTJs' hidden agenda is which means ENTJs have a strong desire to physically dominate their environment. However if they aerent conscious of the hidden agenda's source ( ), they cant physically dominate their environment very well because the people they try to lead are made to feel like objects to acheive to some material goal. ENTJs are more conscious of and and will associate with using these functions, which is why they give orders often without any appearence of compassion and humanity. In reality they simply cant identify in themselves, except for their desire to help others which gives it away. Dualization helps them dominate their environment in a more caring, compassionate manner.

PS: Eidos Im sorry I was rude to you on the astrology thread.

[Smilingeyes]

Cheer, It's always a pleasure to read your astute posts. Your analysis and advice was very good. Thank you.

-Smilex

[WVBRY]

Cheer, It's always a pleasure to read your astute posts. Your analysis and advice was very good. Thank you.

-Smilex

thanks smilex :wink:

[DSA4130]

Agreed Cheerio, I appreciate seeing someone else's viewpoint and you've given some great advice. Thanks!

[Eidos]

I agree with you that ENTJs should not have to change their leadership oriented personality and that you shouldnt be ashamed of who you are and whatnot . And that many people do appreciate and need the ENTJs leadership.

But I still think ENTJs could listen to the poster above you. Ive been made to feel like I was just an object by some ENTJs. They just sledge hammer orders like a machine without considering more about subtle aspects of a person's well being(avoidance of ). I dont mean to criticisize you, so dont take it that way. But im being honest here: ENTJs can be inconsiderate to other human beings, treating them like objects to acheive their objectives- or at least this is the impression they give, if they dont have a dual near them. Why? The ENTJs' hidden agenda is which means ENTJs have a strong desire to physically dominate their environment. However if they aerent conscious of the hidden agenda's source ( ), they cant physically dominate their environment very well because the people they try to lead are made to feel like objects to acheive to some material goal. ENTJs are more conscious of and and will associate with using these functions, which is why they give orders often without any appearence of compassion and humanity. In reality they simply cant identify in themselves, except for their desire to help others which gives it away. Dualization helps them dominate their environment in a more caring, compassionate manner.

PS: Eidos Im sorry I was rude to you on the astrology thread.

Ok Good point and well said!

And about the astrology thread, thanks for apologizing I appreciate that alot it's very good of you

Cheers mate!

Eidos.

[Eidos]

I usually analyse politics with an INTP who likes the amount of analysis I can bring to the table but scoffs at my actual political ability. He tells me I'm too soft and more an artist than a politician.

Your posts were right on the mark, Eidos.

- Smilex

Thanks man, that's much appreciated, especially coming from yourself. I highly value your posts.

And, yeah, the INTp I know also thinks I'm too soft about politics

Eidos.

[SFVB]

I'm writing this because, as I've posted elsewhere, I very much enjoy the ENTj-INTj balance that this particular contrary relationship provides. So, as I've seen the "paranoia" factor mentioned numerous times on this thread, I thought maybe seeing where it stems from on a functional level may be useful. (I need to add that I'm an INTj).

Conscious - Te (Extraverted Thinking - Practical Logic)

This is the ENTj's strongest conscious function, and the one that is a constant presence in all interactions with this type. "Te" is about applying knowledge, and ENTjs know how to do this well. Of course, this also means that ENTjs have a very strong memory for factual information and figures, usually making them good with numbers. They love to show off their knowledge as well, giving certain types (ISFps and INFps namely) the impression that the ENTj believes they "know it all." Of course ENTjs know very well that there is always more to learn, and they are avid readers of everything and anything that takes their interest. Despite the ENTj's seeming arrogance about their knowledge base, they are very selfless when it comes to sharing their knowledge with others. This fact attracts ENFps, ESFps, ISFjs, and INFjs, who love to know things, but are often hard pressed to know where to find the information they are seeking. Therefore, ENTjs are likely to find themselves in close relationships with these types, boggling those out of the know as to why the ENTj would want to date someone who seemingly lacks their level of intelligence.

