I really appreciated that post, squark. thank you for talking about it.
I really appreciated that post, squark. thank you for talking about it.
I.... I get what it is saying. I see an over-generalization and I think it is far more depressing than what it needs to be.Originally Posted by lungs
There is nothing depressing in stating that a remedy for this form of exploitation exists, and that the means for its obtainment are ready within the self.
I find it depressing that the only choice is failure.
what would you consider victory?
It's like saying there is poison in the cup. Just don't drink it. Find another cuppa. That's not failure. It's survival.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
I've had to deal with this nonsense before with a co-worker or two. I agree with what Squark said in simply not dealing with them at all because if you try to over assert yourself, it will end up backfiring in some way. One should defend themselves of course, but try to keep contact minimal and congenial while not behaving in a reactive manner.
“We cannot change the cards we are dealt, just how we play the hand.” Randy Pausch
Ne-IEE
6w7 sp/sx
6w7-9w1-4w5
you're welcome.
Too bad your poor reading comprehension caused you to hallucinate that fixed outcome. Stating that a difficulty is complex doesn't make it intractable.
Victory means not having to avoid this behavior, but effectively explaining to others and showing them this act so we can remove it from society.
I apologize for attacking your post @squark . I wasn't trying to discount your idea just shed light on another and I did so in a very wrong way.
This'll be the last post I make in this thread.
The thing is that this is very real and it has happened to people. I hope you can see why what you said was offensive.
Ugh...
Sometimes, the person themselves does not perceive the information correctly thus communicating what they think or believe to be correct to you. And, in which case any number of things can go on, you can try to convince them otherwise, which they may or may not believe.
-
Dual type(as per tcaudilllg)
Enneagram 2w1sw(1w9) helps others to live up to their own standards of what a good person is and is very behind the scenes in the process.
Tritype 1-2-6 stacking sp/sx
I'm constantly looking to align the real with the ideal.I've been more oriented toward being overly idealistic by expecting the real to match the ideal. My thinking side is dominent. The result is that sometimes I can be overly impersonal or self-centered in my approach, not being understanding of others in the process and simply thinking "you should do this" or "everyone should follor this rule"..."regardless of how they feel or where they're coming from"which just isn't a good attitude to have. It is a way, though, to give oneself an artificial sense of self-justification. LSE
Best description of functions:
http://socionicsstudy.blogspot.com/2...functions.html
If you reeeeally want to publicly reveal a gaslighter you know: http://www.amazon.com/NightVision-Hi...+video+cameras
And I'm being serious. Not that I've ever purchased a bodycam, but taking footage at the right (or wrong) time has saved my ass in the past.
Though the most effective solution is to make gaslighting common knowledge.
You can PM me sometime if you want for personal stuff. The specifics are probably less helpful than the generalities, though, because people who spend their lives in a chess-match fashion and focus most of their energy on manipulation and snow jobs will not find any single way to do it. Better to not get hung up on what might or might not be an objective red flag and instead stick with your gut and pay attention to what is being done--and not what is being said.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
I suspect you've yet to test the susceptibility of these ne'er-do-wells to being impaled, or drowned in chains.
This is mostly for @felafel:
http://www.amazon.com/Gift-Fear-Gavi.../dp/0440226198
This book gives excellent specific examples of manipulative behavior so that people can learn to spot it. The focus is on avoiding violence, but ime the manipulative techniques are the same used by noncriminals.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
Never happened to me.
I used to argue a lot as a kid and I would be able to find clear contradictions between someone's actions in the past and their expressed intent. I remember constantly pointing out events in the past and people denying them -- this seems to me to be a form of gas lighting. A relatively common one, sometimes people either really don't remember, they kind of do but they block it out or don't know the facts, or they fucking know it like the back of their hand they just deny it like a shit-eating bastard.
Anyways I really don't obsess over manipulation as much as I try to develop strategies, counter-manipulate. That's more where my mentality is at now compared to when I was a kid.
Either way I think its also important to mention some forms of gas lighting may vary in intention. You have the compulsive manipulator with little conscience or empathy which is the most dangerous. The volitional manipulator who see themselves as the victim (someone fucked me over, I'm getting back at the world). The volitional manipulator differs from the compulsive in that he is merely acting out via an incident versus it being a pattern of behavior that is natural. The denying manipulator, who merely manipulates through their willful negligence (doesn't remember things because they don't want to fight or block it out). Then you have the idiot manipulator, who isn't trying to gas light but is so stupid, incompetent, or something similar and genuinely doesn't remember and therefore distorts your perception of reality.
