The Role of the 3rd and 4th Functions

[Steve]

In each type, what is the role of the 3rd and 4th functions? How would a particular type with a developed 3rd or 4th function be different from a type with those functions undeveloped?

For example with the ENTp and ENFp, what role does Se, and Fi and Ti respectively play?

Or an ESTj with a developed Fe and Ni?

[Slava]

If they are more well rounded like that, they may be more passive about things as if they don't care any more. I think abused people can often appear to have no soul because they were forced to experienced their 3rd and 4th functions, so they are stuck pondering what if the value of their choices if either way is correct. Bullies and old people who act like obnoxious kids (ie. GW Bush) usually have not been forced by anyone around them to develope their 3rd and 4th, so they go through life not being corrected by people. There are cons and pros of both types of individuals however.

[Rick]

A well-developed 3rd or 4th function means that a person has built up enough conventions (or rules of thumb) in these areas that he does not feel lost in most standard situations involving lots of these types of information and knows that by following the rules of thumb he has gleaned from copying others he can get by fine and not seem out of place.

Someone with poorly developed 3rd and 4th functions feels more unsure of themselves and the situation and is more likely to misinterpret the situation and overreact or underreact.

Some examples of developing your 3rd function (4th is harder and pretty much always remains vulnerable) might be:
types who know lots of facts and can be very businesslike when the situation calls for it (especially by using lots of overtly business phrases)
types who can appear very collected and in charge of their life and their business if need be
types who are good at expressing sympathy and understanding (by using conventional phrases) and getting people to laugh and loosen up when necessary
types who are good at demostrating their awareness and understanding of the wider situation, not just the situation at hand

My introverted descriptions probably won't be as good...
types who are knowledgeable enough of various systems that they can explain what is correct or incorrect according to these systems and why
types who are able to suspend judgment and just listen understandingly when people need to express feelings like frustration and sadness
types who can show that they care for their health, quality of life, and appearance and can entertain discussions on the topic without slipping to abstractions and ideology
types who can talk calmly about the past and the future without getting upset or trying to claim that no one can know and therefore we shouldn't talk about it

[SLeo123083]

Slava, I agree with you completelty.

I've been kind of a textbook INFj for the last year or so, but if I get over my fear of I tend to have a much more relaxed aura about me, almost as if nothing can bother me or slow me down. I'm still not energetic, I just 'go with the flow' more.

I also notice that as I feel more confident in , my could possibly get worse without me noticing it (or really caring). Like for example before when I had tremendous support for my low , I would have the audacity to sleep in class. Because I was just really confident and didn't give a shit what other people thought of me or my 'relations' to them. I kinda miss that. But in a way, I don't, because it required a lot of energy and effort to get to that point and to also maintain it.

It also required a lot of people to support me and I as sure as hell didn't do it on my own. But I think that idealistically, a Buddha-like balance of your strengths and weaknesses is better than being really good in one area and horrible in another.

Balance can get too comfortable though, so I think reverting back to your natural personality is the best, though it's rare to find 100% support and challenge for that in the 'real world.' We're all forced to wear masks.

[Steve]

Some examples of developing your 3rd function (4th is harder and pretty much always remains vulnerable) might be:
types who know lots of facts and can be very businesslike when the situation calls for it (especially by using lots of overtly business phrases)

-I assume you mean here.

types who can appear very collected and in charge of their life and their business if need be
types who are good at expressing sympathy and understanding (by using conventional phrases) and getting people to laugh and loosen up when necessary
types who are good at demostrating their awareness and understanding of the wider situation, not just the situation at hand

My introverted descriptions probably won't be as good...
types who are knowledgeable enough of various systems that they can explain what is correct or incorrect according to these systems and why
types who are able to suspend judgment and just listen understandingly when people need to express feelings like frustration and sadness
types who can show that they care for their health, quality of life, and appearance and can entertain discussions on the topic without slipping to abstractions and ideology
types who can talk calmly about the past and the future without getting upset or trying to claim that no one can know and therefore we shouldn't talk about it

Those are pretty good descriptions, so for a dominant type, wouldn't what you described be showing more as opposed to as a 3rd function? Or maybe it is by showing an awareness of the current situation at hand (business) and being able to manage it through and .

[Rick]

No, what I meant for the types was the sense of being self-controlled, "with it," and in charge of their life (and their body), mobilized, serious, and ready to act. This is also the ability to stand up for one's interest readily and vocally. (it's possible I'm describing more the IEE variant)

[Steve]

No, what I meant for the types was the sense of being self-controlled, "with it," and in charge of their life (and their body), mobilized, serious, and ready to act. This is also the ability to stand up for one's interest readily and vocally. (it's possible I'm describing more the IEE variant)

That makes sense, so for an is being able to be grounded somewhat in the concrete world and not just in the abstract. Being somewhat "Down to Earth"

[Slava]

Here is my version, its a bit less practical but more low level.

- More aware of external forms than typical
- More aware of internal forms than typical
- More aware of internal dynamics than typical
- More aware of external dynamics than typical
- More aware of spatial relations (spatial dejavu) than typical
- More aware of temporal relations (temporal dejavu) than typical
- More aware of attraction/repulsion between objects/subjects than typical
(If you ever watch a person play with a pet, they seem to ignore its desires to get away and force affection)
- More aware of cause/effect between objects/subject than typical
( people have trouble seeing some disasterous consequences of their actions)

with developed will be more curious about internal form of objects, including their own capabilities and personality
with developed will be more curious about external forms of objects, including their own appearance with developed will be more curious about what is going on inside of a subject (ewww, jk)
with developed will be more curious about algorithms of objects aka external dynamics
...... you get the point.

Its funny how us humans fear these things... How someone can be afraid of accepting that they have an external form, or how someone is afraid to accept that their brain is the center of their mind. It's all a matter of where the consciousness is centered.

Ohh nooo i have a face! oh my god its so ugly!!! ahhh..... no wonder i refused to accept external forms! But wait... im also dumb... i refuse to accept that i have a brain... fuck... ill settle for the brain, i seem to be better with it than with my body, but since I have bad Fi, i'll just swap values depending who I'm around, if im around weaker people, I am deff for my body, if I'm around dumb people I'm for my brain, whatever makes me #1 at the moment. :wink: jk, thats not me, but it could be, depending who i'm around :wink: