Joy's type: ENTj vs ESFp

[Joy]

Expat seems to be the most respected typer who is active here. He suggested that I am Gamma, but thinks I am more likely ESFp instead of ENTj. I can accept the possibility of being Peter's mirror instead of his dual, but it doesn't seem very likely. There are too many things that just don't make sense.

My thought processes fit more with a rationality than irrationality (regardless of how flippant I may be), and I have a hard time seeing myself as an ethical type.

Also, I don't believe I have the strengths or the weaknesses that ESFps do. Not to mention that I was in a relationship with an INTj for almost 4 years. It wasn't a good relationship, but I get along with him better than I do most people. Most people are so... stupid.

Regardless, some people seem to think that my assertions are more like Se than Te... and all of the random polls I make or more of an answer to a Te hidden agenda than anything.

The only real argument I can see for any sort of Fi in me what so ever is that I am always in a serious long term relationship. I've been "single" (but still dating) for maybe 6 months total at the very most since I've been an adult. I've lived with 4 men (not counting room mates).

More to come...

[Joy]

Joy, Please bolden which traits of Se you do not have.

Jung's function: Extraverted Sensing

Socionics function: black sensing - force - volitional sensorics

outward traits of object - shape, old vs. young, worth or cost, appearance, energy of object, strength, readiness, willpower, mobilization

Positive(short range):
Deduction of authority, insubordination, protection, defense, retaliation, counterattack, hardness, upholding of the interests, strong-willed pressure from below upwards, will power, possession;

Negative (long range):
Capture of authority, submission, attack, aggression, attack, the initiative, persistence, insistence, strong-willed pressure from top to down, the statement of the interests due to others, overthrow, weakness, lack of will, mastering.

It's really hard to tell because of chronic low energy and depression. When I'm well, I'm very ambitious and push my way upward, regardless of whatever obstacles I may face. I make great strides toward my long term financial goals.

As far as my attitude about authority (gah I hate the A word), the only people who I ever consider to have authority over me are the owners of a company in which I have accepted a position. Managers are not my bosses. If I have a problem with them, I just do what I think I should do, and if I must, I will go over his or her head to higher management, human resources, the union, the owners, the government... whatever is necessary. I've done this type of thing over scheduling conflicts and whatnot... I do what I do because I have decided to do it, NOT because I am obeying (gah I have the O word).

Willpower... I am not good at getting things done unless there is long term financial benefit. I am absolutely horrible at staying on top of everyday things such as chores, errands, and appointments. I cannot run fast or for any period of time because I have not trained my body to do so. I tried to quit smoking dozens of times before I actually stopped smoking. I have never been able to stick to a diet for more than a couple of weeks. These things all require too much effort.

Now as far as the outward traits of an object... I am a Home Inspector. I am a damn good Home Inspector. During inspections, I look at the entire exterior of buildings, including the roof (often by walking on it ); the entire interior of a building, including checking for water stains on the ceilings and walls, sufficient supply and return vents for the HVAC system, leaking drains and faucets, toilets that need to be re-sealed to the pipe, products which may contain asbestos, mold, the ventilation and insulation in the attic, fire hazards, smoke detectors, windows and doors, gaurd/hand railings, etc; the pluming, including the type of material and condition of pipes, water heater, laundry areas, and whether there are improper installations/repairs; the electrical system, including the presence or absence of GFCIs, miswired outlets, improper installation, bootleg service upgrade, double tapped breakers, etc; the foundation and structure (don't even get me started of everything that this includes); and the heating and cooling systems, including testing equipment and looking for problems such as infufficient combustion air, improper installation, condenser pan leakage, backdrafting, CO levels, cracked heat exchangers, asbestos insulation on ductwork, etc.

I could go on and on...

Basically, my job is to present myself professionally to clients (and a lot of people say they're not sure I even look like an adult) so that they'll be at ease. They are basing one of the largest decisions of their life on what I find and report on in a few hours time. I must be able to easily recognize and thoroughly explain many different types of problems. There is a great deal of technical knowledge involved.

A building is a system not unlike the human body. Changing one thing can cause dramatic changes in seemingly unrelated areas. An example of this would be a new owner using the fireplace frequently and a sudden growth of mold in the attic. There can be changes that take place over years of time, and it often takes experience, knowledge, and ingenuity to piece together these mysteries in a home. It's called building science.

Anyways... I love my job. Is it Se? Is it Te? Is it Ti? Is it Fe? Is it Ne? Is it Ni? I think it's all of the above.



Anyways, if I'm an ESFp, I'm a fuck of a lot more fucked up than I thought I was. What are ESFps good at? Prolly not many things I can call strengths.

Naruto is still my hero though.

