VI = INFj > INxp/ENFx

[raisonpure]

Well, after months of hesitation and confusion (ISTp? ISFp? ISFj? INFj? INFp? ENTp? INTj!?!?), I thought I might as well ask for an V.I., especially since Asians "look identical to each other anyway". I am still new to socionics, so even if no one can be bothered to V.I. me -- what with all the V.I. threads that have been created already -- I would still appreciate resources on how to V.I.

http://img140.imageshack.us/img140/4...ture014ac4.jpg <- dwelling on friends
http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/4688/picture017kn1.jpg <- with so-called "weird" expression

In case the above pictures do not suffice, may I present the following information for your analysing pleasure:

- Often remarked to be "too serious" for a girl of my age. Also accused of being a "robot" and other variations for usual monotonous tone and lack of expression. However, am anything but expressionless around friends and closer acquaintances.

- Consensus from Nohari window range from "timid", "withdrawn", "aloof", to "insecure". Apparently, I give off a strong "searching" vibe.

- When in social settings, will try to make self unnoticed by smothering my presence. Have been remarked to give off a weak "sense of existence". Dislike of physical involvement, of being directly involved with external world. Drawn to the "sense of anonymity" derived from being in museums and other tourist attractions.

- Extreme sensitivity over intelligence. Was once so angered by a classmate's implicated jeers at my stupidity in a public setting -- which could've been a joke -- that I imagined myself turning over the desks, strangling him, and roaring insults at him. The fear of being judged for my competence/intelligence eventually interfered with my studies, manifesting itself in overprotection of my progress in work, and in performance anxiety -- if I am not prepared, then I will do whatever it takes to avoid performing. I identify with enneagram type 5 for that reason.

- Can easily perceive corrections on logical reasoning as criticism of my character, and may view the deliverer of the correction as a threat. Will brood over such "criticism" for years, and work on improving my reasoning ability.

- Often criticised for unwittingly violating social customs, lack of responsibility and conscience, selfishness, and total disregard/neglect of physical environment and health -- I live in a perpetual state of disorganisation. Ironically, I used to give others the impression of being a "determined", "organised planner". Also chastised for being conservative. I have been asked why I care so much about what others think of me. I feel very awkward in social settings -- the reactions that are expected of me generate inner conflict. Cannot smile naturally when asked to, for to smile when I do not feel happy would be dishonest and "fake".

- Feel overshadowed, sometimes even annoyed by those with a dominating physical presence.

- Sense of time? What's that? o_O

- Said to walk strangely. Words such as "mechanical", "penguin-like", "robotic", "unnatural", "a bop", and "a slight jog" have been used to describe my walk. Apparently, I walk naturally only when I am by myself.

- I get angry when people "mess around" with my messy room. Even if they have the best of intentions.

Well, that will be all for now. Questions for elaboration are welcomed.

[pesto]

Screw those who say Asians all look the same.

Anyway, I could see you as being INFj, both from your text, including the title, and the second picture. Most of what you say looks like PoLR to me, but the following quote is what makes me say INFj over INTj.

Ironically, I used to give others the impression of being a "determined", "organised planner".

IMHO

[pezzonovante]

I'm Asian and I got VIed pretty well by the people on this board.

Most of the stuff you wrote fits INxJ - but I would say INTJ over INFJ. It's hard to type based on only your negative characteristics. What things are you good at? What things do you feel most confident with?

Also, are morals very important to you? Would you consider yourself more emotional or rational?

[Typeless Wonder]

Extreme sensitivity over intelligence. Was once so angered by a classmate's implicated jeers at my stupidity in a public setting -- which could've been a joke -- that I imagined myself turning over the desks, strangling him, and roaring insults at him. The fear of being judged for my my competence/intelligence eventually interfered with my studies, manifesting itself in overprotection of my progress in work, and in performance anxiety -- if I am not prepared, then I will do whatever it takes to avoid performing. I identify with enneagram type 5 for that reason.

I wonder if this fear of having your competence/intelligence judged could be a manifestation of a Te polr? Just a thought. Do you frequently find yourself in situations where you initially didn't believe you did do a good job or felt very unconfidant about it but you later learned that others thought you did a superb job?

[Joy]

INTp or INFp

INFp only because of your sensitivity to criticism of your intelligence... but is intellect and intellectual accomplishment something that is held in the highest regard in your family?

[discojoe]

I used to make out with an Asian chick. Tastes like rice.

[Spiral]

.

[Joy]

I've never made out with an asian chick

[MysticSonic]

INXj.

[Joy]

- Feel overshadowed, sometimes even annoyed by those with a dominating physical presence.

yeah, sounds like a Se PoLR... she describes weak Fe too

I agree that we need to hear more about what she's good at, the type of people she feels comfortable being around, etc.

[Kristiina]

INxx.
I considered all 4 types. Most of it sounds INTp, but not the part that sounds like Te-polr. That's the part that sounds INFp'ish, but you don't really sound INFp.
I considered INTj for a moment, but naaah. I don't get that feeling.

INFj could work. Maybe. I think.


Question: when you're with a group of friends, where do you stand in the group dynamics? (some people are bossy and make most of the plans, some get along with everyone equally, some often have conflicts with someone, some always express their opinions, some don't...) People are rarely "just a part of the group", usually they have a role there.

[raisonpure]

Having ended up with one of my lengthier posts, I'd like to thank everyone who has replied -- I wanted to tear the thread down only minutes after erecting it -- and beg forgiveness for my windy writing.

INFj fits so far, but I have my doubts because:
1) I'm said to be seriously lacking in empathy. Sure, I can feel the emotions of others from a distance -- maybe more like gauging the mood of a setting -- but I can't sympathise most of the time, and know even less about what to do when someone comes to me for help. My guesses at where people are coming from with their emotions are rarely accurate. It is easy to block people out in my self-absorbed moments (I live in my own world most of the time). Actively helping others with small tasks like washing the dishes does not come naturally to me. I usually don't do anything that feels "unnatural" to me.
2) I consider myself to be more irrational than rational.

Screw those who say Asians all look the same.

