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    Default Guantananamo force feeding

    According to human rights activity group Reprieve there are currently 120 prisoners in hunger strike at Guantanamo Bay. 44 of them are force fed by the brave and free. The rapper Yasiin Bey aka Mos Def agreed to show how tubes are inserted through the nose all the way to the tummy. As an entertainer he is I believe that he has the capability to act it but intuitively this 2-hour long UN banned practice looks like torture to me.



    Ramadan starts in about a week. Bon appétit!
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    There's a lot of ppl in the US that want to close Gitmo, but the US House of Representatives is controlled by republicans who have blocked every vote to close it down.

    People have been fighting for 5 years since 2008 to close Gitmo, but it hasn't happened due to a Republican majority in the House of Representatives(there are some democrats as well but it's generally a party line vote).

    I've donated thousands of dollars to get this accomplished in campaign contributions but I don't see any way for this to happen without a majority in the house/senate and president who won't veto the bill.

    Do you think the vote matters now?

    Obama can stop the force feeding I think but not sure.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Do you think the vote matters now?
    Maybe it did matter since more Americans are against closing Gitmo than for closing it.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Maybe it did matter since more Americans are against closing Gitmo than for closing it.
    I think most Americans want a trial at least, and I think a lot of Americans want it closed permanently, unfortunately it's true that most Americans don't want it closed. I think the few dangerouse ones can be held safely in maximum security and there are actually 86 detainees cleared for release, yet haven't been released. Gitmo is a horrible situation and akin to the internment camps for Japanese during WWII, the history books will remember this prison as a stain in the history of America.


    http://www.aclu.org/close-guantanamo

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    Gitmo is a horrible situation and akin to the internment camps for Japanese during WWII, the history books will remember this prison as a stain in the history of America.
    Meh, the history books will be too busy remembering the USA as a big fucking stain in history although so far it will be written by the current victor.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Meh, the history books will be too busy remembering the USA as a big fucking stain in history although so far it will be written by the current victor.
    The USA has a relatively good record compared to other countries, such as Germany, UK, Russia, France, Japan, China, Italy, Spain, etc.

    But post WWII the US has taken some of the bad habits of the imperialist powers, especially the UK.

    You can choose to hate America, but that isn't going to make the world a better or nicer place.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Maybe it did matter since more Americans are against closing Gitmo than for closing it.
    People are stupid... and actually believe in terrorism. What the fuck are we supposed to do about it? Try convincing a redneck there aren't really terrorists when his entire news media tells him nothing but otherwise. You could argue with him for years and get nowhere... Almost everyone still believes believes Osama Bin Laden was a real enemy.

    Your patriotic bullshit attitude is not really that different from the rednecks we have around here voting to keep these 'terrorists' locked up for the safety of our ... great american nation. I bet if you lived over here you'd be one of them.

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    Yeah I saw this-I really hate the world at the moment.
    Why can't people (liberals) have more say in what goes on....? If they want to hunger protest, let them.


    on another note... it's a pretty common occurrence where I work, but we tape it to their noses and keep it inside for weeks so we don't have to do it before every feeding; we usually have to tie their hands and feet down beforehand.. some people are champs and just swallow it. I feel like such a monster when we have to do it, but mostly it's because they are unable to swallow after a stroke and we get the patient's or patients family's consent beforehand obviously.

    moral of my little story: it's worse to witness in person...and usually they cough up blood a little bit if they move their head too much b/c it scratches their throat and esophagus.. I can't imagine having to be forced to have that done twice a day.

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    you guys agree on the guantanamo thing. what do you expect to get out of arguing whether or not a negative value judgment should be placed on the united states altogether? polr bs

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    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    you guys agree on the guantanamo thing. what do you expect to get out of arguing whether or not a negative value judgment should be placed on the united states altogether? polr bs
    Most of the forum agrees on the Guantanamo issue and those who don't are probably not going to say anything. I don't feel like nodding together. I just wanted to share the video to the majority, beyond that I have little interest how the majority of the forum doesn't care about me and Hkkmr arguing.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Force feeding is not unheard of in the Western world from what I can see by looking at some people, maybe it's just a case of trying to integrate these guys?

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    'MURICA.

    What a disaster.

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    I saw the video, it was annoying. Overacted, overproduced. Intended to generate an emotional response. I don't like the GWOT or Gitmo or anything it represents, but this video just grated on my nerves.

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    Quote Originally Posted by crazedratfugue View Post
    Your patriotic bullshit attitude is not really that different from the rednecks we have around here voting to keep these 'terrorists' locked up for the safety of our ... great american nation. I bet if you lived over here you'd be one of them.
    I'm against "War on Terror" and my patriotism has nothing to do with supporting state policies.
    Quote Originally Posted by lungs View Post
    attention seeking with a purpose. it's a valid form of protest.
    Gandhi was very successful with it. But I guess Ashton's right when he acknowledges that it's just the kind of press they don't want.
    Quote Originally Posted by Capitalist Pig View Post
    I saw the video, it was annoying. Overacted, overproduced. Intended to generate an emotional response. I don't like the GWOT or Gitmo or anything it represents, but this video just grated on my nerves.
    I agree but the majority needs sentimental stuff like that.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    I'm against "War on Terror" and my patriotism has nothing to do with supporting state policies.
    Given the right propaganda and upbringing you could have been a patriotic american

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    Quote Originally Posted by returnofxenu View Post
    Given the right propaganda and upbringing you could have been a patriotic american
    Given the right propaganda and upbringing anyone could believe in anything. It wouldn't even have been me but a lost twin in the states. This statement is moot.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Given the right propaganda and upbringing anyone could believe in anything. It wouldn't even have been me but a lost twin in the states. This statement is moot.
    So the difference between america and finland is just different circumstances. Then why hate america?

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    Glorious Member mu4's Avatar
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    I dropped $100 bucks at the ACLU and rejoined after letting my membership lapse.

    https://www.aclu.org/secure/join-acl...eaclu_fb_share

    Join the fight!

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    Gandhi was another "saintly" figure who claimed to do one thing but said another and I'm sure his non-violence obliged his racialism. British called him "cunning as a cartload of monkeys."

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    I'm not a conservative or a liberal, and I pretty much hate everything the two parties stand for, but when Obama was campaigning and talking about how he was going to close gitmo and all of the civil liberties democrats and libertarian republicans were all like, whoo hoo, it's totally going to happen, but it didn't. The fact is democrats could've closed gitmo when they controlled both houses and the presidency, but they didn't.

    Authoritarians on both sides of the aisle believe strongly in national security and the godly authority of the federal government. Who voted against closing gitmo? Pretty much everyone....

    http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/0..._n_205797.html

    http://www.dailykos.com/story/2013/0...ms-Went-Along#

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    MURICA.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Aquagraph View Post
    Everything in life is a victim of circumstances and still there is hate.
    Well that doesn't mean it should be that way.


    Oh yeah... I've had a tube exactly like that shoved up my nose into my stomach. He is definitely overacting that. It sucks but it's not torture. They lubricate the thing...
    Last edited by rat1; 07-12-2013 at 06:27 PM.

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    If a tree falls in the forest, it might have rained that day.... Tell that to the rooster crowing in the distance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    Going on a 'hunger strike' is just a form of attention-seeking, similar to someone cutting themselves—or should that be allowed too instead of restraining people?
    attention seeking with a purpose. it's a valid form of protest.

    So no shit someone on a hunger-strike is going to be force-fed. Plus imagine the repercussions if Guantanamo prisoners had died from self-starvation. There'd be accusations that the US was complicit in allowing (or even encouraged) them to die, that personnel didn't engage in "appropriate procedures" in responding to this sort of contingency, that there weren't psychological evaluations done to assure that hunger-strikees were sound of mind, etc. It'd be a political clusterfuck in so many dumber ways than it already is.
    truth.

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    Gandhi wasn't a hippie-dippy pacifist.