[Joy]

okay, so about will power- I do not have physicaly willpower, but yes, I am very very stubborn about getting what I want once I have decided I want it.

I'll post an answer to the list of Se traits in a moment. In the meantime... I had a conversation about socionics with someone I lived with for 3 years and knew for 5 or 6 years...

He read the descriptions for ENTp, ENTj, and ESFp.

charismaticirony (7:35:09 PM): so do you think I'm ENTj?
charismaticirony (7:35:26 PM): a lot of people from the socionics forum still think I'm ENTp and a lot think I'm ESFp
XyroZe (7:35:28 PM): yeah.. im kinda confused to as why youd think you were an entp actuallly
charismaticirony (7:36:36 PM): the reason I thought that was because that's what I tested
XyroZe (7:36:03 PM): from my understanding of socionics you seem to be much more judging than percieving
charismaticirony (7:35:48 PM): wanna read the ESFp description?
XyroZe (7:36:06 PM): kay
charismaticirony (7:36:23 PM): http://www.socionics.com/prof/esfp.htm
XyroZe (7:39:00 PM): yeah, i think you are only like that while drunk

[Joy]

Positive(short range):
Deduction of authority- as in knowing who's technically in charge? yes. as in respecting authority? no.

insubordination- cmon... I've only been written up for that a handful of times..

protection, defense- umm... I guess? That's pretty vague. In general I think physical power is unimpressive at best. I've helped a lot of people verbally and emotionally stand up to others, and I've stoof up for other people a lot too.

retaliation, counterattack- not since I was a teenager. well... I guess some people might tend to disagree. When I am emotionally hurt, I don't talk about it. I either withdraw or make a cold power play. The only time I physically "attack" though is when I like slap someone's ass or pinch his nipples or bite him when he teases me, and that's just playing.

hardness- not sure what's meant by that

upholding of the interests- sure?

strong-willed pressure from below upwards- yes!

will power- I guess...

possession- not sure what this is all about


Negative (long range):

Capture of authority- huh?

submission- NO

attack- see above

aggression,

the initiative

persistence, insistence- when I am trying to get something I really want, yes

strong-willed pressure from top to down- no. I never flaunt technical/authoritive power.

the statement of the interests due to others- huh?

overthrow- huh?

weakness- what kind?

lack of will- when I'm depressed

mastering- not sure what this is all about

[Joy]

http://the16types.info/forums/viewto...r=asc&start=15

[Joy]

And I have a very hard time seeing that my Fi is stronger than my Te, or that my Ti is weaker than my Si! I have pretty damn weak Si.

[Joy]

btw, I can see the INTp as my dual just because of my distaste for dealing with Fe

[Joy]

okay, question about Se:

Does Se use physical power to get what it wants, or can it be any sort of power, as long as it's effective?

[Kristiina]

I barely know anything about which functions you use.

Without using random type descriptions or statements ("my Fe is weak, my Te is strong"), could you please explain in your own words why you think you are/were ENTj. Also, don't use quadra values, because they tend to be misleading (IMO, quadra values are almost impossible to write down without using socionics terms, but socionics terms are still up to debate in most cases.).

The best way to do that is to write your own functional analysis from Te to Ne (ENTj 8th function). Don't mention the function name more than once - e.g. when you write about Ni, don't use "Ni" or in any sentence. Replace it with your own words.

How you should do it:

program- write about what you consider Te.
creative - write why you think you use it as your creative function.
role - ...
PoLR -
dual-seeking -
hidden agenda -
-
-


When I was looking through your post history, I just saw you saying that you either use or don't use some function. (The claims changed when you changes type). I barely found any full sentences that justify the statements.

[Joy]

lol! you must be a super speed reader to have read the entire contents of all of my posts!

I'll work on what you asked

[Kristiina]

I've read quite many of your posts. I paid more attention to your several older type threads... I thought I would find something from there, but I just saw short sentences of you saying that you have some functions and you don't have some other ones (with no real explanation).

NB! When writing the functional analysis, use your OWN WORDS! Don't copy anything from anywhere, because it would lose the value of the description. (I could probably see any function in any position if I really tried.). You know enough about functions not to depend on vague and uncertain function descriptions on various websites around Internet.

[Joy]

here is what I have so far

Factual, applicable knowledge. Read what I wrote about Home Inspection. Also (and more importantly), I use Te in making decisions such as where to buy a house. I studied statistics about various areas. I read census data about % of homes that are own occupied, average income of the residents, average age of the residents (important because neighborhoods turn over and change when a lot of the people who live there are old), crime rates, etc. I also studied the city planner's and department of neighborhood services' plans for various areas. I then picked a specific area and looked at dozens of buildings there, getting an idea of the market values. Many people criticized me for choosing the area I did (it's the most racially and economically diverse neighborhood in the third most segregated city in the world), but I refused to listen to any of their warnings or wishes and proceeded to find a house that was priced tens of thousands of dollars less than market value.