Conscious - Ni (Introverted Intuition - Intuition of Time)

I need to begin this part by saying that I only use "intuition of time" for lack of a better term. Introverted intuition is actually more like "intuition of the balance between intangible forces in the universe and the patterns that subsequently develop from those imbalances." Sounds deep, and it is. This is the ENTj's sporadic area of creativity, and they believe in trying to bring those forces into balance. This gives the ENTj their "visionary" quality, in that they truly believe that the eternal battle between good and evil exists. Which side they choose to fight on depends quite a bit on their life experience and various other unpredictable factors, but nonetheless, they are always on one side or the other. They make superior leaders because of this fact, as those that follow them truly believe that the ENTj believes in what they are saying. However, ENTjs often run into problems, as their intuition is subjective, and therefore they need a strong boundary in which to make sense of the forces (this gets a little tricky, but essentially think of it this way..."Extraverted Intuition" is like a large painting. Within that painting there are smaller paintings that are put together (intorverted intuition) in order to create a relationship leading to the original whole painting. ENTj's are able to see the relationships between the smaller paintings, but without seeing the whole picture first (which they cannot do on their own) the meaning of the smaller pictures has the risk of being inaccurate or simply wrong). This is why ENTjs often find themselves in tricky ethical situations unintentionally as they are incapable of providing the "big picture" perspective themselves, and need something or someone to provide it for them, which can lead to obvious problems. This, as if knowing this about themselves, makes them somewhat skeptical of unestablished perspectives or ideas.

Conscious -Fe (Extraverted Feeling - Ethics of Emotions)

Once again I don't like the terminology, but it will have to do for now. This is essentially the ENTj's ability to show objective emotions...happiness, sadness, anger, etc....They can do this, but it is not their strong area, as it is developed in spite of their preferred function, Te. This makes ENTjs a little over the top when it comes to their emotions. They have trouble finding the right approach with their outward emotions, which results in them being either too much or too little. This also means that when their emotions take over (which is somewhat infrequent), they have trouble controlling them. This results in them becoming angry very easily in times of high stress, and even violent. ENTjs are not adverse to using their fists to solve problems when words have failed.

Conscious - Si (Introverted Sensing - Static Sensing)

I'm pretty lukewarm about this term as well, so here's what it means. Your five senses all interact with one another all the time. When you eat, your nose, eyes, and taste buds work together, etc... so, think of Si like a sensory version of Ni. This gives the ability to relate sensory information, as oppossed to intangible forces. ENTjs, in a word, are not good at this. They have great difficulty in appreciating complicated sensory inputs on their own, but this does not mean they won't try to an extent. They will spend a lot of time looking at different color schemes, or trying different wines in an attempt to understand what all the fuss is about, but unfortunately for the ENTj, they can't really tell the difference unless it is REALLY obvious. For instance, ask an ENTj to taste a wine they've never heard of or tasted before and stick an ISFp in the room with them, and you will see the rare moment in which the ENTj is made to look the fool. Therefore, appreciating aesthetics on their own is something that they either painstakingly make the effort to learn (through reading what other people think is good and bad), or completely ignore it alltogether. The latter choice can result in some laughable choices in wardwrobe among other things. This is not a point that ENTjs like to be criticized on, which results in the ENTj-ISFp conflicting relationship being (probably) the most openly hostile and quick to turn bad of all conflicting relationships.

Subconscious - Ti (Intorverted Thinking - Theoretical Logic)

This is the ENTj's strongest subconscious function, and it acts as a resevoir for theories and new ideas that they have come across. However, unlike an INTj who will often hold onto impractical theories simply for their ownsake, the ENTj quickly discards those he doesn't find useful for practical application. It can be said that the ENTj is the type that can turn "fiction into fact," as they are very able to take an untested unproven theory and turn it into common knowledge. Most people will simply take them at their word as their overall knowledge is rarely surpassed. However, this can run the ENTj into trouble as inaccurate theories or incomplete ideas will leave them with false applications that will either damage their reputation over the long run, or even harm others. This fact adds to their natural skepticism towards new ideas, although many ENTjs through a desire to "accomplish" ignore their nagging suspicions and run with the idea. However, when they take the time to question and prod they are masters at deciding whether a theory is true or false, even with comparatively little information (remember, ENTjs are often the ones who PROVE theories, and therefore need to be able to do this with little research and information).

