IEIs/INFps and aptitude in mathematics

[darya]

This is advanced math in American system? This was obligatory material for everyone in high school where I'm from...

Exactly my thoughts, this and more is obligatory material for every 17 yo. That said, I absolutely hated math - had good grades with lots of learning, but I never got what the hell it's about or how it works. Also zero interest in it.

My IEI friend is a pro at it, as well as at physics and all natural sciences . I'm better at writing and languages.

[Suz]

what can i say, the american pre-college school system is retarded...

but i actually did take calculus in high school (single-variable) and struggled with it there too ... the teachers sucked though. I actually switched classes mid-way through the year to an easier version of it, which also had a better teacher, and managed to scrounge out a B (despite very diligent study). Tried taking statistics in high school worst class ever!! hated hated hated hated it!!!! It didn't help that the teacher was taking statistics at a local university while trying to teach the class .

[Shazaam]

A lot of professors are actually narcissists. They have no real empathy and so they suck at teaching. Because they are unable to formulate things in a way where the other person will understand.

[strrrng]

I always did well in math, but it never interested me past a basic, conceptual level. philosophy's more my thing.

[bolong]

I'm very good at figuring out relationships between numbers. I was superb in algebra. But I have a very difficult time knowing the face value of the number, if the overall quantity is getting bigger or smaller, spatial stuff. Overall, I'm pretty slow and not that good at math.

[Suz]

I'm very good at figuring out relationships between numbers. I was superb in algebra. But I have a very difficult time knowing the face value of the number, if the overall quantity is getting bigger or smaller, spatial stuff. Overall, I'm pretty slow and not that good at math.

I resonate a lot.

[Aylen]

I'm naturally very good at math and have been since I was a child, but after slogging through the stultifying American educational system I eventually became burned out and developed zero interest in studying it for its own sake. The tedium of being forced to show one's work for every fucking problem when most of it can be worked out far more rapidly in one's head i.e. seeing the answer instantaneously and intuitively, as well as having to work at the same pace of my peers and the set curriculum was tremendously boring. Other than using it as a supplement for other fields of study that require a bit of it I could give a rat's fuck about math. My ILE brother tends to enjoy that process much more than myself and pursued a math heavy career.

This was my biggest problem. I could get the answers right in my head but I either did not or could not show my work. It has been awhile but I remember it being an issue in school. I had a similar issue with diagramming sentences, like in 3rd grade, but that was easier when I got to make it a 3D art project. I hated having to show my work in anything. I thought they should just understand how I reached my answer. heh I had (have) a problem with structure and organization, even though I believe I value both. It usually feels like too much effort.

[Suz]

This was my biggest problem. I could get the answers right in my head but I either did not or could not show my work. It has been awhile but I remember it being an issue in school. I had a similar issue with diagramming sentences, like in 3rd grade, but that was easier when I got to make it a 3D art project. I hated having to show my work in anything. I thought they should just understand how I reached my answer. heh I had (have) a problem with structure and organization, even though I believe I value both. It usually feels like too much effort.

Complete opposite here... i suck at doing math in my head...near-total paralysis...

[Aylen]

Complete opposite here... i suck at doing math in my head...near-total paralysis...

Well these days I use a calculator (path of least resistance) when I have one and I am not above using my fingers to keep track of larger sums. I just don't let people see me do it. It is more like a light pressing of my fingers into my palm to keep track. I keep my hand closed the whole time. Somehow the feel of my fingernail pressing into my palm can jog my memory when I am foggy. I am pretty good at keeping a running count, in my head, at the grocery store and I am usually no more than $2 or $3 off the total price of everything in my cart.

I bet it looks like a mess in my head when I multiply because I don't do it the way I was taught. In fact I use several different methods to arrived at the correct answer and then I double check it to make sure I am right. After all that I will ask whoever is near if I am right. Like adding up a tip is super easy but I still ask people if I got it right before I give it. There is always this underlying doubt that I may not have it right. There are also times I don't feel like pulling up my calculator app and it is just faster to do it in my head. I am talking about the basic everyday math here.