    Norman Finkelstein describes it pretty well: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CI7E1vgzCik

    tl;dw: Gandhi's highest value wasn't violence, it was courage. But for Gandhi, the highest courage was non-violence, as well as the most highly effective means to achieve your objectives. The kind of non-violence he espoused, however, wasn't some Kumbaya bs. He literally meant you had to put yourself in the line of fire and martyr yourself as a means of forcing the enemy to back down.

    If you didn't have the courage to do that, then you'd better pick up a gun and fight. Gandhi hated those who recoiled from confrontation, called them cowards, and thought that they deserved to die.

    If your enemy was not responsive to non-violence - if your enemy was Nazi Germany on steroids - Gandhi believed that violence was the only rational method available.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    If your enemy was not responsive to non-violence - if your enemy was Nazi Germany on steroids - Gandhi believed that violence was the only rational method available.
    Bollocks again - Gandhi actually wrote letters to Herr ****** and he wasn't dismissive nor repulsed by him. In letters he remained ******'s friend as he put it even after Germans occupied Bohemia.

    Ignorance is bliss in alpha quadra.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Bollocks again - Gandhi actually wrote letters to Herr ****** and he wasn't dismissive nor repulsed by him.
    Why the hell is this even relevant? None of that changes how he interpreted non-violence. And why would you need to be repulsed by someone in order to consider them an enemy (assuming Gandhi even considered ****** an enemy)?

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Why the hell is this even relevant? None of that changes how he interpreted non-violence. And why would you need to be repulsed by someone in order to consider them an enemy (assuming Gandhi even considered ****** an enemy)?
    Yeah, why is that?

    Let me think for hundred years.

    1. The state you live in (you're White American) gets ran down and occupied by, say, Lindsay Lohan, followed by an introduction of the caste system (Gandhi was in favour of one), where all non-White people go through segregation again, and Gandhi writes a letter to Lind that reads: " it is quite clear that you are today the one person in the world who can prevent a war which may reduce humanity to the savage state."

    2. You're not White American and Lindsay Lohan does create a caste system (after reading Hindu stuff and talking to Hitta in her dreams, the incarnation of Buddha) and Gandhi writes: "it is quite clear that you are today the one person in the world who can prevent a war which may reduce humanity to the savage state". You're aware of this and apply Gandhi's non-violence approach...

    3. Gandhi didn't consider ****** an enemy.

    4. You non-violence approach doesn't stop Lind from shutting down her euthanasia on cripples programme in tiny chat.

    5. War it is. This is a war.


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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    If you didn't have the courage to do that, then you'd better pick up a gun and fight. Gandhi hated those who recoiled from confrontation, called them cowards, and thought that they deserved to die.

    If your enemy was not responsive to non-violence - if your enemy was Nazi Germany on steroids - Gandhi believed that violence was the only rational method available.
    I'll drink to that.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    Gandhi wasn't a hippie-dippy pacifist.
    I think most pacifists would pick up a gun when their loved ones are threatened. Almost everybody believe in violence in the end.
    “I tell you, freedom and human rights in America are doomed. The U.S. government will lead the American people in — and the West in general — into an unbearable hell and a choking life. - Osama bin Laden

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    I'm going to (force) feed you pizza as well, no worries. And all I am saying is, Gandhi offered friendship to people even after the fact some of them allied with their war enemies, against Gandhi's idea of independence, what is damn ironic taking into account one of his alleged friends expounded the same beliefs as Gandhi himself, the other one was a Moslem and Pakistan national hero...

    And it wasn't a "plea letter" as you call it. So Guantanamo, non-violence comes your way damn fast, and pizza.
    OK, we were never arguing about the same thing and you're probably just trolling. I'm not going to waste any further time on this except to say that Gandhi was a highly complicated person with many contradictory elements to his personality.

    For example, he supported the Boer war in spite of being sympathetic to the beleaguered Boers. He argued that Indians must act loyally towards the British Empire in order to acquire a legitimate claim for citizenship. You're free to consult the available scholarship to learn more about Gandhi.

    His theories on non-violence can be studied independently from his other beliefs, which I don't really care about and have no further interest in.