Subconscious - Ne (Extraverted Intuition - Intuition of possibilities)

Suprisingly...not hot on the name. But, essentially this functions in the same way as the Te-Ti relationship works in that Ne supplies Ni with the boundaries in which to evaluate the relationships between intangible forces and bring balance. An accurate picture is good, inaccurate, bad.

Subconscious - Fi (Introverted Feeling - Ethics of Relationships)

This is the ENTj's "love button" so to speak. They are attracted to those that are moody and emotionally complex. Simple love for them, such as that which may be shown by an ESFj seems superficial and meaningless. They like depth in the emotions that others have towards them, and they will go to great lengths to make others like or love them. This explains their attraction to the terminally moody types that they go for on a regular basis. ESFps, ISFjs, INFjs, all provide that perceived depth of emotion that the ENTj needs in order to feel sufficiently satisifed that they AFFECT the person emotionally and deeply. However, they have a tough time with types that do not demonstrate evidence of their feelings as they cannot read people's emotional states very well at all. This leads to a difficulty in knowing how others feel about them and what the relationship is between them and the other person....Do they love me, do they hate me, are they indifferent to me, etc...This makes them wary of any shift in the moods of those around them, as they perceive the moodshift to be as a result of them. This is not arrogance, but rather insecurity with the fact that they never truly know how another person feels about them, except with their dual (the ISFj). This results in mistrust of the person or an attempt at winning their favor. Both often fail, which can often escalate the problem to a new level. For ENTjs, it is best to surround themselves with business associates they KNOW they can trust, and social friends who make an effort to show (not through words) that they care about the ENTj.

Subconscious - Se (Extraverted Sensing - Dynamic Sensing)

This is all about the physical big picture as opposed to the intuitive one. For example, an Army is a force. The elements and relationships within that army are perceived by Si, but the end result is the army itself, Se. ENTjs NEED to feel physically powerful. How they do that varies, but it very often involves strenous intense body building, mastering a martial art etc... The end result is that the ENTj has a healthy input of physical strength. Of course, physical power can come in other forms as well, and the ENTj realizes this quite early in life. Much like the hedonistic tendencies of INTjs when it comes to sensory input, the ENTj is a hedonist of power. Everything and anything that can make them feel physically powerful, cars, armies, etc....will suffice. ENTjs will often "take what they can get" on this issue, making their interests due to this motive vary widely from type to type. Money, of course, is another element by which to achieve power, but it is a means to an end. This desire for all things powerful is also a factor in their selection of a mate. The ISFj, with their powerful demeanor and usual athleticism offers the ENTj a companion who provides an intermittent, but frequent enough aura of power. This, without going into too much detail, also translates into the bedroom. But, as with all types, the ENTj will often put themselves in a situation in which their power is put at risk. They will become overly paranoid about losing their power, therefore creating lots of perceived enemies, as they, like all types, assume that others value the same things they do. This will alienate those that put the ENTj in power in the first place, and unfortunately for the ENTj, they are easily removed from power, as they are not capable of the ruthless behavior required to maintain power in the way that an ESTp or an ISTj is capable of.

Hope that is helpful. Feel free to comment, as I'm always revising and adapting as needed and any insight on this from an actual ENTj would be greatly appreciated. (I apologize in advance for all typos as I didn't see the need to proof read.)

[Eidos]

gdfgdh

[DSA4130]

Agreed w/ Eidos, this is a fairly accurate summary of me...

Conscious - Te (Extraverted Thinking - Practical Logic)
giving certain types (ISFps and INFps namely) the impression that the ENTj believes they "know it all."

I'm working on this one. My wife (ISFJ) now gives me 'signals' if she feels that I'm coming across that way. :wink:

Conscious - Ni (Introverted Intuition - Intuition of Time)
This is why ENTjs often find themselves in tricky ethical situations unintentionally as they are incapable of providing the "big picture" perspective themselves, and need something or someone to provide it for them, which can lead to obvious problems. This, as if knowing this about themselves, makes them somewhat skeptical of unestablished perspectives or ideas.