I was poking fun at the stereotype, in case someone else decided to bring it up. Thanks anyway :wink:

I used to make out with an Asian chick. Tastes like rice.

If I had rice with me, I'd be spilling it. But as it is, I've only had stinky tofu for food these couple of days. I assure you, it doesn't taste as bad as it sounds -- er, smells.

Most of the stuff you wrote fits INxJ - but I would say INTJ over INFJ. It's hard to type based on only your negative characteristics. What things are you good at? What things do you feel most confident with?

Also, are morals very important to you? Would you consider yourself more emotional or rational?

I'd rather consider myself rational than emotional, though I can be very sentimental. Once I find the right audience to cling to, I'll drag them into my endless search for meaning.

As for whether morality is important to me, it is not important for me to live in faithful adherence to a rigid set of right and wrong. The process of discovering/exploring moral concepts is more important. In other words, "How to live" is the question that lies at the core of my actions.

My inability to decide on a particular code of ethics is due to the possibility that 1) they could be flawed and 2) there are others to be found. But although I'd rather see things in grey, in acknowledgment of all ethical systems, I can be stubborn (in a blind way) when others try to force their morals on me, and that's when I start arguing back every accusation like a machine gun. But I am willing to listen to advice appealing to my self-interest, usually from a perspective. Which is why I can listen to lectures (sound reasoning) from my father and aunt (who are dominant), rather than from my mother, whose black-and-white views are perceived as mere nagging.

I'm good at spouting monologues on what it is to be human and overanalysing simple statements by going out of the context and looking at the various ways in which they can be interpreted. For example, I'd point out that the phrase, "There is nothing new under the sun" (a phrase I dislike immensely), doesn't have to be from the standpoint of an earthling, not to mention that it's outdated in that it is based on the assumption that the Sun is directly above the Earth, and so on... It's a useful skill for filling up an English essay, but in day-to-day life, it only serves to frustrate those who debate for the sake of winning/delivering a point/reaching a conclusion.

I might also be good at emotional manipulation when I set myself to it, though I didn't even suspect it until my friend told me so after I used it on him It didn't turn out well, and I regretted my lousy attempt to help him. But it seems that I can motivate people into action by challenging them to meet their unfulfilled potential. I am also capable of turning "trivial" experiences into inspiring speeches on beauty and meaning, as part of the sentimentalism I keep hidden from others most of the time If only I could use my strengths on myself as effectively.

<pulls self back from meander>

I wonder if this fear of having your competence/intelligence judged could be a manifestation of a Te polr? Just a thought. Do you frequently find yourself in situations where you initially didn't believe you did do a good job or felt very unconfidant about it but you later learned that others thought you did a superb job?

Yes, absolutely. I'd brood over a simple spelling error such as "intrigueing" for days, even after receiving an overall good mark on the essay. I don't recall a time when I haven't received praise on my abilities with skepticism.

INTp or INFp

INFp only because of your sensitivity to criticism of your intelligence... but is intellect and intellectual accomplishment something that is held in the highest regard in your family?

Education and Independence are certainly the most cherished values in my father's side of the family, the members of which are known for their "arrogance" and "cold rationality". I've typed my father as ENTj, albeit one who only exercises his foresight, strategic planning, and ruthless decisiveness in multiplayer online strategy games. He loves numbers and likes to make stock market predictions, but with sporadic accuracy. My grandfather gives off an IxTj vibe, and unlike my father and myself, takes excellent care of his health. My aunt, a life-long learner, is possibly ESTj, and remains unmarried at her late 40's. It is speculated that her bossiness, rationality, and tough attitude scares the men away She hates my father for failing to make himself useful, though. My grandfather and aunt are both very organised: I am on guard when living with them; their presence alone motivates me to be responsible and tidy. A comment on my sloppiness from them would only be to my shame, so I go out of my way to avoid any such comments, whereas a lecture from my mother would only result in a quarrel over aesthetics.

I agree that we need to hear more about what she's good at, the type of people she feels comfortable being around, etc.

People I feel comfortable with
Father ( ), who is as much of a slob as I am. The sloppy way he dresses in public is downright embarrassing, even though he isn't aware of having violated dressing codes in the slightest. One of his students' first impression of him was: "wearing gumboots, and reeking of fish". He can also roar in public settings (riled by a phone call from my mother) without a care for the impact he has on others. Funnily enough, those can be applied to me as well, and it distresses my mother to no end:

"Do you have any idea how horribly your clothes are matched!?"
"Must you talk so loudly? The neighbours are still asleep. You never think of others!"

The practical (super-logical) advice he occasionally gives is both inspiring and comforting. The only times when I am unsettled by him is during his flashes of anger, in which he starts roaring and threatens physical violence (though he tries very hard to restrain himself). I always back away when he starts roaring. He also has this habit of calling people idiots when they can't follow his quick reasoning. Even if he doesn't mean for it to offend, it doesn't do much for my self-esteem either.

Friends; I've noticed that the friends I get along with minimum effort share the following characteristics:
- a lot more sociable than I am (almost the opposite)
- pose no threat to me
- more in touch with reality; participants in the external world
- chatterboxes/entertainers who open themselves up and talk about everything and nothing while giving me attention. I become more inclined to talk about whatever's on my mind as a result.
- able to take my light-hearted responses in good humour, since I like to tease my friends by giving responses that deliberately go against their expectations (meant to offend)
- patiently wait for an answer while I think it through. some people don't even wait
- exude a warm feeling; have genuine feelings
- are sympathetic to my flaws. won't criticise me for my poor fashion sense
- tells me what to do in social rituals
My best friend, who matches most of the above, can also be discomfited by those with a dominating presence, and is more sensitive about insufficient knowledge than insufficient understanding/reasoning ability, so he will avoid know-it-alls at all cost. We can be ourselves around each other, and have many shared interests to talk about. However, due to the playful nature of our friendship, we hardly ever have serious discussions. It seems that we care and think about very different things. Morality is most important to him, and he's a lot more responsible than I am (then again, do I know anyone whose irresponsibility matches mine?). His is easily influenced.

I also feel comfortable around people who are good at generating an intimate, comfortable atmosphere, and show genuine concern towards others. I love talking to psychologists, too.