Edit: I have a good friend who I recently typed LSI. One thing he likes to do in the middle of a phone call is ask me to calculate numbers in my head. It is to see how "sharp" I am, he says. Whenever he does this I get like laser focus and can do it rather quickly. I am usually much slower but I think I like to impress him which makes me focus harder. He is pretty cool and one of my, very few, fans/cheerleader, so I don't want to disappoint him. He always posts, on another forum, that I am intelligent so I have to live up to his standards. hahah I like the challenge.

[inumbra]

there is no reason imo why any type can't be good at math. perhaps the majority of mathematicians are logical types, but that doesn't mean there aren't ethical types who are good at math. i just don't think it makes sense to limit anything, any ability, to any grouping of types. that's silly. i mean "types" are just ideas while your abilities with math are verifiable. why put more stake in something not so verifiable?

[Faun box]

If a predilection to math is inherent in IEIs (unlikely), I'm not one.

[Orest Reinn]

I guess I'll settle for being INFp for now.

Maths was my favorite subject for most of my early education. I loved it for being so easy and for not requiring me to do any learning to get good grades. I treated each test as a fun mental exercise that only tried my smarts. I won summer vacations in a maths contest twice while I was in primary school and all teachers saw me as particularly gifted.

I first started to struggle in high school. For the first time my smarts weren't enough to pass tests and I was confused. It was telling me I would actually need to study, to memorize some equations, theories and algorithms - use external knowledge - to succeed, but I couldn't accept it. It was no longer the same maths I used to love. I was still trying to break every single task to littlest pieces, which made me very ineffective.

I guess it hit my PoLR hard.

I eventually gave up and accepted things for what they were. I went through the college maths without much excitement, just treating it as another boring thing to learn.
That concludes my love story. No happy end this time.

[Suz]

If a predilection to math is inherent in IEIs (unlikely), I'm not one.

Dont worry... i really dont think its type related in the least. Math is very teachable. *Enjoying* math might be type-related though, i'm not sure. But you dont have to enjoy math to be able to do it well; detail orientedness and a precise approach helps a lot with math prowess.

[Kill4Me]

Dont worry... i really dont think its type related in the least. Math is very teachable. *Enjoying* math might be type-related though, i'm not sure. But you dont have to enjoy math to be able to do it well; detail orientedness and a precise approach helps a lot with math prowess.

Algebra was my worst subject in high school. I wanted every girl in the class....including the teacher.

[Suz]

Algebra was my worst subject in high school. I wanted every girl in the class....including the teacher.

sorry to hear your raging hormones clouded your ability to learn

[Kill4Me]

sorry to hear your raging hormones clouded your ability to learn

it didn't. i never needed to prove my ability to learn.

[Suz]

I literally can't do math because I suffer from dyscalculia. This is an actual brain condition where people can't do math. To this day I still can't divide or multiply, I can't read clocks, and I even struggle to count money. Even grasping simple mathematic concepts is extremely difficult for me. My brain literally just draws a blank. It's been the cause of great stress, anxiety and embarrassment in my life. It's even the reason why I didn't go to college. I used to want to kill myself because of it. It's a horrible mental disability to have for an otherwise capable and intelligent person. I will never have kids for fear of passing it on. When ever I think about it I want to cry, it's affected my life that negatively.



If I didn't suffer from this then I might like math. I'll never know.

that's interesting... it's like dyslexia but with numbers instead of words...

[MensSuperMateriam]

it didn't. i never needed to prove my ability to learn.

Does this mean you forced others to learn for you?

[Fay]

I am horrible at math...

[thiefacrobat286]

i'm good at algebra but not much else.I'm skilled at producing and manipulating algorithm, but I don't study calculus or trigonometry or anything.

[summerprincess]

I'm soon bad at math! Omg. I think logical subtypes are generally better at math but that obviously doesn't apply to everyone.

