About Wikipedia page Socionics

[matthewbe]

Hello,

It seems that there are sometimes huge difference (mistakes?) among different sources about socionics.
For example: on Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socionics) it states that the type Balzac/critic is associated to LII (Logical Intuitive Introvert)

Logical Intuitive Introvert (LII)

INTj

INTP

Critic / Analyst

Balzac

Intuitive Logical Introvert (ILI)

INTp

INTJ

Strategist / Mastermind

Robespierre

On other sites it says that Balzac/critic is the ILI (Intuitive Logical Introvert)

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...NTp-by-Beskova
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ile-by-Gulenko

I understand that there are different interpretations as socionics is quite complex, I guess, but it confuses me when there are differences on the very very basics like this.

[Radio]

all the introvert types are flipped over on wikipedia for some reason. ignore it, it's bullshit. it's "original research".

LSI = Maxim Gorky
LII = Robespierre
EII = Dostoevsky
ESI = Dreiser

SLI = Gabin
ILI = Balzac
IEI = Yesenin
SEI = Dumas

this is correct.

[mu4]

It seems someone is defacing it or editing it improperly. I fixed it and will watch this page on wikipedia.

Thank you for letting us know.

[EpicKalypze]

Don't be so fast my friends there is math involved!
1)Just because something has always been one way over the other doesn't make it anymore closer to the truth or the facts then Zim's case!
2)As you all can already see I hope is that those ESTj(which MBTI calls ESTJ) are also Logical Sensory Extrovert (LSE) (note: the L_E is the shaded square =Te) so Socionics gave you guys a lowercase j for that (reason) alone! Nothing is different for ISTj (which MBTI calls ISTP) are also Logical Sensory Introvert (LSI) (note: the L_I is that whiten square =Ti) so they also got the lowercase j for their dominating function being a judging type of function.
3)Those web sites that are a hot mess need to do some simple reasoning of their own more often.
4)Social roles shouldn't be the root of confusion here if it is then destroy Wiki see if I care.
5)Anyone can match the type alice's just read the history, however some of the alice could be changed to someone else that would reflect their typed roles in an easier light, as most of them are just writers and actors forcing the readers to work too hard just to see tiny similarities for most of the logical typed alice, they would do better as a CEO, warrior, scientist, ect.

ONE MORE TIME stop undoing things because you think change is never good. Consider their was reason for that change and move in the forward direction by making improvements of your own
follow up here http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...ease-help.html

[Radio]

Don't be so fast my friends there is math involved!
1)Just because something has always been one way over the other doesn't make it anymore closer to the truth or the facts then Zim's case!
2)As you all can already see I hope is that those ESTj(which MBTI calls ESTJ) are also Logical Sensory Extrovert (LSE) (note: the L_E is the shaded square =Te) so Socionics gave you guys a lowercase j for that (reason) alone! Nothing is different for ISTj (which MBTI calls ISTP) are also Logical Sensory Introvert (LSI) (note: the L_I is that whiten square =Ti) so they also got the lowercase j for their dominating function being a judging type of function.
3)Those web sites that are a hot mess need to do some simple reasoning of their own more often.
4)Social roles shouldn't be the root of confusion here if it is then destroy Wiki see if I care.
5)Anyone can match the type alice's just read the history, however some of the alice could be changed to someone else that would reflect their typed roles in an easier light, as most of them are just writers and actors forcing the readers to work too hard just to see tiny similarities for most of the logical typed alice, they would do better as a CEO, warrior, scientist, ect.

ONE MORE TIME stop undoing things because you think change is never good. Consider their was reason for that change and move in the forward direction by making improvements of your own
follow up here http://personalitycafe.com/socionics...ease-help.html

Eh, then that's just your personal viewpoint and that's great, but the wiki article is for the canonical view of socionics as Aushra and co. described. If you want to add your interpretation of socionics types, make a separate section for it titled "Alternative Viewpoints" or something and put it there. It doesn't matter if your interpretation is better, if it's not the canonical perspective it doesn't belong there.

Learn how wikipedia works.

[EpicKalypze]

Eh, then that's just your personal viewpoint and that's great, but the wiki article is for the canonical view of socionics as Aushra and co. described. If you want to add your interpretation of socionics types, make a separate section for it titled "Alternative Viewpoints" or something and put it there. It doesn't matter if your interpretation is better, if it's not the canonical perspective it doesn't belong there.

Learn how wikipedia works.

Ok, I did not know there was more to editing.
If you guys want the default state you better know that the first time I changed Part 4 it was the 4th of July which was even more a hot mess than before I touch anything so I'll leave it to the public view to decide if they want to read lies or what's consistent with the rest of Socionics, it was just simple changes!

Oh, hello their Hkkmr there's something in your Wiki inbox!

[Words]

Kudos on reading it, I think

[EpicKalypze]

Kudos on reading it, I think

Classic Albert Einstein vs Professor moment!

[InvisibleJim]

Please take the time to form a consensus on the wikipedia talk page.