People I don't feel comfortable with
Know-it-alls who condemn those lacking in previous knowledge/skill
My mother ( ?), who criticises me for all that I am:
- Thinks I'm subhuman for my lack of common sense.
- Puts me down for poor sense of colour coordination (like anyone would pay as much attention as she does... right?)
- Deems it impossible for me to have no concept of tidiness and organisation
- Offended by every one of my faux pas
- Calls me an idiot (intended as an insult) when she herself only comments on the excellent colour coordination and fashionable hairstyles in a thought-provoking movie
- Wants me to be normal
- Advises me to watch the news more often because "it'll make you more compassionate" -- yeah, like watching horror movies will make me more courageous
- Resorts to immature threats ("I'll throw your clothes out the window if you don't pick them up from the floor RIGHT NOW. And NO I don't care if it inconveniences the neighbours") where calm reasoning would be much more productive.
- Easily offended by debates.
- Social butterfly; master of phony smiles.
- Spiritually driven; believes in astrology and other mumbo jumbo because "the evidence is too convincing to be doubted"
- A heavy bag of emotions
- Throws objects when she's stressed -- which I find absolutely distasteful. - Manages to annoy the living daylights out of my father and me even through the phone.
In short, living with her = hell. We tend to drag each other down and pick
each other's flaws.

Those who talk less than I do I can play the inquisitor just fine, but having to extract answers from someone can be awkward business. And I don't talk about myself unless someone reveals themselves first, or asks me questions, so I end up having to ask most of the questions...

Colleagues who pester me to estimate time of completion the more I'm asked to predict the future, the longer I'll take to get things done.

Question: when you're with a group of friends, where do you stand in the group dynamics? (some people are bossy and make most of the plans, some get along with everyone equally, some often have conflicts with someone, some always express their opinions, some don't...) People are rarely "just a part of the group", usually they have a role there.

I lean back and allow myself to be dragged along. When walking in a group, I usually lag behind ("Where'd she go? Oh, there you are!"). I fade out in group settings unless an interesting discussion is held over the dining table. But given enough time to verbalise my thoughts, I'm said to raise the standard of conversation

[pezzonovante]

Excellent response, this is a lot more information than I expected. Surely more than enough to type you with. The problem is that I am extremely drunk right now, and I have to wake up in 3 hours to catch a 12 hour flight. Just from skimming through what you said I still think INTj, but only time will tell what type you really are. I owe you a better analysis and I'll give it to you when I get the chance. But for now I must enjoy the fleeting pleasure of sleep for a few hours.

[FDG]

INTp? or INFp.

After actually reading the post, I'd say INTp over INFp.

[Kristiina]

INTp.
Being used to ignoring enormous posts, I didn't plan to read the entire thing at first, but some parts about your ENTj farther fascinated me and I ended up reading the entire post.

I think you are gamma NT, because of how you look and how you interact with your relatives. I don't think you have the Exxj temperament. And like I said before, most of your post reminded me of INTp. (except for one paragraph.). INTps can seem pretty similar to INFjs sometimes, because they highly value Fi. The difference is that INFjs also have

I think your mother is ESFj or maybe ISFp. I'm sorry, I don't think your parents are duals. (mainly due to the interactions you described). Your mother seems to value both Si and Fe but she doesn't sound like my ISFp mother.


I thought that you worrying about criticism of intelligence is caused by your youth (you look 16-17) and by your Te father. But this still confused me quite a bit. I read this part to an INTp to hear his opinion. He said, "You have no idea how familiar that sounds". Now I remember that creative types can be very concerned about their public presence, which can sound like Fe-PoLR. Using the same logic, that paragraph does not indicate Te-PoLR after all.

The size of your vocabulary and the way you express yourself does sound INTp, especially considering your age.

Nothing you said excluded INTp, but many things sounded very strongly INTp. Besides, you provoked a conversation between me and that INTp and we both agreed that you kinda sound like him.

[XoX]

INTp. Or some other INxx type. But most likely INTp.

[FDG]

I think your mother is ESFj or maybe ISFp. I'm sorry, I don't think your parents are duals. (mainly due to the interactions you described). Your mother seems to value both Si and Fe but she doesn't sound like my ISFp mother.

She's a rather clear example of an ISFj on the low end of the spectrum of mental health and intelligence, actually.

[implied]

lkj;lkj

[Expat]

I'm inclined to see INFj. I agree with Fabio about the mother, but ISFp remains possible.

My main problem with INTp is the extreme insecurity with remarks about her intelligence, and other things that suggest sensitive rather than . The super-ego seems and , although some of it is related too. She also seems to have > .

[meatburger]

I agree with Expat. I feel the INFj vibe. Your typing style reminds me of my INFj friend.

The sensitivity to intelligence yep he has that do. As do i of course as an Enfp.

The selfishness kind of things, yeah amazingly that is totally him aswell. In fact quite often he is oblivious to other people. You will offer him one of your fries in macdonalds and he will just keep eating until either they are gone or you tell him they are yours. Or he will be kind of snooty if the group decides not to see the movie he wants he will consider just leaving and going home.

Btw all the stuff you talked about your friends, your definately an F type.

- patiently wait for an answer while I think it through. some people don't even wait
- exude a warm feeling; have genuine feelings
- are sympathetic to my flaws. won't criticise me for my poor fashion sense

a T type would be less likely to think of things like this.

<pulls self back from meander> Just things like this you say make me think infj

So to summarise what i think

I - your an introvert that seems obvious
N - ok not 100% sure but i just get a feeling
F - you talk about sentimental, use your smileys, feelings hurt etc
J - BAH i dunno im too tired lol

Seems like everyone has a different opinion on you lol

[pesto]

your views on morals sound like an INFp. not very rigid at all. INFjs have very clear ideas on what is right/wrong, who does right/wrong. i don't know what the other INFjs have to say about it.

I'd say what she said about that doesn't really go against her being INFj. There is a core in my values, but it's so basic that I couldn't put it into words. The way my morals manifests themselves changes as I find contradictions and reassess them.