I think the levels are important because a lot of the discussion with sociopaths and the like to me sounds very much like its overdramatized, and another way to pass moral judgment an label someone a bad apple or call them evil. I think some sociopathic behavior, if you define that as a lack of empathy... is extremely common in the average person. I also think that if managed properly its entirely no big deal, being merely devoid of empathy doesn't imply cruelty, although it makes it easier to do something cruel without feeling bad.
Impulsiveness is another huge element to the equation. Impulsive people may actually have empathy but may be quicker to act out their passion of frustration and the like without fulling considering the consequences it will bring emotionally.
I really think the big bad wolf in terms of this are the following
- Skillful public speaker and charismatic with people
- Impulsive and Reckless behavior and decision making
- Focus on the Short term
- Highly Narcissistic, Self-Absorbed, Believes themselves to be innately superior
- Compulsive patterns of Lying and Manipulation
I don't really gas light too much... but what CONFIMED said caught my interest.
This seems like something I've done unintentionally. For example someone says "I like this music" and someone else says, "No way that stuff sucks, this is the shit", plays something else. Isn't that a strictly personal preference, yet a relatively common occurrence. Are all critics, promoters and hipsters now immediately guilty of attempting to gas light the public's opinion? Can there even be a medium for expressing impressions or differing opinion?* When someone is denying or managing my basic perceptions of my own reality (for example, my likes and dislikes, which are strictly personal, or whether something that actually happened, happened), there is a problem.
I think there is a clear difference between a compulsive manipulator and one who influences someone through expressing an opinion or criticizing another person. Many times the line is very gray also as giving criticism is a huge interpersonal skill that can be very difficult to master.
This is another thing I take issue with. Like how does one pick up on a meta signal? Maybe the person isn't trying to manipulate you but is nervous and just trying to impress someone. I've seen this kind of behavior from both sexes when trying to impress a mate. They will try really hard to make themselves awesome to the point of being a little narcissistic, and really they are nervous. But many people learn from these mistakes and grow interpersonally. Once again socially awkward teenage guy trying to impress a girl =/= compulsive manipulator.* If the message I'm receiving is primarily meta- (i.e., it is mostly communicating something about how great or correct the sender is and not anything of substance), there is a problem.
Those two things I can sort of relate to, but not really, they seem awfully nebulous. Your talking from an area of experience though, so its understandable... but I'm using this as a measuring stick to see if I'm a sociopath, which is in a totally different realm than talking about people you've interacted with before that you think are manipulators.
Also what is the difference between welcome influence or inspiration and coercive manipulation. Lets say someone is selling an item -- what if one's expectations of a product are much higher than reality... is this the salesman's fault for overpromoting the item or is it your fault for buying something on a whim? Maybe the salesman isn't trying to rip you off but try as best as possible to explain the advantages and uses the product has to offer.
Is he altering your perception of reality? OR did you allow him to influence you without first remaining skeptical and critical? Should he be responsible for your decisions?
Is he engaging in self-promoting behavior by flaunting his own product as being awesome and not connecting with you emotionally?
At some level he is just a salesman and people are people, maybe his eagerness to sell you crap to get ahead is just life... maybe the psychologist that tries to sell you self-help is full of crap. What really is true and how can one determine the difference between actual harmony and an illusion created by a manipulator.
Seems very fuzzy to me when I really start to think about it.
Not trying to gaslight anyone... I just honestly have a lot of questions about this topic.
As long you put it this way, there is quite a few of them on this site.
Lol maybe they are the type that would gaslight or maybe I need to improve the list
Get diagnosed first, unless you can spot it in yourself and others with ease.
Hi Lucid,
I think that the component youre missing from the equation is relativity to the other. In other words, when one is close to another, theyre more willing to give more of themself and dissolve some of their barrier between self and other. This is where gaslighting becomes a danger.
What happened to your narcissistic scholar title, Jadae?
I forgot that this concept also deals with the idea of self-trust, which is what is required to be less susceptible to this sort of phenomenon, among other similar phenomenons.
