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Thread: Guides for dual pairs: attracting an ISFj-ESI

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    This description is weird, though it may be accurate, it really sounds like ESIs are not the people I'd like to seduce. Too difficult, I don't get really get a thrill out of chasing girls who resist me, I despise any kind of games. I mean, yeah, for long term relations I think ESI is better suited to me than SEE but really for long term relations you have to find the right person, I find SEE "easier" to get and I'm not at all put off by that.

    Alot of women think men are turned on by having to chase them, that may be true for men with Se ego. Same for women with Se ego I assume, and Se egos often seem to think everyone enjoys that stuff.

    Honestly, the women described in the OP description really sound like a waste of my time (no offense), not to mention a real bitch (again no offense, but c'mon now), yeah the "payoff" is nice but it's nice with SEE too, I don't have time or energy for bullshit so why choose the route of torture when you could get something almost as good from certain other types?

    This type of game just isn't for me.

    Edit: Sorry for this rant. Not sure where all this angst came from.
    Last edited by Uncle Ave; 02-19-2018 at 05:03 PM.

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    IDK honestly, people and then relationships are far more "complicated" than this description. I've never met a difficult ESI, but that's probably because I'm difficult myself and it takes a lot of time for me to open up to someone, so ESI people seem just as gentle and yet far more proposing than I am, which for me is the best because I'm not usually the one to invite people over, make the first step, engage in conversations.. etc. There are exceptions, sure, but it's always been the ESIs in my life to approach me, first. I was more than willing to let be guided by them because they strike me as confident and just bitchy enough to get what they want, which is something I don't have and envy a good deal in other people.

    Confronting the 2 closest people in my life that are ESIs, they're completely different from each other, approach people differently and go after different things because of different likes/dislikes. In no way though I'd feel like suggesting anyone to adopt a strategy to approach this type.
    My current ESI bf was very straightforward with me, he was a bit of a bitch with girls and when we met he was surrounded by all these girl friends of him of whom I was jealous. So I had to put it clear that I liked him a lot, but yeah, I think we just both felt like we had something special and it took us 2 weeks to get into a serious relationship... that's not much, is it?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    IDK honestly, people and then relationships are far more "complicated" than this description. I've never met a difficult ESI, but that's probably because I'm difficult myself and it takes a lot of time for me to open up to someone, so ESI people seem just as gentle and yet far more proposing than I am, which for me is the best because I'm not usually the one to invite people over, make the first step, engage in conversations.. etc. There are exceptions, sure, but it's always been the ESIs in my life to approach me, first. I was more than willing to let be guided by them because they strike me as confident and just bitchy enough to get what they want, which is something I don't have and envy a good deal in other people.

    Confronting the 2 closest people in my life that are ESIs, they're completely different from each other, approach people differently and go after different things because of different likes/dislikes. In no way though I'd feel like suggesting anyone to adopt a strategy to approach this type.
    My current ESI bf was very straightforward with me, he was a bit of a bitch with girls and when we met he was surrounded by all these girl friends of him of whom I was jealous. So I had to put it clear that I liked him a lot, but yeah, I think we just both felt like we had something special and it took us 2 weeks to get into a serious relationship... that's not much, is it?
    Yeah, I realize the description is pretty subjective, it's written from the pov of the authors who are from some random Russian forum so it's not like there is anything researched here, just opinions.

    So I realize my rant was just that: a rant. Tbh I've tried getting with one ESI, but it didn't work out...though I tried. It was complicated because she spoke very kindly to me, and sometimes casually flirty but appearantly not interested romantically. I mean, I'm fine with that but as an Fi dom you guys have to understand how difficult it is for a Te dom to discern what is unspoken...because even the different possibilties enter my mind (for ex: "she is interested, but is waiting for me to make the first move" vs "she isn't, she just doesn't tell me to not hurt my feelings" vs "she's playing games" etc) I can't really determine a person's intent in romantic relations: my own filter/bias/fears fog up the mirrors, so to speak.