I don't have the time to look into the second post in depth, but to answer the respons to my post:

I think the sweetness of INFjs is exhagerated because of our low . As an example, I've been discribed as warm, but often feel more sarcastic. You say you pick up on other's feelings, but don't empathise. I could see that happen to an INFj who doesn't have the energy to care about others (the situation with your mum could be more than enough), since the backside of is kind of hostile.

And this probably goes for INTjs but at least for INFjs the creative gives us a little p-ness.

[raisonpure]

Was in the middle of my neverending post when I noticed the (overwhelming) addition of new ones. Since I've been plugging away at this for hours, and the amount of responses demand many more, I'll just throw in my incomplete post for now...

i want to say INFp. INFj maybe. i think you write like someone with some control over . maybe you're even ENFj?

your views on morals sound like an INFp. not very rigid at all. INFjs have very clear ideas on what is right/wrong, who does right/wrong. i don't know what the other INFjs have to say about it.

your mom sounds like an ESTj in a way. . stereotypes about ESTjs be damned, she sounds more ESTj than ISFj. she could possibly be a very neurotic and extremely stressed ISFj pushed to the point of neurosis, but i say overworked ESTj -

Fury is his line of defense in a situation of emergency in which he feels otherwise helpless. The aim of his fury is to mobilize his partner, and when this is achieved, he calms down.

She's neurotic, stressed, and overworked. I am tempted to disagree that my mother = ESTj, though I may be biased towards my mother and ESTjs, so I'll just present some more facts:

- My mother considers me to be logical where she is emotional (Sense > Sensibility), whereas my father thinks I'm more like my mother.
- My father hates her indecisiveness.
- She has been easily riled by my "argumentative" reaction to her lectures on morality for as long as I can remember. An attempt at a clean example from when I was 4:

Tried teaching me the importance of picking up the things I left on the floor -> I grudgingly accepted -> Told me to pick up after others as well -> "Why? Shouldn't they pick things up for themselves too?" -> Threatened violence if I didn't "stop arguing" -> "But I'm not!", since I didn't know what "arguing" meant until I was 8-10 -> Beats the crap out of me -> Waste my energy and time fighting back in blind rage -> Becomes even more angered because "Kids aren't supposed to fight back"

(Crap, I suck at concision)

My aunt, on the other hand, responded to the same question by saying "If you actively help others even when they don't expect you to, they will be touched and feel obliged to help you in the future", which was an acceptable response to me, and made me wish I had been raised up by her instead. Besides, now that I think of it, I wasn't "arguing" in the strictest sense of the world, only questioning the validity of her words -- though to point that out to her now would only earn me a tantrum from her. She often accuses me of thinking that I'm right and everyone else is wrong, but to me, it's a matter of "I don't think I'm right, but more importantly, YOU may be wrong".

It would be interesting if you could elaborate on how you determined ESTj > ISFj for my mother. I agree that I have decent command of when it is to my interest. It takes effort, though, so I usually blow it off in favour of... other things I identify more with INFp/INTp more than INFj/ENFj, especially with INxp humour, though the Beta Quadra feels most foreign to me. It's like they don't say as much as the other Quadras, and the visual humour initially feels like a (pleasant) blow to the head... Though in real life, I can imagine myself opening up under influence of that "giddy" feeling. Thanks for pointing those out, though, because I really can't argue much against INFp -- For the time being, anyway. I think I'll scramble through the forums some more to find the distinction.

I'm sorry, I don't think your parents are duals. (mainly due to the interactions you described)

Indeed, they are anything but duals. During the times in which my mother dealt me physical punishment, my father could do nothing but tell her to stop. Occasionally, when a fight had been drawn out for too long, he would interfere by threatening physical violence on either party. I felt stabbed in the heart whenever he applied pressure to my head -- even though he never inflicted as much physical pain as my mother did -- but it was effective, and I wouldn't want to invoke that side of his too often. My mother didn't seem as affected by it. Heck, she'd even persist in pecking him until he was ready to punch her in the face Fortunately, I got tired of all the fighting when adolescence hit, and she thinks it's shameful to beat a grown kid. Nowadays I try to ignore her and carry on with my activities, and go to sleep when she's about to explode, though my father has always been much better at it.

[implied]

sorry, guys! i'm just now getting to the point to where i can tell the difference between the different NFs- it's hardest for me. INFj sounds the best to me. if not that, maybe check out the ENFp descriptions and see if they fit you more.

she seems ESXj to me, somehow. the ESTj conclusion came from throwing things when pissed, but maybe ESFj would work better.

I agree with Fabio about the mother, but ISFp remains possible.

i don't know at all about ISFp, only because they aren't exactly inclined to work hard, are they? i think you know more of them on a personal basis than i do.

[Joy]

I think it depends a bit on culture....

[Expat]

well raisonpure provided a lot of information and I'd just like to highlight a few points - -

Often remarked to be "too serious" for a girl of my age. Also accused of being a "robot" and other variations for usual monotonous tone and lack of expression. However, am anything but expressionless around friends and closer acquaintances.

- Consensus from Nohari window range from "timid", "withdrawn", "aloof", to "insecure". Apparently, I give off a strong "searching" vibe.

- When in social settings, will try to make self unnoticed by smothering my presence. Have been remarked to give off a weak "sense of existence". Dislike of physical involvement, of being directly involved with external world. Drawn to the "sense of anonymity" derived from being in museums and other tourist attractions.

In terms of behavior, the whole of the above, but especially the highlighted bit, suggests INFj rather than INFp.

Also this:

-
-- Said to walk strangely. Words such as "mechanical", "penguin-like", "robotic", "unnatural", "a bop", and "a slight jog" have been used to describe my walk. Apparently, I walk naturally only when I am by myself.

I would not concentrate on this if all the rest pointed towards IP, but that sounds very unlike IP and INFp in particular, who in terms of fluidity of movements are closer to ISFps IMO.

I have been asked why I care so much about what others think of me. I feel very awkward in social settings -- the reactions that are expected of me generate inner conflict. Cannot smile naturally when asked to, for to smile when I do not feel happy would be dishonest and "fake".