[NFR]

I loooove math (after cats)! Set theory, topos theory n logic r like my things!!

Tho I still ironically sucked at it...my math major in uni has a shameful cgpa ...at least I graduated tho!

[leakingdreams]

This is advanced math in American system? This was obligatory material for everyone in high school where I'm from... Well, not all of linear algebra at high school level, but parts too. Loved Math, especially probability (high school) and linear (at uni - it was the least boring part of my studies actually ).
Out of my friends and family - people who struggled with it and plain stated a dislike of Math were IEI, SEI, EIE and SEE. They still managed though, just with more complaints along the way


I'm inclined to agree cause Math is basically logical thinking and humans in general are capable of that.
(Although the best Math teachers/lecturers I've personally met were LIIs...)

Exactly my thoughts, this and more is obligatory material for every 17 yo. That said, I absolutely hated math - had good grades with lots of learning, but I never got what the hell it's about or how it works. Also zero interest in it.

My IEI friend is a pro at it, as well as at physics and all natural sciences . I'm better at writing and languages.

Now, don't get me wrong; our system is far from advanced, but the stuff you got in HS is likely much lighter in comparison. For example, a lot of us go over some organic chemistry in HS, but it's not to the level of organic in college. Unless I'm missing something? Do you guys have specific multivariate calc courses or is some thrown into the mix of a grander class?

Anyway, I have a degree in math and still feel I suck at it. I just don't do well with numbers, but I'm good at conceptual stuff. My type? IEI/ILI/SLI (one of those)
From what I've seen, it's not type related until you get to proofs. Ns IMO tend to be better at proofs.

[silverchris9]

Personal experience: really good at it until 5th grade long division, deeply offended by the concept of having to show my work, reasonably good through algebra 1 (though my algebra 1 class was a joke), okay at geometry (LOVE proofs, very TiNe, although my affection for them was greater than my skill), got the worst grade I've ever gotten in anything in Algebra 2 (just purely mechanical---Algebra 2 was all learning skills and methods that later got applied to interesting problems), and then did awesome in Pre-Calc and awesome again in Calculus, where I took the most difficult class of the ones offered (AP BC Calc for those who had AP in their high schools).

Basically, math only made sense to me as a game of: which tool should you apply to this situation. So when it got to calculus and it was like... okay, I know I have x, y, z tools to solve this derivative/integral/series, which one do I pick---then it was super fun. When it was Algebra 2 and it was all... learn these ways of solving problems. No we won't tell you what they're for. I was SO mad. When I had to learn matrices (which are actually quite interesting and useful!) it was like... could you give me a dumber, more meaningless process to learn. I am kind of sticking to my theory that knowledge has to be relational for it to be meaningful for me, and when I hated math, it was because I couldn't create any relationships to a larger system or between a bunch of different skills that were all potential tools.

I think, also, that this is indicative of the "any type can learn math, it just has to be presented in a way that works for you" theory. Like, to a certain extent it's your brain's raw ability to understand abstractions in general and numbers in particular. And past that it's if the information is presented in a way that's useful to you + how motivated and disciplined you are.

Like I remember that I had an AWESOME teacher for pre-calc (which is why I took calculus with the same teacher) and even during pre-calc, she would say like: this is the thing you're learning now, but look, in the future that's going to be a tool so that you can do this much cooler thing that actually relates to reality in this very interesting way, etc. And she really encouraged us to a) connect the abstractions of math to reality (which was also easier bc most of us were taking physics at the same time), and b) play around with the concepts. Like she had this thing that I always thought about about how you can use math to define whether or not a car has stopped at a stop sign, because technically even if you don't do a real stop, if you do a "California stop," the velocity of your car passes through zero when it rocks backward, and like...

I dunno it was a VERY beta-friendly (or maybe just me-friendly) way of relating to math as a game you could play with this set of abstract ideas but then WOW by this weird side route it actually relates very closely to reality. I think that's the most IEI-friendly way of conceptualizing math. I think when it is taught as a series of independent, unrelated operations that have no real unifying principle or structure, IEIs are very likely to check out, bc that information is not very useful or interesting to the way that we (tend to) think.