I learn as much as I can and then put that knowledge to use. In talking with others about factual data, I look at the information in terms whether or not it has practical use. I don't like to deviate from the a point until I feel the original matter is settled. It's like I'm talking about whether we should make cake or pie and other people start talking about the ingredients before we even establish what it is we're making.

Example:

Cherry was showing off her new navel jewelry to a bunch of people at work. I told her to make sure she keeps it clean because she'll be more likely to get an infection with her new jewelry. She got irritated and said "No Joy, you're wrong" (this particular person and I had a history of being irritated with eachother, and this particular conversation is a good example of why). I started to explain why I made the statement I just did, and she cut me off by yelling "No Joy. You don't know everything about everything." I said, "No, I don't. There's a lot of stuff that I don't know anything about. But I don't make stuff up. I know that it's more likely to get infected because I spent two months learning about body piercing full time. Jewelry with that many crevices tend to trap bacteria, and it's harder to clean because it's not like a ring that you can spin around." She laughed and said, "Okay, maybe you do know about that" and went on to ask me about the best way to clean it.

Another example was when my ex boyfriend's dad was talking about how it's easy to overeat when you have spaghetti because it's so good. I told him it could also be because pasta expands 3 times it's size in your stomach, and he got this annoyed look on his face and was like, "I don't care." lol

I've also always done well on tests at school because it's easy for me to absorb and utilize facts. Story problems were never difficult for me because of this. I also learn math problems best when I see examples. You can explain how to do it all day and it won't do much good (part of the reason is because it's difficult to pay attention), but if I can briefly study a couple of example problems, I'll get it right away.

At work, I've always been able to find efficient ways of doing things. For example, when I worked at Burger King, everyday I saw the manager cleaning the fryers. It would take him a couple of hours. He got moved to the night shift, and cleaning the fryers became my responsibility. Within a week I had a system of doing it that took less than half an hour. It was easier, too. I did a lot of things like that at my waitress job, too. I'd come up with better ways of getting side work done well. Some people got irritated as if I was being invasive, but many of the ways I did things were adopted because they were simply better. When I was a delivery driver, the manager changed the shifts that the drivers would work because I suggested a different way of doing it and she saw how it would more effectively cover the necessary labor while cutting down on hours. When I was bartending, the owner adopted a few of my suggestions on how to run the bar more efficiently, including the way drinks are rung up. He changed the register to the way I suggested it be changed.

I've been told that I always have to be right. It's not true. I don't care about WHO'S correct... I care about WHAT'S correct. I really don't mind being wrong at all.

Side note: I am more confident in than I am any other function.

I do not live in the present. I live in the past and the future. I have an many, many occasions had a feeling that something would happen, and then it did happen. I had an idea of how things could unfold, and I am very often correct. I think the world in a timeless manner. It's almost like I'm looking back at the present from the future. Big decisions are easy to make, easier than small everyday decisions like what I should have for dinner. Most notably, I can see changes in the real estate market and understand the significance of equity and appreciation as they apply to me far better than most people do. I guess I don't have much to say about this one...

I am an excellent salesperson... sometimes. It is very difficult for me to consistently provide the emotional stimulation that others expect of me (unless it's close family, but that's different). When I am trying to accomplish something, it's not difficult for me to read other people's emotions and motivations and say and do things that either make them feel comfortable or uncomfortable (depending on my goal). When I do this, inside I am groaning and rolling my eyes and resent the fact that humans need that kind of interaction in order for me to get what I want. Whatever, I can learn the language of the natives if that's what I need to do to get around. I am warm in dealing with clients, but it is a distant warmth. It irritates me when people behave emotionally (and I'm not talking about moods). I have always dreaded holidays, particularly Christmas, because I knew that I would be expected to contribute to the warm atmosphere and feel good conversations. I would be expected to hug people and look happy when I open my presents. I would have to act like I'm happy to see people (I do love my relatives by the way... that's not the issue). It's just so draining to be in that type of situation.

I am horribly out of tune with my body. I worked the entire time I had mono because I didn't know I had mono (I knew I was sick, but I didn't realize I was THAT sick) and worked for a week with whooping cough. I have always had a hard time sleeping. My eating habits are inconsistent. I often don't know that I'm hungry until I realize that I have no energy or I get a headache. I have passed out a handful of times due to dehydration and lack of the proper amount of rest. I have also had a few issues with taking too much stimulants and losing too much weight. People around me would scold me and try to warn me about the direction my health was headed, but I didn't see their point (at least not at the time). My hygiene... ummm... well, let's just say that I am mostly aware of my appearance because of professional reasons. I mean, I take much better care of myself than a lot of people do, but it's for reasons of practicality. I feel absolutely no motivation to make (or keep) my surroundings attractive. I do enjoy good food though. Sometimes I get almost obsessed with getting a certain food if I decide I want it. I also over indulge when I go out to eat or have whatever that food was the I wanted, to the point of feeling uncomfortable for the rest of the night.

[Joy]

btw, I realize that some of my descriptions cross over into other functions a little bit. deal with it. functions aren't used one at a time, so in describing a situation, I have to mention the use of other functions as well.

[XoX]

Most notably, I can see changes in the real estate market

Nice descriptions. I still don't know your type but I voted TeNi for a change However I have hard time seeing deejay as ISFj Now can your huge see if this is complete crap or are we experiencing a huge global crisis and a "new world order" kind of scenario soon...I have some investments even some risky stuff going on and my supposed is going crazy with all the warning sings...I have to buy a house in about two years and I can't afford to lose everything I really don't need s*** to happen now...

"LEAP/E2020 therefore estimates that these sectoral losses of confidence will converge in the course of June 2006, and induce the acceleration of the crisis process. The acceleration should elapse over 3 to 6 months and convey seven concrete consequences:

1. accelerated collapse of the Dollar
2. internal social and political crisis in the US
3. Iran/USA/Israel military conflict
4. increased global inflation
5. stop of the process of trade and economic globalisation
6. accelerated emergence of new regional/continental « blocks »
7. rebalancing of world assets' comparative value.

The passage to phase 3 (so-called « impact-phase ») of the global systemic crisis process will occur when at least four of the previously mentioned factors will have taken place. Simultaneously, it is possible, during the acceleration-phase already, to distinguish some of the tendencies that will shape up the future global system, and therefore to start initiating the decisions and policies likely to prepare a post-crisis future."

[Joy]

lol that sounds horrible

I spoke with an ENTp in the chat who is absolutely certain that the real estate market in the US is going to collapse, which will set off a chain reaction that will end up causing a world wide financial disaster. If that happens, everyone will be so screwed that it won't matter that you lost a $200,000 property, or ever millions of dollars. Worst case scenario: you're fucked with the rest of the world, and you have to start all over again.

There are always people out there predicting this kind of crisis. Don't let it affect your investments. If you assume that something bad will happen, you'll end up 70 years old, saying "I remember when a house in that neighborhood was only $200,000. I thought of investing. Why didn't I invest? I would be wealthy now if I had only started investing a few decades ago."

All markets have small ups and downs. Those are the changes to pay the most attention to. If newly constructed homes are sold before they're completed, it's the time to wait or sell. When those houses are sitting empty for a long time... it's time to buy. These are the types of market changes that it's wise to pay attention to and make investments based on.

I don't see how any good can come of expecting or fearing some huge disaster. It's better to invest and lose a lot of money and have to start over than to have never invested at all. Failure is part of the process of success.

[UDP]

How many people have you fallen in love with, Joy?

[Joy]

define love

there were a good number that thought they were in love with me... besides them, hmmmmmmmmmmm half a dozen? a dozen? again, it's difficult to decide when infatuation or fondness or platonic love becomes romantic love.


this has nothing to do with type

[UDP]

Have you consistently longed for someone else when you were with someone you thought you loved?

[Joy]

yeah, before I was with the last person I was with. I always used to get crushes while I had a boyfriend. I was young.

I have never cheated though. I feel very strongly about that.

[Joy]

Kristiina, I don't think it will clarify anything for me to get into the unconscious functions. What I say is merely my conscious perception of my unconscious self. Also, getting into the 5th and 6th function would end up with me talking about Peter, and thought a greater percentage of people here believe he's ISFj than believe I'm ENTj, it would bring that controversy into this thread, which is not necessary and wouldn't accomplish anything.

[FDG]

The best way to do that is to write your own functional analysis from Te to Ne (ENTj 8th function).

Something no real ENTj could be able to do, actually

[FDG]

Have you consistently longed for someone else when you were with someone you thought you loved?

Useless! It happens to many people, and it's generally realated to the level of happiness of the relationship. The fallen in love thingy is just as useless.

[FDG]

lol that sounds horrible

I spoke with an ENTp in the chat who is absolutely certain that the real estate market in the US is going to collapse, which will set off a chain reaction that will end up causing a world wide financial disaster. If that happens, everyone will be so screwed that it won't matter that you lost a $200,000 property, or ever millions of dollars. Worst case scenario: you're fucked with the rest of the world, and you have to start all over again.

There are always people out there predicting this kind of crisis. Don't let it affect your investments. If you assume that something bad will happen, you'll end up 70 years old, saying "I remember when a house in that neighborhood was only $200,000. I thought of investing. Why didn't I invest? I would be wealthy now if I had only started investing a few decades ago."

All markets have small ups and downs. Those are the changes to pay the most attention to. If newly constructed homes are sold before they're completed, it's the time to wait or sell. When those houses are sitting empty for a long time... it's time to buy. These are the types of market changes that it's wise to pay attention to and make investments based on.

I don't see how any good can come of expecting or fearing some huge disaster. It's better to invest and lose a lot of money and have to start over than to have never invested at all. Failure is part of the process of success.

Thanks for the little lesson lolz.

BTW the housing market is not going to fall: it's simply going to stagnate for the next 10 years so that the inflation will re-adjust the values

[Joy]

yeah, that is an example of the type of typical market highs and lows I was refering to

[FDG]

yeah, that is an example of the type of typical market highs and lows I was refering to

Not really. It's actually an exception to the rule. A market adjustment through stable nominal price and lowering real value can happen IFF there are two synchronous happenings:

1)A big bubble-market
2)Low interest/inflation rates

Since usually bubbles are accompanied by increasing interest rates...the conjuncture is rare.

[Kristiina]

Joy, I seriously don't know how to reply to your functional analysis. I have read it twice and I tried to make sense of it again, but each time I read it, I get chills. I have participated in practically all ENTj discussions in this forum for months now and I recognize bits and pieces from many discussions. Your functional analysis is a combination of everything that has been said about ENTjs by various people, including myself. It even has things that you disagreed with at first.

Si-PoLR is not very convincing. It describes half the population.
Fe-role describes half the population but from the point of view that copies ENTj Fe discussions. PS! You got it a bit wrong - ENTjs don't hate interacting with relatives or opening presents. FDG just meant that he seems introverted when he's around relatives.
Ni creative starts with quoting me. The rest of it confuses me.
Te - no comments.

[Expat]

okay, question about Se:

Does Se use physical power to get what it wants, or can it be any sort of power, as long as it's effective?

is the win-at-any-cost function, using any sort of power that will be effective in the particular situation.

Herzy described it well in the "authority" thread:

It depends if the particular authority is worth being respected, and to what degree.

I'm really good at figuring exactly how much I can get away with under a particular amount of authority. I figure out exactly how much the person is willing to let slide by, whether they notice stuff, and if they do get pissy about me not respecting them, how much damage they'll do in return. These are all important factors to take into consideration.

types use that function in different ways, depending on how they evaluate their position:

1) if they are in clear, unquestioned position of power over others: they will be friendly, jokey, relaxed and even understanding bosses. They see no reason to overly reaffirm their authority. If that authority is questioned, then, they will be brutal.

2)if they are in a situation where the levels of power aren't clear, and there is scope for rivalry and dispute: that's when they become bullies, intimidating, aggressive.

3) if they are in a situation where others have unquestioned power over them: the types recognize that there's no point in fighting a battle they will lose, so they resort to ass-kissing. There is no better ass-kisser than an type in a position of clear inferiority of power (assuming that they conclude that their boss will be susceptible to ass-kissing)

4) if they want something from you that has to be surrended voluntarily - like an agreement to buy something from them or to go to bed with them - they will resort to a variation of (3), that is, telling whatever bullshit is necessary.

In short, is about doing-whatever-it-takes-to-get-what-you-want.

What you described here:

As far as my attitude about authority (gah I hate the A word), the only people who I ever consider to have authority over me are the owners of a company in which I have accepted a position. Managers are not my bosses. If I have a problem with them, I just do what I think I should do, and if I must, I will go over his or her head to higher management, human resources, the union, the owners, the government... whatever is necessary. I've done this type of thing over scheduling conflicts and whatnot... I do what I do because I have decided to do it, NOT because I am obeying (gah I have the O word).

That is also a use of , understanding exactly which resources of power you can use to get what you want.

And I have a very hard time seeing that my Fi is stronger than my Te, or that my Ti is weaker than my Si! I have pretty damn weak Si.

Well but it's difficult to compare with , and even with .

My reasons for suggesting that ESFp is the type that fits you best -- not perfectly - is that your functional strengths, as perceived by myself, and described by you, indicate > , > and > . I would even say > but this is far less clear to me.

So, I do think Gamma fits you best, and from among the types, ESFp is the one with the least amount of problems IMO.

Regarding your relationships, also with an INTj - - well you've said yourself that it was a time of particular poor health for you. I know it sounds lame but you've also mentioned this factor many times.