I agree with most of this - however this is a trait that can be 'unlearned' in specific applications. For instance - I once spent several months developing a business plan using your 'small pictures' method, piece by piece, and when it was completed and ready to roll, I saw that the 'big picture' wasn't going to be as profitable as what the financial data and indicators made it seem. So lesson learned there, from that point on any serious development or planning on a business level, the first step I take is making a serious evaluation of whether or not it's going to be cost effective or profitable, before going in to all the 'leg work', so to speak. It's helped me save lots of time and $$$, all due to that initial instance.

Conscious -Fe (Extraverted Feeling - Ethics of Emotions)
becoming angry very easily in times of high stress

Sadly this is true. It's been referred to as the Incredible Hulk syndrome by friends of mine growing up. As I've gotten older I've come to find myself avoiding situations that could lead me to do this as much as possible. There are certain busy highways /times of day I'll avoid completely due to incidents of 'road rage'. Scary how quickly I can go from winding down after a long day at the office, to ready to explode over a rude driver cutting me off, etc. Fortunately my awareness of this and a couple of embarrasing incidents have helped me get it (mostly) under control, although I still have to actively work at it.

Conscious - Si (Introverted Sensing - Static Sensing)

Agreed 100% on this one. I've 'painstakingly' tried to appreciate wine (one person considering opening a wine & cheese bar asked for my help developing their biz plan...what a nightmare ). With the clothing, Eidos summed up my feelings for clothes shopping. Now, if I go shopping by myself, I'll usually buy whatever is seen on the manequins (or off a picture in GQ), as I know it goes together, or there will be a saleswoman in tow picking things out for me. Otherwise my wife dresses me, and she does such a good job that I'll leave it up to her

Subconscious - Ti (Intorverted Thinking - Theoretical Logic)
However, when they take the time to question and prod they are masters at deciding whether a theory is true or false, even with comparatively little information

As stated above, this has given me a great sense of accomplishment, and has helped me make many wise business decisions. Taking that step back and asking questions, rather than just running with it off the cuff, can make our types almost invincible when it comes to making a plan work.

Subconscious - Fi (Introverted Feeling - Ethics of Relationships)
Do they love me, do they hate me, are they indifferent to me, etc...This makes them wary of any shift in the moods of those around them, as they perceive the moodshift to be as a result of them.

This is a great statement, so very true. My wife has had to tell me on many occassions that 'their mood doesn't always have to do with something you said or did'. I can't help it though, it's easy to tell myself that, but hard to dismiss.


Subconscious - Se (Extraverted Sensing - Dynamic Sensing)
This will alienate those that put the ENTj in power in the first place, and unfortunately for the ENTj, they are easily removed from power, as they are not capable of the ruthless behavior required to maintain power

I would submit that this is something they can learn. Initially I agree that the ruthless behavior doesn't come naturally, although applying the Fe tendency towards anger (when controlled) can cause them to act pretty ruthlessly (speaking from experience? ) when they percieve that their top spot is on the line...

There's my $.02, as Eidos stated you've got a very accurate description going. Thanks for the valuable insight!

[SFVB]

Thanks for the remarks guys. I've been around a lot of ENTjs, most of which I have developed good friendships with. It's especially important to understand their motivations, as they are almost always trying to build and contruct in the name of progress and humanity's benefit. This is an ENTj at their best.

[Earl60861]

100% right and spot on for me Wink Darn, as a kid I was a hopeless romantic. Really. I'd fall in love with these overly complicated girls that never knew what they wanted. It would drive me mad! One of them, she was sooo complicated. She seemed to really like me, but was unsure. So I was just cracking jokes all the time and trying to make her laugh. I went to her and said "Look, I'm in love with you". And she didn't believe me... So I decided to make up with her at that moment. Hahaha Smile The next day she dumped me because "I was treating her like an object" Shocked Another time I had this relationship with a girl that was platonic in the beginning. She was an IxFJ. Darn, she liked to be pursued! I really had to insist for us to finally make out. It was all ups and downs after. I've found out that the girls I've ended up as a kid were always extremely ambivalent - showing strong emotions one day, retreating the other... push/pull... they wanted to resist me yet when I'd go away they would come back nearly "crawling" and asking me "please don't let me down!". Finally I found a nice ISFJ, and although she's complicated and moody, it's been going ok since a long time now.