For example, you could put Aushra's Model A in that page and make another for alternate/disputed theories.

[Absurd]

Please take the time to form a consensus on the wikipedia talk page.

For example, you could put Aushra's Model A in that page and make another for alternate/disputed theories.

There is already "one" and is called Smilexian and Hittian Model I think. I've seen the Rattian Model as well.

[EpicKalypze]

Before figuring out about the talk functions of some sort no one told me anything and when I did find it people still did whatever they want without telling me. That's teamwork for ya!

[mu4]

Do not deface the socionics page. I will continue to monitor it, and reverse whatever changes is being done to it which is against socionics canon, if you want to make something new please do it under something other than socionics.

[Scapegrace]

Do not deface the socionics page. I will continue to monitor it, and reverse whatever changes is being done to it which is against socionics canon, if you want to make something new please do it under something other than socionics.

I just laughed my ass off in public.

[EpicKalypze]

InvisibleJim are you an INTJ or INTP? Just to make sure the record's straight.

[InvisibleJim]

InvisibleJim are you an INTJ or INTP? Just to make sure the record's straight.

<--

[EpicKalypze]

Do not deface the socionics page. I will continue to monitor it, and reverse whatever changes is being done to it which is against socionics canon, if you want to make something new please do it under something other than socionics.

And put it where? Will undoing it make it wrong? Did you even logically sort out why I would be wrong? What is the point of...... You........

I thought I said let the public view organize the facts.

Radio please tell him off anyone?

[Esaman]

@EpicKalypze get back on your medication. Wikipedia page is most conservative representation on the subject not a wall for random people to write their ideas replacing each other.

[EpicKalypze]

Oh now I get, I didn't know my place. This hkkmr guy didn't make it any better than before I touch it trusted me! It still needs to relate this website I guess?

Is it possible to have a foundation built on top of faulty logic? If that's true people would pick up on it and act on it as if those around them had the same common sense so sorry!

[Esaman]

@EpicKalypze , you are welcomed to enlighten all the forum members and lurkers by posting your insights and formulations here. You need to practice your english anyhow.

[EpicKalypze]

@EpicKalypze , you are welcomed to enlighten all the forum members and lurkers by posting your insights and formulations here. You need to practice your english anyhow.

Ok, I admit I should've respected english as mush as I did math & science back in the day; so point out some flaws please where here to learn anyway.

@Esaman is LII a INTP or INTJ? Just trying to set the record straight.
Has anything I said made an impact at all.
Why is the ISTP(ISTj) an inspector (Si based) rather then artisan (Se based)?
Does this kind of individual conflict happen often?

[glam]

I thought I said let the public view organize the facts.

the public view from people who know & care about socionics is generally going to be in agreement with hkkmr's edits.

look through any socionics material online, and you will see that the type names most commonly used for sociotypes are in line with the changes hkkmr made. even rough machine translations from Russian socionics sources will show this.

the problem with your view is that i think you are naming the socionics types according to what the supposed MBTI equivalent type is. e.g. you name socionics LSI/ISTj "Crafter / Mechanic" because those names fit MBTI ISTP, the type that the article claims is equivalent to socionics LSI/ISTj.

this idea that people can assume equivalence between socionics & MBTI types has always been controversial, and it sometimes results in disputes such as the one happening now on the Socionics Wikipedia page. many people who study socionics in-depth eventually understand that it's not necessarily accurate to say that socionics LSI/ISTj and MBTI ISTP are the "same" just because they are both functionally called TiSe in their respective systems.

the problem lies in how socionics & MBTI each interpret Jung's original work to determine Rationality/Irrationality (lowercase j/p in socionics code) and Judging/Perceiving (uppercase J/P in MBTI code). socionics pretty much follows how Jung wrote about this dichotomy, while MBTI uses its own interpretation.

there is a good article at socionics.com that explains the confusion quite well; i will quote a few bits from it http://www.socionics.com/articles/mbti.htm

The core of the problem is in Myers deciding to connect J and P with the external world, even though Jung wrote that J and P are independent of E and I. The extrovert types apparently do not suffer just as bad from this mistake.

... the preference for Judgement/Perception was not explored by Jung in his work as well as all the other preferences, so Myers decided to come up with her own Judgement/Perception scale instead. She probably figured, if people use their preferred judging process to order the external (!) world - they are Judging types, but if they use their preferred perceiving process to experience the external (!) world - they are Perceiving types.

Jung: Sensing and Intuition are P functions, always!
Myers: Sensing and Intuition are P functions, but only if they are extraverted!
Socionics: Sensing and Intuition are P functions, always!

Jung: Thinking and Feeling are J functions, always!
Myers: Thinking and Feeling are J functions, but only if they are extraverted!
Socionics: Thinking and Feeling are J functions, always!

Maybe Jungian definition of J and P was not clear enough to be implemented practically at once, but what was absolutely clear is that Sensing and Intuitive types he called P and Thinking and Feeling types he called J.