People who gaslight often do actually say things like that, but they have a host of other manipulation games on top of it. You may find it too nice and barney ish but ppl with empathy are usually going to post their tastes a lot more diplomatically. If somebody really likes something and then somebody goes 'this sux' - the person who is degrading it isn't have much concern for the people who like it, but there are more components to this. I've talked to you before, and we were both able to state our personal preferences without gaslighting the other.For example someone says "I like this music" and someone else says, "No way that stuff sucks, this is the shit", plays something else. Isn't that a strictly personal preference, yet a relatively common occurrence.
"This sucks" isn't constructive criticism, it's a whiny teenage boy trying to gaslight because he was taught caring for others = weakness. What you talked about was a campy, juvenile form of gaslighting but was still gaslighting nonetheless. They aren't god. They aren't the king of anything, they don't have mystical power of 'what is cool' and 'what is lame' - yet they are talking as if they are, possibly making people think that they aren't cool for their own interests. If you have to ask yourself 'am I being too sensitive here?' you are dealing with a Gaslighter, even if they've learned how to do it for positive social gain. And yeah high schoolers/young adult females fall for that stuff because they view it as confidence. But they get pissy/angry/bored of it if he really doesn't change.I think there is a clear difference between a compulsive manipulator and one who influences someone through expressing an opinion or criticizing another person. Many times the line is very gray also as giving criticism is a huge interpersonal skill that can be very difficult to master.
They are still gaslighting but in that instance the female just stereotypically thinks they can change the bad boy to not gaslight. Or gaslight in more carebear ways. It works as a great hook - but not a lot of follow through.Maybe the person isn't trying to manipulate you but is nervous and just trying to impress someone. I've seen this kind of behavior from both sexes when trying to impress a mate. They will try really hard to make themselves awesome to the point of being a little narcissistic, and really they are nervous. But many people learn from these mistakes and grow interpersonally. Once again socially awkward teenage guy trying to impress a girl =/= compulsive manipulator.
There are acceptable and moral forms of gaslighting. Technically when you watch ANY television show or playing any video game- you are being gaslit - but you are a willing participant in your own manipulation. Like Jadae said, when you are being gaslight by those emotionally closest to that's when it becomes the biggest problem. If interpersonal relationships don't matter to you and you're all business- then I guess you wouldn't really care who is gaslighting, you would only pretend to care like Oprah and get a trillion dollars for it. (LMAO) If there was no such thing as gaslighting then ... nothing would exist, a little gaslighting isn't evil just like a 'little fat isn't all that unsexy' or something. Bad analogy but you get my drift.Also what is the difference between welcome influence or inspiration and coercive manipulation. Lets say someone is selling an item -- what if one's expectations of a product are much higher than reality... is this the salesman's fault for overpromoting the item or is it your fault for buying something on a whim? Maybe the salesman isn't trying to rip you off but try as best as possible to explain the advantages and uses the product has to offer.
Both. This is why ''Jewish Media" sounds awfully like the word MEDIUM - a happy , middle ground between good and evil. Or something greater than good and evil: Eternity. Like in my other example, people (especially women) like it when the good guys go bad, the bad guys go good- and nobody is sure of who is the good guy or not. Still some people are gaslit in their close homelife w/o wanting it or intending it, they don't know what it is so they are easy prey.Is he altering your perception of reality? OR did you allow him to influence you without first remaining skeptical and critical? Should he be responsible for your decisions?
Gut instincts. That deep animalistic part of your self that senses if you should trust somebody or not. But as humans we want to be deceived, we fantasize about others having qualities they do not really possess- but we wish they did. We glorify actors and actresses - the biggest gaslighters of them all. Not right or wrong just an observation.At some level he is just a salesman and people are people, maybe his eagerness to sell you crap to get ahead is just life... maybe the psychologist that tries to sell you self-help is full of crap. What really is true and how can one determine the difference between actual harmony and an illusion created by a manipulator.
Technically YOU ARE gaslighting people, your intentions are just playfully innocent, which is how I sense you with my blue collar empathy powers. And I'm 110% confident in my moral judgement of character because uhh idk. Maybe Fi is in my ego or maybe I just have a sub/martyr/angel complex. You sense these things not by logic or rationale but by gut instincts and empathy. But the reason you are gaslighting people is because you are asking the questions and not answering them. Get it? Those who ask the questions are always in a more favorable position than those answering them no matter what it looks like circumstantially. (But I'm a bottom and I don't mind you gaslighting me in this instance.) Understand? Oh this is interesting because this is also why authority are trained NEVER to answer any questions: A skilled gaslighter that really is a sadist abusive fuck can make even grown men cry.Not trying to gaslight anyone... I just honestly have a lot of questions about this topic.