    I never asked her if she was interested in me romantically, though. One time a third person reported to me that she had said she couldn't date me because she was with her boyfriend at the time. Doesn't tell me anything about her feelings, though.

    Actually, I sense deep down this girl did a good job of handling me if she wasn't interested because she was able to make me understand her intent without hurting me, she probably did the best she could to handle the situation.

    But that is just one person. I admit my experience with ESIs in this matter somewhat limited, I don't know how accurate the OP "advice" is, and I agree with you that such advice isn't useful anyways, the best "strategy" is to be yourself.

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    It's good to rant let it out! I appreciate your ESI even more for sticking with the guy and not letting you know how she felt about you tbh... bonus point to moral integrity*** And I've never realized up to now how flirty ESIs can be... but truly, dem lil bitches eheh

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    I mean, I'm fine with that but as an Fi dom you guys have to understand how difficult it is for a Te dom to discern what is unspoken...because even the different possibilties enter my mind (for ex: "she is interested, but is waiting for me to make the first move" vs "she isn't, she just doesn't tell me to not hurt my feelings" vs "she's playing games" etc) I can't really determine a person's intent in romantic relations: my own filter/bias/fears fog up the mirrors, so to speak.
    I'm on the same boat as you on this... I'm usually oblivious to all these subtleties in the relations game. But for some reason, I could read this ESI like an open book. But in general, I read ESIs much better than other people, for some reason.

    I never asked her if she was interested in me romantically, though. One time a third person reported to me that she had said she couldn't date me because she was with her boyfriend at the time.
    Looks like your ESI had stronger principles than mine.

    and I agree with you that such advice isn't useful anyways, the best "strategy" is to be yourself.
    That's right. That's what I did, and it worked. Every ESI that has shown interest in me has not been the recipient of any sort of act on my part, just my real self (which may vary at the time though, the way I behaved like as I described was because I was going through a somewhat "antisocial" phase, I guess. During this period I attracted other kind of chicks too). In any case, IMO, it's always best to be yourself in relationships (but this does not completely exclude to play the "courting" game). But ESI's are going to be invariable attracted to LIE's and viceversa. Or at least I'd like to think so. Socionics is true after all, right?

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    Quote Originally Posted by lavos View Post
    I'm on the same boat as you on this... I'm usually oblivious to all these subtleties in the relations game. But for some reason, I could read this ESI like an open book. But in general, I read ESIs much better than other people, for some reason.



    Looks like your ESI had stronger principles than mine.



    That's right. That's what I did, and it worked. Every ESI that has shown interest in me has not been the recipient of any sort of act on my part, just my real self (which may vary at the time though, the way I behaved like as I described was because I was going through a somewhat "antisocial" phase, I guess. During this period I attracted other kind of chicks too). In any case, IMO, it's always best to be yourself in relationships (but this does not completely exclude to play the "courting" game). But ESI's are going to be invariable attracted to LIE's and viceversa. Or at least I'd like to think so. Socionics is true after all, right?
    I think it is.

    I find mysef attracted to ESIs though I dunno how attracted to me they are? I've never had a romantic relationship with an ESI.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    or you can put it like this: if you need advice on how to approach/flirt/make an impression on someone, that's not your dual, or more simply that's not the person you should have a romantic affair with.

    even more simply, if you need time to create an image that is appealing to the person you're interested in, you'll be in a constant state of deceit, and stress. love comes naturally.
    Love and duality are not natural and therefore seamless. If that were the case there wouldn't be a section on "Recommendations for Dual Pairs" and divorce would and estrangement would not exist.
    Life, Love and relationships are hard, not natural. People are broken, and they wear masks and emotions can nullify biology, while fear can force us to bury best intentions and authenticity. Everyone carries both stress and deceit and are often their own worst enemies. It's only love if it is easy is overstatement. Life is a play and we are all ACTORS and many are too afraid to reach for the center stage and stay in the wings. The only true natural states are flight or fight. Most run and hide.........that's natural. It's natural to not face ourselves or show it to others.