This suggests > although it is a bit odd for INFj and might point towards INTp.

So, so far, I'd say that tips the balance towards INFj in relation to INFp.

As for INTp, my main problems with INTp are:

Extreme sensitivity over intelligence. Was once so angered by a classmate's implicated jeers at my stupidity in a public setting -- which could've been a joke -- that I imagined myself turning over the desks, strangling him, and roaring insults at him. The fear of being judged for my competence/intelligence eventually interfered with my studies, manifesting itself in overprotection of my progress in work, and in performance anxiety -- if I am not prepared, then I will do whatever it takes to avoid performing. I identify with enneagram type 5 for that reason.

- Can easily perceive corrections on logical reasoning as criticism of my character, and may view the deliverer of the correction as a threat. Will brood over such "criticism" for years, and work on improving my reasoning ability.

Perhaps the INTps will disagree but I find odd that an INTp would write the above; INTps tend to think others are stupid if called stupid by them. It suggests or in the super-ego, so as far as that goes, INFj, ISFj, ISFp or INFp, but not INTp.

My inability to decide on a particular code of ethics is due to the possibility that 1) they could be flawed and 2) there are others to be found. But although I'd rather see things in grey, in acknowledgment of all ethical systems, I can be stubborn (in a blind way) when others try to force their morals on me, and that's when I start arguing back every accusation like a machine gun. But I am willing to listen to advice appealing to my self-interest, usually from a perspective. Which is why I can listen to lectures (sound reasoning) from my father and aunt (who are dominant), rather than from my mother, whose black-and-white views are perceived as mere nagging.

I would like to see how other INFjs relate to this, I think Diana said something similar at some point - - the flexibility with ethics might not be due to weakish but rather to the possibilities popping up.

Yes, absolutely. I'd brood over a simple spelling error such as "intrigueing" for days, even after receiving an overall good mark on the essay. I don't recall a time when I haven't received praise on my abilities with skepticism

Lack of trust in perhaps.

My mother considers me to be logical where she is emotional (Sense > Sensibility), whereas my father thinks I'm more like my mother.

This really makes me doubt INTp. If her father is a logical type, he would hardly think she is like her mother who doesn't seem very logical.

INFjs, though, due to their rationality and IJ behavior, can be seen as "logical" by other feeling types.

i don't know at all about ISFp, only because they aren't exactly inclined to work hard, are they? i think you know more of them on a personal basis than i do.

ISFps are not generally inclined to work hard if they don't have to. They can work very hard if they do have to, either for financial or cultural reasons. That would stress them and that is perhaps what raisonpure observes.

Anyway, altogether I think that INFj fits better than INFp or INTp. I do agree that a few things do make you think of these types.

[raisonpure]

I'd say what she said about that doesn't really go against her being INFj. There is a core in my values, but it's so basic that I couldn't put it into words. The way my morals manifests themselves changes as I find contradictions and reassess them.

I was able to word "that which was always there" after being thoroughly questioned days before. I often had difficulty answering questions in tests because I'd be like, "Morality? Nah... Rather not see things in black and white, so that's not me" or "Values? What are values again? These descriptions are so vague". Thinking of it as Internal Ethics helped me in the end. That's why I like being asked questions that force me to verbalise -- clarify -- things in order to gain better understanding. I like the rest of your explanations.

[backtracking: point beings, i don't see NT much, more NF in general. god ENFp is what i wanted to say.

I, too, am disinclined to see myself as an NT because of my attraction to "feelery" people and whatnot. INTp was an entertaining possibility, though, because it motivated me to read more on , which I didn't think I had due to my laziness, leading me to suspect strong . For I WILL take video games and anything that doesn't require me to exert any effort beyond sitting (and staying skinny, at that winks meaningfully at ENTjs) over practicalities any day, despite being fully aware of the consequences that will result. But the less mystical descriptions of it remind me of my general behaviour. For instance, when I go outside to explore, I become attuned to possible dangers in every direction (could this be instead of , though?), and I like the challenge of continuously conceiving new plans, and meeting them in time (I can imagine myself preferring public transport over driving years into the future). That's when I walk two, perhaps three times as fast as I normally do, feel alive.

The sensitivity to danger has helped me catch one or two stalkers while venturing into foreign territories by myself, something I do when I feel confined by whatever routine I've fallen into. Like the time when I exited the city library, to be faced with darkness and less than five people in the surroundings. It was my first time at the library, I was totally new to the city, with no idea of how I went there and how to get to the bus stops. It wasn't long after I wandered into one of the darker paths that alarm bells started to signal, and I heard footsteps behind me. Sensing the danger in continuing further, I tried to appear as if I hadn't noticed while I "meandered" back into the safer area. I think he may have been onto me because the footsteps could still be heard even after I deliberately crossed the pedestrian lane to turn back And the possibility of his being an absent-minded tourist was pretty low. There was another time when I my attention was captured by a dance session, felt someone's gaze on me as I watched the proceedings in interest. Or maybe I looked around and immediately detected someone looking at me in a strange way. My suspicions were heightened when I noticed him walking past me many times after I mingled into a more crowded area, gazing at me like I was his prey -- not that I'd further endanger myself by looking at him directly to verify his gaze, because that would indicate returned interest, but I felt it nonetheless. I reacted by pretending to have a conversation over the mobile phone while I made my way out by myself, in case he followed me and...

In day-to-day life, I identify with in that I'd keep on imagining what I'm going to do, collecting information for how to do it or why I'm going to do it (reason for why I read self-help books), and keep on putting the actions off until I feel prepared. Then I lose my willpower when reality doesn't live up to my imaginations, and things turn out more difficult or time-consuming than expected, which also leads me to brood over my inability to keep up with reality. So I blow things off some more until I feel prepared to face it again. This results in weeks, months, perhaps even years of not getting things done and being badgered about my irresponsibility while I gather information that are far from directly related to the task at hand. That's how I ended up here in this forum

Geez, I can't even read my own writing Might divide them into headings if I have any more to post.

i don't know at all about ISFp, only because they aren't exactly inclined to work hard, are they? i think you know more of them on a personal basis than i do.