[Creepy-]

Define algorithm for me.

An algorithm is the path you need to go from A to B, A being the place where you have a problem and B the place where you solved the problem. Everything can be explained with metaphors.

Also, an IEI interested in Mathematics might believe that numbers are his friends not his enemies. He also will not see equations but parties!

[Creepy-]

there is no reason imo why any type can't be good at math. perhaps the majority of mathematicians are logical types, but that doesn't mean there aren't ethical types who are good at math. i just don't think it makes sense to limit anything, any ability, to any grouping of types. that's silly. i mean "types" are just ideas while your abilities with math are verifiable. why put more stake in something not so verifiable?

Type is your potential. I had some cheese in the fridge a week ago. I had the potential to eat it. Now it's rotten.

The same with archetypes. ILI's have a huge capacity to understand systems and to learn things sporadically and incomplete. They are serious procrastinators and inactive ghosts and in mathematics you need to train at least 500 hours in the last year in order to be proficient.

[Creepy-]

I literally can't do math because I suffer from dyscalculia. This is an actual brain condition where people can't do math. To this day I still can't divide or multiply, I can't read clocks, and I even struggle to count money. Even grasping simple mathematic concepts is extremely difficult for me. My brain literally just draws a blank. It's been the cause of great stress, anxiety and embarrassment in my life. It's even the reason why I didn't go to college. I used to want to kill myself because of it. It's a horrible mental disability to have for an otherwise capable and intelligent person. I will never have kids for fear of passing it on. When ever I think about it I want to cry, it's affected my life that negatively.



If I didn't suffer from this then I might like math. I'll never know.

Do you want to buy an iMac for only 500$? I bought one recently but found something even better and would like to sell it.

[inumbra]

Type is your potential. I had some cheese in the fridge a week ago. I had the potential to eat it. Now it's rotten.

The same with archetypes. ILI's have a huge capacity to understand systems and to learn things sporadically and incomplete. They are serious procrastinators and inactive ghosts and in mathematics you need to train at least 500 hours in the last year in order to be proficient.

the wisdom of newbs?

eta: omg. i only now actually understood your post. yes, i agree with you, more or less... in the over-arching spirit of it. being a "logical type" isn't everything when it comes to math.

i apologize for my initial response. i was being paranoid.

[Suz]

An algorithm is the path you need to go from A to B, A being the place where you have a problem and B the place where you solved the problem. Everything can be explained with metaphors.

Also, an IEI interested in Mathematics might believe that numbers are his friends not his enemies. He also will not see equations but parties!

I'm not IEI but this is actually how i approached some of my favorite subjects also. Organic chemistry comes to mind -- making the cute electrons jump around connecting the chemical compounds into happy couples or merry groups. And study parties!!!

[Creepy-]

I'm not IEI but this is actually how i approached some of my favorite subjects also. Organic chemistry comes to mind -- making the cute electrons jump around connecting the chemical compounds into happy couples or merry groups. And study parties!!!

Although ESE have inferior Ti, their dominant Fe makes them able to do something for long time after they get a taste of it. So their have a higher chance to become a bit better than average at something because of their passion. Your dual, the LII needs you to motivate him to do practical stuff, to tell them how great their going to be if they make that, how they are going to make the world a better place and so on.

ILI's need an SEE to be able to achieve anything.
LSI's are also very unmotivated due to their inferior Fe so they have no motivation even if their energy levels are high. They need a Fe dominant as well to use their potential.
LIE's will not learn math if they don't see a practical application in it.

On the other hand SLE's are able to learn anything because they're quite smart from my experience and also have a ton of willpower.

[Sol]

There is no a great problem with a school course of mathemathics for any type. Maybe even standard not specialized University course too. INFP may to be good teachers of these courses. But it's doubtful for INFP and any ethical type to have serious achievements in this region, - such should to be very rarely as needs more work.