    Everyone is usually doing the best they can.........which is not the same as doing their best. Fight or Flight? Which is less painful? Most seek the safer Flight......it's easier and it's natural.

    "Should I be my true self or should I hold something back to protect myself so I don't suffer pain?" I'll PLAY it safe and act NATURAL instead."

    The only people who act authentic and tell the truth are children, drunks and angry people Children haven't learned yet to wear a mask. Alcohol and anger drop our defenses and we slip up and take off our masks. Typology is a guide and a map but most of us will always be lost or choose not to read the instructions. Our masks are as natural as the air we breath. I am as full of shit as anyone here. I'm reaching in the darkness as well and trying to do better. Trying to mitigate pain, and not always being my best. Not trying to manipulate others requires us to show our true selves to those we are not completely sold on yet. It's a dance with a savage whose base instinct is to buck and run. People hurt us.
    ESI are stone cold realists who hide deeper in the cave than most. They only stick their necks out to strangers who give them space and freedom to choose for themselves. They don't trust those who give their hearts away quickly. I never know exactly what to do with an ESI but somehow I know what not to do. I have to show restraint and patience which is against ever fiber in my body. I am impatient and touchy and have to steady myself in the moment. I don't think Duality is natural. I think it is a compromise between two people who begin to recognize the other person and want to a peek under the mask. Often people don't coordinate their efforts and frustrate each other.
    One duality description mentions that ESI/LIE must fully understand each others motives before duality is possible. Two very self reliant and uncompromising types getting together is a bitch, never natural and seamless. It unfolds quickly once there is some trust. Getting to that point is hard.
    Last edited by hatesyardwork; 02-20-2018 at 09:36 PM. Reason: 1

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatesyardwork View Post
    Love and duality are not natural and therefore seamless. If that were the case there wouldn't be a section on "Recommendations for Dual Pairs" and divorce would and estrangement would not exist.
    Life, Love and relationships are hard, not natural. People are broken, and they wear masks and emotions can nullify biology, while fear can force us to bury best intentions and authenticity. Everyone carries both stress and deceit and are often their own worst enemies. It's only love if it is easy is overstatement. Life is a play and we are all ACTORS and many are too afraid to reach for the center stage and stay in the wings. The only true natural states are flight or fight. Most run and hide.........that's natural. It's natural to not face ourselves or show it to others.

    Everyone is usually doing the best they can.........which is not the same as doing their best. Fight or Flight? Which is less painful? Most seek the safer Flight......it's easier and it's natural.

    "Should I be my true self or should I hold something back to protect myself so I don't suffer pain?" I'll PLAY it safe and act NATURAL instead."

    The only people who act authentic and tell the truth are children, drunks and angry people
    you're right I guess. love is just about doing all the right moves that will attract the person you're interested in, and keep playing the act until forever. 'cause life is hard and so is love and so everyone must play it through and pretend until they make it, and then even beyond. at least they'll have achieved what they want, and even if they won't achieve anything, at least they won't be losers, because that's what you are when you fly. right! fight!

    sorry I don't agree with any of this

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    by the way, hates, I probably expressed myself very poorly, but I didn't imply that natural means only positive things. the only thing I wanted to highlight is that it's pointless to make up a show for someone, if you do, that's a doomed relationship. I'm aware we play parts, "live to be the show and gaze o' time" and all that stuff, I know life is hard, I know love is hard, as well. it takes effort, it takes time, it takes energy and drama and tragedy, but in no way it should take "fakeness". if it does it's simply not love, which is exactly what I meant.

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    Just, the ESI has to be interested in the relationship as well. Then it's a matter of convincing her / him of something she/ he actually wants. If there is no real attraction the whole machinery doesn't make much sense.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    If duality requires putting on a mask and acting outside of your element then what even is it and why does anybody want it...you people make no sense

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    I read ihate's post as saying the work is in taking the mask off, because life foists all sorts of unnatural habits upon us

    it seems like some are reading it as saying the work is in wearing one in order to attract a dual, which I agree would be wrong

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    I read ihate's post as saying the work is in taking the mask off, because life foists all sorts of unnatural habits upon us

    it seems like some are reading it as saying the work is in wearing one in order to attract a dual, which I agree would be wrong
    He's arguing against a post that says it would be wrong

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    I think of it as like potentially helpful advice not as something I must do; if I read it and I think it sucks I just ignore it and chalk it up to the writer having less good an understanding of the issue than me, but sometimes it helps me consider things I hadn't. I think that kind of consideration generally helps relationships unless they were already perfect, in which case I probably wouldn't be reading relationship advice. I can totally see how Fi dom would just be so far ahead so to make such advice inherently offensive and/or useless

    edit: on a personal level I like reading it just because its one more socionics related thing, so its sort of an intellectual exercise. its interesting to me too in a "oh so this is how LSI wants to be treated" kind of way, keeping in mind I cant always fall back on my natural patterns in order to not conflict with some people. so i guess I want to romance everyone that probably sounds really manipulative but its really not, i just want to communicate and get along with people if I can

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    If duality requires putting on a mask and acting outside of your element then what even is it and why does anybody want it...you people make no sense
    Acting a bit outside of your element can bring some growth. But I agree that putting on a mask shouldn't be necessary. There has to be attraction though...
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I can totally see how Fi dom would just be so far ahead so to make such advice inherently offensive and/or uselessn
    that just looked extremely Fe to me I was "lol wut", and Se. actually the LIE I know could be able of the same thread of thoughts. Not a Fi.

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Acting a bit outside of your element can bring some growth. But I agree that putting on a mask shouldn't be necessary. There has to be attraction though...
    Yeah I'm not so tied to some ideal of authenticity that I think people should never change or something, and people who expand my perception and can get me to change my mind without a battle of wills are my favorite. But it's an organic thing. It's there or it's not.

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    The thing with duality is that if you read various of the most "pro duality!! rainbows!!" sources from socion, you'll just happen to think "alright this is the precise description of how it feels when you fall in love". the thing is that i've fallen in love with people that are not my socionics duals, and the effect was precisely the same, aye.

    i tend to agree better with the descriptions of duality that state that it's actually an initially troubled journey where you have to balance what to give and take, because that's actually what love is about, apart from the initial infatuation. compromise is a decisive component of love, but here, i believe that duality should make this deal the least painful, because what we give that the other seeks is actually ourselves. not a mask.

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    yeah totally, I think that captures the broad dynamic, and then each dyad has their preferred language in describing that phenomenon. So to them compromise is like the exact opposite of what compromise means to the ears of a conflicting dyad, but its because they already subconsciously compromise in all the ways the other dyad doesn't and their conscious work (and therefore language) centers on the inverse aspects, such that to take the opposing sides advice would essentially be destructive were the words applied literally to the wrong dyad. in other words, each group is focusing on their own struggle and the broadest dynamic is one of compromise but constrained within the shared psychological values of the dual pair, so compromise with your conflictor involves actually putting on a mask in some way (super ego is social control--masks are conformity to such pressure). so all this talk of taking off masks or wearing them is a product of how we view the language and what it would mean were were using it. such that it is no surprise that the advice for one dual pair is repugnant to another because it sounds like "putting on a mask to win your dual" because thats precisely what you'd be doing to win your conflictor and precisely what you do to compromise with society. but what constitutes putting on a mask or taking it off is relative to the people in question

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    Learning to adapt to the sort of person you think you should learn to adapt to just seems kinda codependent. It's different than meeting a specific person and consequently learning things about yourself.

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    If your mask is natural then you don't need a guide on how to wear it........

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    Gulenko talks about how elements can extinguish themselves, for example when Hamlet suffers from bouts of Fi he tortures himself, so I think the idea is if you're Hamlet raised in a Fi valuing environment you're prone to getting in your own way. a guide that tells you to be yourself, albiet abstract and somewhat paradoxical, that tells the actor to act and not be "authentic" [1] is actually the best thing for them. that anyone needs a guide at all is the basis for the priesthood/psychology in general. the bottom line is its just not that easy for people to be healthy and so people use words to try to help the situation but what is the panacea for one person is poison for the another. its fair to detest the weak for being weak, since it would be wrong to tell for whomever that is the best thing for them not to be that way, but the broader principle is that there are different ways to be oneself. in fact that is the essence of what personality is, different ways for people to be. masks are when one personality adopts a personality other than what one is because the environment demands it. to tell someone to drop the mask to find the person most comfortable to relate to is normal then in light of the knots people get twisted into by society. i think that's the idea at least. ESI is defined as preserving their individuality in the face of society no matter what, so to tell them to drop anything is sort of redudant and thus not really relevant to them, but it may be relevant to someone. in other words ESI defaults to "natural" relations, thus any advice is seen as artifice and therefore a move in the wrong direction, but some need a guide to get there, in the same way ESI might need a guide for other things, like how to science or whatever. in other words this is the Fi version of the Ti dom being "I don't need to read this guide I already know how this thing works" etc. anyone who likes the cold is a walrus, etc

    [1] the problem is language fails because what be authentic and be yourself mean can ostensibly mean the same thing, but actually point to different things in this context in order to be useful. theres a switch from Fi to Ti in here. authenticity or be yourself can be loaded with Fi patterns of behavior when what is meant is for the actor to be oneself is to be authentically inauthentic, or another way to put it is, do whatever gets them focused on Fe not Fi, "artificial emotions" not "natural" ones (and certainly not "natural relations"). so the Ti "guide" is helpful to Ti valuers in getting them into a Fe space, where they might be self defeating by being in a Fi space. the same words are toxic to Fi dominants because for them to make that switch would be death, inasmuch as they identify themselves with their base function. so it seems like bad advice to take Ti "advice" on how to relate to oneself or others, but it has to be contextualized within the specific psychological particulars of where its coming to who its aimed at. I think the general difficulty of this task is why life in general is fraught with conflict. I feel like if people realized this there would be far more tolerance, but at the same time more tolerance isn't an unmitigated good so its probably for the best most people don't recognize this, because I think it would just mean we'd all be in a delta frame of mind, and the idea is that ultimately dies out from boredom and lack of reproductive drive. I think this kind of knowledge is what Jung is talking about when he says that the discovery that evil is in many ways inside us in the form of projections is a shattering experience because it upends everything we knew about the world until that point. in other words, not only is tolerance good, but its also bad, and so things are always in a process of transformation and good and evil are relative labels we put on the trajectory we prefer but which ultimately undoes itself in the end (Enantiodromia). and that original sin is being born into this inescapable condition of existence
    Last edited by Bertrand; 02-20-2018 at 11:28 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ooo View Post
    by the way, hates, I probably expressed myself very poorly, but I didn't imply that natural means only positive things. the only thing I wanted to highlight is that it's pointless to make up a show for someone, if you do, that's a doomed relationship. I'm aware we play parts, "live to be the show and gaze o' time" and all that stuff, I know life is hard, I know love is hard, as well. it takes effort, it takes time, it takes energy and drama and tragedy, but in no way it should take "fakeness". if it does it's simply not love, which is exactly what I meant.
    No problem. I understand your point. I know authenticity is easier, but people have to trust first.

    I always click with EII somehow and things are very easy. Trust is easy and authenticity is the natural when there is comfort and rapport. Can't defend that statement with socionics because frankly I haven't thought to investigate how differently you both use Fi, I just know ESI are very different. I don't have a typology explanation only to say ESI are much less open than EII in my experience and that is probably correlated to Fi/Se vs Fi/Nei. It's an assumption so it's not truth, just truth from my experience. Perhaps you could explain it with scholarship or experience. I rarely investigate outside of Gamma to be frank. I know I am naturally attracted to Fi/Se types so I focus there.

    I read some article once about Gamma NT's and Delta NF's having natural rapport though I don't remember the details of why that is. I didn't question it, I knew it was true from experience.

    Appreciate any insights. I know the importance NF's place on authenticity. You guys wear your hearts on your sleeve and wearing masks is an affront to your egalitarian core values. Not everyone is an NF

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    I read ihate's post as saying the work is in taking the mask off, because life foists all sorts of unnatural habits upon us

    it seems like some are reading it as saying the work is in wearing one in order to attract a dual, which I agree would be wrong
    @Bertrand
    Yes Thank you. I was trying to say we are looking for the one we can take the mask off for.

    Trying to close an ESI is like running as a 3rd party candidate in the United States. You are probably going to lose but those that stick it out (ESI) will support you to the end and will be principled.

    I have no idea why I like prickly guarded women.

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    yeah I totally get it. they're obviously not in it to be nice to everyone so it means when they do let you in, they can be counted on and they mean it. I feel like Fi mobilizing Fe polr is very similar in that regard to Fi base Fe ignoring
    Last edited by Bertrand; 02-21-2018 at 08:11 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    If your mask is natural then you don't need a guide on how to wear it........
    Your mask is not your true nature. It's a metaphor for the walls we all build and the point being we lower the walls for a chosen few.

    IRL I care little of what others think of me, I kind of move at my own pace and make my own wake and I expect others to get out of my way. I just don't signal my deepest vulnerability to others. I hide it, so my mask is natural.

    How many of us signal our vulnerability to all others unashamedly?????

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    I find mysef attracted to ESIs though I dunno how attracted to me they are? I've never had a romantic relationship with an ESI.
    SEE unfolds easier, that is true. because they are very outgoing. ESI don't approach until they decide to. They are the ones who keep a polite distance in social circles. They are hard to know. An unambiguous look of disdain is their calling card. When they like you or trust you they soften somewhat. It's a subtle but stark difference when they like you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bertrand View Post
    yeah I totally get it. they're obviously not in it to be nice to everyone so it means when they do let you in, they can be counted on and they mean it. I feel like Fi role Fe polr is very similar in that regard to Fi base Fe ignoring
    Yep you nailed it.
    They have a modesty and a quiet dignity that I find attractive.
    They don't look or act promiscuous in fashion or manner. Buttoned up. Or at least that is the mask they wear.


    Not to be in it to be nice to everyone is well stated.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatesyardwork View Post
    Your mask is not your true nature. It's a metaphor for the walls we all build and the point being we lower the walls for a chosen few.

    IRL I care little of what others think of me, I kind of move at my own pace and make my own wake and I expect others to get out of my way. I just don't signal my deepest vulnerability to others. I hide it, so my mask is natural.

    How many of us signal our vulnerability to all others unashamedly?????
    I guess i don't see it as separate from true nature when self preservation instincts are as natural as anything. Some people are guarded, some people reflexively act tough, some people act cute to disarm others, whatever, it's a mask but it's natural enough to me if it's what comes naturally... essentially i think I don't disagree tho, I mean the process of getting closer to someone involves shedding those barriers.

    But I don't think it can be compared to adopting a persona you read about in a guide? Because that's extremely superficial. Meaning it's not reflexive behavior or anything. I mean it isn't even like, bad. For getting a job or something I'd read a guide on the desired personality for the hr dept cuz I don't care about them anyway. Its about the goal - getting that $ - not about the people evaluating me, who gives a shit if they know who I really am? But the goal with a relationship, i mean you do give a shit.. hopefully. Totally faking it just to make it says to me you don't care about them or yourself and it's just about the goal, which is what? A relationship you have modeled in your head? Some abstract 'duality' idea? What's the point?