[Joy]

Joy, I seriously don't know how to reply to your functional analysis. I have read it twice and I tried to make sense of it again, but each time I read it, I get chills. I have participated in practically all ENTj discussions in this forum for months now and I recognize bits and pieces from many discussions. Your functional analysis is a combination of everything that has been said about ENTjs by various people, including myself. It even has things that you disagreed with at first.

Si-PoLR is not very convincing. It describes half the population.
Fe-role describes half the population but from the point of view that copies ENTj Fe discussions. PS! You got it a bit wrong - ENTjs don't hate interacting with relatives or opening presents. FDG just meant that he seems introverted when he's around relatives.
Ni creative starts with quoting me. The rest of it confuses me.
Te - no comments.

what are you talking about???

FDG? I don't even remember him saying that. I also don't remember anything you've said about Ni. I'm sorry, I don't have time to do a study of all of the posts done by all forum members claiming to be ENTj in order to write this. I knew your response would be something ridiculous. I assumed it would be something like "OMG that's' so ESFj (or some other nonsensical type judgement)! If you can't see that, maybe you need to go back to socionics kindergarden. Someone smart tell her why she's not ENTj, please." I was telling Anndelise all about it... she said she couldn't imagine that you'd say something so off the wall in response to this.... Your actual response is just as ridiculous as the imagined one. I'm glad you asked me to write that though. It was fun, and I think useful as well. Regardless of whatever response you may come up with.

If you've read so many of my posts, you should know that I've always stated that type of thing about Christmas and holidays. I didn't make anything up. This is the first time I've ever really written a description like that, and I did it the way it should be done.

Ni creative starts with quoting me.

I do not live in the present. I live in the past and the future.

I'm sorry. I didn't know you have a copy right on "I do not live in the present. I live in the past and the future." My apologies. Are you seriously trying to say that in your best attempts to criticize what I wrote, the most convincing thing you could come up with was "You sound too much like other ENTjs"?

Fucking grow up.

[Kristiina]

Calm down Joy. No need to get all agitated.

[Joy]

okay, question about Se:

Does Se use physical power to get what it wants, or can it be any sort of power, as long as it's effective?

is the win-at-any-cost function, using any sort of power that will be effective in the particular situation.

oic

Herzy described it well in the "authority" thread:

It depends if the particular authority is worth being respected, and to what degree.

I'm really good at figuring exactly how much I can get away with under a particular amount of authority. I figure out exactly how much the person is willing to let slide by, whether they notice stuff, and if they do get pissy about me not respecting them, how much damage they'll do in return. These are all important factors to take into consideration.

types use that function in different ways, depending on how they evaluate their position:

1) if they are in clear, unquestioned position of power over others: they will be friendly, jokey, relaxed and even understanding bosses. They see no reason to overly reaffirm their authority. If that authority is questioned, then, they will be brutal.

2)if they are in a situation where the levels of power aren't clear, and there is scope for rivalry and dispute: that's when they become bullies, intimidating, aggressive.

3) if they are in a situation where others have unquestioned power over them: the types recognize that there's no point in fighting a battle they will lose, so they resort to ass-kissing. There is no better ass-kisser than an type in a position of clear inferiority of power (assuming that they conclude that their boss will be susceptible to ass-kissing)

4) if they want something from you that has to be surrended voluntarily - like an agreement to buy something from them or to go to bed with them - they will resort to a variation of (3), that is, telling whatever bullshit is necessary.

I do not relate to any of this at all. I would rather get fired than kiss anyone's ass. I first noticed this in myself when I was 16, and it hasn't changed. I will not resort to friendly insincerity to make a good impression on an authority figure. I also care little about being in charge... I just don't want to obey others.

In short, is about doing-whatever-it-takes-to-get-what-you-want.

What you described here:

As far as my attitude about authority (gah I hate the A word), the only people who I ever consider to have authority over me are the owners of a company in which I have accepted a position. Managers are not my bosses. If I have a problem with them, I just do what I think I should do, and if I must, I will go over his or her head to higher management, human resources, the union, the owners, the government... whatever is necessary. I've done this type of thing over scheduling conflicts and whatnot... I do what I do because I have decided to do it, NOT because I am obeying (gah I have the O word).

That is also a use of , understanding exactly which resources of power you can use to get what you want.

What would an ENTj do if he had a problem with his boss that couldn't be resolved through talking with his boss?

And I have a very hard time seeing that my Fi is stronger than my Te, or that my Ti is weaker than my Si! I have pretty damn weak Si.

Well but it's difficult to compare with , and even with .

My reasons for suggesting that ESFp is the type that fits you best -- not perfectly - is that your functional strengths, as perceived by myself, and described by you, indicate > , > and > . I would even say > but this is far less clear to me.