The only person I know whom I suspect of being ISFp is my best friend, whom I described in my second post (indicates a PoLR from what I've asked of him?) He complains of problems with procrastinations like I do, but unlike myself, he doesn't blow off his commitments and duties, and fills up his weekends with work because he likes the $$, whereas I feel oppressed by a stifling job (no matter how profitable) that becomes a waste of my time.

i also met a (non-asian) girl the other night at a party who i thought was probably ENFp. you have the same expressions, i think.

At a party, you say!? I daresay you wouldn't even find me in one. Do you know how she got dragged into it? =P What were you doing in one? :wink: And is it just my imagination, or do you keep on editing your posts?

The selfishness kind of things, yeah amazingly that is totally him aswell. In fact quite often he is oblivious to other people. You will offer him one of your fries in macdonalds and he will just keep eating until either they are gone or you tell him they are yours. Or he will be kind of snooty if the group decides not to see the movie he wants he will consider just leaving and going home.

I don't think I'm as selfish as that around friends and acquaintances. I would restrain myself to only 1-2 bites in the case of food offerings unless they keep on pushing the food at me, which would indicate more of a genuine disinterest in the food, otherwise I'd risk the possibility of allowing all sorts of nasty thoughts to enter their mind. In the case of movies, I usually stay to see how things will turn out, only to have my mind wander around while I wish I were somewhere else when things go down the expected route. Damn the peer pressure. How does he talk irl? What does he usually talk about? Would you ever call him self-absorbed on the internet?

She's a rather clear example of an ISFj on the low end of the spectrum of mental health and intelligence, actually.

I'd say "Well said" or if it weren't for the possibility that it could be used against me some day.

My main problem with INTp is the extreme insecurity with remarks about her intelligence, and other things that suggest sensitive Extraverted Sensing rather than Extraverted Feeling . The super-ego seems Introverted Thinking and Extraverted Sensing, although some of it is Introverted Sensing related too. She also seems to have Extraverted Intution > Introverted Intution .

I think I see a trend here. Anyway, just the thought of + makes me twitch. Sort of reminds me of my ex-boss, who would take weeks to FINALLY realise a better way of doing things that I'd been trying to hammer into him (also, "Now, do we really have to go over the same section in such detail?" or "Leave the formatting to the publishers, Word will eventually ruin it all anyway"). He's notorious for his stinginess and tendency to exaggerate simple fact into a pessimistic vision of the future . I'm sure he has just as many complaints about me. Amazing how he's actually starting to sound like my super-ego, though the "warm feelings" sure were short-lived.

To your knowledge, what relations are capable of devastating either party by pointing out their most carefully guarded weaknesses in full? A friend of mine made me feel devastated (like when I accidentally the files I had accumulated in my HDD for years, without backup) and stripped to bare existence by simply stating:

"You have no original thought"
"You can't seem to think for yourself"

I accepted his criticism calmly at first because I knew he was only trying to help, but I felt so vulnerable, so exposed, that I had to attack him after the numbness faded away -- I immediately went to sleep after the whole ordeal, dreamed about fighting him back word-for-word, and woke up to immediately enact that dream, not knowing that he was in a bad mood, and too bothered to even care. I was piqued because what he said was the bleak truth, so my counterattacks on him revolved around persuading that the truth was otherwise, even though I was fully aware that no persuasion would change his knowledge of it.

We view each other as the confidant of the other, and are very similar behaviourally. I think I started blowing off my relation after that incident, though, by always trying to prove myself to him. It's a strain to get him to elaborate on "I don't know" answers, but I admire his way of "just knowing" things about people and condensing entire paragraphs from me into single sentences. He uses his understanding of people to adapt to them, and doesn't know who he is because he can assume so many personas. However, he can give the greatest advice on how to deal with people, like methods to placate my mother, for example.

We both feel exposed outside the safety of our rooms (or just, when outside in comparison to being at home), but he can really take some things to the extreme. It's hard for me to digest how he could possibly go for days without food, and even longer without sleep because "it's inefficient". And he doesn't mind having his room tidied as much as I do. We "tend to override each other" when communicating. He feels inferior to those with greater skills, knowledge, and intelligence, but he doesn't feel threatened by the same people, in the same way -- if anything, I've been surprised by how he'd view someone whom I consider a threat to be "inferior" to him... Damn, I think he's the INTp, because based on what I've "extracted" from him, his concern over knowledge could fit Kristiina's explanation:

Now I remember that Extraverted Feeling creative types can be very concerned about their public presence, which can sound like Fe-PoLR. Using the same logic, that paragraph does not indicate Te-PoLR after all.

When I asked him why accumulating knowledge was good, he explained that it's "stimulating" and fun in that it can be applied to impress others and prove others wrong. I feel that creating a good impression on others is really important to him, and his constant mirroring of others may be attributed to that. I could never successfully type him because his emotions run so much deeper than mine that it could be burdening (just as much as my total dependence on him burdens him, I'd imagine). But I can definitely see myself as his beneficiary. And he will kill me if he ever sees this thread

<bows down to the power of >
I am so going to get kicked for my display of submission

And onto sleep.

[Expat]

To your knowledge, what relations are capable of devastating either party by pointing out their most carefully guarded weaknesses in full? A friend of mine made me feel devastated (like when I accidentally the files I had accumulated in my HDD for years, without backup) and stripped to bare existence by simply stating:

"You have no original thought"
"You can't seem to think for yourself"

That suggests in the super-ego as already observed, although the actual event -- accidentally deleting files -- could be more related.

Of all the types suggested for you it does point more towards INFj or INFp than to INTp (which IMO can be discarded). It might point towars as your PoLR, but then the only possible type would be ENFp and that doesn't fit the rest.

As for your question, the relations most likely to do that are conflict and supervision, but your super-ego, comparative, illusionary partner and your beneficiary - and even your dual - can also easily hit your PoLR if they feel like it.

I accepted his criticism calmly at first because I knew he was only trying to help, but I felt so vulnerable, so exposed, that I had to attack him after the numbness faded away -- I immediately went to sleep after the whole ordeal, dreamed about fighting him back word-for-word, and woke up to immediately enact that dream, not knowing that he was in a bad mood, and too bothered to even care. I was piqued because what he said was the bleak truth, so my counterattacks on him revolved around persuading that the truth was otherwise, even though I was fully aware that no persuasion would change his knowledge of it.

We view each other as the confidant of the other, and are very similar behaviourally. I think I started blowing off my relation after that incident, though, by always trying to prove myself to him. It's a strain to get him to elaborate on "I don't know" answers, but I admire his way of "just knowing" things about people and condensing entire paragraphs from me into single sentences. He uses his understanding of people to adapt to them, and doesn't know who he is because he can assume so many personas. However, he can give the greatest advice on how to deal with people, like methods to placate my mother, for example.

We both feel exposed outside the safety of our rooms (or just, when outside in comparison to being at home), but he can really take some things to the extreme. It's hard for me to digest how he could possibly go for days without food, and even longer without sleep because "it's inefficient". And he doesn't mind having his room tidied as much as I do. We "tend to override each other" when communicating. He feels inferior to those with greater skills, knowledge, and intelligence, but he doesn't feel threatened by the same people, in the same way -- if anything, I've been surprised by how he'd view someone whom I consider a threat to be "inferior" to him... Damn, I think he's the INTp, because based on what I've "extracted" from him, his concern over knowledge could fit Kristiina's explanation:

Now I remember that Extraverted Feeling creative types can be very concerned about their public presence, which can sound like Fe-PoLR. Using the same logic, that paragraph does not indicate Te-PoLR after all.

When I asked him why accumulating knowledge was good, he explained that it's "stimulating" and fun in that it can be applied to impress others and prove others wrong. I feel that creating a good impression on others is really important to him, and his constant mirroring of others may be attributed to that. I could never successfully type him because his emotions run so much deeper than mine that it could be burdening (just as much as my total dependence on him burdens him, I'd imagine). But I can definitely see myself as his beneficiary. And he will kill me if he ever sees this thread

<bows down to the power of >
I am so going to get kicked for my display of submission

And onto sleep.

Uh, this guy seems to be > , > , and > , so I'd guess ENFj for him which does not really makes that much sense if you are INFj .

[meatburger]

Well shes not ENFp

Im pretty sure about that one

[Kristiina]

I give up for now. INTp was my only real feeling about her. Ixxp feeling was there. N feeling and Fi feeling. If she's not INTp, then I have no idea.

[Joy]

I think she's INFj.

[dreikin]

Extreme sensitivity over intelligence. Was once so angered by a classmate's implicated jeers at my stupidity in a public setting -- which could've been a joke -- that I imagined myself turning over the desks, strangling him, and roaring insults at him. The fear of being judged for my competence/intelligence eventually interfered with my studies, manifesting itself in overprotection of my progress in work, and in performance anxiety -- if I am not prepared, then I will do whatever it takes to avoid performing. I identify with enneagram type 5 for that reason.

- Can easily perceive corrections on logical reasoning as criticism of my character, and may view the deliverer of the correction as a threat. Will brood over such "criticism" for years, and work on improving my reasoning ability.

Perhaps the INTps will disagree but I find odd that an INTp would write the above; INTps tend to think others are stupid if called stupid by them. It suggests Introverted Thinking or Extraverted Thinking in the super-ego, so as far as that goes, INFj, ISFj, ISFp or INFp, but not INTp.

While I would probably get annoyed at the public ridicule of one of my strong functions, I'd probably just dismiss it and go somewhere else (mentally or physically). Should I be in a situation where the only escape is mentally, I may go off into such hostile imaginings, but the nature wouldn't be exactly the same - the "turning over the desks, strangling him" seems more F than T to me, but that may just be from the nature of the ridicule and audience (if no one's going to listen to logic, it's not a very effective argumentative style, is it? [but I'd still prefer something less ... brute force?]). I could see constant criticism of such a nature producing such a sensitivity and overcompensation for any function placement, though.

Further I think that it's not all that impossible to be sensitive to criticism of strong functions, though the sensitivity may be of a different nature (eg, for the creative function when there is no tangible evidence of it's ability [eg, some hot new technological development like antigravity] or the value of it's results can be put into question, or too much self-criticism).

[raisonpure]

[edit: revised after reading more descriptions of contrary relations]

That suggests Introverted Thinking in the super-ego as already observed, although the actual event -- accidentally deleting files -- could be more Extraverted Thinking related.

"Actual" event? Boy, I think I botched myself on that one. I was likening devastation from the event that transpired between him and me to the devastation I experienced when I accidentally deleted the files in my HDD. The sense of having everything I had accumulated so far wiped in one go which left me thinking "Where do I go from here?". Unless I am seriously misinterpreting your meaning by thinking that you are misinterpreting mine,

Uh, this guy seems to be Extraverted Sensing > Introverted Sensing , Extraverted Feeling > Introverted Feeling , and Introverted Thinking > Extraverted Thinking , so I'd guess ENFj for him which does not really makes that much sense if you are INFj Confused .

Like I said, I suck at typing the guy <bangs head> Or anyone else, for that matter. But I do sense "vibes" from them, like Cold <-> Lukewarm <-> Warm <-> Emotional baggage (!!). If he is ENFj, then indeed, it doesn't "seem" to make sense due to the inconsistency in the roles we have assumed in the development of our relationship (sounds cheesy). But that's another (hard to swallow) story that I'll probably post in the Intertype Relations forum, if it can be a worthier contribution there.

Smile I give up for now. INTp was my only real feeling about her. Ixxp feeling was there. N feeling and Fi feeling. If she's not INTp, then I have no idea.