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    Quote Originally Posted by hatesyardwork View Post
    SEE unfolds easier, that is true. because they are very outgoing. ESI don't approach until they decide to. They are the ones who keep a polite distance in social circles. They are hard to know. An unambiguous look of disdain is their calling card. When they like you or trust you they soften somewhat. It's a subtle but stark difference when they like you.
    I don't know if you are ILI or LIE, but good luck with an EP temperament partner, me as an EJ I have a hard time with close relationships with perceivers.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I don't know if you are ILI or LIE, but good luck with an EP temperament partner, me as an EJ I have a hard time with close relationships with perceivers.
    I hear you. I say unfolds easier with the SEE. not easier overall. If find they really push boundaries, but initial rapport is easy. LIE

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    Quote Originally Posted by ashlesha View Post
    I guess i don't see it as separate from true nature when self preservation instincts are as natural as anything. Some people are guarded, some people reflexively act tough, some people act cute to disarm others, whatever, it's a mask but it's natural enough to me if it's what comes naturally... essentially i think I don't disagree tho, I mean the process of getting closer to someone involves shedding those barriers.

    But I don't think it can be compared to adopting a persona you read about in a guide? Because that's extremely superficial. Meaning it's not reflexive behavior or anything. I mean it isn't even like, bad. For getting a job or something I'd read a guide on the desired personality for the hr dept cuz I don't care about them anyway. Its about the goal - getting that $ - not about the people evaluating me, who gives a shit if they know who I really am? But the goal with a relationship, i mean you do give a shit.. hopefully. Totally faking it just to make it says to me you don't care about them or yourself and it's just about the goal, which is what? A relationship you have modeled in your head? Some abstract 'duality' idea? What's the point?
    I like everything you have said. I think all the thread disagreements are over semantics and everyone having a different subjective definition of the terms.........duality, authenticity, walls, masks ,nature and natural etc. I was really just talking about fear of connecting and how that vulnerability forces us to sometimes adjust behavior in the moment when are dealing with uncertainty with the unknown in front of us. I then convoluted that with a florid language that can be left to different subjective definitions.
    Thread went off course because I made a point that made sense to ME and those who understood MY point with the language I used. Others find fault because of some difference of understanding with language that can have many different meanings. Clarity often is better than ambiguous verbosity. Not trying to be contentious.
    In fact the whole disagreement is a result of my challenging someone else's use of the word NATURAL. I made the mistake of challenging that poster's definition of NATURAL as he understood it and then I waxed poetic informing said person of the true meaning of the word as I understood. I often forget that language is often not so concise to assume we are all on the same page.

    I'll take socially uncalibrated for 500 Alex

    Apologies
    Last edited by hatesyardwork; 02-21-2018 at 08:26 AM. Reason: 1

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    what ashlesha said^

    my “advice” was really for everyone and for all of the functions they might use, because this “rule” applies to everyone. say you’re a Te and are a tank by default, it’s pointless to become smth else and smooth to attract someone, because then you’ll have attracted them to something you’re not. instead one should find the person that values tanks and that will allow them to be tanks. very simple.

    you can pretend not to be a tank in the initial stages of a relationship, we all lie at that point in some ways, but how long can you pretend not to be what you are? how long can you keep following the manual on how to behave, especially when relationships, and so emotions and feelings, are involved? we all do lie, in social occasions, in brief encounters, to make a good impression etc, but this won’t get you into any worthy relationship, as a romantic one is supposed to be.

    i understand well that when in trouble, or out of curiosity, or for wtv reason, we can look up on internet to see what strategies are best to be applied with someone. infact that’s how i discovered socionics (!) well, go figure, those relationships i looked advice for didnt last long! i knew everything, i knew how to treat them, what to say, how and when, but it wasnt natural of me to behave in a certain way, and most of the times i were applying those rules i felt like i was cheating, lol. the person i initially used these strategies with was my “activitor”, and so i even came to realize that my prior relationships were even with duals, and conflictors, for the patterns were as described. but had ive known what to say and how to treat them even prior of my discovery of socionics, it wouldnt have changed the fact that we were not meant for each others! IR or not. there’s more to relationships that no theory can grasp.

    so very simply it’s not automatic for 2 duals to be complementary, nor for other good IRs, because there are other factors at play that bring 2 people together. there’s chemistry, physical appearance, joint ideals, joint goals, and it’s not all… but duality helps, it’s a bonus.