    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    Eh. Nonviolent dissidence only seems effective if under dominion of a relatively open society w/ liberal-democratic leanings (e.g. Western nations). And even then I'd question the efficacy of such methods in a modern technocratic liberal-democracy with robust sociopolitical & judicial institutions for venting/defusing/quelling dissent in a peaceful 'orderly' fashion.
    The whole point of martyrdom is to force the oppressor into revealing his brutality. Gandhi-style non-violent resistance would be least effective in liberal-democracies because the threat of force against protesters is measured or non-existent.

    As for the case of India, it could easily be argued that ****** & Tojo were far more instrumental in catalyzing the process for Indian independence than Gandhi ever was.
    I don't have enough historical knowledge to give any kind of rebuttal here.
    Last edited by xerx; 07-11-2013 at 10:44 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by xerx View Post
    I'm not going to waste any further time on this except to say that Gandhi was a highly complicated person with many contradictory elements to his personality.
    Neither am I going to. You're stuck up in some idealistic dream - Gandhi did and said things that have been politically motivated. Anyway, you just proved my point with that Boer wars quote of yours - it was a blatant act of playing people on many sides and on many sides he failed. That is, he reached for people who he thought are going to "listen" to him and his non-violence approach as if he wanted to sell his concept, but like I wrote, it failed. Have to admit, pretty damn interesting tactical move. You don't argue with facts but feel free to re-write history.

    And yes, I would rather have you "learn more about Gandhi" yourself before you open you bottomless pit to speak, and not only the sweet, cute and lovely stories that may be presented to you in school.

    The whole point of martyrdom is to force the oppressor into revealing his brutality. Gandhi-style non-violent resistance would be least effective in liberal-democracies because the threat of force against protesters is measured or non-existent.
    L U L. I doubt you even know what you're talking about. Seriously, I'm curious, do you? U.S. is a liberal democracy and just going by most Gamma poster on here and more, it doesn't fare very well in that department...

    I don't have enough historical knowledge to give any kind of rebuttal here.
    No shit, I noticed that.
    Last edited by Absurd; 07-12-2013 at 05:53 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Absurd View Post
    Neither am I going to. You're stuck up in some idealistic dream - Gandhi did and said things that have been politically motivated. Anyway, you just proved my point with that Boer wars quote of yours - it was a blatant act of playing people on many sides and on many sides he failed. That is, he reached for people who he thought are going to "listen" to him and his non-violence approach as if he wanted to sell his concept, but like I wrote, it failed. Have to admit, pretty damn interesting tactical move. You don't argue with facts but feel free to re-write history.

    And yes, I would rather have you "learn more about Gandhi" yourself before you open you bottomless pit to speak, and not only the sweet, cute and lovely stories that may be presented to you in school.

    L U L. I doubt you even know what you're talking about. Seriously, I'm curious, do you? U.S. is a liberal democracy and just going by most Gamma poster on here and more, it doesn't fare very well in that department...

    No shit, I noticed that.
    Hey shithead, stop wasting your life writing in indecipherable code that entirely misses the point. And a word of advice: next time you post, try not to inadvertently reveal why you're still a virgin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    Martyrdom is only constructive to an end if backed w/ implicit violence—i.e. if the brutalizers savage a martyr and this incites a hornet's nest of outrage against them, then the martyr has done their job successfully.
    Yep. I think that was his point + possibly causing dissension within the enemy ranks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by mfckr View Post
    I don't disagree… but then I'm one who'd argue that vandalism, terrorism, suicide, murder, insurrection, etc. can constitute fully valid forms of protest as well; albeit forms socially frowned upon of course, cuz like, killing is bad n' stuff y'all. While hunger-striking on the other hand bears more ~noble~ connotations simply because Gandhi—mythologically juxtaposed somewhere between Jesus & MLK in most people's minds—[allegedly] secured Indian independence through this and other methods of non-violent dissidence.
    i don't really build up hunger striking as noble but in a situation where your options are pretty limited like in prison its just a more available choice.

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