Welcome to my world :wink: I could just vomit from the doubt I undergo daily, not to the mention constant altering of my mind as new material comes in. Mingling with INFjs, INTps, and INFps might be of help. I even have a friend irl who matches this: "INFp in particular, who in terms of fluidity of movements are closer to ISFps IMO." And I clicked with him almost immediately, despite my first impression of him as being an emo. For some reason, that's the impression that I get from (supposed) INFps Behaviourally, we seem to share the same flaws, but he differs from me in that he is much more accepting of others' strongly expressed opinions, and will even calmly point out another way of looking at the matter, while it takes extreme effort for me to listen without narrowing my eyes and biting back. But maybe that's because I haven't tried forcing my morals on him yet, for he says that he was once like me, and that working in populated work environments helped, as well as showing interest in the customers' private lives. He is more expressive, though, and doesn't feel withdrawn from the physical world. On a conversational level, he can get along with my mother as well as I do over the dinner table, but he seems eager to avoid her. Sometimes I think she butts too much into his life.

As for your question, the relations most likely to do that are conflict and supervision, but your super-ego, comparative, illusionary partner and your beneficiary - and even your dual - can also easily hit your PoLR if they feel like it.

I certainly gave him reason to feel like hitting my weakness by endlessly flooding him with unprocessed information when he was already in a bad mood, and he knew what my weaknesses were long before he initiated contact with me -- he even admitted later on that some of the things he said (concerning intelligence) were deliberately intended to impress by belittling. My expectations of / from him probably exhausted him as much as his expectations of sympathy and a good comforting (?) exhausted me. I was incapable of reciprocating half as much of what he felt, and was even disinclined to give him what he wanted, so I'd deliberately and even brutally make silly interpretations of how he could come to feel as he did, and bully him into taking practical action, for I often feel that "just listening" isn't enough. I suppose we disappointed each other in that regard.

Eventually the differences in our values began to surface, and no, I couldn't just accept our differences, I had to argue for my position. While I was happily venturing down the Path of Interpretation, he'd sigh and say that I wasn't getting the point. He held it important to discover at the Truth by asking some more questions, but I considered it more fun to explore the different paths that could lead to the Truth, and other Truths. He probed in order to confirm what he thought he already knew, and I explored for the fun of it, because I consider "what is imagined" more entertaining than "what is true". And if "what is imagined" happens to be true, then all the better! He also wondered why I had to express a concept through so many (extraneous) words, where a sentence could be halved while still retaining the meaning. To me, cutting down on words could not only result in the loss of information, but also make the meaning become shrouded in ambiguity, which results in the risk of misinterpretation. Such arguments were "Pointless" in that no agreement or conclusion could be reached, leaving a bitter taste behind.

As much as I tried to salvage my friendship with him, I couldn't stop myself from sending him monologues without inquiring after him, and I wonder if he even read through them. I wanted to share my world with him. I admired him. I felt inferior to him, and wanted to belittle him for inexplicable reasons. He would occasionally admit to feeling envious of me, of feeling inferior (but "Not in that way" -- I still don't know what he meant by that). I wanted to see him for the precious individual that I once saw, but ended up treating him as an object. He complained that everything was about me, and it was true, regardless of my best intentions.

Well, he's gone now, which is both a loss and a relief. I often wondered at how I could care so much about someone who presented what I generally disliked: He was fake in the truest sense of the word; lying was a second nature to him, so much so that I started doubting most of what he said about himself; his profound emotions, which would come in devastating outbursts, demanded return... Though he came to keep that side from me, just as I took care to keep my information-addicted side hidden from him. Which was for the good of both parties, though he said less after that, as if we had no more use for one another. A lonelier or sadder person I have never known.

I've noticed that there are few -- if any -- threads on ENFjs from their own perspective. I once asked him why he never posted on forums, and he said it was because of the lack of interaction and immediate reaction. I daresay that the inability to adapt to another person made him anxious of having to present a single, genuine version of himself -- his true self.

Wherever he is, he probably has just as many negative things to say about me. And now I need a T_T emoticon <- sentimentality

While I would probably get annoyed at the public ridicule of one of my strong functions, I'd probably just dismiss it and go somewhere else (mentally or physically). Should I be in a situation where the only escape is mentally, I may go off into such hostile imaginings, but the nature wouldn't be exactly the same - the "turning over the desks, strangling him" seems more F than T to me, but that may just be from the nature of the ridicule and audience (if no one's going to listen to logic, it's not a very effective argumentative style, is it? [but I'd still prefer something less ... brute force?]). I could see constant criticism of such a nature producing such a sensitivity and overcompensation for any function placement, though.

Further I think that it's not all that impossible to be sensitive to criticism of strong functions, though the sensitivity may be of a different nature (eg, for the creative function when there is no tangible evidence of it's ability [eg, some hot new technological development like antigravity] or the value of it's results can be put into question, or too much self-criticism).

I would also prefer not to resort to brute force, but the threat of losing control of myself that way still looms perilously above me, as if a beast could break out of me given enough provocation. I think my childhood plays a great part into this, and this particular fear manifests itself in dreams/imaginings of unadulterated physical violence. Your response, particularly your method of self-expression, has removed my doubts, though.

I'm not INTp; I only wish I were
(then again, maybe not, since INTps don't seem to have it easy either)

[meatburger]

Nope not INTp

your INFj

You just remind me too much of my friend and his constant dramas

[raisonpure]

Nope not INTp

your INFj

You just remind me too much of my friend and his constant dramas

Yeah, that last post distressed me as much as a Japanese drama. My mother even asked me if I was watching a movie To me, it is a simple matter of talking about the things I care about and not really expecting anything in return, motivated by the desire to just express myself in the hopes that the information will someday be of use to someone.

I don't even mean to be dramatic, but I think some people get the impression that I'm attention seeking when I'm just being myself, as I would be with no other people present. And they seem threatened by me as much as I feel threatened by them, so maybe I attract their attention in an unpleasant way because of what I present. In real life, people usually just become obstacles in the background; their importance determined entirely by their position in relation to me. When I have successfully blocked out people from my view/mind, I act as if I'm the only one on stage as well as my own audience -- breaking down into tears from listening to music in a public setting as if I was in a concert, and not giving a damn what others thought about that. My father was puzzled by this when he caught me in one of these moments, and asked "Are those tears? Why are you crying? What's so touching about a bunch of kids playing the piano? ", but he wasn't offended or threatened. I've encountered people who would either chide me with logic or get the hell away from me after evincing persisting signs of discomfort, though. Others find it plain funny to see me waste all those tissues.