    when i met my current ESI bf I was in a phase where i couldnt care less of socionics, but after a bit i made him take a MBTI test, then a socion one, and not once I looked at what he could have liked or not… i just simply couldnt care, because even if we are not duals/semi or from the same quadra, i feel like what we have is beyond all of this. and it works better than all ive ever experienced before. i still haven’t read any advice about him, shame on me I guess. but it worked without any tips.

    personal stories apart, and more to the functions, I agree that some people have a harder time to open up, or to feel cozy in intimate scenarios, and it’s true that taking the mask we all wear out is the most shattering experience we can go through, but that’s all love is about tbh, it literally demands you to get naked, but even not just literally.

    the “problem”, if there’s one, is that you can’t get really naked if you’re worried about impressing the other person, if you’re worrying about saying the right things, if you’re thinking about what you’ve read on the forum, if you’re basically… building up a net in which to make them fall. not considering that if you really like someone, all of your energy will naturally show up unconsciously, especially in the first stages, so all of this effort will just cause too much stress to be healthy.

    this doesn’t mean such techniques wouldn’t work, and perhaps you’ll achieve an amazing one night stand or even 2 and 3, but at some point you’ll have to drop the mask and then…as we say here “so’ cazzi tuoi”, ie. you better didn't do that, for logically the person might even not like your true self then.

    finally, let me be as banal as i started, before you came to Te around, hates, the truth lies within ; )

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    This thread has been so interesting, really. I would just like to say that there is no need to be fake or play games with an ESI. If there is attraction there, we will be interested in your advances. But it is good to build up a friendly rapport first because then we can determine we like you. Personally I have always fallen for interesting/entertaining/confidence over looks or sly games.

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    yeah notice what I said about Hamlet, trying to push him toward authenticity is not really for him, because fi just makes him neurotic and extinguishes his base function

    in the same way if you're SEI theoretically you should be most energetic creatively realizing yourself through Fe, which has a flexible case-by-case approach to ethics, which means authenticity is a kind of universal structure persisting in time (Fi base especially), that should not be your direct ideal rather it should flow as a byproduct of creative Fe. so on some level it should be achieved, but not sought after directly. in other words the most authentic relation will be the "ethical and emotional anarchy" of ILE, so you can continually creatively apply Fe. when that is happening a miraculous under the surface thing is happening which is Fi is taking root but unconsciously in both parties. it becomes a kind of authentic inauthenticity. in other words, its a kind of "sincere" acting

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    Female LIE and male ESI:

    OK, so I know this female LIE, 36 years old, been with an SEE (Activity) since she was 18 and has two kids with him but is not married to him. He was fun at first, but she expected him to settle down when they had kids, and he did not. Not at all, so she took the kids and left and is now a single mom, working her ass off and holding him at arm's length because he can still see the kids but isn't contributing to their support.
    Unfortunately for her, the more she pushes him away, the more she appears like an ILI and the more he tries to get in her face.

    I met her through work, and I talk to her about once a week, and since I'm obsessed with Socionics, I told her about duality. She instantly got it, because her boss is a female ESI. I told her she needs to find a male ESI, and she's amenable to the idea, but how?

    I told her she needs to recognize them. I told her Paul Newman, Bruce Springsteen, and she goes "Who are they?" FML.

    While we were talking, an ESI with tattoos who looked like Eminem on crack walked by. I said to her "Him." She goes "Ewww. Not him. He's not attractive at all."
    So I call up this video ( ) with an ESI singer in it and say "Look at the face. Can you see what all these guys have in common in their faces?"
    She studies the video and says "OK, I think I can see it. But before you pointed these guys out, I would never have looked at any of them twice. They look so boring. They don't look manly."
    "Well, what did I tell you? Extroverts tend to ignore their duals. Activity is so much more attractive. And you know how that turns out."
    She just looked at me.
    I said "They're manly enough. You have a very male personality. You know that. Our duals are more mixed. But they are sexual Aggressors, like your ex." And I smiled.
    She thought about that.
    "Let me see that video again."

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