Actually Eidos, what that would be is what I describe as a lodb. You were right to tell her that, and since she essentially rejected you, it didn't surprise me what you said one sentence later. Also, the "push/pull" mentality is common, but undesired. Female forms use it because they like to feel needed. Technically it all derives from the chauvinistic mentality that prevailecd for approximately 5 millenia, where female forms were often ignored until the desire came. However, this is something for another argument. Basically, however, back in the "day" (caveman era through to pre-modern times (say the 1800s), female forms realized that they had control over male forms based on their own form. Because of the afformentioned chauvinistic mentality towards women, it was their way to control men, secretly. They realized that once male forms became attracted to female forms, they must have as much time as possible with them (it all ties in with pheramones and chemical properties thereof). Anyway, the "push/pull" relationship is essentially her manipulating you because she knows you'd be unwilling to be without her for an extended period of time. However, she realized later that you would be willing, and that she became dependant on you (for the pheremonical secretions of your presance).

Alternately, without getting into the immensive (and almost completely still unknown) processes of the human brain and the chemical processes influincing it daily, you could just reason that she was a "drama queen", and needed the constant desire created by constant breaking up and re-joining to fuel her (rather insane) desires. The fact that you had to "insist for us to finally make out", means that she really wanted it to remain platonic. Also, it means that you set the precedent of constantly persuing her. This connects to the above mentioned statements.

Overall, I'd say they were pretty much lodbs, unworthy of my time. Anyone who would be like that to me would be immediately discarded (for lack of a better word), simply because there are 6.1 billion people in the world, and assuming that 50% are female and (because of the constant reminders by homosexuals, I have to compute this) of those 50%, roughly 70% would be straight. That makes 2.3 billion female forms for me to be with. Of that, we'll separate folks from foreign countries, where the possibility of me meeting them is less than 1% (since I don't travel and have no desire to, so I'd have to meet foreign people by the airport. If I did that, I'd be very desparate, and would possibly find myself depressed), so eliminating them, we'll go with the fairly accepted standard of 30 million Americans. Using the same 50, 75 calculations, we come up with roughly 11.25 million female forms. Of that, we can safely eliminate about 10 million based on the fact that I'm not going to travel domestically, hitting ever bar (or any other social event I'd find) in America. Still 1.25 million female forms who may or may not be interested in me is still far superior to the one who wants to drag me around like a mound of dirt just to satisfy her whims.

PS Eidos, 7 years and you're still not married? Wow, of all the human friends I have known, most cut the line at 3 years before they'll leave on the basis of "non-committal". Either you have a very understanding human friend, or she may be the one afraid of the committment (still, stay with her, she's obviously devoted to you (as are you to her)).

[DSA4130]

I want to be prepared for any mission. And a lot of times I like to think of life as a war (which I supppose isn't altogether unrealistic, considering my profession). Definitely do get paranoid though sometimes whenever I'm in a position of power, and start imagining who could be conspiring to overthrow or subvert me. I wonder if I do this just because I get bored and start itching for conflict and a new battle to wage.

These comments made me laugh, I've been the same way my entire life. My dad likes to tell people how, when I was 4 or 5 years old, he'd get up on mornings to go to work, and find me (pre-6:00AM) dressed and ready to go, shoes on and everything, for whatever the day held.

Even now I like to be prepared for whatever circumstances arise, in any situation (social, business, etc.), which can lead to those same 'paranoid' feelings Dynamicism mentioned.

[mamalushi]

That's the last thing I think of when my ENTJ friends come to mind. They are usually so blunt they can knock you over (I am also one so joke's on me). The majority of them can't stand anything other than WYSIWYG.

[sophia]

Ok, here is the BIG question for the ENTJ's out there and for those who love them....why do some ENTJ's repress thier desire for love and for marriage. I realize that being carreer oriented is important,. But really folks when a man is healthy, in his 40's, staring, looking, hugging etc. yet cannot move forward...what does that mean?

Any and all intelligent wisdom will be appreciated....