So, I do think Gamma fits you best, and from among the types, ESFp is the one with the least amount of problems IMO.

oic

Regarding your relationships, also with an INTj - - well you've said yourself that it was a time of particular poor health for you. I know it sounds lame but you've also mentioned this factor many times.

true. I still think he understands me very, very well though. eh well. I don't tihnk intertype relations should be used to type people anyways.

[Joy]

Calm down Joy. No need to get all agitated.

it doesn't bother me if my reasoning or intelligence is criticized. it irritates me when people accuse me of lying, especially in such a pathetic way. sometimes I say things that are meant to be sarcastic, and when people call me on those, it amuses me. this is different though. I wrote about my life as sincerely as I could, and you suggested that I made it up.

[Joy]

expat, I think my flippancy and power issues come from growing up with very very strict and controlling parents and having to grow up way too soon. I don't think the way I buck authority is a typical healthy type thing.

Last night I smoked weed and I was laying in bed trying to fall asleep and it occured to me: I'm too old to get high more than a few times a year. I realized that all of the stuff I've had problems with... being late to appointments, poor house keeping, etc. have all been some sort of issue with defiance. I think I developed a bit of a peter pan complex... I grew up way too young, and I resented that, so I was trying to hang on to childhood somehow by refusing to take respobsibility for some of the adult responsibilities in my life. I'm ready to be an adult now (lol it only took me till 25! that's okay... there are A LOT people never grow up... I'm not doing so bad).

[Expat]

I do not relate to any of this at all. I would rather get fired than kiss anyone's ass. I first noticed this in myself when I was 16, and it hasn't changed. I will not resort to friendly insincerity to make a good impression on an authority figure. I also care little about being in charge... I just don't want to obey others.

Ok. Perhaps what I said applies better to ESTps. That's the behavior at work I have observed.

What would an ENTj do if he had a problem with his boss that couldn't be resolved through talking with his boss?

Please note that what you described - understanding the tools of power at your disposal - is a manifestation of use, not necessarily that you are a type.

As to your question now -- I don't know. Whatever was possible in the circumstances.

[anndelise]

For the record, this:

I was telling Anndelise all about it... she said she couldn't imagine that you'd say something so off the wall in response to this....

was in direct relation to this:

I knew your response would be something ridiculous. I assumed it would be something like "OMG that's' so ESFj (or some other nonsensical type judgement)!"

More specifically, I was saying that I did not think that Kristiina would say that it was written like/implied an ESFj or such.

[Kristiina]

Calm down Joy. No need to get all agitated.

it doesn't bother me if my reasoning or intelligence is criticized. it irritates me when people accuse me of lying, especially in such a pathetic way. sometimes I say things that are meant to be sarcastic, and when people call me on those, it amuses me. this is different though. I wrote about my life as sincerely as I could, and you suggested that I made it up.

I sincerely think you were telling the truth from your point of view. But I don't think you realized that your truth seems distorted to me, because I have read so many descriptions and posts about this topic.

I don't think you were lying to us, I think you are sure about what you said, but it doesn't make it the truth.

Sorry if I made it seem like I thought you were deliberately lying.

[Joy]

Kristiina, you may stop.

Anndelise, yeah... sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Expat, thank you.

[XoX]

I spoke with an ENTp in the chat who is absolutely certain that the real estate market in the US is going to collapse, which will set off a chain reaction that will end up causing a world wide financial disaster.

Nice work feeding my fears

If that happens, everyone will be so screwed that it won't matter that you lost a $200,000 property, or ever millions of dollars. Worst case scenario: you're fucked with the rest of the world, and you have to start all over again.

That would be pretty weird If it goes to that then I will call FDG and ask him to be our tribe leader. I believe at some point in past he mentioned he would be happy in that kind of position. He just have to get used to cold weather.

There are always people out there predicting this kind of crisis. Don't let it affect your investments. If you assume that something bad will happen, you'll end up 70 years old, saying "I remember when a house in that neighborhood was only $200,000. I thought of investing. Why didn't I invest? I would be wealthy now if I had only started investing a few decades ago."

It is just that every damn indicator seems gloomy. Companies are doing ok but everyone talks about real estate bubble, stock bubble, gold price is absolutely totally high which usually means big investors don't seem to trust any normal market instruments instead putting their money safe on gold, silver etc. US Federal Reserve for some reason stopped publishing information regarding M3 "currency indicator" some months ago (I don't think they have ever done that before?) so evaluating real value of dollar is somewhat guess work now (I'm not expert on this though), middle-east is in flames, iraq is a mess, oil price is going up, european economies are stagnant, US debt is huge and growing, consistent threat of terrorism all around the globe, iran & n.korea playing games with nukes, .... I don't know what to think anymore except DOOOM ...