[silke]

Why is the ISTP(ISTj) an inspector (Si based) rather then artisan (Se based)?

People of both of these types can be inspectors and artisans. There are SLIs who work as managers and coordinators and LSIs who work in acting and design. As quasi-identicals they fill in very similar functions. Their type nicknames have been arbitrarily chosen and you shouldn't use these nicknames as the basis for your understanding of these types.

[EpicKalypze]

Thx glam & siuntal I guess that does clear some parts up as much as it gets to me and others new to Socionics especially ones that have trouble trusting rules made for the sake of others contentment.

[glam]

Thx glam & siuntal I guess that does clear some parts up as much as it gets to me and others new to Socionics especially ones that have trouble trusting rules.

no problem. out of curiosity what type are you in MBTI?

welcome to the forum, by the way. have fun learning more about socionics

[Creepy-male]

Balzac is a horrible Alias to have, a french man with a name that when you improperly pronounce it in English it sounds like "Honor the Ballsack". Great...... I sometimes wish that part of my mind would shut up.

Call it whatever you like its all just people anyways, and this entire "SANCTUM OF SOCIONICS" I don't buy one bit.

[DirectorAbbie]

Is Kalypse that Russian LII who kept saying socionics was math and rambling about boring nonsense? Based on his use of the word "their" I'm assuming English isn't his first language.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Is Kalypse that Russian LII who kept saying socionics was math and rambling about boring nonsense? Based on his use of the word "their" I'm assuming English isn't his first language.

Yaaroslav? Pretty sure he's still around under his old moniker.

[Esaman]

@Esaman is LII a INTP or INTJ? Just trying to set the record straight.

I came to Soconics through MBTI quickly exactly because it was not possible for me to make a disambiguation about which of this two types I belong. I recognized my characteristics in both while MBTI didn't do much to provide and explain fundamental distinctions. Not so with socionics.
Since I believe that INTJ and INTP are stereotypes not types I have no interest in attempting to peg myself in either.
I am INTj and so are you.

Has anything I said made an impact at all.

No. Not any intended impact on the ideas on types.

Why is the ISTP(ISTj) an inspector (Si based) rather then artisan (Se based)?
Does this kind of individual conflict happen often?

Yes, people come to misguidedly mix MBTI with Socionics regularly.
You though are probably the first one who starts with editing the wikipedia page. You are special.

[InvisibleJim]

Is Kalypse that Russian LII who kept saying socionics was math and rambling about boring nonsense? Based on his use of the word "their" I'm assuming English isn't his first language.

Speak no ill of our Glorious Comrade Yaroslaav.

[Beautiful sky]

We need to stop switching Socionics j with MBTI P the reality is that a type in Socionics can test into any type in MBTi. We also need to stop mentioning MBTI all together I think

[InvisibleJim]

We need to stop switching Socionics j with MBTI P the reality is that a type in Socionics can test into any type in MBTi. We also need to stop mentioning MBTI all together I think

Particularly when you are typing, amiright?

[Beautiful sky]

Particularly when you are typing, amiright?

Yes. I should work on that.

[EpicKalypze]

no problem. out of curiosity what type are you in MBTI?

welcome to the forum, by the way. have fun learning more about socionics

<== My type is about right "thurr" (that should make abbie happy) and thank you for welcoming me glam. Now let's follow up on match.com shall we?

Now that I'm on the light of the force I'd like to say I'm sorry to hkkmr for making you think you needed to take up a new over time job.

@Esaman and glam I'm closer to seeing your reasons for taking this route I wasn't aware at how in-depth this different perception of Jung's writings would be.

[Scapegrace]

[Absurd]

Yeah right, as if wikipedia pages aren't really plagued by the spread of funneh info. Not only when it comes to Socionics, academic subjects are edited by admins as well what makes some academicians leave this form of presenting information.

[glam]

<== My type is about right "thurr" (that should make abbie happy) and thank you for welcoming me glam. Now let's follow up on match.com shall we?

no thx!

[EpicKalypze]

We need to stop switching Socionics j with MBTI P the reality is that a type in Socionics can test into any type in MBTi. We also need to stop mentioning MBTI all together I think

If Wiki had the chart exclude MBTI lining up the 16 types of Socionics and MBTI maybe I wouldn't have chosen to do what I thought would be a small simple touch up. There is some relationship, but the social roles did get done sloppy on someones part, of course none of it matters to a huge extent.

[InvisibleJim]

Good catch.

[xerx]

Balzac is a horrible Alias to have, a french man with a name that when you improperly pronounce it in English it sounds like "Honor the Ballsack". Great...... I sometimes wish that part of my mind would shut up.

Call it whatever you like its all just people anyways, and this entire "SANCTUM OF SOCIONICS" I don't buy one bit.

Don't forget "Dumas" a.k.a. Dumb ass.
Don't even get me started on Caesar [salad] and "Jack-off" London.

[mu4]

I don't really think the MBTI code belongs there, there is no direct translation although functionally it can be implied, in practice such a assumption fails.