You don't gaslight you just like to test boundaries a bit. But if you go too far you would turn into cartman from southpark with a narcissistic colonel sanders face and then be like "HAHA I REALLY WAS GASLIGHTING YOU ALL ALONG." That's because you are essentially operating from the Yes + No = Humor vantage point.
Last edited by Shazaam; 01-15-2013 at 07:13 AM.
Is self-trust reflective? Is it symmetrical?
Im really tired right now, but I dont know what/how you mean. Explain plz0rs? :[
I've noticed with many self words in psychology they are reflective.
Like say self-respect. This is respecting yourself. I've noticed that those that respect themselves are likely to understand the concept of respect better and thus show respect better to others. It's like a whole system in and of itself for respect.
Likewise I've noticed self-compassion and compassion are related. Those that treat themselves well treat others well usually. And by treat I don't mean a fatass eating a bunch of donuts, I mean someone who can appreciate themselves for their flaws and still love themselves and all that. Those types show more generosity, understanding and forgiveness to others transgressions. It's reflective.
Now take self-confidence. Those that are self-confident are more like to inspire confidence and assertiveness in those around them.
I was asking if self-trust is the same. Meaning people who have developed healthy attitudes towards trusting themselves and their own judgments have better machinery towards trust with others. They can discern when they are being manipulated by others and whether something is untrustworthy (as they can discern between reality and fantasy in their own psyche) and they can discern how to build trust in relations with others.
I've just noticed that reflectivity is part of a lot of psychology and bridges interpersonal and intrapersonal gaps and may be linked to mirror neurons in neurology.
I think the level of manipulation varies. Like you say people who gaslight often say stuff like that, but other things as well. See that to me sounds like a compulsive manipulator, someone who is caught into an entire pattern of behavior. I'd say manipulation among people is very common and sometimes unintentional, but for most empathetic people its not a compulsive pattern of behavior, because they will not attempt to reinforce such behavior and develop habits.
I like what you said about empathetic people expressing their tastes more diplomatically but still sometimes if someone tells me a song sucks, while it I guess is technically a mild form of gaslighting... to me it can sometimes be playful in spirit. Sometimes its frustrating to me when people are being too diplomatic and there is a certain rush to being around those that just act or do and ask for forgiveness later when they fuck up.
I mean a lot of times being too diplomatic can be frustrating, and empathy can seem like a burden. Empathy sometimes just feels like walking around with a ball and chain of guilt and conscience with little or no payoff, in fact it can be so crippling that it makes someone ineffective and weak and incapable of action and so depressed they can hardly be of utility or use. It's good but at a certain level I think people need some kind of release to the guilt, people need to feel free and able to move and act and breath. If there are manipulators out there taking advantage of people, what good does it do all the innocent empathetic people to be hidden away in some closet beating themselves up with guilt over a small transgression when there are much worse transgressions being done. If those people found the strength to forgive themselves, they could easily get over that burden, make a constructive change and jump back into the arena. In fact skilled manipulators love to use guilt to break the spirits of well meaning empathetic people and keep them trapped. This is what I struggle with the most. I like to forgive myself a lot and I try to forgive others but I feel like sometimes I'm too easy on myself and other people, and this leads to me becoming corrupt or opening myself up to being manipulated. I mean at a certain level no one is perfect, perfect is an unobtainable goal, but if one strives towards it and fails to make the goal, they still arrive at somewhere better than they were before. This is how I see empathy and manipulation in the grand scheme. If one strives to be a good empathetic loving person and redeem their past transgressions against others, they may not end up being a completely good person or morally perfect, but they will still arrive at a place where they can feel content because they tried and are part of a much larger process to improving the "karma" out there if you will. This is really in all honesty all that I see, striving for trust and harmony, but manipulation is still everywhere and I have no illusions that tomorrow I'll wake up to some utopia.
This stuff is amazingly common, at my previous work people would talk all the time and socialize and spend loads of time arguing about what the best ____ was. I saw it mostly as playful, although I really didn't care that much to participate. For example one person would say ____ has the best pizza, and someone would say I like _____, someone else responds "that pizza is awful I never eat there". Sure its gaslighting but its such a small and typical thing I think it almost deserves a separate category from the psychotic sociopath boyfriend who is controlling, possessive, and the like."This sucks" isn't constructive criticism, it's a whiny teenage boy trying to gaslight because he was taught caring for others = weakness. What you talked about was a campy, juvenile form of gaslighting but was still gaslighting nonetheless. They aren't god. They aren't the king of anything, they don't have mystical power of 'what is cool' and 'what is lame' - yet they are talking as if they are, possibly making people think that they aren't cool for their own interests.
I guess but maybe someone is being too sensitive? If that's not a valid question then that means any accusations one makes against another for being whiny is gaslighting. I think if the underlying motivation is constructive and diplomatic criticism than something like saying someone is whiny is valuable. I think if the underlying motivation is control and dominance, getting the victim to stop crying so the abuse can continue..... then yea its shitty. This is partly what I'm talking about though... both situations entail influence. But the first can be viewed as convergent, constructive, and positive socially whilst the other is predatorial, parasitic, and destructive to one person's identity and sense of self.If you have to ask yourself 'am I being too sensitive here?' you are dealing with a Gaslighter, even if they've learned how to do it for positive social gain. And yeah high schoolers/young adult females fall for that stuff because they view it as confidence. But they get pissy/angry/bored of it if he really doesn't change.
Yea in BulletsAndDovesian language this is media/hollywood jew form of gaslighting.There are acceptable and moral forms of gaslighting. Technically when you watch ANY television show or playing any video game- you are being gaslit - but you are a willing participant in your own manipulation.
Yea that's my point. Although I think in close relationships I think things work through understanding other people's psychology and boundaries, and every person is a little different to harmonize with. I definitely wouldn't argue gaslighting doesn't exist -- what I would express though is that many times accusations of this sort can seem aggressive sometimes. I dislike how people make hardline judgments about others "THIS GUY IS A SOCIOPATH"... "THIS GUY IS NOT A SOCIOPATH". I think its more fluid and complex than that... I'll admit that some things I do are sociopathic, and sometimes that's solely because I'm only human and I just get burnt out on empathy and I get to the point where I'll be like "I don't give a shit"... I just won't have enough energy to give a shit.Like Jadae said, when you are being gaslight by those emotionally closest to that's when it becomes the biggest problem. If interpersonal relationships don't matter to you and you're all business- then I guess you wouldn't really care who is gaslighting, you would only pretend to care like Oprah and get a trillion dollars for it. (LMAO) If there was no such thing as gaslighting then ... nothing would exist, a little gaslighting isn't evil just like a 'little fat isn't all that unsexy' or something. Bad analogy but you get my drift.
Yea but instincts can be wrong. I agree about the deception, but at a certain level manipulation I think is just part of social interaction and most of the time its so small or easily countered that its not really a major problem. I think a large problem results from those with habit patterns that have formed towards compulsive manipulation and a lack of empathy (seeing people as objects for their use).Gut instincts. That deep animalistic part of your self that senses if you should trust somebody or not. But as humans we want to be deceived, we fantasize about others having qualities they do not really possess- but we wish they did. We glorify actors and actresses - the biggest gaslighters of them all. Not right or wrong just an observation.
Yea which is why I am saying I am not trying to gaslight anyone... my goal is knowledge and discussion not manipulating anyone to get something out of it. My curiosity is more founded in my own self-interest (reconciling guilt of manipulating and fear of being manipulated) than it is in weighing judgement on other people's relationships.Technically YOU ARE gaslighting people, your intentions are just playfully innocent, which is how I sense you with my blue collar empathy powers. And I'm 110% confident in my moral judgement of character because uhh idk. Maybe Fi is in my ego or maybe I just have a sub/martyr/angel complex. You sense these things not by logic or rationale but by gut instincts and empathy. But the reason you are gaslighting people is because you are asking the questions and not answering them. Get it? Those who ask the questions are always in a more favorable position than those answering them no matter what it looks like circumstantially. (But I'm a bottom and I don't mind you gaslighting me in this instance.) Understand? Oh this is interesting because this is also why authority are trained NEVER to answer any questions: A skilled gaslighter that really is a sadist abusive fuck can make even grown men cry.
You don't gaslight you just like to test boundaries a bit. But if you go too far you would turn into cartman from southpark with a narcissistic colonel sanders face and then be like "HAHA I REALLY WAS GASLIGHTING YOU ALL ALONG." That's because you are essentially operating from the Yes + No = Humor vantage point.
Also yea I do go too far, but I'm from a background online of playing online games. There trolling and being an asshole is very socially accepted as its part of the fun and competition. When playing online games everything is a game and that mentality is refreshing sometimes honestly, but not a good way to view life sometimes (mainly thinking from the sociopathic game player vantage point here).
Yeah, but like I said, in my experience people who are abusive for real do both kinds. Many times it's something they are doing to chip away at people's defenses so they can further abuse them. Sometimes when people are abused themselves- they will look for any target they can to take their frustrations out on. It could be a hook to test how often that person would fight back and fight for their own perceptions. ((this is actually how my sexual molester molested me lol)) A person who is a skilled offender is going to look for any holes of weakness they can to slip through and abuse somebody with. If they would just do the milder forms of gaslighting then no, I really wouldn't care. That really would be like a lame gay angel thinking he can save everybody. But they go hand in hand. It just helps to understand that any shred of empathy you have is going to be manipulated by some people.Sure its gaslighting but its such a small and typical thing I think it almost deserves a separate category from the psychotic sociopath boyfriend who is controlling, possessive, and the like.
Yeah I mean everybody's identity is Gaslighting the world - just by existing and having our own likes/dislikes we are trying to gaslight people to think the way we do, because when those things happen - it's loveable and sweet. But gaslighting somebody to make a lot of money for yourself or the intention to win them over in a romantic relationship (impressing a girl) is miles beyond gaslighting somebody to make them weak to things like rape and completely make them your puppet without a will of their own. There's a thin line between confident and creepy, I think that's sorta what you're getting at.When playing online games everything is a game and that mentality is refreshing sometimes honestly, but not a good way to view life sometimes (mainly thinking from the sociopathic game player vantage point here).
I view Jew Power as kind of half-gaslighting. Because you could make tons of money via gaslighting but then use that money to empower for charity to empower weak people or you could use that money to further develop your own sadism. To make money even in the first place requires you to give up your angelic wings and to become a lot more tougher and assertive. But then how you use your money is what you should really be judged on, not that you make a lot of money in the first place- that could lead to thinking that 'all rich people are evil.' It does get complicated gray like you said, with one day somebody deciding to be nice and not gaslight and the other gaslight tons for as much power as they want. It relates to what we were talking before about celebrity being a crazy tidal wave.
Yea I agree and understand ya... I think I don't really experience this much because I'm kind of defensive and isolated. People that grate on me too much I tend to hide from, but like a ninja I tend to observe a lot and people watch =p. Well not creepy like a ninja but you get what I mean.
lol it's okay. You're not really an abusive person, no offense but you just don't have it in you or something. Don't worry you're still a man to me not just an abusive one... *awkward disney bonding moment*
Er I think this is gendered too much. I know A LOT of women who gaslight just as bad as men really.
and yeah I am personally obsessed with gaslighting, so no worries.
From reading the gaslight description on wikipedia my sister totally used to do that stuff when I was a kid.
She had me convinced I was a lesbian who could hear voices. (she'd stand outside my door and whisper). what a bitch. but looking back it was actually pretty funny. I was gullible. But even then I do not trust anything that comes out of her mouth. I never allow myself to rely on her because I know she will have an excuse for everything and turns the tables constantly over something minor or something that is entirely her fault. I've given up.
I also think that a few forum members display this from time and time. I keep my distance because there is no rationalizing with them and they will make everything out to being someone else's fault. crafty.
: " false information is presented with the intent of making a victim doubt his or her own memory, perception and sanity.[1] Instances may range simply from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents ever occurred, up to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim." (let's just not use the word victim and instead replace it with observer).
I don't think you've described gaslighting here. It's strictly a matter of parsing personal preferences, more or less as you said yourself. Between friends, just saying, ugh, that stuff sucks, could be funny, not a big deal. My personal least favorite way for someone to diss my preferences is more like this:
Other person: "Have you heard So-and-So's new album? It's really great, isn't it?"
Me person (noncommitally): "Yeah, it is good."
Other person: "What do you mean? It's better than good, it's great."
Me person: "It's really well done, but it's not really a style of music I enjoy."
Other person: "You don't know what you're talking about."
Here's another example of something that bugs me:
Me person plays album in car. Other person says, with a tone of condescending surprise, "Wow, this music is not half bad. You picked something pretty good for once."
I'm not saying either of the above is gaslighting. It's just stuff I don't like. If someone doesn't like the same music I do, personally I am apt to ask them, "What do you like?" Maybe I will find some overlap in our tastes or learn about something new that I hadn't before.
If someone is manipulative, controlling, whatever, little things can add up and contribute to the big picture, but little things in themselves are not likely to be that problematic.I think there is a clear difference between a compulsive manipulator and one who influences someone through expressing an opinion or criticizing another person. Many times the line is very gray also as giving criticism is a huge interpersonal skill that can be very difficult to master.
I think you got the gist of it again in your own statements. Meta signals are often about narcissism. And by narcissism, I don't mean youthful self-centeredness that attenuates with time, but a problem that is apt to worsen as the person grows older.This is another thing I take issue with. Like how does one pick up on a meta signal? Maybe the person isn't trying to manipulate you but is nervous and just trying to impress someone. I've seen this kind of behavior from both sexes when trying to impress a mate. They will try really hard to make themselves awesome to the point of being a little narcissistic, and really they are nervous. But many people learn from these mistakes and grow interpersonally. Once again socially awkward teenage guy trying to impress a girl =/= compulsive manipulator.
I seriously doubt you are a sociopath. If this were a socionics forum, I'd say ugh, Fi polr. I've chatted with you, you listen and say self-revealing things, there is a "there there." Sometimes you say fractious or callous things, but it's rare, and that is not sociopathy.Those two things I can sort of relate to, but not really, they seem awfully nebulous. Your talking from an area of experience though, so its understandable... but I'm using this as a measuring stick to see if I'm a sociopath, which is in a totally different realm than talking about people you've interacted with before that you think are manipulators.
The salesman is a salesman, and someone buying something from a salesman should surely know the person is trying to make a sale, that's his job. A consumer should get informed and whatnot.Also what is the difference between welcome influence or inspiration and coercive manipulation. Lets say someone is selling an item -- what if one's expectations of a product are much higher than reality... is this the salesman's fault for overpromoting the item or is it your fault for buying something on a whim? Maybe the salesman isn't trying to rip you off but try as best as possible to explain the advantages and uses the product has to offer.
Is he altering your perception of reality? OR did you allow him to influence you without first remaining skeptical and critical? Should he be responsible for your decisions?
Is he engaging in self-promoting behavior by flaunting his own product as being awesome and not connecting with you emotionally?
At some level he is just a salesman and people are people, maybe his eagerness to sell you crap to get ahead is just life... maybe the psychologist that tries to sell you self-help is full of crap. What really is true and how can one determine the difference between actual harmony and an illusion created by a manipulator.
Seems very fuzzy to me when I really start to think about it.
Nothing you wrote sounds anything like gaslighting. I've never noticed you engaging in any sociopathic-style or gaslighting behaviors on this forum.Not trying to gaslight anyone... I just honestly have a lot of questions about this topic.
Last edited by golden; 01-16-2013 at 07:22 PM.
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
http://www.waking-you-up.com/the-psy...x-addicts.html
Am I doing it wrong?
haha. i suppose as long as they were able to establish a dynamic in which they could both personally benefit in some way it would be great? i dunno.
Yea thanks for the replies, I'm pretty sure I'm not a sociopath, but I do enjoy schadenfreude to no end even if its a little sociopathic (I'm only human). I mean I really milk it, its especially sweet when its the asshat you don't like... I mean I laugh like pavarotti sings, full bodied and from the gut with gusto http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RdTBml4oOZ8. I mean at 2:40 that's like me being like "HAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA" at someone else's misfortune.
That's really the worst I got, being honest here, but really it can be fun to be around those types... I'll bite the bullet and get laughed at if I fuck up. It's not there fault for finding the humor in it, it's my fault for fucking it up.
But um... yea manipulators I knew an SLE which was very manipulative. Still I feel like this is child's play and I've never come across a real manipulator that weaves intricate webs of lies. I'd like to punch a hole in one of there webs in the courtroom samuel l jackson style (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMGMZsKXz94) and go out to the song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KCA-edcGsO4
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