All markets have small ups and downs. Those are the changes to pay the most attention to. If newly constructed homes are sold before they're completed, it's the time to wait or sell. When those houses are sitting empty for a long time... it's time to buy. These are the types of market changes that it's wise to pay attention to and make investments based on.

That's a good practical advice. I have to look into that kind of stuff.

I don't see how any good can come of expecting or fearing some huge disaster. It's better to invest and lose a lot of money and have to start over than to have never invested at all. Failure is part of the process of success.

Good advice too Except we really really need to move to a bigger place in about two years so somekind of collapse of all investments right now would be extremely annoying Maybe I just take my chances

Oh, the typing...there are many "ENTjs" now writing in this thread. I have some trouble seeing you all as being the same type. Someone or some of you is/are in error. Perhaps it is the subtype differences or cultural differences or gender differences but as far as I'm concerned you all give somewhat different vibes

[Joy]

The only people in this community that I believe are undoubtedly ENTjs are Expat and pezzonovante.

It's hard to tell with Ashton though because at least 90% of his conversations cut others down. I would imagine I'd have a different picture of him if he wasn't so hateful. I've had good conversations with him, but I'm never sure how "him" he's really being in those conversations. I see a whole lot of Se in him and a little bit of Fi.

Benny is a Se type (prolly ISTj or ESTp?). It's hard to tell because his Se pretty much drowns out everything else.

FDG may very well be ENTj, but there are times when it seems more likely that he's ESTj or ExTp (the latter based on purely private conversations with him, so I wouldn't expect people to agree).

Kristiina is some sort of Beta.

[Benny]

The only people in this community that I believe are undoubtedly ENTjs are Expat and pezzonovante.

It's hard to tell with Ashton though because at least 90% of his conversations cut others down. I would imagine I'd have a different picture of him if he wasn't so hateful. I've had good conversations with him, but I'm never sure how "him" he's really being in those conversations. I see a whole lot of Se in him and a
little bit of Fi.

Joy. You're more hateful than Ashton. You're always going on about this or that. Ashton's just flinging out shit, whereas you seem to have some kind of "need" to be a bitch.

Benny is a Se type (prolly ISTj or ESTp?). It's hard to tell because his Se pretty much drowns out everything else.

Bullshit. My Se does not drown out everything else. I can't have any real conversations with you, without you deciding that "I'm completely wrong about you, and so is everyone else, and no-one understands you." or something to that vein - and it's a waste of time. You just seem so irrational, in a non-productive way. And thus, I don't care about finding any kind of logic in what you say, because it's just twisted and misfounded anyway.

FDG may very well be ENTj, but there are times when it seems more likely that he's ESTj or ExTp (the latter based on purely private conversations with him, so I wouldn't expect people to agree).

FDG, me, and Ashton can all talk to each other pretty freely. If one of us was ESTJ, another ESTP, and another ENTJ then that would not be the case.

Kristiina is some sort of Beta.

And of course I can't take this seriously. It just seems like a "And I'm better than you" kind of comment. The kind that people say when they're losing, and don't have a valid arguement, and try to boost themselves with pride.

Joy, for all your incestuous whining, what I gather from you most, is that you're hypersensitive, and frivolous.

Sure there may be some content somewhere. But most of it's complete and utter bullshit.

So if you can deal with all these personal vendettas that you have, and get back to the subject at hand. Then maybe, you'll be able to be a rational type.

[Kim]

Bullshit. My Se does not drown out everything else. I can't have any real conversations with you, without you deciding that "I'm completely wrong about you, and so is everyone else, and no-one understands you." or something to that vein - and it's a waste of time. .

Actually, Joy, this I happen to agree with. You often resort to this, which I think is not indicative of a Te-type and can be quite frustrating.

FDG, me, and Ashton can all talk to each other pretty freely. If one of us was ESTJ, another ESTP, and another ENTJ then that would not be the case.

I think this is also important to consider. When Ashton, FDG, and Expat have Te conversations in the chat or on the forum, there seems to be a great deal of understanding and "being on the same page." Apart from the age and cultural differences, they have the same type of Te argument style (yes, yes, Ashton uses Se a lot, but that is just him being stupid
. Pay attention to when he uses Te). That means they look at facts, they always have something up their sleeve, they will present the facts in a way that suits their purpose and they never admit that they are wrong. They all have rather impressive ways of finding a roundabout way to always end up one ahead, which is very ENTj. I have really not seen you use Te that way, which is one of the reasons why I doubt that you are ENTj. In addition, Ashton, FDG, and Expat get along very well with INTps and the conversations between them and INTps are very effortless, which is also indicative of the three being TeNi.