[sophia]

Interesting and considerate reply. It has been interesting getting to know this particular ENTJ. After reading many of the posted comments....I found myself remembering how much I disliked this person upon our initial meetings. I thought that arrogance and some other strange thing was stirring around in that ENTJ's head that I did not see any reason to want to get to know this person.....then, through circumstances out of my control we were forced to get to know one another. Then, what an eye opener. This particular ENTJ is probably a genius. Although I think that the mental and spiritual challenges that I offer give this Fieldmarshal a good run for the money. Which is probably why we enjoy each others company so much. But there are things about the ENTJ...yet, one thing is for certain. I am not sure that I have met anyone more loyal to friends and family, serious about learning and dialouge or who works harder at controlling emotions....go figure

[Eidos]

Funny reading this...

The phrase my past girlfriends always used to tell me: "I didn't know what to think of you... I wasn't sure I liked you... then at [place X] you surprised me, I didn't know you were like that" :wink:

[sophia]

Funny you say? I have spent at least a year working closely with this person and getting (EVER SO SLOWLY) to know them personally that it has often felt as though I was pulling a turtle along on a leash....then whoosh it was as though superperson appeared and I thought...naw, definetly body snatchers in the night...cannot be the same person...but tell me eidos....why are ENTJ's so prone or rather driven to control thier emotions. My gal pal ENTJ says that they are just too big and I always know when she is attracted to some guy (always the same type, spooky) she will start babbling about some un consequetial thing...some stupid thing and not shut up....geesh I think just flirt a little for heavens sake and where a skirt....but no, she won't. She thinks that it should just happen the way in which it is always mapped out in the bright little head of hers....

[Eidos]

but tell me eidos....why are ENTJ's so prone or rather driven to control thier emotions. My gal pal ENTJ says that they are just too big and I always know when she is attracted to some guy (always the same type, spooky) she will start babbling about some un consequetial thing...some stupid thing and not shut up....geesh I think just flirt a little for heavens sake and where a skirt

Because we're so driven on "thinking" :wink:

[sophia]

Driven smiven....I think, as well as feel. I do not think that my feelings count any less than my thinking...or my rational sorting through my emotions in most given situations.

Since I am in a profession which demands all sorts of interpersonal as well as administrative skills, the demand for me to be on top of my emotions and my thinking is crucial to how I face any and all variables or people that I work with in the course of a day.

I cannot supress or repress my emotions simply because I am thinking. That would not be smart. And since you ENTJ's are all about the smart...well, you need to expound a bit on your comment. Please.

[Eidos]

I can't tell you much more than what's already explained by type theory... ENTJ's have their first function which is "Extraverted Thinking". It's their favorite. You can't do "Extraverted Thinking" and "Feeling" at the same time. ENTJ's are used to understanding everything through logic.

Tell me... are you ENFP?

edit: Bingo, saw you're post on the other forum saying you are.

[Creepy-]

your answer explains why other tempermants find the ENTJ arrogant, rude etc. I>E> AS I have already explained to you (we hear...are you stupid, you mean you cannot get this the first time around...) yes, mr, rational I get it / we get it. I am giving up here because your unwillingness to think a little more deeply about this is frustrating..... I am not kidding here. I enjoy learning about all of this but hate being shut down by someone who will not engage a bit more deeply into the emotional side of this.

Its not they we are fickle, maybe the enfp is just smarter when it comes to knowing when to fold.

[MysticSonic]

ENTjs work hard to control their emotions? GOLDEN BALLS anyone? But yeah, the rest of what you said is probably true to a certain extent.

[Angel von Himmel]

I like ENTjs until they start trying to be politically correct and expect others to follow along ... that always pisses me off ...

[Rocky]

your answer explains why other tempermants find the ENTJ arrogant, rude etc. I>E> AS I have already explained to you (we hear...are you stupid, you mean you cannot get this the first time around...) yes, mr, rational I get it / we get it. I am giving up here because your unwillingness to think a little more deeply about this is frustrating..... I am not kidding here. I enjoy learning about all of this but hate being shut down by someone who will not engage a bit more deeply into the emotional side of this.

Its not they we are fickle, maybe the enfp is just smarter when it comes to knowing when to fold.

This guy's right, not ALL ENTJs are arrogant and rude. Steve seems to be a cool ENTJ. The problem is that there are so many more dick-head ENTJs. I don't hate all ENTJs, but there are just a lot that I can't seem to get along with. These guys ENJOY being stubborn and are PROUD about it. Some ENTJs are even closed-mind and plain dumb. Again, think Golden Balls. These ENTJs act the way they act, and then claim that there is a consipiracy against them?!? They can't take any blame for themselves. The ENTJs who posted here said things like "Well, I was pretty much an ass and thought it was ok, then people told me I was an ass and I was like 'Huh?' and kept being a dick to people anyway..." I guess "maturing" is difficult for a lot of ENTJs.

ENTJs are also good at telling people what to do but are not completely grounded in reality themselves. This is usually when I get mad at ENTJs, when they think they know what's good for everyone without even knowing what they think they know. That's why whenever an ENTJ is doing one of his "I'm so superior to everyone" routines I like to punch him in the face. That way he'll start to feel pain and think "wow, maybe I'm not perfect" and I feel my job as the Supervisor is done.

[Creepy-sophia]

Actually, I am not a guy...I become frustrated with the ENTJ drive to marshal the forces toward thier objectives, as though no one else's objectives matter. I realize that in the ENTJ mind a complicated personality structure exsists which cuts them off from thier emotions. But guess what? Any worthwhile therapist or counselor ( and trust me folks, in ministry I do a lot of listening and guiding; and NEVER do I think for one minute that I have any and all answers for all people or all things) will tell a person that being cut off from thier emotions is a dangerous thing. In one way or another emotions will show themselves. And if they are supressed or repressed they seep out, act out or explode into something that others (who are healthy) just do not want to be around.

And so I raised the question to Eido because I thought that maybe he was bright and progressive enough to dialouge on the subject of what really happens inside of the emotional world of the ENTJ. Because I really want to know. I am curious to learn about it and to understand it. But maybe it really comes down to the ENTJ not really being able to understand it or articulate it at all.

Comments?

[sophia]

Tell me... are you ENFP?

edit: Bingo, saw you're post on the other forum saying you are.
_________________
ENTj

Actually, my E and my I are equally split. I am not only a champion but a healer. Taxing on those most close to me...so technically, you are only half right. But to be fair, I should have made that clear in my last posting.

SO, I read where you claimed ENTJ's were generous in bed. Interesting how you can flirt with danger yet not give a clear definition of emotions and how they work inside of your body...

[Eidos]

your answer explains why other tempermants find the ENTJ arrogant, rude etc. I>E> AS I have already explained to you (we hear...are you stupid, you mean you cannot get this the first time around...) yes, mr, rational I get it / we get it. I am giving up here because your unwillingness to think a little more deeply about this is frustrating..... I am not kidding here. I enjoy learning about all of this but hate being shut down by someone who will not engage a bit more deeply into the emotional side of this.

Its not they we are fickle, maybe the enfp is just smarter when it comes to knowing when to fold.

I don't know what you're talking about. Everybody's trying to give you a considerate reply here. You're coming up aggressive already. Don't expect us to open us with that attitude. In itself, that is a lack of understanding, and respect, of other people - so I wouldn't pride myself in my people skills and knowledge of emotions of others if I were you.

[Eidos]

This guy's right, not ALL ENTJs are arrogant and rude. Steve seems to be a cool ENTJ. The problem is that there are so many more dick-head ENTJs. I don't hate all ENTJs, but there are just a lot that I can't seem to get along with. These guys ENJOY being stubborn and are PROUD about it. Some ENTJs are even closed-mind and plain dumb. Again, think Golden Balls. These ENTJs act the way they act, and then claim that there is a consipiracy against them?!? They can't take any blame for themselves. The ENTJs who posted here said things like "Well, I was pretty much an ass and thought it was ok, then people told me I was an ass and I was like 'Huh?' and kept being a dick to people anyway..." I guess "maturing" is difficult for a lot of ENTJs.

ENTJs are also good at telling people what to do but are not completely grounded in reality themselves. This is usually when I get mad at ENTJs, when they think they know what's good for everyone without even knowing what they think they know. That's why whenever an ENTJ is doing one of his "I'm so superior to everyone" routines I like to punch him in the face. That way he'll start to feel pain and think "wow, maybe I'm not perfect" and I feel my job as the Supervisor is done.

I think you're making awful generalizations. No type is good/bad. There are asses everywhere. There are probably plenty of nice ENTJ's but you don't even think they are ENTJ because you have associated ENTJ with negative traits.

With all good comes some bad. Nobody's perfect. The ENTJ's decisiveness, will, etc. can be positive OR negative depending on how it's used and where. Sometimes that "attitude" brings them far and lets them lift mountains... start up new companies... do things nobody would have believed in. Sometimes they're headed towards a brick wall. It's the price to pay.

And I would advise you not even trying to "punch me in the face", if that was a metaphor or to be taken literally.

I don't like your attitude. You show a lack of respect. Don't be surprised that some ENTJ's act the way they do around you - You probably deserve it.

[Rocky]

I think you're making awful generalizations. No type is good/bad. There are asses everywhere. There are probably plenty of nice ENTJ's but you don't even think they are ENTJ because you have associated ENTJ with negative traits.

This guy's right, not ALL ENTJs are arrogant and rude.

I don't hate all ENTJs, but there are just a lot that I can't seem to get along with.

Apparently you are one of the ENTJs I was talking about.

And I would advise you not even trying to "punch me in the face", if that was a metaphor or to be taken literally.

That was kinda a joke, but with a little seriousness to it. I was saying that sometimes that seems to be the only way to bring one of these bad ENTJs back to reality when they don't know what they are talking about.

Most other ENTjs I've known were pretty blunt, crude, and proud of it.

This what written by an ENTJ and was exactly what I was talking about before. Some ENTJs are PROUD of this behaviour, that's why people push away from them.

[Creepy-]

Dynacisim wrote:
Though I'm anything but detached and aloof. I've got pretty strong emotions about a lot of things - though they're mostly in regards to different principles and values I believe in very strongly... not so much personal matters. I'm not much of an empathic person. I do have a lot of difficulty relating to other people, putting myself "in their shoes" so to speak, etc. Being revealing about anything that's outside of my hobbies/interests is also exceptionally hard, not to mention painstakingly boring. Why do people like to sit around and talk about their feelings all the time? I don't get it.
_________________
ENTj

Your comment speaks volumes about how other tempermants relate to you (or maybe how others can or cannot relate to you. this of course is speculation on my part) But others easily sense when another is able to realate to them or not. Relating is either there or it is not.

I relate well with all of my ENTJ friends. Most of my friends are either NT or NF tempermants. And the brightest ENTJ's will talk about personal things/ feelings etc, as well as a variety of other subjects. One of my dearest friends is an INTJ and she is quite intense, funny, sexy and smart.

But these rationals, I suppose, may be a bit more mature and they have learned the benifit of putting themselves into the shoes of others. In this way then, they draw people to them and thier lives are broadened through and in many things/people/experineces.

For me though, I do not have to work at it . Its always been a part of who I am. So that every weekend I have plans or a party to go to. More friends then I can keep up with and relationships that grow and ignite all sorts of wonderful things for me.

This past summer I traveled to Europe and met so many great people and came home to more of them. I suppose I always want ENTJ's to become more open and rounded and to see themselves as capable to work outside of thier heads as well as they do inside.

And I suppose the rationals in my life want me to spend more time on subjects, which I do. Last summer I learned Greek. I also read and translate Hebrew...so you see not all is lost. Its just that to me, emotions are something that need to be integrated into the logic as logic develops. And vice versa.

Maybe that is all too idealistic. But I have had great success with it. And I thank all of you for your comments. I have learned a lot.

:wink:

[sophia]

Hey

Forgot to log on (actually, I hit the button that is supposed to log me on automaticaly) maybe it does not...in any case the response from A, above is from me.

[Eidos]

Most other ENTjs I've known were pretty blunt, crude, and proud of it.

This what written by an ENTJ and was exactly what I was talking about before. Some ENTJs are PROUD of this behaviour, that's why people push away from them.

Most ENTJ's have succeeded by themselves, without other people's help. If they had listened to others, they wouldn't be where they'd be today. This attitude of being crude/blunt accompanies their drive to get things accomplished. You can't have one without the other.

This is only the "external" appearance of ENTJ's. If you get to earn their trust, you'll see that they really aren't that bad. And this is valid for "most".